Hi, I keep going through a lot of tears as my H and I try to maybe work through things and not divorce.. there are so many hard times mixed in all of this, and not so many good ones. I am feeling a lot better than 2+ months ago when he walked out right after I found out about the A. It has supposedly ended, and I do not have the whole truth, this hurts... a lot... to the point of my post...<p>My H keeps blaming everything on me, and saying it is because of me he had the A... because of me he left, etc... He is also an alcoholic and gets a bit loony toony when drinking, but when he is sober anyone would think he hung the moon and is a smart intelligent winner in life.. though very manipulative... anyway... this part I go to alanon for... but I welcome all the advice anyone has.... <p>Because of the drinking in my opinion and his irresponsibility, bills, money, etc... even being part of the relationship... he drinks at night.... we have gotten into quite a few fights over the years... I admit, I fight back, or did anyone... most were yelling , a few threatening abuse... on my part... I lost it, and threatened to hurt him... but never did... well once I slapped him and he still cannot get over that and it has been 3 yrs... I am violent... there are a few other physical scuffles which date back about 6+ years- 10 years--- they start with me, a 23 year old pregnant wife pouring coke on him when he called me names.... other fights.. typically he got to verbally abusing me and me "the violent one" slapped him.. he went ballistic and chocked me and held me down on the ground a few times... well --- these things are really old at this point... the one threat he won't forget of mine... if that I threatened to run over him with my car... mind you in the midst of being cussed out, cursed, etc... well this was years ago... I did not run over him... I threatened him... guess what I am the bad guy... this is part of why he is leaving me...<p>The sad part is , I thought we had gotten through all that.. Yes, I know it sounds horrid and it was... but about 3 yrs ago... when he drunk called me at BIT__ for about the last time I could handle in the most abusive way ever, drunk, etc... I freaked out... and slapped him.. he freaked out attacked me and banged my head on the floor. Well I know it is crzy that I still love this man.. but we went to therapy... and then of course he stopped, and then I went and went and went... well I got better, I guess he didn't ... <p>because he has left me and keeps saying it is all my fault because I am so violent, and that I ruined the marriage... because of my anger problems... etc.<p>Well, what is everyones take that reads this? I can't bear to be told how awful I am by my husband who has cheated on me and left me here with 2 boys and not enough money to live... we had not had a physical scuffle in years... he had this A starting in july... and it has supposedly ended... we are going to maybe go to therapy this week.<p>if I hear how awful I am anymore I will just go crzy!<p>And despite how bad this post sounds, we have had loads of happy times in this marriage... though right now my H keeps saying We just don't get along... well I think it was the drinking, the lying as of late, and the irresponsibility, and of course his never being able to resolve arguements... he is still angry over arguements we had 10 yrs ago. He is alot like my mom who is also a leo and never lets a grudge go...AGGGH <p>please advise your take on this craziness, I am hoping the counseling can help us talk this out. I am hoping for possible reconciliation , but have been considering filing, and my H keeps saying he wants to file on a continual basis, he doesn't think it can ever be right... but on our anniversay card of last year... and throughout our marriage he has professed his love for me... in words like.. on last yrs card... do not open unless you want to be married for the next 80 yrs.<p>I'm on the anniversay sadness since yesterday was our 10th anniversary and I was completely alone.. he was out of the state visiting his family.<p>He is not the same to me since he met this woman... he is not... the same person... he is so different and treats me so strangely. I always thought I was the love of his life, and our big bad fights were just part of both of our personalities and bad childhoods... he was abandoned... by his mother... has an alcoholic dad and granddad... and I was beaten... not excessively but definitely spanked by a belt and chased down by angry dad... etc. as a rebelious child... who only got angrier...<p>... that we had to get through that and move on, and I thought we had... I thought we were thru that... I hurt my back 2 yrs ago and our roles changed alot... I had been superwoman... working, mom, going to night school, I got my MBa, and attended some law school even... well when I hurt my back my H started paying more bills, working harder, cooking, taking care of kids... and I think he got mad... I wasn't doing my part... I wasn't in the mood for sex, and I was on prozac which made it even worse... and of course if he was drunk I would not want to do it... with a drunk H. It is so sad... But our sex was always good, I think that did keep us together.. and then with me sick that went downhill... maybe that is why he went for another woman... I also gained weight... I don't know... the whole thing drives me crzy///-- I thought if anyone would leave it wuold be me, b/c of the drinking, etc... but no... he left me... and now claims he doesn't know if we can ever work it out, but he will try in therapy... which is a long way from 2 months ago... when he sent me over the age... saying divorce was the only way. thanks for reading guys! <p>Thanks, lisa

Honey,<p>I went back and reviewed your other posts. I put together a list of what you have reported to be
"His faults"

• Alcoholism
• Lieing
• Blaming you for everything
• Calls you names, cusses you.
• Chokes you when you hit him.
• Adultery
• Failure to support you.
• Financial irresponsibility (according to you)
• Taking kids to a bar
• Taking kids to OW's house for the night. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
• Keeps grudges, unforgiving.

<p>Well, that all sounds absolutely terrible! But, you still love him. He has some good points too. He is fun to be around. He was (at least for a few months) making good money. I'm sure there are other good qualities. Is he an awful person? I can't say, but apparently you don't think so, because you love him. Still, all of his faults are problems in your marriage - which you would like to be "fixed".<p>But wait, here is another list, which I will entitle ...
"Your Faults" (uh, oh! - brace yourself)

• Anger & Violence
• Drinking (yes, you too - were drunk in the bar when you ended up with the assault charges)
• Depression (I know, you may not be able to do anything about it, but it does affect him adversely).
• Legal problems - for assault against OW and H
• Blaming him for everything (yes, you too)
• Weight gain.
• Partly / temporarily disabled due to back injury (maybe not your fault, but it does affect him)
• Financially controlling (according to him)

<p>Hey, you gave us all these self-criticisms. Perhaps there are others that might be of concern to him, but you have acknowledged (mostly) these. Do these make you an awful person? Well, we all have faults. You be the judge.<p>Now, I was reluctant to make the list of "your faults" because you said "if I hear how awful I am anymore I will just go crzy" - and we don't want you to go crazy. So, we will assume that although you have faults (as do we all), you are not "awful".<p>On the other hand, all of these things could be put on one list entitled "Problems in your marriage".

• hisAlcoholism
• his Lieing
• his Blaming you for everything
• his namecalling, cussing you
• He Chokes you when you hit him.
• His Adultery
• His Failure to support you.
• His Financial irresponsibility (according to you)
• His Taking kids to a bar
• His Taking kids to OW's house for the night. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]
• His Grudges / Unforgiveness
• YourAnger & Violence
• Your Drinking (yes, you too - were drunk in the bar when you ended up with the assault charges)
• Your Depression (I know, you may not be able to do much about it, but it does affect him adversely).
• Your Legal problems - assaults
• Your Blaming him for everything (yes, you too)
• Your Weight gain.
• Your Partial / temporary disability due to back injury (maybe not your fault, but it does affect him)
• Your Financially controlling behaviour(according to him)

<p>I originally listed these things in two separate lists for a reason. Although they can be lumped together as "problems in the marriage", really, the only ones you can control are in the second list. Your marriage has all these problems, but the only ones you can fix are your problems.<p>Now, you have mentioned that you are a Christian and rely on prayer. That is great! Remember now a couple of things that Jesus said :
"Let him who is without sin throw the first stone." AND
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."<p>Now, you have a right and a need to respectfully but firmly point out to your husband the things that he does that hurt you, but having done that, you have done your part. You might remind him now and then, but not too often. Probably he remembers your complaints. I know you remember his (and maybe resent them). But, you cannot force him to fix his problems. You can point out the sin, but should not throw stones. Likewise, he has a right and need to respectfully point out to you the things you do to hurt him. It may not be easy to hear them. I know it isn't easy for me to hear from my wife. But you need to listen to them - give him a chance to fully express himself. Of course, neither of you should do this in an abusive manner, but you cannot control how he complains to you - but can only listen. If you want the marriage to not only survive, but to prosper, you need to take responsibility for your problems and work on them - and let your husband fix his own problems. There is no guarantee that he will, but really, that is all you can do. You are not responsible for his problems. You didn't make him have an affair. He is not responsible for your problems. He didn't make you angry and violent. Also, your parents didn't make you treat each other this way. You are intellegent, thinking people, who can choose to behave differently than the examples you have seen in childhood.<p>Each of you can apply the golden rule by forgiving each other - as you would want to be forgiven. But you have control only over your own forgiveness. You cannot force him to forgive you.<p>I (AD) am not the one to point my finger at you (or your H) and condemn you for your faults. That is not why I listed these things. I have my own faults - many of which I know very well and some of which perhaps I don't understand or acknowledge. I'm not casting stones at you (or your H).<p>Plan A is about fixing the things you can fix - and leaving the rest alone. There are limits, of course, to what a person can take - and there may be a time to call it quits and get a divorce. I don't that time is here yet for you.<p>When you begin to fix the things that are under your control - your "faults", you may find that he automatically responds by fixing some of his faults. This is not to say that his faults are caused by your faults, but that there is an interaction between you - partly based on what might be called primitive or "animal" self-protection strategies.<p>Just like an animal, if a person is hurt (physically, emotionally or otherwise), or believes that [s]he is in danger, there are two basic strategies - which our emotions drive us to - Flight or Fight. When a person is hurt, [s]he has an automatic desire to either run away (withdraw) or attack. But, we are not simple animals. We are thinking beings capable of overcoming this reaction. We can give a thoughful response instead. Still, if we are not hurt nor feel endangered, we are less likely to lash out (fight) or withdraw (flight). So, when one person stops doing something the other finds painful, it is easier for the other to correct their own faults. One good thing leads to another. So, although your H did not cause your anger or violence, his behaviour might have created an environment in which you would be tempted to be angry. Although you did not cause your H's affair, your behaviour might have created an environment in which he was more susceptible to the temptation of an affair.<p>So, don't play the blame game. If you have a complait, voice it, make sure your H undertands - then leave it alone. If he blames you, listen respectfully - even if he treats you disrespectfully. Take his complaints to heart and try to correct them. It is all you can do.<p>Does this make sence? <p>-AD<p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

AD, Thanks for your post.... I admit, I do not like to see more people saying I am violent... it is not nice to see... I am angry at him... my H... for continually saying everything I did... and totally ignoring what he did.. and going back 10 years and many years to things I thought we were over to say that is why he left... your violent , your violent... <p>I do not want to blame him... I do want to acknoweledge both of our wrongs and work on the marriage... but it is hard when I keep getting told how awful I am.<p>I appreciate your thoughtfullness in reading my posts and replying.. you are very kind... I am embarrased by my truthfulness ... by my wrongs.. but I am not as crzy as I sound! I promise! <p>My husband and I are both respectable nice smart people... and it is crzy that we have been through so much. I do not blame outr backgrounds and know now that we are 33, me, and 34 , him, it is really time to grow up here... we married and met so young and have literally grown up together since we were 16 and 17 years, save a few years whe we were both in other relationships... and both married once before too, both failed marriages...<p>I really appreciate your pointing out that I need to stop blaming him. I do... I love him and forgive him... I want to focus on where do we go from here together... and that is where I need to stay...<p>I have to admit so much [pain is in me from the affair that it is crzy, but deep in my heart I feel he will come back to me.<p>I hate having to be the bigger person.. but kind of feel like that is what I have to do right now... it is going to be ok, but I need to hang out here and get support to be the bigger person, because my husband wants to blame everything that is wrong on me period... but he does start to say.. in little snippets... what he has done wrong... not that I love hearing it.. but it is nice to know he even realizes he has made some mistakes... <p>He is reluctant to acknowledge and admit the affair.<p>It is sad.. I think we may get through this sinc e we are going to go to therapy... but the sad part is now my family hates him and want s us to divorce... but it is my life isn't it.<p>I love my H, I have since I was 16 years old with all my heart, we have 2 beautiful boys... I love him and I know he loves me. We have to reach some real recovery this time.. and I just want him to move home...<p>Thanks for your thoughts.. <p>I really liked the part where you sd, if I start changing he may start to change too... this is what has worked the best in the past for us... and I think I will have to go this route... it is hard... I really wish I could see some more positives from him than I am getting--- I keep feeling like I only get a few little crumbs here and there of love and that is it... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey,<p>Thank you for recieving my post gracefully. I know it is not easy to accept that you have a problem with anger and violence.<p>I have been on the other end of it. My W has been angry and violent too. That, I think, was the thing that put me on the path to depression. I simply could not believe it! She was so gentle and sweet before we married. Nobody who knows her would believe the things she did to me.<p>
This was absolutely devastating to me. I don't think you can really know what an effect it has on a man. A woman is supposed to be gentle, soft etc. I don't know what effect it has had on your H, but please take it very seriously. If my wife moved home and started doing that again, I would ask her to leave - and I very much want her back.<p>The effect was that I never considered it safe to talk to her about something she might not like. I could not tell her what I truely felt about things. I could not discuss things with her when I suspected she might disagree with me. I could not confess any fault to her without fear of either verbal or physical reprisal. In short, it interfered seriously with our communication. It was a barrier between us - it interfered with my interest in sex.<p>There are a number of good books on anger management. I bought several and read a couple. Here are a few.
Anger Free My personal favorite - short, straighforward and authoritative.
Prisoners of Hate Very broad - covers war, racism as well as personal hate and anger. Authoritative. W read it. I have not. Based on cognitive psychology (which I like).
Facing the Fire makes managing anger FUN - based on the sometimes discounted "letting it out" theory.
A Common Sence Guide to Coping with Anger I haven't read it yet.
The Dance of Anger This one assumes it is the man who is angry. I didn't find it helpful.<p>Amazon has good descriptions on their site, but you might find them cheaper used here.
Prisoners Anger-Free Dance Facing CommonSenseGuide<p>There are plenty more.<p>I know it is hard to accept that you have this problem, but please approach it with an open mind. Fixing this can make a world of difference in your relationships.<p>-AD<p>[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

WOW!<p>Such EXCELLENT advice AD.<p>You are bocoming a MB guru, ya know!!!!

AD, Thanks for the advice, fortunatley and yes.. to the point of the posts...unfortunately... I have not been violent to my husband in yrs... ( big 3 yrs..) and he has been every bit as violent... and even more so... so I have to say, yes I gracefully accept your thoughts and advice and will investigate the reading, etc.<p>But the BLAME game is my problem... my husband turns everything around to blame it on me... I did this... b/c you did that 6 yrs ago... or I had an affair because you did this... 7 yrs... ago... <p>I think you best described it in the casting stones episode.<p>Has your wife ever been physically and verbally abused? I would guess she has, this is the root of my trouble in this area.<p>I appreciate your advice and go admit my problems.. the only NEW violent act I committed was catching the two of them in a bar and being drunk and going temporarily insane.. this is what I believe it to be, especially since I blacked out during part of this... being without sleep or food for 2 wks and drinking too much for a person of small build and seeing my H with his OW in public after dealing with all the bs, and how he left because of how awful I am... etc.<p>I am very quick to admit my faults.. I think my H overpowers me to the point of transfering all of his faults to me.. or refusing to deal with his... <p>AD, I understand your wife abusing you must be difficult, --- But from my point of view as a woman who has IN THE PAST made these types of mistakes... I really feel like in order for her to come back... (granted I do not know the whole or even part of the situation)--- you may have to acknowledge she us gentle soft and kind and womanly.<p>We all have anger, regardless of sex... and I do not in any way think a woman should be told she is less femme. because she fights back...<p>Yes, I have now learned to walk away... call the police, or leave, go to another room, close the door... etc... (When I started going to the other room to cry, when my spouse cussed at me, or put me down, etc... he got mad and sd. I could not lock the door to our bedroom, ,, so he kicked it down...<p>There's got to be a reason your W has so much anger in her... <p>I am sorry that your responses, though yes, helpful... have gotten me a little hyped over the you are violent theme... but I know it is just that I am so sick of the overblown unrealistic accusations... the bar incident and assault charges have been blown out of proportion --- the truth is I should of charged him for assault many times... since he really hurt me,... did I? NO, never... so it is strange that he turns everything on me... <p>Every conversation is based on what I did that was violent... well his part gets swept under the rug... we can;t ever talk about what he did... because it is swept under the rug and ignored since according to him, I am so wrong.<p>I am sure my "violence" hits a cord for you , since you are in a similar situation... but my main hurt here.. is THE BLAME he will not lift off of me... and that he will not face his wrongs... it is like he is saying my Affair doesn't matter since you slapped me when I called you a bit-- See what I mean???<p>Thanks again, lisa

Hi honey,<p>I just got back in town from the Thanksgiving holiday. I got your email and will respond later. It's cool you live in Houston too. <p>AD is giving you awesome advice. (BTW, AD, I didn't know you had it in you [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] j/k) As Al-anon teaches us, we can not control our spouses actions, we can not change our spouse, we can only control our own actions and change how we react to their actions.<p>There are still times my stbx tries to blame me for his unhappiness or actions, I just remind him his actions and unhappiness is all up to him and I can not control these things. <p>When my stbx now starts verbally abusing me over the phone or in public, I tell him I refuse to hear verbal abuse and when he can talk to me with respect I will listen, then I walk away or say bye and hang the phone up.<p>There are similarities in your story and mine, other than I have never once felt like I wanted to hurt my husband. My husband has always been the one who wants to hurt and inflict pain. Years ago, he too kicked down doors when I locked them. He was and always has been very control and intimidating. <p>I do want you to know, although you slapped him, you did not cause him to choke you. Your actions, as you know, were wrong, however, if he felt threatened by the slap, he should have called the police. His actions were wrong also. Physical or verbal abuse is unacceptable behavior from either person. It's good you know there are other choices to his abuse.<p>Please take AD's advice and work on fixing yourself and becoming a better person. Is your husband living with you now? Sorry, I don't remember. If he isn't, I would suggest if he ever wants to try with your relationship again, you put conditions on talking with counselors for at least three months, maybe longer, before you accept him back. Once you become totally healthy, I don't think you will want him back unless he too becomes healthy. This viscious cycle of abuse needs to stop, if not for you, then for your children.<p>Take care and welcome to MB.<p>ANNA

honey,<p>I will tell you that most of my anger has deflated going to Al-Anon. Keep reading the literature and attending meetings.<p>Your H fits the typical profile of an alcoholic - big ego to cover inadequacies, using blame to justify actions. You can stay out of his game...no reason for you to participate. You don't have to be 'his excuse'. Leave the house if necessary.<p>In my marriage I have been the controlling, sometimes verbally abusive partner. Living with the alcoholism can turn the most sane person into someone disagreeable (although most sane people refuse to live with an alcoholic in the first place).<p>Start focusing on *you* and what you can do to make yourself happy.

Honey,<p>Thanks for reading and responding to my suggestions.<p>About the incedent in the bar : It probably wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been drinking, but I must confess that I - in perfectly sober condition - once attached OM when I caught him with my wife on the beach at 1AM. If this had been in the US and in public, he might have filed assault charges against me (and my FIL, who "helped" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) too.<p>None of us is perfect. This was, I'm sure, a very provoking situation for you. I regret trying to choke OM. It didn't help my cause at all.<p>You asked about my W. Yes, she was abused by her Mom as a child - verbally, emotionally and physically sometimes too (up to and including a broken tooth). But, I didn't want to marry her Mom - and I don't want her to turn into her Mom.<p>Jacky and Anna2K,<p>Wow! It sure is nice to have a cheering section!
I don't deserve it, but it sure is nice.<p>Now, if I could only take my own advice...<p>Thanks,<p>-AD<p>[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</p>

Thanks Married1alcoholic, yes, I know what it is like to turn into insane person from a sane, responsible, kind person--- at least I thought I was. I have provided financially for, loved, and put up with crzy, crzy behavior for years. Now that we are seperated... and starting to maybe work things out... <p>My H wants to take me to dinner for our anniversary this week, it was 10 yr yesterday... and then we are suppossed to finally make a counseling appointment0- who knows if that will do any good after 21/2 months apart....<p>My home is quiet and predictable for the first time in 10 yrs.... his phone calls are frequently abusive and leave me in tears... <p>Right now the financial worries are stressing me out. I think if I can get through those... I will be OK>.. I am having more money problems than problems being alone.<p>There is so much in life I want to do,and to enjoy, and there is more emergy for it... without having to deal with being the brunt of someone's pain and alcoholism. <p>I think the whole drinking element makes everything such a different animal... for that I am in alanon.... I go online and really enjoy that. I have 2 small boys and that keeps me tied to the home post when I am not working right now...<p>My pain kind of comes and goes for the marriage relationship... Just the fact that he does not want to face and or admit anything he has done wrong really really hurts... <p>My H acts like if you will admit how crzy you are... I may come back... Wait a minute... I am starting to think IF YOU WILL STOP DRINKING AND GET SOME TEATMENT FOR THE DRINKING< WE WILL TALK ABOUT YOU BEING A PART OF THIS FAMILY>>>> It is awful to have someone think they have done NO WRONG... when they hav e been drunk....countless nights.. usually 6-12 beers.... since he started working downtown in april, it was the bar on the way home from work every night... it was a new nightmare... he started making good money for the first time in his life and our 10 yr. marriage and it totally went to his head.<p>I became not good enough because of a back injury and all the needs of the kids which I had to take care of... NOT HIS SELFISH NEEDS,,,, he wanted me to sit and rub and scratch his back nightly while I was suffering from a chronic back injury... from a car wreck... Did I mention the docs I saw one time a month knew where my pain was and suggested my husband help me massage it, but my H never asked or knew... until I finally told him one night while he was making his demands on me to rub his back... I think he might of rubbed my injury for 5 minutes total in 1 yr. maybe another 5 minutes the second yr. of the injury.... He went to a few doc appointments with me, but was not real caring. His EAGO, he is such a little god... is driving me nuts... I am really beginning to wonder how I ever loved him. <p>I still love him and want the marriage, but not the way it was. If my H would ever consider the Policy of Mutual agreement I would like that.<p>ANy tips of the policy of mutual agreemtne and bringing that into the marriage..<p>Some of the things I have heard when my husband has come home drunk are:<p>"What ya gonna do about it?"--- this is sd sarcastically , mean and rudely.<p>When I asked where he had been so late--- "None of your business!"<p>When I asked what he did with money etc... -- no real explanation... I have felt like a MOm and a caretaker for normalcy... my H spends money like water... and he never knows where it went, etc.<p>I always knew if there was going to be another woman, it would be a drunk... this one was a dart playing barfly sex addict who is married and who has done this several times...<p>Just the facts that he says he had to know if he really loved her... makes me sosooo sick. Also I talked to the barfly herself and she sd if our love is meant to be it will be, well in the drunken moments maybe it seemed like love....??? Sorry for all the venting, I am sick over the whole thing. <p>thanks for everyones thoughts... I appreciate your support married2alcoholic, boy do I know how that is!!!
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

AD and Anna--- thanks for more replies... I really appreciate the support on this issue. I know I need to get to an alanon meeting!<p>I like the idea of breaking the cycle and staying totally out of all of this... that is what I thought we did 3 yrs ago when things got bad one night...<p>His drinking just got worse again since april and his new big $ job, which inflated the eago big time... he just laid off and the eago is deflating, in fact I think he is getting scared... but anyway...<p>I want the verbal abuse to stop... and boy am I sorry I lost it in the bar that night.. I had no intention of it... and never went so nuts in all my life... I guess it was just an internal rage... I thought I was filled with sorrow... and depression but seeing my H walk into a bar in the clothes I bought him on his back with some sorry I cant call her much except sl--! I lost it.... I would not do it again or advise it. <p>THe lawyers say it may be dropped, and if this whole things blown out of proportion goes to trial the jury is likely to side for me against the cheating husband and his married cheating cohort.... <p>We are living seperately and the peace is starting to feel good.<p>What really bugs me is that I had let mey guard down and was depending on him financially, and really starting to think I could be like those other wives who stayed home and took care of the kids while their sweet husband supported them financially... I had never had this before in 10 yrs of marriage... also with a back injury I needed some r and r time... well the moment I need him instead of being my regular superwoman self.. he does this... the cheating and the abandoning to me! and on top of cheating and abandoning me, he says it was all my fault and that I am abusive and violent....<p>Well, well , well, I had gone to tons of therapy for what happened in the past and thought I had recovered.. he is just digging up past problems... which he has done way more to me than I have ever inflicted on him... to say it is my fault not his.... <p>He is trumping up my attack on his girlfriend to his advantage.... and has spread the rumor to his alcoholic dad and his 4th wife and his grandparents over thanksgiving... if course his version of the story has him leaving me solely because I am violent and then he goes out to a bar with a girl while we are seperated and I show up and go ballistic... LIes, lies lies... it is so sad and sickening what he spreads to his family about me... and they are believing him... they do not even care that he is killing himself with alcohol....<p>Thanks for all the support, dr. harleys books and others I have gotten have really helped a lot... I may even be able to help , and at least support others out there. My bedroom is like a library... I know the plan aing I have done has really helped us to get along better/// <p>And although crazy--- after my "attack" the ow broke it off with him, so in a way I am glad if she wants to stay out of it anyway... but she may have eventually backed off, as she is married anyway...<p>I think I need to grow strong with myself and move on.. right now I am wnting him to change and want the marriage more than he is wanting it. He is enjoying his party life which I did not agree with. Maybe he is not meant to be a family man... maybe there is a better man out there who wants what I want out of life... stability, moving forward on goals of financial responsiblity, a bigger house... vacations, nice dinners, etc... time with the kids, enjoying each other.<p>Really for the first time in our marriage... my H and I were looking like we could start to have some things we really wanting ... having more money than just enough to survive... we had many lean years as we married young and broke... but he goes off and ruins things just when we can start to have what I wanted anyway... and don't forget according to him--- it is all my fault!<p>Thanks for reminding me... that he does drive me a seemingly sane individual to do things I wouldn't even think possible... so maybe i would be better off alone or with someone who actually helps me better myself and my life.... <p>thanks again gang!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AbandonedDad:
<strong>Honey,<p>Thanks for reading and responding to my suggestions.<p>About the incedent in the bar : It probably wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been drinking, but I must confess that I - in perfectly sober condition - once attached OM when I caught him with my wife on the beach at 1AM. If this had been in the US and in public, he might have filed assault charges against me (and my FIL, who "helped" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) too.<p>None of us is perfect. This was, I'm sure, a very provoking situation for you. I regret trying to choke OM. It didn't help my cause at all.<p>You asked about my W. Yes, she was abused by her Mom as a child - verbally, emotionally and physically sometimes too (up to and including a broken tooth). But, I didn't want to marry her Mom - and I don't want her to turn into her Mom.<p>Jacky and Anna2K,<p>Wow! It sure is nice to have a cheering section!
I don't deserve it, but it sure is nice.<p>Now, if I could only take my own advice...<p>Thanks,<p>-AD<p>[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: AbandonedDad ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ad, Sorry about the post above, I am learning my buttons... on marriage builders... My MOM and my Dad were abusive to me growing up. But --- I am a responsible adult responsible for my actions... funny that you say you do not want your W turning into her MOM. <p>At times I have acted like my MOm, and my H, called me by her name... WOW, that hurt. I love my MOm, but she will not even face her abusive ways, mostly verbal, , and not even cursing just such high expectations... perfection you might call it.. Thanksgiving day my mom insulted me in the car and yelled at me and told me how awful I am... b/c my house is a mess during all of this depression I am goign through and how I am a disgrace to this family and I have dragged her through hell with all of my problems for years... this goes back to last week when she watched my kids and came in and cleaned my older sons room and redecorated it... bought him a new comforter.. bed shams, lamp, etc... and went through a desk of mine in his room and threw out all kinds of my papers at her discretion that she felt were trash... etc.... and also threw out lots of toys and pieces of toys I had just spent my money on... since she did not know what they went to, etc... mind you... I told her she could not come into my home and clean... I had to leave the door unlocked running late last wk, one day and she against my specific statement that it was not ok, came in and did this... yes , she kind of helped... but when I what I thought was healthily voiced my opinion and frustration at her trashing my stuff and my kids stuff and that I will now have to dig through thrash... she lost it and went ballistic yelling and sreaming at me all like she is the righteous one and I am despicable... <p>My home is my parents name due to bad credit on me and my husbands part and she threatened that I put it in her name right away... in 2 months or move out..... Isn't that nice and sweet of her? My Dad has physically abused me... and he stopped a long time ago.. his excuses were I pushed him to that level... because of how "out of control I was".<p>Anyway this can go on and on and is getting long... but even my parents are against me right now, since in my family there is no time or room for feelings or sadness or despression... my house should be in tip top shape.. of course and I should of already found a great job the week he moved out... I just started looking at about the 6 week mark, since I was so down and depressed at first.<p>Anyway... NO I DO NOT WANT to be like my parents!!!<p>I hope your wife can recover and I hope she is open to the books you suggest, I am going to ck them all out. I am right now reading the dance of anger, have you read that one?<p>I know I have a lot of pent up anger a in me, venting seems to really get it out.. Just talking gets it out. I am in therapy again alone for me and have been for about 6 weeks and it is helping, these support boards are helping...<p>I found this site when I looked up cheating husband as a search word on the net when he was not coming home... during the last month of so he was home.<p>It really hurts that he , my H, keeps telling me how awful I am and why he had to leave me when he used to be my best friend and I loved him so much. Maybe I did drive him away... boy I did have some rages.. but so did he. I forgave his.. I know they all have to stop, and I am thankful for that- and that we are apart right now and there are no rages... [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I am happy about that... but I am not happy that he keeps saying we cannot work it out, and I keep wanting to....<p>I guess I have to move on to just taking care of me... The stone throwing is really hurting... <p>He just called, and tears are welling up inside of me and wanting to start rolling down my face again. It is like forgiveness is just not at all in his heart.... for me. Funny but we were just kind of coasting along, not really even fighting,but starting not to communciate before the A. I just always stayed away or upstairs when he got into the drinking.<p>I withdrew and avoided him when he was drinking... I started crying more and getting sadder about us not being close... which is where I am getting again... <p>It is like I am married to someone who just wants to say all the bad is your fault, sorry you have so many problems, but you ruined things.. that's why I turned to another W. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also wanted to Note AD. Thanks for adding in that my little bezerkness at the bar that night probably would not of happened had I been sober, right o, you are.<p>I have not been drinking and my mind is clearing... I was drinking more when my spouse was home... I guess if you can't beat them join them... and I notice now too much of it, was deteriorating my life.<p>I am so SAD, especially after I keep getting calls from my H, uncaring phone calls. He wants me to do X for him, but he will not do Y for me... Etc. YOu are bad,you are bad, you are bad is kind of like the theme song he inflicts on me...<p>From someone who was once the love of my life... it really breaks my heart.<p>Here's to soberness and facing our demons and rising upagainst them and coming out on top! Thanks guys, I can be happy being me, even if my H thinks or blames me for his cheating and says he has to be away from because I am so awful, even though it is not true.<p>Thanks again for being here, the advice is priceless.<p>sober cheers!<p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Honey - what a great name!<p>What I'm "hearing " as I read through your posts is that you don't have any emotional support.<p>FOO is accusing and distant. WS is WS.<p>If this is true, it seems such a painful place to be. <p>But listen. The blaming that your mother does and that your husband does is not about you.<p> Honey, it's not about you. It's about them. And their fears. <p>If you feel that this isn't right, that you deserve better, you're right.<p>If you don't feel that way, you may be beating yourself up more than they are.<p>Don't do that.<p>Remember, anger from others is based on fear. And it's not about you. The attempts of others to control you is based on fear.<p>What you can do ( which, to me, often doesn't seem like "enough") is work on you.<p>Love yourself. Stop accepting the blame of others.<p>Your husband needs to change some things about himself. If he does not, don't let it change your growth.<p>Because you deserve better. From yourself and those close to you.<p>IMVHO.<p>Dan

Honey,<p>You said that you 'might' start counseling..can I make a suggestion..you go..whether he goes or not..you need to go for you, and for your kids..and you should take your kids also..so that they can start learning healthy patterns of relating and expressing their own hurt and pain and not be afraid to speak up about how they feel..right now they are probably walking on egg shells "is mom going to get angry at us too??"
when kids see parents fight they begin to wonder what it will take to get mom and dad that angry at me?? <p>You stated that 3 yrs ago, you changed..and then things went back to the way it was before..after how long did it go back to the rages and anger?
Your h probably wonders the same thing..yes, she said she's changed..but how can I really trust that she has?? How do I know it won't start back up again?<p>Just like your own trust issues, How do I know he won't get violent again? How do I know he won't go out to the bar and get drunk and go home with someone else?? <p>So your both going to have trust issues in these areas..and the only way to fix that is by learning to communicate in a new way with each other..<p>I actually found the Book "The Dance of Anger" very informative, but only to a point..I really didn't see it as a male/female biased book but in relationships in general..and how we need to change our reactions to their actions..be it anger, or verbal put downs..be they from a man or a woman..it really doesn't explain 'how' to change the patterns..and says.."just do it" "just don't respond" well, if you've always responded to things a certain way..you need to know an alternative way to respond..(which is something you've probably never learned having had an abusive FOO) so this is dificult to learn..and they will try to push all those buttons in you to get you to respond the way you always have so that they don't have to change.<p>Which is what it sounds like happened before in your marriage..you began to change..and your husband didn't..and kept pushing those buttons to get you to go back to what he knows as comfortable..(he may not like it that way..but it's what he knows..and is most comfortable for him that he doesn't have to look within himself to change) which is why it's called a 'dance' you follow the steps of the other person..and your react to their steps..now when you start doing another step..(reacting differently) they are being forced to do something they are comfortable doing..so they will do everything they can to make you go back to the old dance..which is why being in counseling and a support group is so important..so that you have others to help you continue to learn the new steps..and get comfortable doing them..<p>One of the best ways to learn new dance steps is to learn healthy boundries..learning what your boundries are..what it is you yourself are responsible for..and what you are not responsible for..<p>I understand that your husbands words and blaming you for everything are very hurtful..but you can learn a new dance here when he starts throwing your past in your face, you can say something to the fact that -<p>"Yes, your right I did that years ago, and I was wrong to react the way I did, I am very sorry I reacted that way, will you forgive me?"<p>don't add a but, you did this..when you add the but, you are then blaming them for your actions..which they have no control over
you alone are responsible for your own actions
just drop it at the point that you admit your actions were wrong..<p>Do you see the difference?<p>You don't have to run away to your room and cry..because you are taking responsibility for your past mistakes..and at the same time apologizing for how your actions hurt him acknowledging that his hurt is real..and valid..just as yours is..<p>You aren't taking responsibility for his hurt, just your actions..he will have to deal with and feel his own hurts. And he won't be comfortable doing this..and will get even angrier because he doesn't want to feel them..he wants you to feel it..just as when you get angry at him and start blaming him you are trying to make him feel your hurt..he's hurt you..so you want him to know what it feels like..<p>but, in your anger your not acknowledging the fact that you both hurt..and both your feelings are real and valid..<p>So when you step back and say you know..your right, I did that, and I was wrong, and I am really sorry..he feels his own hurt..you are no longer trying to add your hurt to his..and he's forced to face his own feelings..and it frees you to feel your own hurt and not take on his too.. <p>This will either cause him to face his hurt and learn to deal with it and accept it as his..or continue to run and hide from it..by drinking or trying to continue to blame you and everyone else..<p>As far as your FOO, you can learn to respond to them in the same way..you can try to sit down and talk to you parents..about how their words and actions hurt you..example..<p>You know mom, I am really thankful that you took the time to come over and clean my son's room..and I really appreciate that, but when you critize me about my house being messy it really hurts me, I am trying so hard to do everything and be everything to everyone, trying to take care of my kids, save my marriage and work on me, that your comments make me feel like I am a failure and I feel like just giving up, like why even bother, and thats not what I need right now..Is what I really need right now from you and dad is your love and support to help me through this..and if you can't give me that, well, then I am sorry I don't measure up to your expectations, and that I'll have to find that support elsewhere..because that is what I need right now..<p>And see how she responds..it's showing your appreciation even through your own frustrations..because yes, I believe that you are thankful for her help..but, you don't want to be critized by her when she gives it..<p>I hope this helps..

Hi Family Man, Thanks for your post, it made me feel better. Yes, I am feeling really alone without a lot of support... especially from important places in my life, my H and my FOO.<p>At least I have some girlfriends and I also am going to alanon online... need to go to face to face meeting, but no time right now.<p>Thanks for the support...it really feels good to have someone see that no one is in my corner right now..<p>Today my car broke down and my parents helped me out with my car and with my kids... It is funny that they can be really nice and supportive... escpecially by watching the kids and moneywise...etc... but my MOM is so judgemental it drives me crazy sometimes.. I do think it is based on fear--- it is just that she sees my life going kind of out of control and so she just blames me and tells me why everything is my fault and that I messed up and put myself in this situation to begin with..<p>I was a rebellious teenager because of the strict home I came from... so that is how I kind of ended up with the alcoholic husband. I used to be a big partier myself, but kind of thought you eventually stopped that... and did when I got pregnant, and could not exactly be a partier and a mommy at the same time... anyway, need to work on all this in therapy- I guess.<p>I do need some friends in my corner. I always thought my H was, but somehow or another right now he is FAR FROM IT> I hope we can restore this, I am praying for that. <p>I have voiced to my H and my MOM that I will not accept their abusive behaviors... it is almost like my Dad and Mom are made at me for saying NO and I will not accept that, what you did is wrong... my Dad says I owe Mom an apology for being mad at her.. for her cleaning my house without permssision... anyway- such a long story.. but truth is I think she needs to see some boundaries here. I am not/ have not gotten an apology from her... but she did help me out today... I think we are unfortunately sweeping it under the rug for now.. since MOM can't admit she was wrong... and I am not accepting what she did.. the unwanted snooping, cleaning... wasn't as bad, as the insults and put downs she directed at me when I voiced my upset over her trashing some of my stuff and doing the cleaning against my wishes... Reason it is against my wishes is MOM has a history of criticizing me.. she is a clean freak,... it is like the odd couple... she is phelix and I am oscar... though I am not quite as bad as oscar.. anyway as soon as I can afford it I will hire a maid again... (I have a back injury and this kind of perpetuates the problem)>>.<p>Gotta go, I have a 3 yr old who won't go night night in my lap at the computer... I have to go to bed with him to get him to fall asleep sometimes.. tonight seems to be one of those times..<p>thanks for being in my corner, I really needed that! thanks a million family man, I am smiling on my way to get this tiger to bed.<p>Lisa [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Thorned ROse, I just saw your post right after i posted to family man, I appreciate your caring and advice. I really really do! It is so great to get real life opinions on all of this...<p>I have to be short and go to bed... take my 3 yr. old to bed quickly.. he is sooo tired.. he just got out of my lap and into a chair... so maybe he will fall asleep there and I will carry him up to bed...<p>Anyway.. I appreciate your advice on the therapy... I have been in individual seperately since the whole things started.. and my H and I are waiting to to together.. my oldest son is in therapy alone too. and I sometimes go in at the end and talk a little with him. My H wants to maybe go with my 9 yr. old, but they have not worked it out yet... My oldest son is mad at dad for what dad has done to us.. leaving and the OW and the A... he took kids to spend night with OW 2 wks after he left and I had not even told them about it,... until my son, sons, found out the hard way.<p>I do like the advice of a support group.<p>Maybe I was not clear enough, but I know it is hard to really know everything that is going on from these posts...<p>The violence on both our parts ended 3 yrs. ago --- except that I "lost " it in a bar about 6 wks ago and attacked ow, temporary insanity lets call it, but still a ghost from my past... unfortunately somehow my H got in the fight and he got bitten, claims I did it.. but I am not sure about this, because I was bitten.. I think the OW was doing the biting... he claims I bite him... I do not agree.. but did black out???... this is all crzy crzy crzy and he uses it to say he left because I am violent. <p>I am tired of the accusations and insistence that I did all wrong.. the truth is we were distancing due to my back injury and his work and his drinking and my anger and resentment over the drinking... I think verbal fights were bad on occasion.. and definitely lbs, I am sorry for that... in the last month... he got meaner and meaner verbally and I did too... for some reason stress started to escalate.. I guess the a had something to do with out now that I know... but then I did not know... <p>All the sudden he was calling me fat, ugly... etc... I am none of this.<p>Anyway... things got worse I started to threaten physical abuse,... but did not... It is like put in a corner ... I started to revert back to old ways... and my new coping mechanisms weren't being accepted my H. My going to the room to get away from the heated arguements we would get into... he would not allow me to walk away from him... he would chase me down all over the house.<p>He would come home and be drunk at 2am... and I would say "where were you"- his Answer "none of your business" then me "well it is my business, I am your wife and this is wrong... " then his answer "what ya gonna do about it" This kind of thing would get us out of control... on one of these nights I got the cell phone, his and starting looking for proof of where he had been, etc... and he grabbed it and hurt my hand.. well my policy on abuse had been to call the police, so I did... and that just made things worse in the lbing court.. they made him leave for the night... etc. and soon after he started the a. He hated me for calling police when he grabbed and hurt my hand while drunk... also that night I then threw cell phone across room after he did this.. he claims this is evidence of my violent nature...<p>Anyway... my kids are in no means afraid or frightened of me. I do not believe in spanking and do not yell at or rage at my kids... all of this, was usually based in or around the drinking episodes and the abuse I was subjected to.<p>I am not an innocent, and I know there are times my H and I have had bad lb arguments, etc.. when he is even sober... but I have to think realistically a lot of it is based on his bad treatment of me.. for I do not know what reason.. during this seperation... I have gone a little foff the deep end lbing.<p>I am goig to sto pthe lbing - I have gotten angry at my inlaws and their part i nthis thing... etc. etc. etc... <p>Anyway, got to go to bed.. will look at your post again tomorrrow... I appreciate the fd back tremendously .. I really really do. I will take what I can to help this situation. I am really hurting a lot right now.. but the support I am finding here is really helping.
Thanks, lisa [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]