Hi All,<p>For all of you who know me I'm now living in Texas. WOOOHOOO. I'll get to the point. I'm well on my way to getting a divorce. Its just a matter of the paperwork making its way through the court system. What I was wondering is, for those of you who are christian, when are we divorced in God's eyes.

That's a pretty tough question that I've been dealing with myself.
I'm not sure what your religious leanings are, but I think it all depends on you. I'm in a similar situation right now, and I think I'm going to wait for the paperwork to be final before I consider moving on. Part of that, though, is that I still think there's a chance of fixing things. I really feel like if I've done all I can to save my marriage, then God will let me know when it's right to move on. That point may be before or even after the divorce is final. I'm sure most church officials wouldn't agree with me, but I think if you're being honest with yourself and in your relationship with God, you'll know. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Hey Goodguy!<p>I don't have an answer to your question, just wanted to say hi. You sound pretty good, and I'm glad!<p>love and light,<p>Jacky

I'm battling that myself. Not sure we ever are divorced in God's eyes. If we are - I think by walking with God - in His will - we will know that time.<p>Texas is a good place - close to Colorado... lol<p>Jan

No one can tell you that, not as a standard, and not in your personal circumstance either. But I suspect it has to to with a hardheart. God talks alot about hearts in various contexts, and I think it is in part where He speaks to us, and where he sees the truth about us re various issues. Like whether we really believe, about how we really deal with sin, and about the nature of our bond with other humans, children, parents, kin, neighbors, strangers, and mates. I think He talks about marriage (in the various places), and the different kinds of love to help us recognize the truths of our heart re mates.....and if we are not spiritually right with the marriage, we are to correct that, by restoration of divorce, we are NOT to live in a oneflesh union dutifully. <p>This is the part so many have trouble with, they think marriage is vows and licenses....it is not, cannot be. Vows are made rationally, they do not engage our hearts, all promises are rational, contractural....and of course the state (marriage license, divorce decree) has nothing to do with marriage, those are economic means to recognize the spiritual desire of people to bond, and structure society accordingly. Many people who are "married" are not married at all, they live in sin with state sanction. Likewise some people who are "divorced" are not, and they sin against their spouse....in any event the truth lies in our hearts, and I think with motivation, and proper effort, we can discern the truth. Many confuse dependentcy and pride with marriage, they think cause the supposedly are fixated on their spouse they love them, this is not true, and is just another face of pride. A marriage does not exist unless the proper intent is in BOTH peoples hearts, and the one who does not accept or recognize that is simply living in denial. You cannot make a marriage (spiritually) nor can you "work" at a marriage, marriage comes into existence when both hearts are right, and you are mated to the "right" person (can't just be anyone, and in fact I think the numbers of mates God has for us is probably pretty low, if we go as far as to say He has a specific plan, it could only be one, but there is no way to know that either). Freewill gives us great latitude to act willfully, and out of lust, possesion (of another to meet our needs), dependentcy, confusion, deception (as people misrepresent themselves to each other), so we most often in the ignorance of youth marry with a poor understanding of our intent, most often in error, and therefore do not achieve a oneflesh union, and suffer all the consequences of that. Ya know, it gets overlooked all the time, and discounted as being a fantasy, but it is not...people in-love, who are matched to each other, are happy, all the time (maritally), yes there are problems, but they are the picky kinds of things that people always have with each other (married or not), they do not put the marriage at risk, needs are met, affairs do not happen, spouses are cherished and passionate, this happens, it is not an accident, it is cause they are spiritually married, they are oneflesh.<p>Goodguy, only you know the truth of your heart. When your wife committed adultery, she may or may not have divorced you, depends on whether it was a lustful sin, or a shift in her being to focus on another (divorced you), likewise your focus now, if your heart has hardened, you recognize your is not the one...... then you may very well be divorced. Then again, you may never have been married at all, and lived in sin with your w, I really don't know, nor does any other human being. But you can pray to God for discernment, re what your time with w really was or was not, and to be able to see Him moving in your life. Good Luck.

Brandon,<p>Welcome to Texas!!!<p>To me, the answers to your question is in the Bible, as are all answers to biblical questions.<p>It states this in Matthew 5;31 "It has been said, Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce." <p>Now this verse continues but my main point is throughout the Old and New Testament the Bible discusses a certificate of Divorce.<p>Also, there are verses in the bible where it is commanded we follow the laws set forth by our government, as long as these laws don't interview with the bibles teachings. Here's just one of those verses, 1 Peter 2;13 states this "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority"<p>Our laws have a certificate of Divorce and until we are granted this divorce by our government, in God's eyes we are still married, because God states we must abide by the laws set forth by our Government.<p>The bible also states a spouse can divorce a spouse who commits adultery. She had an affair, she divorced you, once the divorce is final in your state, in God's eyes you are divorced.<p>Take care GG,<p>ANNA

Goodguy,<p>YAY!! Welcome back to MB and I'll pray for you in Texas--Colorado misses you. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In answer to your question, let me tell you what I think...but I'll warn you, I'm Jewish. heehee. Anyway, I think that the IDEAL that God wants us to shoot for is a marriage that is a mirror of Christ's love for the Church--wasn't Jesus referred to as "The Bridegroom" and the Church as "His Bride"? Anyway, it seems to me that Jesus gave His own life for the Church even though it was at a GREAT, HUGE cost to Him. Now, you notice that it was not, "I will love the Church until it becomes painful for me, and then I am free to go." No, Jesus loved the Church so much that He put the needs of His bride ahead of His own, and He did what HURT Him in order to HELP her. Right??? Following me so far?<p>Well this is our ideal--this is our goal in our marriages--to love our spouse in such a way that we put their needs ahead of our own. In my marriage, I would consider the best interests of my H ahead of myself and my own best interests...and to be a little specific, I believe it is in my H's best interests to continue his counseling and learn about the origins of his anger, even though being here in this marriage while he LEARNS is not always the best place for ME to be--selfishly. Get it? <p>HOWEVER, like almost any ideal, it is just that--an IDEAL. We are humans and we are weak; we are in the flesh and not always able to attain the goal which God holds for us. And guess what?? He loves us ANYWAY!!! I think that God knows that we are human, and I think that He gives us His own love and understanding when we do the best we can and fail. In your instance, Goodguy, you were willing to spend a lifetime trying to learn how to meet that ideal, but your W was not. She coldly and selfishly left you--period. There's no other way to say it. Well, God wishes we could love out spouses like Jesus loved the Church, but God also knows that we are weak, fallible human beings and we bumble along and don't do such a good job. <p>So, how would a human father react? A human father would hope that his child be part of a loving, supportive relationship, right? But kids will be kids, and his child is selfish and snotty and self-absorbed. Does the human father stop loving his child? No--if anything the human father hopes the child will learn from his/her mistakes, and maybe the human father will even try to help teach his child from their mistakes. A human father would still love his child and make some consideration for the fact that the child is young and foolish and fallible--right? Well, gee, if that's the way a HUMAN parent would react, can't we expect SO MUCH MORE from our heavenly Father? <p>Goodguy, I'm pretty sure that God will continue to love you for the valuable person that you are. I'm sure He will continue to want the best for you. I'm also sure He will hope that you learn from your mistakes, and He may even try to teach you something. <p>When are you divorced in God's eyes? In your case, I would say as soon as the papers have gone through the court system and the ink is dry.<p>{{{{{{{{{{GoodGuy}}}}}}}}}} It's good to hear from you!<p>CJ

Dear Goodguy,<p>Everyone here has answered your question much better than I could hope to, but I'll put in my 2 cents worth.<p>Your question is important to me because it is probably what put the nail in my marriage's coffin. From what I understand of the bible, and in my heart, I feel that we are married until the judge pronounces us as not. Because until then, there is still the possibility of reconsiliation of the family. And it bothers me that in many countries, a man can say "I divorce you" and that is that. In my opinion that takes the promise we make to God too lightly.<p>In my case, my STBXH decided that our marriage vows were broken when he moved out, and he proceeded to seek out other women. Until then, I thought our marriage might be repaired, and my H acted like this was possible also. His behavior changed radically when he started dating. And that is why I think your question is so important. Even in situations when repair is extremely unlikely, I think we have promised God to keep that door open (even if it is just a tiny crack)until our union has been pronounced "void".<p>I think this time for the divorce to work itself to its conclusion gives us time to heal also. If someone wonderful comes along, if they really care about us spiritually, they will wait it out as our friend. And I know this can be hard. I have been seperated for almost 2 years now, and this process seems extremely slow to me. Sometimes I wonder if our divorce will ever be final at the rate the court postpones things. And it feels like you are putting your life on hold. Sometimes it drives me crazy, and it is very lonely in this couples world that we live in. But I firmly believe it is the right thing for me.<p>Good luck to you and God Bless!<p>Lisa

I have no intention of being contentious, have already stated my general ideas (which ahve changed as I looked harder at this issue), so don't consider this an argument. But the notion we are spiritually divorced, or married, cause the state says so seems foolish. It places our emotional realities in the hands of the state instead of God. Yes, there is stuff about rendering unto ceaser, but has nothing to do with our spiritual welfare, in fact we are commanded to ignore the state when it gets between us and God. And since God is the arbiter of sin and such includes the nature of our interactions with others (as in love your neighbor, and specific revelations such as how marriage should be, and such things as oneflesh, and what God put together no man can put asunder), it seems to me the state plays no role whatsover in whether we are married or not. So looking to the state for our status is not only wrong, it is downright dangerous, cause it seperates us from a focus on God. Lastly a divorce decree is not the end, a marriage never really ends until one party (cause it only takes one) realizes the spiritual union does not exist..either cause God ended it (and He implied He could, and would, in Scripture....or it never existed cause oneflesh did not happen due to freewill errors in mate selection. The state CANNOT marry/divorce anyone, only God can, and He DOES NOT do it cause a state somewhere issues a marriage license, that would be ridiciculous. Human beings need no state recognition at all to be married, two people are married when they both realize (correctly) in their hearts that God'd plan was for them to become oneflesh with each other, and they accept that.....period.<p>If it were up to the state, than those govts that allow homosexual marriage are doing God's work, and He must recognize those unions as spiritual marriage.....I kinda doubt that. Likewise govts that allow and recognize political marriages, where 2 people against their will were married for the benefit of the state, even when 1 or both were children, would also be spititual marriages. What about govts that allow polygamous marriages? The point being principles are absolute, it the state determines when we are married or divorced, and God just rubber stamps it, and we say this is following God's will because of the render unto ceaser (which was essentially about taxes, and trusting God to provide for you anyways) thingy, then I guess God isn't all-powerful afterall. I could also go on for pages about other things the state may require of a citizen which we are not to obey, but I think you all can figure that out for yourselves....whatever marriage/divorce really is, one thing is sure, has nothing to do with the state, church ceremonies, or any other man-made rules or institutions, it is between us and God.<p>I can see why is is so attractive to look to the state, especially people who want to bind another into marriage with rules, but that has nothing to do with what marriage should be (the nurturing, mutually desired, spiritual union of 2 human beings), and everything to do with possesion, and/or dependentcy. Oneflesh cannot exist (IMO) unless it is egalitarian, and passionately desired by BOTH people, divorce occurs secularly, with a divorce decree, but spiritually it is a much more difficult concept, and IMO we must look in our hearts for the truth, not what we want, but the truth....and God will reveal whether we are in the right place or not, and it may not be the answer we want it to be, or even thought it should be......it may be we are not even supposed to be married at all....to anyone.<p>As for the be like Christ arguments. I understand them, but think they are missapplied. We are not Christ, never will be, and I don't think Scripture commands us to be Christ like. He came for a purpose, to save us.....to do so He had to explain that to us, and He did....and He lived His life long enough and in such a way as to leave enough proof that this was true to seperate the wheat from the chaff (believers, from non-believers). We are not commanded to marry at all, but if we do, we were provided examples (teachings, and commandments) about how it should feel, and look. It is up to us, in our freewill to determine out marital choices, and I assume if we err, to resolve them. <p>That resolution could be in changing ourselves, or it could be in recognizing we are not married....because we don't have sufficient intent/fitting/whatever to become oneflesh, or cause (if we did), freewill also allows sin, and one spouse left us (heart became hard, and God ended the oneflesh, setting us free)....He implies this specifically with examples re desertion, and adultery, I don't think those were meant to be a list of exceptions, but illustrative of His power re our oneflesh status. God also commanded us in no uncertain terms to not worship icons, or the larger sense legalistically, He was interested in us, and being close to us. <p>People who worship the institution of marriage, and feel God commanded them to love someone err badly IMO. Their focus is on the rules, not on the true nature of their attempted union with another. This is nothing more than pride, look at me and how pure I am living my life, sacrificially loving this person with a hardheart who has deserted me. God does not ask us to do such things, nor would He IMO, cause He stresses individual choice, if a spouse has a hardheart (for any reason), that is their choice, and they clearly lose their spouse. Not to say one cannot choose to keep working on such a person, and God may choose to answer your prayer someday and they come to love you, and possibly you become oneflesh....but for that time, you are not married, cannot be, cause the scriptural requirements for how marriage should be, are not being met....on purpose. <p>If that made no difference, then every abusive marriage should continue, and the suffering therein be a part of God's plan for someone, even the spouses who are murdered by their supposed oneflesh partner. Could be God's plan, but seems unlikely, cause it involves 2 people, you only have choice over yourself, and when you choose to eliminate one choice (that you can leave a marriage) you have usurped God's power, which in fact may include removing you from that marriage. <p>I think it is fine for people to make an effort to love whoever they want as man and wife, but they should look inside themself and see if it is pridefull (as in sacrificial, I will never give up/win, I want to be Christlike) or dependentcy (fearfulness to be alone again)...and in so doing we risk missing what God's plan really might be. And we overlook the notion of freewill and that God lets us choose who we relate too and how, and that his blessing (is related to how we choose and live in a marriage....meaning He might not be blessing it at all as well as actively supporting it). I dunno all this of course, and ultimately each of us has to talk with God ourself, and try to discern His will for us....but IMO worshiping marriage (as an absolute), an institution we enter into by freewill, makes no sense, cause freewill insure we err in life, and I see no reason why marriage would be exempt, and that God would just make the error go away by restoring. That is presumptious of us, if we look to Him for help, that help may very well be to remove us from the secular marriage (in a variety of ways), He has that power. God moves in mysterious ways...right? Nor does the Bible say God recognizes all marriages sanctioned by the state....ya know?

A few thoughts,
There is a difference between civil law (which establishted divorce) and God's law. Just because something is legal does not make it moral (ie abortion). Man established divorce.
From the very beginning God stated, "let man not separate".
There are only two reasons in the bible where one can divorce - adultery and abandonement. And there is much debate on those. BUT...there is not a case established for REMARRIAGE after the fact. In fact, Christ stated that the truths regarding marriage would be very hard to accept.
Where do I believe the Bible leans - one marriage and that's it. Only death dissolves the covenant. How did Jesus approach the woman at the well?

so okie, you think God only has "one" marriage for each? Maybe, so how do we know when we have done it right? When are you oneflesh...for sure? And when are you just trying to be oneflesh? Maybe remarriage means you can only marry right once, that fits as a hypothesis, but to understand that, we need a definitive answer when one is actually married, and not just living together in a state sanctioned condition. So how do we know when we are spititually married to the one God has in mind for us? And how do we interpret when a remarriage is successful (by all the usual standard), and if they aren't actually "married" what are they doing?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>so okie, you think God only has "one" marriage for each? Maybe, so how do we know when we have done it right? <p>OK answer - right has nothing to do with it.<p>When are you oneflesh...for sure? <p>OK answer - you are married before God when you are married before man (ie ceremony). Consumation seals the deal.<p>
SNL - So how do we know when we are spititually married to the one God has in mind for us?<p>OK answer - God gave us a brain and definitive guidelines in his word. God has a will for us not just in picking a marriage partner but for everyday life. The "it just didn't work out between us" excuse doesn't fly with him. <p>SNL - And how do we interpret when a remarriage is successful (by all the usual standard), and if they aren't actually "married" what are they doing?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OK answer - No where in the Bible is marriage reflected the way it is in our society. There is no guarantee for happiness unless you do it God's way. A successful marriage honors God. In our current society, we honor ourselves.

allright, maybe I need to rephrase, forget "right" but are you saying God has no marital plan for us, we are on our own, makes no difference who we "marry"?<p>ok...When are you oneflesh...for sure? <p>OK answer - you are married before God when you are married before man (ie ceremony). Consumation seals the deal.<p>Snl....Is this "ceremnony" defined anywhere Scripturally, and is it possible to invoke the cermemony in error? Can imperfect human beings, make marital errors? If so, what do we do about it? If it takes consummation to validate the "deal" what does that mean? If you are referring to a biological act, intercourse. Why is that mean anything in particular? And if it does, why is one not "married" to the first person they say they "love" want to spend life with, and proceed to bed with them?<p>ok...SNL - So how do we know when we are spititually married to the one God has in mind for us?<p>OK answer - God gave us a brain and definitive guidelines in his word. God has a will for us not just in picking a marriage partner but for everyday life. The "it just didn't work out between us" excuse doesn't fly with him.<p>snl...I agree pretty much. But are you saying our brains do not have the ability to recognize when we have erred maritally. What if I tell a woman I love her, want to marry her, and do so for the reason of possessing her sexually, and as my um...live in maid and such...in other words I sorta lied, I had no intention of being faithful, or oneflesh, just wanted a woman, and so tricked her into marriage.....is she now married to me? Bound by vows? This is her life forever, she cannot discern she made a mistake and free herself from me? Why would this be God's plan for marriage? I mean, it just didn't work out, right, so she can't go, cause "it" doesn't make any difference.<p>what about my brains? I am using them now, in wondering about this stuff, putting it to logical standards. Trying to discern what is mans interpretation of God's will, vs God's will, and I find a lot of issues, why is that? Do we just assume I am being self-serving? If so how do we tell okie (and anyone) isn't also wrong and self-serving in their interpretations? What do we use as an agreed upon standard for all this? My problem is Scripture does not specify an absolute definition of marriage, and how to know when it actually exists. But it does specify a lot of things that support the notion that marriage is not even remotely absolute, but is only another area human behaviour with a full range of spiritual truths, including that one may claim the "label" of marriage but not be married at all. <p>SNL - And how do we interpret when a remarriage is successful (by all the usual standard), and if they aren't actually "married" what are they doing?<p>ok...OK answer - No where in the Bible is marriage reflected the way it is in our society. There is no guarantee for happiness unless you do it God's way. A successful marriage honors God. In our current society, we honor ourselves. <p>snl...I suspect in ancient times there was plenty of prideful/selfish behaviour okie (in marriage and otherwise, people have not changed psychologically in 20,000 years). I do think the Bible did reflect todays concepts, have you studied the song of solomon and it's implications? I also think God's recurring examples of the importance of the truths in ones heart, and speaking to us there also have significance re marriage. I think you have hit on one of the stubling blocks, that people are not supposed to be happy in life. I disagree with that. God made us the way we are, and I do not think happiness is a sin, I think it is a gauge of how successful we are living our lives, and how close we are to God, and we are supposed to pay attention to our happiness, not worship martydom, or sacrifice just for the sake of sacrifice.<p>How did we ever get to where marriage is just a duty? Why be married at all?

to SNL,<p> Snl....Is this "ceremnony" defined anywhere Scripturally?
OK: No, but neither are many other ceremonies/practices/decrees. <p>SNL: and is it possible to invoke the cermemony in error?
OK: How so? We have countless years (which should be accompanied by much instruction) to prepare for that day. Most people know who they are marrying but decline to recognize the &#8220;red flags&#8221;. <p>SNL: Can imperfect human beings, make marital errors?
OK: For the most part, if they approach it incorrectly. <p>SNL: If so, what do we do about it? If it takes consummation to validate the "deal" what does that mean?
OK: At consummation, the blood convenant (until death) is established. Think about the blood part of it. <p>SNL: And if it does, why is one not "married" to the first person they say they "love" want to spend life with, and proceed to bed with them?
OK: Because they are not married. <p>snl...I agree pretty much. But are you saying our brains do not have the ability to recognize when we have erred maritally.
OK: If we erred maritally, there is still no reason for divorce. Civil law may say we are divorced, but the covenant remains intact. <p>SNL: Trying to discern what is mans interpretation of God's will, vs God's will, and I find a lot of issues, why is that?
OK: Like many of us &#8211; the conflict with social norms. God&#8217;s word is remarkably straight forward. <p>SNL: My problem is Scripture does not specify an absolute definition of marriage, and how to know when it actually exists.
OK: I don&#8217;t see it that way at all. Repeatedly it states one man, one woman for life. <p>snl...I suspect in ancient times there was plenty of prideful/selfish behaviour okie
OK: Yep. Not much has changed.<p>SNL: I think you have hit on one of the stubling blocks, that people are not supposed to be happy in life.
OK: You misinterpret what I say. Christ came that we may have &#8220;life more abundantly&#8221;. I am all for having a great life and prospering. I just don't look to other people anymore to build me up.<p>SNL: How did we ever get to where marriage is just a duty? Why be married at all?
OK: I think you can answer the first part. Who says we have to be married?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Okieman:
<strong>There are only two reasons in the bible where one can divorce - adultery and abandonement. And there is much debate on those. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>May I add a third if your spouse is a non-believer you are commanded to let them go if they wish (1st Corinthians 7, 10-16).<p>As to when are we divorced who the heck knows. My belief is that we are justified in divorce for the three above mentioned reasons along with abuse and addiction (a Dr. Laura moment). Further I believe that we are totally married before the eyes of God until we are legally divorced. But does our marriage truly end there? I don't have the scripture to back it up but I thought that I read that we are married until the other takes another.<p>So in my case, I was legally divorced on July 11th but I felt a need to continue my morale obligation past that. Now that I know for a fact that my X is "Getting Some" I no longer feel my obligation towards her as a husband. So now I truly do feel as though I am divorced in the eyes of God and furthermore I believe I will have His blessing should I choose to marry again.<p>Just my 2 pennies worth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LostHusband:
[QB]<p>May I add a third if your spouse is a non-believer you are commanded to let them go if they wish (1st Corinthians 7, 10-16).<p>I agree, which is what I meant by abandonment. Some tough points here which I personally am still trying to resolve.

<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>we are commanded to ignore the state when it gets between us and God... and what God put together no man can put asunder), it seems to me the state plays no role whatsover in whether we are married or not. <hr></blockquote></strong>
Hoooboy! I don't even know where to start! S_N_L - you are so FULL OF FOG, I'm not even sure I can see clearly myself to address all your diatribes.
We are commanded to "ignore the state" ?!?! WHERE did that come from? Then NO COURT OF LAW can declare us divorced! I LIKE IT!
As for "What God put together no man can put asunder..." I will save THAT "GOODIE" for later in this post.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Lastly a divorce decree is not the end, a marriage never really ends until one party (cause it only takes one) realizes the spiritual union does not exist..either cause God ended it (and He implied He could, and would, in Scripture....or it never existed cause oneflesh did not happen <hr></blockquote></strong>
USING YOUR ARGUMENT ABOVE THAT "NO MAN CAN PUT ASUNDER" THAT WHICH GOD HAS JOINED, then tell me how in the HECK (trying to be patient with you) can ONE PARTY end it?!?!?!?! You are using your own brand of fuzzy logic to come to your OWN brand of LOGICAL conclusions here. NONE OF IT makes any sense.
HE alone can "end it" and my own interpretation here is that HE ENDS IT BY DEATH ONLY. The ONEFLESH thingy is tricky. HOW does one determine that you are "one flesh"? MY (again, MY OWN interpretation here) is that that occurs during the consumation of the marriage. Sex. Is the ONE part of M that should NOT be "shared" outside of marriage, right? THE ONE EN that CANNOT be looked for outside the marriage. Conversation, recreational activities, admiration, even domestic support (not sure this is a true EN - my OWN opinion), you get the point. THE ONLY ONE we are NOT to "stray" in looking to fulfill is SF. That is why I believe THAT defines ONEFLESH.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2 people against their will were married for the benefit of the state, even when 1 or both were children, would also be spititual marriages. <hr></blockquote></strong>HUH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>then I guess God isn't all-powerful afterall. <hr></blockquote></strong>
Careful here. Enter into this kind of "logic" at your own peril.
<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>IMO we must look in our hearts for the truth, not what we want, but the truth....<hr></blockquote></strong>
YOUR OPINION DOES *NOT* MATTER. WHAT IS GOD'S TRUTH?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As for the be like Christ arguments. I understand them, but think they are missapplied. We are not Christ, never will be, and I don't think Scripture commands us to be Christ like. <hr></blockquote></strong>
Scripture MOST DEFINITELY commands us to be Christlike. Men are commanded in Ephesians to "Love their wives as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself up for it." Sacrificing EVEN THEIR OWN LIVES for it.
<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>We are not commanded to marry at all, but if we do, we were provided examples (teachings, and commandments) about how it should feel, and look.<hr></blockquote></strong> Yes, we are. I just gave one example. Do you have others? <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>People who worship the institution of marriage, and feel God commanded them to love someone err badly IMO. Their focus is on the rules, not on the true nature of their attempted union with another. This is nothing more than pride <hr></blockquote></strong>
What is wrong with feeling as though God COMMANDED us to love our spouses? I think most of us here are willing to admit (I know I am) that they are guilty of NOT loving their spouses as Christ loved the church, or be submissive to it (wives' duty) and THAT has led to the circumstances we find ourselves in today - here - on MB. IF we had followed the "RULES" (which you so evidently HATE) we wouldn't have loveless, lifeless marriages, where two people exist without the love, PASSION - as you call it - that we should be experiencing. THAT is God's perfect plan for all marriages. It's our own SIN that prevents that from being the norm. NOT FIT. NOT FREE WILL. NOT MARRYING THE WRONG PERSON. What a crock.<p> <strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>God does not ask us to do such things, nor would He IMO, cause He stresses individual choice, if a spouse has a hardheart (for any reason), that is their choice, and they clearly lose their spouse.<hr></blockquote></strong>
GOD DOES NOT STRESS INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. God stresses SACRIFICE, as in "Christ sacrificed even to HIS DEATH." YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, and don't want to get it.
Do you really think Christ FELT LIKE dying a horrible death on a cross for us????Just so we could continue to sin, turn hard hearts to Him, and curse Him and worse????? If it were about CHOICE, NO WAY would Christ have come and DIED the horrible death He did. NO WAY. There was NOTHING in it for Him. It was all to show US how sacrificial love acts.
<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think it is fine for people to make an effort to love whoever they want as man and wife, but they should look inside themself and see if it is pridefull (as in sacrificial, I will never give up/win, I want to be Christlike) or dependentcy (fearfulness to be alone again)...and in so doing we risk missing what God's plan really might be.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Ya can't be both "christlike" and I will win....at any cost. Christ didn't "win" for Himself. HE GAVE HIMSELF, His whole self. His body, broken, bleeding and death itself to GIVE us life. GIVE. THAT'S SACRIFICE, BUDDY. <p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>if we look to Him for help, that help may very well be to remove us from the secular marriage (in a variety of ways), He has that power. God moves in mysterious ways...right? Nor does the Bible say God recognizes all marriages sanctioned by the state.... </strong><hr></blockquote>
God has ALL POWER.....so if He does, don't you think He's "powerful" enough to KEEP us from getting involved with the WRONG person while we are "choosing a mate?" I think He did it for me! I DO NOT BELIEVE God will remove us from a "secular marriage." THE ONLY WAY I SEE GOD REMOVING SOMEONE FROM *ANY* MARRIAGE IS THE DEATH OF ONE OF ITS PARTNERS. And i've seen it happen enough times to believe it CAN happen.<p>Anyway, You've managed to get me good and angry this time. I think I'm done with this now. <p>Goodguy, to answer your question, my "take" on this (it you haven't already figured it out!) is that the answer to your original question is: NEVER! I don't believe we are ever divorced in God's eyes. I do believe, however, that if your spouse divorces YOU and marries another, THEY sin - maybe beyond repair for your m! BUT scripture seems clear enough that they must be welcomed back if they choose to come back at some future date, which means YOU (the BS) are not "allowed" - for lack of a better term - to go searching out a new partner. Sux, huh? I have wrestled with this all week-end, and that's where I am right now. Hope this doesn't muddle things any worse for you.<p>God Bless,
Lupo

SNL,<p>There are more than one scripture in the Bible stating to follow laws set forth by our Government other than just rendering to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar.<p>I know your views have changed from your early post but I have a question. I'm curious. Do you still feel just because you divorced your wife in your heart that you were divorced in God's eyes? If this is true then here's some more questions. What are you doing still living in your house with someone you aren't married to? How do you plan to file your taxes this year, divorced or married? <p>The bible talks of couples getting married in churches and talks of divorce documents. God discusses ceremonies and knows these are important for beginnings and closures. The bible discusses how a person can get a divorce document if their spouse commits adultery or if their spouse is a non believer and divorces them. The bible also states if we divorce for reasons he does not approve of, that we could and may have sinned. The Bible recognizes people can get a divorce document and it may or may not be approved by God. However, the Bible states a divorce document is needed to present to your spouse.<p>Some of the things you say still seem to be just your reiteration of trying to justify your sin of adultery. SNL, you commited adultery, God forgives us when we ask him to, you have asked him for forgiveness, if you know this is wrong and tell God this was wrong you and you will try hard to never do this again then you will be forgiven. <p>If you still think in your heart you were divorced when you committed adultery then here's my next questions. How can you have it both ways? If you were divorced in your heart and remarried this other person in your heart, you said you asked God to forgive you, well then...Why do you need to ask God for forgiveness?<p>SNL, it seems as if you try to follow the Bible but in other ways you try to follow your own thinking and justifications for your actions, thereby ignoring God's commandments. <p>When I read what your posts a parable comes to mind. So I decided to copy it for you. <p>
Mark 4<p>And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, "Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.
And He was saying, He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
<p>Here's basically what this parable is saying.<p>Some people who hear God's word are like the first seeds that barely hit the ground before they are eaten, they are so close minded to God's word they don't listen, and God's word doesn't stand a chance with them.<p>Other people who hear God's word and are like the second seeds that fell among rocky ground, their lives were so rocky that God's word didn't stand much of a chance in their hearts either. God's word never took root and died early. <p>The third seeds fell among thornes. They took root just like God's word did but was choked by all the bad things in life that had nothing to do with the purety of God's word. <p>Then the fourth group of seeds. This is where some people took God's word, studied his word and lived their life as God wanted. God's word sprouted and took root. As Christians they grew healthy and their roots were deep. As they grew they yielded more and more knowledge and became stronger and stronger as a Christian.<p>I am not putting you in any of these categories. Only you and God knows what is truly in your heart. I am only saying as I read your words, this parable keeps popping up in my mind, so I wanted to share it with you.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Hmmmmmmmm....I do enjoy a religious discussion, but even more so this is a vital issue for everyone who wants to live in intimacy with another. I will address lupo and annas points later (not enough time now), but plz, my usual disclaimer, I am in part struggling with this myself, and not sure of all this, and my thinking shifts around some, but I don't want to ignore it...ya know. So plz don't beat me up to much, or get too angry, just cause I don't agree, I will (and do) support my opinions, and none of us knows who is right, or even can know. So we should all be careful of the sin of pride, that we know God's will without error.<p>The underlying questions still remain lupo, you have not adequately defined when we are married, and I completely disagree that sex=consummation is untenable logically, and unsupported Biblically, which still leaves the question open, who can tell me with absolute certainty when spiritual marriage has occured? ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, if you cannot do this, you can not argue divorce opinions in terms of secular marital laws.<p>1. I reject the notion outright that the state defines when we are and are not married, so all arguments mentioning marriage licenses, or divorce decrees are meaningless. I somehow feel the better argument is that God reserves this discernment to Himself.<p>2. I reject the notion outright that sex has anything to do with whether we are actually married. Sex is a part of marriage, but it does not define marriage. (is it really necessary to prove this, come on guys).<p>3. I believe God has the power to divorce us, does anyone really want to dispute that? I hate divorce too, so should anyone, I also hate war, but am not going to lay down and die (not defend myself). I don't see God hating divorce as having anything to do at all with the leap to God forbids divorce (which again, depends on when the heck we are actually married anyways).<p>Just some basic notions, I will address all the other stuff later.<p>Hey one thing Lupo, you are a soldier, a minion of the state, and the state orders you to kill an unarmed person who is no threat to set an example for others who are not cooperating.....are ya gonna obey? If not, there is no further need for me to prove God commands us to ignore the state when the state gets between us and God.

Dear Goodguy,
As a born-again believer, I agree wholly w/Anna - you are NOT DIVORCED LEGALLY nor in God's eyes until you have that "Certificate."<p>It's in accordance with the 'law of the land.'<p>You both could live apart for yrs w/no DDecree existing - which states you are NOT DIVORCED...<p>This is just what I've read in the Bible and IMVHO... Hope you make thru all this divorce 'stuff' okay...<p>Best wishes, Jordan