Well, I haven't kept up my threads too well so it's time for an update.<p>Not long ago (maybe 2 weeks) I was ready for divorce. I was, that is, rather angry with my W and tired of the bad treatment I was getting. Now I'm headed back for plan a. Why?<p>Well, probably the first thing that happened was that I had resolved to spend a couple days praying about it - but became angry and just wanted to have it over with. But... I ran across a post by GnomeDePlume - who hadn't been on in about a month (used to post every day), and was reminded of his point of view - which I used to share. <p>Basicly it comes down to Marriage Vows. (capitalized).<p>I wrote my own vows - with W's involvment, of course, but mostly it was my work. She agreed to them - said they were very special (before the marriage), but not long ago described them as "a bunch of pompous nonsense". But... I meant them. That is the crux of the matter. If I take my vows seriously, I cannot divorce my wife. Now, I know this might be an unpopular view. I was discussing it with my best old friend who is in town to see his folks for T-giving. He didn't exactly agree, but couldn't say where I was wrong.<p>You see, I believe that each person makes their vows independently. The vows are not conditional. You cannot have a reasonable marriage while saying "I'm going to wait for him/her to make good on the vows and then I will do it." Each must stick to the vows even if the other does not.<p>I don't know if I made it clear why I feel this is necessary, so I'll use this illustration. <p>Suppose two guys wanted to move a sofa. Each one, however is an independent person. There is no central brain controlling and coordinating their arms, legs and backs. Each one has to assume that the other is going to do his part. If each one waits for the other to lift, the sofa will never move. Each must lift under the assumption that the other will do so also. Of course, they must communicate. They might say "one, two, three, LIFT". One of them can't just pick up his end and start up the stairs. It won't work. Maybe the other guy will see what is happening and follow, but it is much better to agree in advance on what the path of motion will be etc. OK, enough with the metaphors. My W HATES my metaphors. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Now, my W (then fiance) had a lot of insecurities about the possibility of abandonement. This was related to the fact that she was adopted as a child and always feared "being sent back." So, I made the vows really strong on that point. Also, she is an immigrant so I put in something that applied to that too. I'll explain in full below (if anybody asks).<p>So... I wrote my marriage vows like this - and I am repeating them from memory almost 3 years after the wedding.<p>"I take these vows unconditionally and irrevocably.<p>I, AD, take you, W, to be my wedded wife.
To have and to hold from this day forward,
for better, for worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness as in health,
to love and to cherish, as a gift from the hand of God, and a sacred stewardship for which I am accountable to God. <p>I commit my life to you above every other earthly obligation, duty or interest;
Above country, family or friend,
above property, work, pleasure or comfort.<p>I will never abandon nor forsake you, as long as we both shall live."<p>Also as part of the ceremony we recited these lines (part of the pastor's standard package to which we agreed) "With this ring, I thee wed, and with all my earthly possesions, I thee endow".<p>I didn't like the "thee" stuff, not being a fan of old English, but I didn't want to annoy the pastor fiddling with everything.<p>OK, so if I take my vows seriously.<p>1) They are unconditional. It doesn't matter what my W does.
2) ... and irrevokable. (I really did have that in there).
3) I can neither "abandon" nor "forsake" her. (that includes divorce for sure).
4) and since I said so, it doesn't matter if I am comfortable with that or find any pleasure in it.
5) I gave her all my stuff (including the house which even she doesn't think she has a right to.)<p>Now, I had read HN/HN BEFORE I wrote this, and it influenced me somewhat. Of coure, I did not anticipate that my W would do what she has done. But, the whole point of unconditional commitment is that you never know the future and what conditions might arise.<p>Now Harleys say unconditional love is a bad thing. I'm not entirely sure I agree, but I'm sure that I do not agree with the anyone who says the vows don't matter. I remember these word for word. I have a copy in my wallet. I could give you an hour's speech on the meaning and purpose of every word and clause (if you ask).<p>Strangely, my W doesn't like principles, commitments etc. She doesn't like the idea that I would stay with her because of a principle or simply because I committed to stay with her. I think I halfway understand why, but still I am surpised by that point of view. What then, is the meaning of commitment?<p>So, thinking about my vows, after my anger died down a little I came back to my former position. If she wants a divorce, she's going to have to divorce me. I'm not going to file.<p>Well, I had in mind to put more into this "update", but I'm getting really tired and it's half-past three and I'm supposed to meet a friend for lunch in about 7 1/2 hours - so I'd better get to bed.<p>I'll make a very quick commentary on my Thanksgiving day. W had agreed to come. I was to cook turkey. I had suggested she come around 10am. She called shortly before 10 and I told her that I was behind in straightening-up the dining room, and maybe it would be better if she came at noon. We didn't plan to eat until at least 4pm (turned out to be after 5). So, about noon I tried to call and her phone was busy - for a long time - probably talking to OM. She drove up after 1. She was wearing a long black skirt and a nice sweater. She hasn't worn a skirt this year (maybe to church, but I don't think so, she said not). She decided to help cook, so she changed clothes. Now (at 3:40am) I'm thinking "did she dress just to drive to my house, or was there another reason - somewhere she went before coming here". Well, I'll leave that aside.<p>The baby fell asleep and AMAZINGLY slept for almost 2 hours as a nap. So, we cooked together and things were OK. At one point I put my hand on her back and she pulled away saying "why are you touching me?" Ok, sorry. Hey, a guy's got to test the waters sometimes. Anyway, things went well. My brother came, her nephew (19) got out of bed (at 5:30pm) and we ate turkey etc. Baby was perfect, W was pleasant, brother was tolerable. All good, nephew went back to his computer game. Brother had his coffee and went home.<p>W and I stayed and played with baby for awhile - laying on the floor in the living room. We remeniscied about last T-giving - when baby was only one week old - about the pregnency - and she let me rub her belly at this point - pointing out where the baby's head was etc. No complaints from her, but I didn't push it. She nursed the baby in front of me (as always). Fairly normal except that she asked me again to go to the lawyer soon - said she wanted to make sure that I knew what I could get on child custody and visitation. Other than that, it felt just like she lived here - except that I wasn't afraid that she would go off into a rage.<p>Well, time came for her to go. I was saying goodbyes - tried to get a hug (actually asked). She started to say something like "why are you bothering me", but stopped and said "OK", and gave me a little hug. Not so good, but better than nothing. I walked her out to the car. She said she was afraid she might run out of gas and the stations were closed. I thought the one near the house was open. She didn't have money or credit cards (I have left her with only $50 until the beginning of the month - but I should have written about that already - ask and I will). So, I said I would ride with her to the gas station and fill up her car on my credit card. We drove there. Hey I don't know what it is in your town but $1.03 for regular unleaded! Amazing! We bought super premium (93 octain) for $1.15 (I know that has nothing to do with marriage building, but since I'm already writing a book here, I thought I'd throw it in). So, I pumped her gas - then I remembered that one of her tires was low. I told her that this station didn't have air, but if she wanted to drive a mile down the road the other one did and I would take care of it for her if she was willing to bring me back home. She asked "and if I'm not willing to bring you back home?" I replied "That would be even better." (assuming she meant that she might take me home with her). Ok, this is getting long... second station, the air didn't work, 3rd, 4th stations had no air - finally 5th station had coin op air that worked. Now, one thing about my W that I should explain at this point: Usually, she is very impatient. If something doesn't work on the first try, she is annoyed. If it doesn't work on the third try, she is enraged - especially if I have anything to do with it. But, this time, she was perfectly calm. Didn't mind driving a tour of the nearby gas stations. I aired up all her tires. When I got in the car, she gave me a hug and said something to the effect that it really made her feel taken care of that I filled up her car and put air in the tires. That hug was genuine and was worth the whole day's effort. She brought me back to the house, I asked her to wait so I could clean her windshield - and came back put anti-fog stuff on the inside (she was having trouble seeing). She thanked me again and drove away.<p>Details (mercifully) have been left out, but some of them are important. If anybody comments on this thread, look out, I might say even more about all this. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for reading, and happy Thanksgiving to you all!<p>-AD

Hi AD,<p>Well you have probably gone to bed by now (and well you should have!) but I just thought I would let you know I am keeping up with your story, and it seems like you have the patience of a saint!<p>You really are GOOD at Plan A, but I am a little afraid that you are bordering on the doormat version. It might be a good idea for you to set some boundaries here, in order to show your wife you aren't at her beck and call for every little thing....you will argue that the gas station stuff was worth it, and maybe it was. And I think it is amazing she did not lose her patience, or you for that matter.<p>Take care of yourself AD and make sure you aren't doing TOO much for her...she has to miss you too, ya know!<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

I follow your story to ad, so am here to listen too. Don't know if you were looking for anything in particular, but it sounded like you were open to reply re vows as ypu (amd we all I guess) try to figure out what life is about, and what to do about it, in the aspect of marriage. But first a ws perspective your wife behaviour. I don't know her of course, so when I respond each of you have to assess whether my ws perspective applies to your ws. I do think people are a lot more similar than they are different, we don't really have 4 billion psychologies, I think we have maybe 1/2 dozen at most, and maybe can divide motivation and behaviour as a result of those psychologies into 10-15 scenarios. SO IMO it is very useful for boards like this to exist, so we can peer abit into each others minds without the difficulties of social posturing, or being married to each other....get the real deal so to speak.<p>One of the ws scenarios is we do not hate, or even dislike the bs, in fact may very well care about them alot. Especially if there is history and children. The problem is, none of this has to do with being in-love with you. Right now, many who read that sentence are shaking their head, and saying something like same old foggy crap, snl has just not woke up yet. Love is a decision, marriage is work, you just do it. As you know ad, I think in-love is more than that, vastly more than that....but I won't hijack your thread to go there. WS who (for whatever reason) decide they just do not want to be married anymore, but who themselves also are not bad evil people (obsessive, addictive, abusive etc.), find themselves in an emotional pressure cooker (as is the bs) as they try to disconnect from the bs in as caring a way as possible. Part of that disconnection is waffling, partly due to the stakes involved (no one can read the future and know with certainty what to do, be it leaveing or staying), and partly due to the genuine ws feelings not to want to hurt the bs. The harder the bs is to get along with (lots of LB) the easier it is to disconnect, if they instead they are tolerant, make changes, don't LB much, it makes us want to be nice to them, be helpful, give emotionally....<p>BUT that has nothing to do with the core issue, that we do not want to spend the rest of our life married to you. Unfortuneately the bs oft times views these caring responses as meaning something more, we know that (and the additional hurt it will cause) so we resist doing stuff (like hugs, and affection, and letting you do stuff for us..acting like a couple..... and hanging out with you.... etc.)...now I don't mean we sit around thinking about this, and this is all conscious choice...no no no. What I am doing here is analyzing why ws seem to be confused, or waffling, or nice one day, and not the next...there is a war going on inside us, at a primal level.... a war between truly wanting to do right by you, be fair, caring, not deliberately hurt you, but still be true to ourselves and live out life the way we feel we must. We are also afraid after finding the courage to leave, we will be sucked back in to the relationship, and maybe never get away.<p>It would be so much easier if the bs would just kick us out, everyone take a breather until emotions settle down, then act like adults and get along fine as ex-spouses (accept reality without rancor) while everyone goes on with their lives as they want (assuming people are fair about finances, kids, and such). But that is not what happens, bs make this a momnumnetal deal, and any ws with a shred of decency is pulled into a malestorm of counselling, guilt (you are destroying me etc. etc.), manipulation as the bs tries to convince the ws any way they can not to leave, all in an effort to bind the ws to them. No one really cares much about us as people, who we really are, what we really want, and few bs really contemplate whether they are the best spouse for their ws....no mostly the bs wants what they want, and that is us. But what is even worse, when challenged on this, the bs will usually say of course the ws shouldn't stay if they really don't want too, so not only are we pressured to restore the marriage, we have to pretend it is ok, bury any doubts we have that this is really how we want to live our lives (with you in intimacy)...this is why there are so many false and failed recoveries. We are just people, if the bs does a good job, and the social/psychological pressures are applied right, many a ws will cave and stay, it is so hard to leave you. <p>We have to overcome normal human fear of change (even if we want the change), our own self-esteem (maybe no one else will love us, the bs does a good job of attacking that usually, pointing out all our faults, and why no one but they would really love us), concerns of over finances (cause bs will try to wreak financial revenge), fear over kids (cause bs will use them against us, or deny us access), social stigma cause the bs will tell everyone what a jerk we were, and how it was not something they agreed with (divorce), and the emotional trauma we have to accept in "hurting you" as the bs make it clear we are the bad guy, and "doing" this to them....<p>We all know how this goes, we see it the guts of ws and bs spilled acrss MB cyber space everyday, as what should be an enthusiastic choice by TWO people (marriage and remaining married) gets turned into a war of me me me (bs wanting to bind the ws, and the ws wanting to abandon the bs), rarely do we see a good faith effort by bs/ws to sit down, poja staying married, do some feildwork (to see if anything can be fixed or change), and if they divorce (as they must if both are not enthusiastic) remain friends and supportive of each other. I still don't get how so many bs say they love their ws, but will hate them (and not be friends) if they leave, that is so transparently hypocritical, and belies the so-called love....<p>what you really want is the picture, the happy face family, and having your needs met, you really don't care at all about the ws, you only care about what we do for you, how we make your life the way you want it to be. And you are ticked off that life is not going according to plan, so you are angry at us (cause we promised doncha know). (not saying many ws are any different, don't care about the bs, just what you do for them, and dump you as soon as something better comes along, unfortuneately there are lots of very selfish people, married and single).<p>So what is my point? Just this, don't read anything into your ws, she was probably just being nice to you cause you were not leaning on her, cause she wants you to be happy, and not unhappy. The day was not too threatening to her so she could loosen up, whether you reconcille or divorce, she does not dislike you, wants to remain friends, and will value your marital past. You made her safe enough to feel she could be a little nicer, and meet your needs a littlebit. That is what plan a is about. What happens too often, is the bs draws hope from this and runs with it, the ws feels pressured again, and pulls away. If you do plan a right, that won't happen, and if MB stuff kicks in for you, she will gradually return ON HER OWN. But it is just as likely she will still not want to be married (content to be friends, and leave with your goodwill/blessing), instead if you drop the plan a, and become distant and meanspirited you have just validated you only care about you, and that is what most bs do. <p>I have read literally hundreds of stories here, and I have only seen one person get it right (as in get to the emotional place one needs to be) and that is bramble rose. She finally realized what this is all about, and gave up her H without hating him, trashing him, or manipulating him.... truly wanting him to be happy with or without her... (I hope I got the name and details right, I get confused sometimes who is who). Mostly the stories are about bs who refuse to give up ws, and assume the marriage must go on no matter what, and if it does not is just cause the ws is a jerk (which could be true of course) and how could they not possibly realize how wonderful the bs is and how they must be the one for them. This cause all kinds of toxic interactions between ws and bs as each fights for their identity, and their needs, and is not particularly conducive to marital restoration or good mental health. Many people end up with a reluctant ws coming back, to a ho hum (at best cohabitation), only to wander again, (or the bs wanders later), or live a married but singles lifestyle constantly trying to convince themselves (ws and bs) they are happy, when what they really need is to realize they can never be anything but friends (maybe even good friends) but not intimate mates. We (society) place too much pressure on people re marriage. I think if we educated our young a lot better in human (and marital) relations, and made divorce (but with consequences..financial etc.) easier (after suitable conselling) and more acceptable, we would have a saner healthier world. <p>It disturbs me to the core of my being reading here what some people call love, and marriage, how they singlemindely don't care who they are married too, that the marriage is everything, that they love someone just cause they are married to them, that the mental/emotional health of the bs and ws is irrelevant. That if a ws does not want to be married they must just be in fog, or a jerk, or insane, that it could not possibly be cause they just feel (correctly) they do not fit you as a bs....and that if the bs just works on em enough, reprograms em, they can reel em back in....somehow that frightens me beyond words.... because it can work out that way.... when it should not, as a ws loses the courtage to take control of their life..... in-love should always be a completely free, unfettered, uncoerced (in any way), mutual choosing of two people for each other, who want nothing more in life than to wake up each day in their lovers arms....if it is not that, it should end, or be recognized for the dutiful contract to cohabitate that it is (and all that that implies).<p>No one (except the 2 paries) can say whether a marriage can "work", but I think we can say, that reconcillation efforst that are advesaritally based are much more likely to fail (as they should it would seem...right?). IMO the proper way to approach an affair as the the bs, is plan a, (but firmly and with boundaries))... a game plan for YOU and your self-introspection/changes....that leades inexorably to plan b (if ws does not do their work), and ends after approppriarte time (no more than a year) in a divorce....there is little sane reason for living in intimate limbo indefinitely. By proceeding this way (and being respectful, cooperative, and emotionally honest with ws) one brings order to their life, is not being jerked around by the ws, and finds the "real" truth about themself, their spouse, and the marriage. IMO in many cases the bs should discover they really don't want to be married to the ws, and not take them back (as evidenced by the many stories here about bs who have spent better part of their lives in dysfunctional marriages, often even accepting multiple affairs), that they do take them back says more about the dependentcy/controlling issues of the bs, who probably should not be married to anyone. In any event, it is unlikely anytime soon people will change any of this. Nor do I think we ws sit down and do all this conciously either, but based on my experience as a ws, and who I am, and my w is, and reflecting back quite a bit, this is some of what I think is essentially driving the ws and ws/bs interactions. It may seem strange, but IMO the best way to find the truths about a bs and ws is to apply MB principles without coercion, or alot of emotional manipulation, to the degree that works, one finds out the emtional truths... if needs aren't getting met, or their is not much enthusiasm, I think that is reflective of how well people fit, and whether they "want" to be passionate about each other (not talking sex here). If all it is is mutual respect and caring, and sharing of life for convienience, why be married at all? Can do that with anyone, even just be friends....but it that is enough for both, great, do it....but if one wants a deeper kind of connection, a different kind of "love"... then you let em go with your blessing, and good will, happy for the time you had together in life.....if you can't do that, you don't really love me, you just want to own em, on your terms. <p>That means no expectations, no relationship judgements, no vows, no threats, no withdrawal of friendship, no lining up friends and family on your "side".... and vice versa, the ws has to give up any expectations of what bs will do for them (especially you who have been doing almost all of it), participate fairly in counselling, and give up the op (that is a boundary from the bs with consequences). No posturing, no financial game playing (the marriage should go into frugal mode until resolved), and so forth and so on, this is not brain surgury, yet it seems so difficult for people to approach marital restoration rationally. Ya know, life is not over cause someone rejects you, nor is it over if even the marriage ends when it could have been saved, everyone will survive just fine (if they have their head screwed on straight, or learn their lessons). Ya know ad, if you divorce, and remarry someone and it works, 30-40 years from now this will all be ancient history, and of little notice in your life. But if you or anyone (thinking of many bs here) leave this time embittered and focused on how unfair life is, you could indeed be destroyed, but you destroy yourself, your ws had little to do with it, and the fact you don't do well is an indicator the marriage should end, cause it is based on dependtcy and manipulation, not love and nurturing....the former is not good for mental health, the latter is. IMO a well-balanced person will be happy, and productive regardless of whether a spouse leaves them or not (after a short period of emotional turmoil, and soul searching). I have no idea why we place (or try to place) such responsibility on another human being, making them responsible for our happiness and well-being.... is a recipe for disaster. <p>well, was gonna address vows next, but as usual this ended up being a book, will do vows later if ya want...maybe you don't.<p>In any event, good luck with your w. My advice, do not pressure her in any way, (except to require a no contact behaviour for any reconcilliation)... I understand your idea not to initiate divorce (I once believed that re my wifes threats for years, told her the same thing, do what you want, I don't believe in it)... but I think you (and I) are mistaken. It is a posturing position, and is manipulative. If you follow a specific plan re your relationship, it will take you to a place where next step is divorce, and you should take it as a responsible action to clarify the civil arrangement between you and w (the state cannot divorce/marry us spititually, and the paper has nothing to do with that, it is what is in your heart and spouses that determines our spirtitual status, and IMO large numbets of marriages are not married at all spiritually, either now, or never were, vows notwithstanding...but that is another issue too). The act of filing for divorce still is not the end, it never ends until one of you is dead, but it does bring more reality to the situation, and sometimes that pressure is what is needed to break through if reconcilliation is actually possible, and if not, it allows you to get on with your life.

snl, I disagree that the world would be healthier and saner if we make divorce easier. I think the solution lies in making getting married more difficult. If couples were forced to REALLY get to know each other and become familiar with the difficulties and commitments necessary in marriage, perhaps there would be fewer unhappy marriages. Too many people (especially young people) rush into marriage for the wrong reasons - not because they truly love and feel deep commitment to the other person but rather for things like just wanting to be married, security, emotional neediness etc. These are the things that lead to divorce. The relationship cannot be a healthy one until both people involved analyze their reasons for being in it. Marriage skills should be taught to young people NOT the quickest way to divorce. If it was standard practice for couples to do emotional needs surveys, taught to communicate openly, given budgeting lessons etc. before they married, many issues that ruin marriages would be handled before they ever started.
Marriage is not meant to be a prison and divorce is sometimes necessary but I don't think that people should enter into a marriage with the attitude of "Well, if it doesn't work out, we can always get a divorce."

Jacky,<p>Thank you for your honest comments. I seriously do consider the "doormat" angle on this, and others agree with you (including my best old friend). I appreciate you keeping up with my saga and commenting as you see it. Sometimes it is hard to see from the inside. <p>Still, I'm back in plan A for now.<p>S&L,<p>I am amazed at your persistance. You are still trying to find acceptance here. If you were making such a long posting for my benefit, I would be grateful, but it seems to me that it is just a continuation of your self-justification. <p>You accuse BS's of "manipulation" and yet you seem not to consider that the taking of vow's insincerely is very strong manipulation. If you had said to your W before you married "I'm going to go through the wedding cerimony because it is kindof nice, but you should understand that vows mean nothing to me and I will do whatever I want whenever I want - to try to find my own personal happiness - and if you expect me to do otherwise, you do not truely love me", I don't think she would have married you. Of course you didn't say that. You "manipulated" her into accepting you as her husband by solomnly reciting some kind of vows (which she mistakenly took to mean that you were committed to her). Maybe I am mistaken. Maybe in your marriage you told her just that - that you were in it as long as you thought it was in your best personal interest. I'm sorry, I haven't followed your story.<p>Now, it is important for us all to respectfully disagree if we must disagree here, but S&L, I don't see that you are contributing to my efforts to save my marriage - except to help me understand that some people are just completely selfish, and my W might be one of them. So, maybe you could post your self-justification on your own thread. OK. Actually, you would do me a kindness by deleting your post or editing it away. That way people would spend more time thinking about my problem and less time reading your self-justification and getting mad about it. Thanks.<p>Thanks,<p>-AD<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

SweetJane,<p>I was posting at the same time as you and didn't see your message.<p>Thank you for reading and posting - and for gently rebuking S&L as well.<p>I hope you have time to comment on what I posted.<p>Thanks,<p>-AD

AD,
I have to agree with Jacky to a certain extent. There's definitely a "having her cake and eating it too" element to your relationship right now. She's still getting everything from you that she was before (except physical intimacy) and she has her OM. What real reason does she have to change the way things are? Her needs are being met perfectly right now.
It is good to continue to show her what you can give her that the OM can't but at some point she may have to actually do without those things to realize how much they mean to her.
Be loving, be kind but please don't let her use you. You don't deserve that.

SJ,<p>Thanks for your further comments. You are not the first to say this. My marriage counselor (who I was seeing a few months ago), told me something similar. Actually, what he said was that he didn't see any of me (AD) in the marriage. It is all about her. Although he is not in lockstep with MB, I can see that MB theory prohibits the "whatever you want, dear" marriage. POJA means I have to assert myself and do only those things with which I enthusiasticly agree. What about during Plan A? Do I apply POJA? Or do I become even more accomodating?<p>My struggle is still with the vows. My W wants me to divorce her because she doesn't "want to be the bad guy" (her words). Forcing her to take responsibility for the termination of the marriage is IMO, a reasonable POJA view. I don't enthusiasticly agree to terminate the marriage, so I should not file for divorce.<p>Thank you again for your comments.<p>-AD

actually it was for your benefit ad, I have no need whatsoever for justification, but I do for understanding. Long ago I realized I will do what I want, and can take all the responsibility for it, those who cannot accept me (or judge my motivations), I figure is their loss. However, I do have a dual purpose in all my posts. The first is to respond the the posters circumstances, but I realize also there are many people who read and contemplate posts, so I will elaborate accordingly....and of course I (as do we all I assume) reflect my circumstances in what I post pretty often. The point of that long post was to offer (for what it's worth, and it may be worth nothing in your circumstance re your wife) some insight into how I (and therefore ws like me) feel and act. Just cause we are nice to you, or meet your needs on a given day, does not mean we have changed our minds re our issues, or want to be married to you, it may just mean we want to be nice, and try to make you feel good at that point in time. But I agree it is more hopeful than a poke in the eye with a stick.....and who knows, could be indicative of a changing heart. I have contemplated your request for editing, and feel it would be inappropriate to do so. It may very well be helpful to others even if you choose to misunderstand what I said (referring to your jibe about how I feel about vows, which you are wrong about). I cannot help it if a bs chooses their own brand of fog, but that is insufficient reason to censor myself. I understand you are have a rulemaker temperament, and as such have a rulemakers view re vows, if your wife does not share that temperament, it leads to conflict. Marriage has nothing to do with vows, it has everything to do with what people want, and that is what rulemakers cannot understand (I am learning)....to those of us who value what works, we care little about rules, so in the case of marriage we focus on the mental health of the participants, and if the marriage does not work...it ends. It does not bother us too much to be called selfish and self-serving by rulemakers, we recognize it for what it is, manipulation. <p>We deal in truth, and what works. And I am sure you do not mind be called reactionary and iillogical by rationalists, each group simply deals with reality differently, and we would be in bad shape without both groups. They just don't do well together in marriage oft times. Your attempt noble as it was, to predict your future behaviour and gaurantee love was flawed, cause it is humanly impossible. All you could gaurantee is you care nothing about happiness, metal well-being, the emotional realities of your spouse, all you could gaurantee was your presence in the marriage, and frankly that is of little interest to anyone but someone who values the picture of marriage more than the individual in it.....ya know ad, what you and other vows advocates cannot accept, is maybe you can never be the spouse your spouse needs, rendering your vows moot, cause you cannot love them the way they beed to be loved....why is that so awful? People make mistakes in life all the time, wrong job, wrong friends, wrong focus, why should marriage be exempt? And if we make a marital error what do we do about it? That is why vows do not work, they are not about love, they are about duty and coercion. In any event, I wish you the best ad, and if you would prefer I will not respond to anymore of your posts, I have no desire to make you feel uncomfortable with the truth as I see it. Good Luck with your wife.<p>of Good luck.<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

OK, S&L,<p>I asked nicely, and now I'm going to be blunt.<p>Please do not post on my threads. Please edit/delete any posts you have already made on my thread.<p>-AD

I just answered that question, so maybe you haven't seen it. I am not your w, no need to be angry at me, and my opinions are just as valid as anyones. Your reaction is inappropriate for this circumstance, if you just want hugs and support say so, and I would not have responded, but you were apparently soliciting honest feedback, and you recieved it, so I will not censor it. But I will honor your request to ignore your posts in the future, if I forget, then you can chew me out, but not now, so back off.....please.

AD,
I agree with you completely that you should not be the one to initiate the divorce. You don't want a divorce why should you start the paperwork? I suppose it could be seen as meeting a need of hers to not feel guilty but I think that would be taking things too far.
As to POJA during Plan A, I'm not sure. They almost seem like they would be mutually exclusive. There's probably little you can enthusiastically agree on right now. Plus, I think POJA has to be done by both people involved. She's certainly not going to limit herself to things that you agree to. If that was the case, she wouldn't be having an affair as I'm quite sure you didn't agree to that! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I think what you can do is try to worry a little less about her and a little more about you without being selfish. She's never going to realize what it is she loved about you and made her want to marry you if you're not that person anymore. You should definitely be there for her and be very loving towards her but not so much that you lose your identity.

SNL. You seem to be writing mostly for yourself and you do seem to enjoy hearing yourself talk. Please speak for yourself and stop carrying on like you have all the answers. WS sometimes make mistakes and wrong decisions due to a whole host of reasons and then realize that they do in fact love there spouses. Marriages tend to hit bumps along the way. Sometimes these bumps are not repairable but often they are and MB helps in repairing those relationships. I'm not up to date on your situation but you sound very bitter and hurt. You would like to think you have all the answers but I can assure you don't. You would also like to presume that you have this special insight as to what make a WS tick. You don't. But you can speak for yourself and that’s
OK.
Most people on this site have 10+ years invested in the marriage and would like to keep it together, make it better and possibly try if possible to correct what ever was wrong in the first place. Your posts offer nothing of substance and certainly reflect on you as a person. You seem lost and to a greater degree your posts reflect sadness.
SNL: Marriages can be saved, if there is love. And by there way we choose to love the people we love. To love or be in love is something that develops and changes. Does being in love turn into loving or is it the other way around. Try not to nominate yourself as the one with all the answers because you don't have them and only bitterness comes through in your posts.
Try changing your tact, for yourself and everyone else.
As for AD. I once told you that you need to practice tough love and back off a bit. Your age difference is something that will come back time and time again. Twenty-five years is a bit too big a difference. Work on yourself and be strong for your child. As for SNL. He needs to rethink his direction and work on himself.

adam, your comments are noted, appreciate your effort, suffice to say I solve my problems my way, and you yours (re how one posts)... and I have 24 years experience being married, so guess my insight is as good as anyones (re marriage in general), but be that as it may, ad prefers this thread be about him (and that is ok), if you wish to take me to task on a new thread feel free to do so.

AD,
This discussion seems to be straying from your original topic, but here's my two cents if you're still reading.
I seem to be in much the same situation you're in. My wife left me two months ago and moved out of state. She didn't admit she was leaving me for someone else until she was already gone, so she never really had to face me with what she was doing.
After a lot of thought and prayer, I too realized that I meant every word of my vows and that I still loved my wife. For me that means that I can't just divorce her, even though I think I would be justified if I did.
Along the same lines, though, I've also realized that I have to learn to stop holding onto her so tightly. I've started to realize that all the time that I was begging and pleading with her to stay, I was making it easier for her to keep pushing away. I'm also understanding that if she comes back, it shouldn't be because I've manipulated or guilt-tripped her into it. The chances of that leading to any kind of long-term renewal are pretty slim as opposed to if she comes back from her own decisions.
I've noticed that since I stopped pressing so hard, she's been much more receptive to me. She even asked me this week if she could come see me for Christmas. This is something she wouldn't have even considered if I had asked her to come. I have no illusions that this will necessarily fix our marriage, but it's a small step.
I've also felt much better about myself lately. Since I'm not begging anymore, I no longer feel frustrated when things don't go the way I want them to. I'm beginning to remember who I am without her, although I would still prefer to be with her.
I really think that this will help me whichever way things eventually turn out. I'll always know that I didn't give up on my marriage, but that I didn't give up on myself either.
I don't know if any of this helps, but thanks for letting me share. Stay strong.

Lionheart,<p>Thank you for posting.<p>I agree with your assessment completely. We had somewhat of a reconsiliation - starting about 6 weeks after she moved out. It got to where I was spending about every other night at her place - complete with SF [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] - but then, I think she realized that OM was coming here (he is from another country) and things fell appart quickly. After he came, it didn't take long for her to get him into bed. But, she confessed almost immediately.<p>I am having trouble taking the middle line. Sometimes lately when I have been angry with her, I have pushed her away or said hurtful things. Now I'm back on a reasonable footing. I don't call her often. More often she calls me. She seems very concerned that I not be angry with her.<p>Sometimes she calls just because she is lonely. One time lately, I told her I was too tired to talk - and she kept begging me not to hang up, but she wasn't saying anything and I was a little sick and wanted to go to sleep. Usually, I listen to her for as long as she wants to talk. She doesn't seem (never has been) interested in listening to me talk about anything - it's always about her. It is only when she mentions OM (even indirectly) that I get upset. I think I can even handle that sometimes.<p>I WAS about to give up on this thread until you posted. I was hoping for some thoughful comments from people who believe in marriage. Thanks again for yours. Sometimes I need to be reminded.<p>-AD

AD,
Sounds like your wife has a lot of issues she's not dealing with. Clearly she wants your companionship, but she also wants the excitement of her other relationship. I think that's been the same with my wife.
I really do worry about being treated like a sucker, but I've got too many feelings invested in her to turn my back on her. My biggest problem is that we've never even gone to any counseling. Her affair sprang up while I was away from her for a four month military assignment, and when we were reunited I had no idea what was going on. It seems crazy to me to throw away three happy years of marriage without even trying just because she became infatuated with someone else.
I guess the best we can do is press on being the people we are. If that means waiting for them to divorce us, so be it. No matter what happens, you'll always be able to be proud of yourself. Good luck.

AD,
I think you need to evaluate what you want your role to be in a marriage. Right now you are essentially a father figure. You're there for her when she needs someone to pour her heart out to and to support her financially when she needs it. Marriage is about way more than that. You are currently not getting anything from the relationship. Does she ever ask you how your day was? Does she notice if you're down or if you need someone to talk to? Did she ever? Has she ever met any of your emotional needs except perhaps for you to feel needed and for you to perform a caretaker role?
You should think about these things. Yes, marriage vows are important and I'm sure you meant them but have you ever gotten anything you need out of the relationship? Can you forsee anything ever changing? Do you think she will ever be able to give you what you need in marriage?
Just some thoughts.

AD,<p>I hope you are still reading this post of yours. I see you as a compassionate, loving H. I used to post here under Learning As I go, but lost that name with the change over. Now I post on Recovery, and not very often [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . I can feel your pain through your posts, and remember all too well how engulfing this all feels. I remember going mad trying to read into my H actions.<p>I plan A'd for about 5 months during his EA, and we still lived together...Many similarities between you & I. Firstly, about initiating the D. We were going to cont living together until he finished school. And still D in the meantime. Only two days after he told me he wanted a D I agreed to it. Yes, he manipulated me into it. I posted about it here. I even signed the stinking papers (we were doing pro se). I did it because he had me believing that was the only way to show him I loved him. By letting him go, and showing him that I cared more for his happiness than our M. I plan A'd w/o boundaries. In retrospect, I probably would have layed down boundaries, but in our case it would have cost me any hope we DID have. The book by Dr. Dobson helped me seperate myself from him.<p>I still pan A'd, and made it clear that I wanted nothing more than us, but I also began to have my own life. Only then did he take any notice of me.<p>He bagan to get a little jealous too! Ok back on track. IMHO, you are indeed a good compassionate man. But..I'm sorry if this offends you. I think your wife is a bit immature. Will she realize what she is losing before its too late? Will she realize no man will ever be the father to your little girl except you? Thats where the age factor concerns me.<p>In all of snl's rambling he made a good point about Bramble Rose. Do a search for the post "Deataching With love." She wrote it to me, when I was having problems with my father who is an addict. Can you love someone but also find their behavior unacceptable? How do you draw boundaries? These are things you may want to consider. How to make it clear to your W that you love her but do not, will not accept her behavior. I'm not talking manipulation or ultimatum's here. There is ALOT of value in YOU AD. Like snl said, this M or D will not defiine you. It is not the tell all end all of your life. And you cannot control her decisions(as I'm sure you realize, maybe I'm talking more to myself here.)<p>You see, after living miserably for several months reading into every time he looked at me, or we had SF together (that was TOUGH) I was left feeling so consumed as you are. That is very much a turn-off to our WS's. When I began to act non-chalantly only then did he see me not as a groveling desperate fool, but as a "beautiful woman who wont be alone long." A fine line to walk during plan A, but worth it. Even if it's just a facade at first, eventually you will realize that you are a valuable person worth of love. Continue to honor your vows AD. You are a man of character and integrity. Do not initiate the D.<p>I hope the best for you.<p>Warmly,
Dara

Hey, AbandonedDad, I still check in here most days, but I've been away from the board for Thanksgiving week. Else I would have gotten back to you sooner.<p>You already know how I feel about my vows, and frankly I think you are in a somewhat similar situation to my own, with a wife who is extremely confused and is self-destructing in her attempts to carve out an identity for herself.<p>Personally, I suspect that you may be putting a little too much weight on your wife's affection for the OM. I suspect that she slept with him not so much because of her attraction to him, but more because she was trying to separate herself from you. If she could drive you away by her action, then her bridges would be burned and she could put her past behind her (not!). And by betraying you, she could perhaps prove to herself that she wasn't worthy of you, and that therefore she is doing you a favor by leaving you. None of this makes any sense of course, but it doesn't have to make too much sense as long as she keeps running so hard that she doesn't have time to think.<p>I don't believe that POJA has any place in Plan A. POJA is for healthy marriages. Plan A is to show both of you what kind of person you can be. But AbandonedDad, I'm not sure that your wife needs to know any more about what kind of person you can be. If she doesn't know by now, it's only because she can't allow herself to know. I think what your wife really needs is to know the kind of person that she can be, and I don't see how she can learn that if you keep shielding her from the consequences of her actions.