Ok- it has been a VERY long time since I have posted here...I have some questions- and maybe this isn't even the right forum? If not- someone please direct me?<p>I post frequently over on I.com (log in is Peaceful & Focused)- but lately- I've been anything BUT that...<p>Someone there posted a thread about bullies- and passive aggressive tendancies in cheaters...I responded and she ended up emailing me alot more on it in terms of articles, etc...<p>It seems to shed ALOT of light on my situation- but I was wondering how it fits all into the scheme of Christianity...<p>I am waiting for insurance to kick in- and can't go to a regular counselor til after first of year...I asked my STBX if he would consider RELATIONSHIP counseling- (not marriage- long story short- he cheated LOTS- "turned his life back to God" and now wants our marriage- I'm planning to divorce him)<p>BUT- I want to know what I have done right and wrong- and what dynamics were playing out in our relationship- so that in the future- we don't make the same mistakes...<p>He is dead set on a Christian counselor- is Passive Aggressiveness even discussed among christians?? His two previous christian counselors (before our move) made it sound like his cheating was solely about his lack of a relationship with God- but I guess in my humanness- I think there are more regular old dynamics at play in it (as in personality tendancies and upbringing etc...- I think a relationship with God is only a piece of the puzzle).<p>Am I way off base? Does anyone know anything about this?<p>Any insight or advice would be appreciated- and if you need more info I can provide it- I only have a few minutes and wanted to get this posted...I haven't been here in so long- most people probably don't even remember my story??<p>I'm going to copy and past this post over on the Infidelity board also- because that is what has happened and what is ending my marriage and bring this all up anyway!! I hadn't even HEARD of passive aggressiveness until his cheating...<p>Thanks for your help and advice!
TLFM

I don't even know if this is allowed? But here is the link the lady gave me that gave me information on this "personality"..
It described my STBX to a "T" and explained alot of the problems in our marriage and why he has cheating tendancies (I'm talking ALOT of cheating over our ten year marriage)<p>It's at
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html<p>Please help me if you can???
Thanks again!
TLFM

Yes, you should be able to find a Christian counselor that is aware of Passive Aggressive behavior. If the Christian counselor is licensed. Also, just wanted to know why you want a divorce? Is it to make a wrong right? is it because you want to teach him a lesson? Is it because you think infidelity = divorce? Do you think it will bring you closure or peace? I am a Christian and I do believe in divorce but I think we always need to check the motive of our heart. I am asking this because really a piece of paper that says your divorced doesn't change anything. There is still feelings and healing that need to be worked through whether you stay with him or not. You don't sound sure if you want your relationship or not. That is why I am asking. My suggestion would be to work through the healing. Divorce him emotionally if you want - wait a couple years and see what happens. OR do you want the divorce because you want to start dating? Just keep in mind - no matter how wonderful the next guy is - 10 years down the road you can end up with someone worse than you had.

TLFM,<p>Your question regarding Christian counselors is a professional would know, Christian or not.<p>I've posted Galatians 5 here ALOT in the last couple of days. People are probably getting sick of it by now sooo sorry.<p>However, it is the answer to your question. So, sorry out there guys, I'm gonna post it again. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Galatians 5 is how we, as Christians, are suppose to know whether people are Christians or possibly someone deceiving us. Here's what it says.<p>17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.<p>Here's traits we should look for in Christians.<p>22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.<p>Verse 24, really has your answer to whether his behavior can be helped with Christianity. It is really stating that as a Christian you can crucify all the sins of passions and desires that often creep into a persons life little by little.<p>Although, you have to remember Christians are not perfect, they only strive for this, but never obtain it. However, as you grow as a Christian you can gain more and more of the good qualities and fight the bad qualities.<p>Good luck,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Hi,<p>Great link on Passive Aggressiveness! <p>Now to the question-- what does it change if you know that this disorder is what you are dealing with? Does it give you more understanding, in order to stay married? Does it give you a label- to use against your mate, or does it give you a filter in which to organize your OWN behavior ?<p>There are many Christian Therapists that are licensed/ trained to deal with a variety of issues-- but, when you look for one- you may want to seek one that specilizes in this disorder/ in the context of relationships.<p>That may be a tall order. The way I understand P/A behavior- is that it is a behavioral manifestation of the need to "control". <p>If the person believes he can't get it overtly - he goes "underground" to gain it covertly.
H/S will manipulate the
situation/circumstances/conversations/etc.,
to give justification for the "undergound" thinking and behavior. <p>The problem is that when therapists work w/ these types of people- the behavior can become self feeding. <p>There are numerous ways to control another-- most do it with the "in your face method"- (overt), but others take the tack of going "underground"- <p>"I will show you- or I will get even with you for causing me so much pain, and we will see who has more "pwer" in this relationship." <p>An example I can think of from my own relationship:<p>I always said I would never marry a controlling man- having grown up in male dominated family as the only girl of 5. My H was very clear on this- But little did I realize that control comes in different colors !<p>One day early on in our marriage, over 20 years ago- I got upset with him over something stupid- He made a comment about how he felt I always got "my way" over issues, and he got nothing. <p>This was on a weekend, and since he did the laundry- ( he chose this as one of his contributions to the workload), he usually did this on the weekend. That following Monday morning, I was getting ready to go to work as a teacher, and I noticed that my laundry basket was still full. <p>I HAD NO underwear! <p>I was really upset-esp when I noticed that he had done all the other laundry, including his own.<p>This was his meta message to me- that he felt
his needs weren't considered, that he had limited power in the relationship, and that I had all the power. <p>He needed to demonstrate that if he had little chance of being on an "equal playing field" in terms of relational power that was equal to what he perceived I had, then he would get it in other ways- even if that meant going underground to bring about some equilibrium of his power.<p>The problem with PA is that many fail to recognize that the methods they use to be acknowledged or to have control, power, intimacy, are self defeating- and the receipent of these behaviors- will often figure out another way around the madness- until the cycle replays itself again/ again. <p>What keeps the behavior going is the secondary
gains that the PA gets- <p>BREAKING THE CYCLE OF PA can only come from the receipent stepping out of the loop- not the relationship necesarily- but refusing to give the PA any reason to go "underground". <p>This is very difficult work. Let your words / boundaries be clear without engaging in the PA excuse making and blaming. Perhaps, explore some areas where you can give up some "control" and where you can empower your mate's needs for a level playing ground. This is akin to making some deposits in H love tank- and reduces his need to make justifications for going underground.<p>One of the biggest ways we act out passive-aggressive behavior- is to have an affair. The secrecy of an affair- gives the one having an affair "power" at the underground level.( ex: I don't have to be so needy with you or wait for you to meet my needs-I will find my OWN way to meet my needs. Thereby, you will not have that
"power" of me "needing you"- to use against me.)<p>Just a few thoughts to send your way.<p>D

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ITherapist:
<strong>
One of the biggest ways we act out passive-aggressive behavior- is to have an affair. The secrecy of an affair- gives the one having an affair "power" at the underground level.( ex: I don't have to be so needy with you or wait for you to meet my needs-I will find my OWN way to meet my needs. Thereby, you will not have that
"power" of me "needing you"- to use against me.)<p>Just a few thoughts to send your way.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi, ITherapist,
GREAT insights into PA personality! I learned A LOT about my WH's MO from this. <p>However, he is also a "conflict avoider" - unless the two go hand in hand? Can you comment on how many P/A personality types would also be considered conflict avoidance personality, and can the two be mutually EXclusive or INclusive?<p>TIA,
Lupo

Hi,<p>Hmmmmm, good question ! Mutually exclusive or inclusive?? They can work in tandem with each other-- however- someone who is conflict avoidant..isn't necessarily a P/A. Someone who exhibits P/A behaviors.....
will often also be conflict avoidant. <p>Does that make any sense?<p>I have to be careful..how I answer questions here.. cuz the other day I got blasted for being perceived as a Therapist here. <p>So let me state for the record, if there are any moderators cking the posts- I am NOT here as a Therapist. In fact, I often send patients here !! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The concern is that I might solict business.. NO WAY ! My plate is full!<p>So- I am glad the thoughts helped you-- <p>It is important to figure out what YOUR ROLE is in the way you engage your H. Are you indirectly feeding the pathology by your responses to his behaviors? This really needs to be examined from an honest evaluation.<p>Not dealing with conflict can be just a fear of the emotions that are elicited-- or it can be more than that- such as maintaining the perception of power over another-<p>It is important to understand that all behavior is purposeful-- all behaviors have "pay-offs"-- good behavior, and bad behaviors== the pay-offs are what maintain the behavior.<p>Ask yourself, when my H does this / that.. does my behavior/ response to that behavior maintian it.. or extinquish it?? Does it drive it deeper, or bring it to the surface?<p>D

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ITherapist:
<strong>someone who is conflict avoidant..isn't necessarily a P/A. Someone who exhibits P/A behaviors.....
will often also be conflict avoidant.
Does that make any sense?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, it does! My WH is P/A AND conflict avoider, so that's mainly why I asked! I thought maybe I was crazy to think he had both of these pathologies!!<p>
<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is important to figure out what YOUR ROLE is in the way you engage your H. Are you indirectly feeding the pathology by your responses to his behaviors? <hr></blockquote></strong>
OUCH!!! Not sure I can answer this honestly and quickly. I'll have to think about it more.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Not dealing with conflict can be just a fear of the emotions that are elicited-- or it can be more than that- such as maintaining the perception of power over another-</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is part of my H's mindset. He was very much the "peacemaker" in his household (his FOO), so he learned early on, that he best not engage against those so "skilled" at emotional blackmail. He just "withdrew" for safety's sake. His OWN perception of power over them....."P/A" !!!! Or conflict avoidance to "keep the peace."<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Ask yourself, when my H does this / that.. does my behavior/ response to that behavior maintian it.. or extinquish it?? Does it drive it deeper, or bring it to the surface?<p>D</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OUCH again!! I think my responses to his beh. changed over the years....partly due to frustration of MY not getting his behaviors changed and partly because of "boredom," or "detachment" at not getting "through to him." Lots of what I was doing more recently was driving him "underground" - hence the start of his PA.<p>Hmmmm. LOTS to chew on here.....<p>Thanks so much for a view from the other side....<p>Lupo

Thank you to those of you that took the time to read (ha and probably re-read!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) my questions and respond...I printed out your responses, the PA article (thank you to the lady who kindly sent me to that site- you know who you are [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) and I think I can take a stab at this some more.<p>Actually- a brief background of this..My STBX grew up with very strict, controlling parents- they choose his clothes, his music, his TV..They sent him to very controlling christian schools and college where even the length of your hair was measured!!!...by the time I "got him"- he had only been graduated from college for 4 months, and had never lived anywhere but with his parents. I was 19- he was 21 when we married..I THOUGHT I was getting myself a great, loving, christian guy. Wow- what an eye opener this has all been!!!<p>A little less than 2 years into our marriage it REALLY changed...I was not the perfect wife- but I literally tried EVERYTHING under the sun- from changing my looks, every which way, maintaining the home, cooking, kids, etc...and I could never figure out what was the matter...the more I tried- the more he became literally EVERYTHING the article on PA traits describes (and then some)...Come to find out- he had started to cheat on me, when I was at my thinnest, in a beautiful new home, and financially we were doing great....That was almost 6 years ago..<p>I had told him from the start- the ONE thing I would divorce him for would be cheating...(my dad cheated repeatedly on my mom and I found out at age 11- no one knew until I was 20 that I knew)- but I always thought that my H and I had a clear understanding that we would let eachother go first, if someone else "better" came along...he knew how devastated I was by my past and childhood, and he, after all, was my best friend right?? He'd promised to love and protect me!! Little did I know that my "if you ever then I will divorce you" threat would come back and bite me bad!!<p>Basically- he got ratted out in Jan- he lied about it all day- said it was one person- not sexual, etc...I felt like there was more he wasn't telling- so after another month passed- I lied to him and told him I'd received another phone call..He was out of state and finally broke down on the phone and told me the truth- almost 10 OW- over the past 5 1/2 years (so it started when I was about 23)- and sometimes several going on at once...All VERY surface in nature- from what I can tell- he never told them he loved them, and once they wanted more, he broke it off....I never knew any of them and to this day don't know anything about them or what all happened- all ages- all cheap sex- all customers, co-workers and employees (1 girl tried to have him fired too)...He had jeopardized EVERYTHING (even the health of my baby girl because he was with two while I was pregnant for her)- All the while having sex with me, all the while treating the kids and I HORRIBLY, all the while looking me straight in the eyes saying "NO- I WOULD NEVER DO THAT" blah blah blah blah....<p>Anyway- <p>I told him to come, collect his things, that I would be civil, move where his job took him (he was in the middle of a job change), and that I was giving him his freedom. Well- within about three days- he had "decided" that he was turning his life over fully to God- and that he loved me and wanted me.. He has been "loving me and wanting me" ever since- infact, he has made statements like- "even after you divorce me, I will be faithful to you, etc..." I can't believe he loves me now???? <p>His dramatic changes have really confused the issue for me- because I was expecting him to bolt...but when I read the article on PA- and also in talking with others who have gone thru it- I realized that maybe this was another form of "controlling" me?? I don't want to just shrug and be like "ok- forget it- I won't divorce you..." only to have him change back to the OLD WAYS in a couple of years. I love him- but I CAN NOT LIVE THIS WAY!!!<p>That brings me to-<p>Notheard: I KNOW that divorcing him will not bring peace and closure fully for me. Infact, it is not even because I want to start dating right away either!! I am only 30- and honestly? I may "talk" a big game- but I can see that this has cut me very deeply- and I will not be in ANY shape to take my baggage to the next relationship without getting things taken care of within ME first...Part of it IS, I will admit, to "teach him a lesson"...My kids (12,9&4) know of what has happened- and I also want them to see that this is NOT appropriate in a relationship, and that their are often consequences to your actions and selfishness and sin....His loving me and serving God these past 8 months though- really confuses me now- will it go away? Will it stay? What if I let him "have me back"- then he has "controlled" me right back into his game again!! <p>I am going to be going to a counselor ASAP in Jan to try to sort this out...I do love him, but don't think I can spend the next 40 years of my life playing that kind of a game- I honestly would rather be alone..<p>Which of course, brings me to Anna2000:<p>I KNOW that God's touch can change many people, and cover a multitude of things...I am just so fearful that it's the HUMAN that will screw it up! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] LOL I mean- his counselors made it sound like the whole thing was entirely because he lacked a relationship with God- and he only went to them for two months before we moved (and hasn't resumed counseling since)- I just don't see how a chronic cheater- and if the articles are right- a PA personality with a background of being majorly controlled- can be ok now?? How do I let my future and trust be dependent on the status of HIS relationship with God alone? In the next 40 years he is bound to falter- and cheating and lying are things he is comfortable with (you know- there are things in my moral makeup that i just WOULD NOT do- even if not a christian)...I don't want to "put God in a box" either though- because I know that He has power to do many things...<p>This whole situation has been a major blow to my faith, and I am so afraid now....<p>I thank you for those verses though... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ok- ITherapist [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
I am about 8 months past D-Day...still waiting to be divorced (long story too- infact, if I really gave you all of the circumstances of WHY I'm still waiting- you would probably laugh because they all INDAVERTENTLY point back to HIM and his choices, etc....)- Suffice it to say- I can't file until January (residency laws)- and when I do- he can't even move out until our lease is up- because when we sold our home andmoved here- we won't have enough financially for him to move out AT ALL...even cutting every corner we could!! That means- that when all is said and done- I MIGHT have seperation from him almost 18 months to TWO YEARS AFTER D-DAY!!!<p>Ok- ANYWAY-
The reason I was wondering how this all fit in to counseling- is because I REALLY want to figure out my part in this whole thing too!! And also- if christian counselors ALL beat the "it's all about God and only God" drum??<p>If I can figure out some of the- as he likes to refer to it- "psychobabble" terms and tendancies- then I will be able to look back on the past ten years and see what I have done wrong and fix it for a future relationship, and what I was doing right- so that I know that maybe I did SOMETHING ok???<p>I wish I had the space to post a thread I put on the other site...it was about what I SAY and what he HEARS....basically- no matter what I have EVER (literally EVER) said or done, it is immediately perceived by him as negative towards me...<p>For instance- I said to him: "I will move wherever your job takes you"<p>He hears: "Oh- so you aren't happy with this place?"<p>I say "Come look at these awesome house plans- wouldn't it be so much fun to build one someday"<p>He hears: "Oh- so this house isn't good enough??"<p>and it goes on and on- Every word out of my mouth is thought to be a direct slam on him..
He told me last week that he "has never felt like he was good enough for me or could be around me because of it", etc.... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I try to praise him, support him, etc...it never works- I can write him a WHOLE letter of praise and encouragement- and he will pick the one thing that might even remotely be negative towards him and use it against me...it is like he is projecting his poor self esteem on me and making it my fault or something??<p>Well- when I THINK I'm trying hard to meet his needs (which BTW- HE NEVER EVER EVER would reveal to me his needs EVER!!!) in every way possible from looks to food to sex to space to snuggling to activities to......he is only perceiving EVERYTHING I do negatively!!!! I can't climb in his head and change his perception- and I was wondering about all this PA stuff- because I didn't know how much of it is/was ME- and how much of it is/was HIM, you know? He takes responsibility for his affairs- but I can see how his mind works to build me into a negative hateful vindictive person who "never loved him"- and I can see that it won't be long before he is looking for more OW to stroke his ego!!!<p>On top of all that- I have caught him "slipping" back into little white lies or withholding the truth about things...<p>I guess I DO need to label him- so that I can label ME to- and get things fixed- that is why I'd like to atleast do a few relationship counseling sessions- even if ultimately I AM going to divorce him and try to let some healing take place.<p>You mentioned "giving up control" so that he doesn't take it underground....Honestly? I can remember many many times throughout the past ten years that I tried to give him the reins...infact, I think the first half of our marriage NO ONE had the reins- because I was waiting and encouraging him to take control, he wouldn't do anything- so I just kept my mouth shut and let it go- but two houses, lots of debt, cars, jobs and three kids later- I realized he wasn't going to at all- so then I ended up having to hoist the load- and I KNOW at that point- I didn't keep my mouth shut. I can remember saying "you are the one with 16 years of christian education- why don't YOU make sure the kids are in church, or have devotions with them? or teach them about the bible!!" I feel like I've been a single parent for the better part of 10 years!!...<p>I am worried about divorce too- he SAYS he will take care of us- yet it worries me sick that I will have to rely on his part financially- to make ends meet...he is a classic example of not coming thru when someone is EXPECTING something from him....<p>Are there any Christian books out there that deal with all of this?? So that I can read them, and share them with him if he would want them? Because he really is dead set against believing his affairs were anything more than a lack of a relationship with God...<p>I have been numb and angry for 8 months- now I feel completely hopeless for a future...<p>I want to start this healing process the best way I can and get past this stupid confusion- get some things "labeled" I guess- and get myself fixed and FREE to heal and be strong for my kids...I can't keep walking around like a zombie basket case loser...<p>Thanks again- all who responded!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I know my response back is incredibly long- thanks for your patience- and maybe there is a hope after all huh?? It is so late and I am tired- I'm sorry if I talked in circles some here!!!<p>Thanks again!!
Love to you!
TLFM

Well Honestly to me it doesn't sound like only a "God" problem..Just take it to the cross..leave it at the cross..Grrrrrrrr...OH how I detest that..<p>God does not want us to just take our problems and drop them at the foot of the cross..I have yet to find that anywhere in the Bible..and ppl wonder why they don't grow in Christ..and have lasting changes in their lives..They didn't 'fix' the problem they had..they just dropped it at the imaginary foot of the cross and expected God to pick it up for them and carry it for them..<p>The God I have come to know and Love doesn't work this way..He tells us what His responsibilities are..and what ours are..and He won't take on ours..and we shouldn't try to take on His..<p>God says to share our burdens..not give them away..but to share them..tell others about them allow them to help us figure out how to fix our problems don't tell them to someone and expect them to do all the work and expect yourself to change..(Gal 6) So anyone who is a Christian Counselor and says differently is going against the Word of God--<p>Now, as far as why he is the way he is..this is what he learned as a child..Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he shall not depart from it..(proverbs 22:6) if he was trained/taught wrong..then thats what he knows, that is what he learned as a child..
everything that is wrong..so what is a person to do?? They turn to the creator to find out what He says is right..ask him to search our hearts and see where we need to change..what is wrong in OUR thinking based on what we were taught as children..and learn what is right so that we can have the lasting changes in our lives and grow in Christ in the process..<p>You know that old record that plays over and over in your head..in the voice of your parents??? It's time to change that record..and let God put a new one on for you..or let Him record over the old one..so going to church alone isn't going to fix the problem..trying to make the changes yourself and basically play acting the Christian life isn't going to work..<p>so many ppl have this picture in their mind of how they think a Christian should act..so they put on their best sunday clothes and act like they think they should..and yet they never took off the filthy rags that they were wearing before they put on these "new clothes" they just put them on over top of them..they never throw the old clothes away they hang on to them like a security blanket afraid that if they threw them away they are going to miss out on something..<p>And it sounds like this is what you are afraid of I can relate to the fear that you have w/ this in your spouse..how do YOU KNOW THE CHANGES ARE REAL and He's Not Acting?? How do you know that He's really changed his clothes and isn't still wearing those old grimy jeans under those nice dress pants?? or that old grungy t-shirt under that new silk shirt?? How do you know the OLD MAN is really gone?? and the NEW MAN You see before you isn't really the OLD MAN just wearing a fake mask??<p>Am I right??? <p>Well, the only way to tell is over time..nobody changes over night..it's a process of learning
and growing..it takes really looking back at our past and what we learned be it right or wrong..and figuring out what needs to be thrown out..(or killed off) because it's a matter of dying..the old life passed away..thats death..and becoming a new creation in Christ..being born again..so that we can relearn everything just like a new born baby..we need to drink the milk..so that we can build up the calicum for our teeth to grow so that we can begin to eat the meat and veggies..
and then we learn to crawl (having others teach us about Christ-listening skills) then we learn to walk (sharing Christ w/ others and learning to share our burdens- Communication skills) then we learn to run (going out and ministering to others, sharing each others burdens and offering to help when we can) it's a growth process just like a new born baby..<p>Some ppl grow-up faster than others..if they are willing to first look at their past life and work through those problems and the old belief systems..and are willing to allow God to scrub them clean of those old grungy clothes..to get all the stains out..sure you will see blood stains, war wounds, and battle scars (the blood of Christ)but when it's all over with..you'll see a bleached white shirt that looks like it was just bought brand new from the store..<p>So if he is really changing..really allowing God to heal his soul..he will start apologizing for things he did wrong in the marriage..He will start taking responsibility for his past actions..and seek your forgiveness in these things..he will begin to relate to you differently he will relate to his co-workers differently, he will even learn to relate to his foo differently..in time..<p>[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

ThornedRose...
THANK YOU SO MUCH for words I needed to hear this morning!!! They washed over my soul like fresh spring water!! They also made me feel like maybe I wasn't so crazy after all! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You are right- I am VERY afraid...I'm afraid of the past repeating itself- I've seen it time and time again in so many couples who have "reconciled" and gone to counseling and now "serve God"<p>I'm afraid that my H learned SO WELL how to talk the TALK of it (I mean- 16 years of christian education..he learned how to talk it!)- that he while NOW he SEEMS to walk the walk- that it won't be long before it is all talk again- that is what happened the first time around.<p>I'm afraid that even though I see alot of awesome changes in him- during times of stress (this past month our "tenth anniversary" came and went and he started a new job, etc..) that when I break down and can do nothing but lay on the bed sobbing...he subtley uses my words against me, lies to me (or rather- withholds the truth) and then walks away...He also has clammed right up and is no longer open and expressive to me about his feelings...I feel like every day his changes are going away- but he is verbally blaming ME for that because he says I have walls..<p>(which of course I have walls at this point- good grief! he cheated on me 6 out of the 9 years of our marriage with almost 10 other people and he was supposed to LOVE ME!!)<p>Which of course is another thing I'm afraid of- How can God move so quickly? How can he hate me, act like he hates me with his words, looks, actions (lots of actions), and then when I tell him to LEAVE he changes his mind???? That makes me very leery because while I see that God can work quickly and swiftly- I just don't see how this man I've come to know can shift gears so fast- it makes me wonder if he isn't just "not wanting to lose me"- and "doesn't want others to have me" because he DOES have a fear of being alone.<p>There are so many dynamics at play here..so many things a counselor and God need to help me/us sort out...<p>I don't think there is any changing my mind at this point about divorce- but I do want to heal- and honestly? I love my H enough to not want to see him taking destructive personality tendancies- or affairs, lack of intimacy, etc. into ANY OTHER RELATIONSHIPS!! Not with a future wife, not with his kids, not with friends...This might sound stupid- but I almost feel SORRY for all of the OW- because they got used and burnt and hurt as well (not all of them- some where content with the one afternoon of sex thing) but....<p>Thank you again for your words- for your strength and showing me that there can be a balance between- throwing it all on the altar, and taking some practical steps also, to insure it stays a "life changed"<p>Love and prayers,
TLFM

I didn't read all of the responses but I heard you ask for Christian Book recommendations: Here are a few of my favorites: "Tough Love" by James Dobson. All the boundaries books by Henry Claude and Robert Townsend: "Boundaries", "Boundaries in Marriage" "Boundaries in Dating", "Boundaries with Kids". And also by Henry Claude and Robert Townsend: "Safe People". Hope this helps.

Too Late For Me -<p>WOW!!! What an eye opener your post was. With the exception of the affairs, your husband could be mine (and I'm not sure if my H has had affairs or not - everything leads that way).<p>PArticularly the part about what you say being turned around and used against you, and him doing things but NEVER taking responsibility. Him never taking the leadership in the home, then being angry and going behind your back to undermine your ability to handle things - when he wanted control but wouldn't take it.<p>I went into a Plan B/ Plan D when he moved out in May - sliding back into communication with him a couple of times - but essentially it's been a matter of just letting go, which wasnt' difficult for me - but he seems to be having a problem with it. He's called asking me to go to counselors, etc. several times, but when we go, it comes down to - am I going to do what he tells me to do all the time or not. I'm not going to change my lifestyle so he can be 'in control' at this stage of the game. I would let him take over slowly, but there is a trust issue there - he has never provided for the kids and I, so letting go of my job at this time, and waiting to see if he can/will do it is pretty scary. <p>I guess it's the same situation as yours, in that there is quite a discrepancy between his past history and what he says he wants to do in the future. Bad situation.<p>No advice here - just wanted to let you know you are not alone.<p>Jan

Another thought here - <p>My H knew how to talk the talk, walk the walk - so well, that he had our counselor convinced at one time that I might actually be 'paranoid' - until I met seperately with the counselor and explained some of the problems to him without H there. Counselor was amazed at the difference, when he was watching H play him. <p>Many people have told me how lucky I was to be married to H - then later, when they caught onto his game, told me I should leave.<p>Even now, he's made such a play for 'counseling' that he's got some people convinced that he's the nice guy... He went to our church, and has made it a point of building friendships. Some of the people have told me that I should make up with him. But, those who know the other side, have told me differently. They've said he will tire of this game soon and it will change a lot of things.<p>It's a long road - and it isn't easy.<p>Jan

Notheard-
Thanks for the book suggestions...I am going to read read and read some more until I can get into counseling! I will email you directly this weekend when I get a chance- now, of course, he "catches" me emailing and he sulks and gets mad (groan!)- his complaint- "how great that I've made all of these FRIENDS and he has no one to talk to " [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>SeekingJoy2...
Did you check out the link above about PA behaviour (not physical affair- passive aggressive [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) I was amazed at it all!!! I printed it out last night and went thru it- I took one highlighter and highlighted EVERY characteristic that applied to my H for the past 10 years- I COULD NOT BELIEVE IT!! My whole page was filled with Yellow (for him)-<p>I also took and went thru what applied to ME...yet another explanation to life!!! OH MY!! I have some work to do too...but atleast I know I'm not crazy!!!! The whole thing has helped me have real definitions for my situation- instead of walking around feeling like I'm all alone!!<p>It is funny you mentioned how everyone "loves" your H- at church, that is always how mine was too..."hey- teach this class- hey run for the board- he run the sound? hey- lead this men's group" and on and on....But even now- he has a really hard time getting past surface and being REAL...that is why, in my opinion, he has a hard time making friends....<p>People want REAL- I tried to let him know all of the time that I loved HIM...It was VERY visible for me- when he would be one way at home, or in public towards me, yet when family or aquaintences would come up to him- he TOTALLY changed his demeanor- he was friendly, his voice and laugh got louder, he would talk and talk and talk, etc....I used to even kid with him and say "you talk nicer to the telemarketers than you do me!"- it was true though....<p>It sounds like you are doing a good job at "stepping out of the loop"- I think ITherapist mentioned- it doesn't always mean you have to step out of the relationship!...<p>I know how fearful you must be about handing him over the control though...Because that is the PROBLEM- no he will KNOW you are expecting him to step up to the plate, support the family, etc...and usually- that is what makes them act out in all the other ways to undermine your expectations!!<p>Man [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm getting pretty good at this stuff! hehehehe LOL<p>Thanks for your response!! Keep us posted on how your situation goes ok??<p>TLFM

Too Late For Me,<p>I am thankful that what I said helped you emotionally..and helped you not feel crazy..
b/c your not..Your normal..and you have a right to be leary about things based on past experience you
need to know that before you can go back that things REALLY are going to be different..that he's had a Heart Change and not just a superficial "I'm doing this because it's what I'm supposed to do"<p>I've have learned so much the past five years..about Christianity and my views about God..<p>God wants a personal relationship with us, just as we want with other people..He wants to be our bestfriend our confidant but, He doesn't want us to never tell anyone else about Him..and keep Him a secret..like we are ashamed of Him..<p>God wants to be apart of all of our relationships not just our "church" ones- No, He doesn't expect us to talk about Him all the time..but He does want us to talk about Him and to Him.<p>Just like we as spouses want in our marriages..we don't need to be with them 24/7 but we need to know that we can share our deepest hurts with them and not have them used against us..Not fixed for us, but just have someone to share them with and let us know that they care..that someone is there to just wrap their arms around us and hold us and say. It's going to be okay, we can work through this 'together' and not leave one or the other left feeling like nobody cares..God gives us other people so that we have someone with 'skin on' that can be there for us when we need those things..<p>It starts w/ our FOO, and then our peers at school
and our Church families and our spouses..if we lack that in any area we feel lonely and like nobody cares..and if we lack that in our FOO, then we grow up believing that if our own parents don't love us, or that the only way they love is if we have to 'earn' their love..then that is how we will see everyone..and that is how we will relate to others..and what is really sad is that
So many churches lack in this area..they teach the
"leave it at the cross" garbage and they don't encourage the deep sharing of themselves with others..they don't give the hugs and the ppl act cold and indifferent..which is why so many ppl think Christians are hypocrites..because they have this image of God and how they think Christianty should be that they quit going to church and don't bring what they feel is missing in the family to them..so they hold back..because everyone else is..they are afraid of what everyone else will think of them that they forgot all about God and what His word says..to share our burdens..<p>Right now, you need to stop looking at your husband and quit worrying about what he's doing or not doing..and look at you and what God wants for YOU..worry about what God thinks about your actions..are they pleasing to God? God understands you don't trust your husband..and He respects that..God doesn't tell you to trust that your husband will never leave you--He says "I will never leave you nor forsake you" <p>He can't promise you that your spouse won't..thats not His promise to make..all He can do is tell us what He will do, and what He wants us to do..were not to be concerned about if others are doing what God says..just if we are..<p>So take your eyes off him and quit making him an idol in God's place in your life by wondering if you can trust him..if this change is real..because the only one's who know for sure right now..is God and him..if the changes are real..he will have to prove that..by being faithful..just as God does time and time again..and some ways that you two can work together on that is learning to communicate your own feelings to each other and not judging them or saying No you don't..just say..Okay..what can I do to help you not feel that way, to help you feel more secure? One way is the radical honesty that the Harley's teach..<p>An example..would be..<p>You went to the store and you ran into an old boyfriend..you walked out of the store with each other talking..<p>Now you go home and your h asks where you were and you say..I went to the store..<p>This is the truth..but, because your h doesn't like this person you don't tell him you ran into the old friend..<p>Now a week later someone tells your husband that they seen you leaving the store w/ another man..
laughing and joking and whatever..but..they don't see you get into seperate vehicles when you leave.<p>So your spouse has two pieces of the truth..they know you were at the store because you told them that..but..NOW they know you were with a man when you left..<p>Whats the assumption?? that your hiding something
from them..which is why you didn't tell them that you ran into the OP at the store..<p>Now..had you when asked said..Oh I went to the store..and Oh I ran into so and so..and we talked for a few minutes, and share a little of the conversation..<p>you've shared ALL of the information..there is no room for the assumptions later if someone says..they seen you w/ another man..and it helps subside his fears that something happened between you and that you aren't trying to hide something from him..<p>And in a healthy relationship if he feels jealous..he should say that..and then you can assure him through your actions and your words that he has nothing to worry about because you love him.. <p>In an unhealthy relationship one usually goes off in a jealous rage..and start accusing even if you've been honest, and it doesn't matter what you say or do they won't believe you..
but those are their feelings of insecurity that they need to work through..<p>So your husband is going to have to prove over time..that he's changed, and you can remove yourself from the situation either by divorce or seperation or you can stay in the marriage and see if the changes are real...<p>thats what Boundries are for..to stop allowing yourself to be hurt by another persons actions and words..this is what I will accept this is what I won't..and if you can not help me in this area then this is what I am going to do..

OK- so what you are trying to say is that I need to QUIT trying to fix it??<p>LOL- just kidding!! I know what you are saying...<p>You are right- I DO need to get my eyes back on God- my faith has suffered a terrible blow thru all of this...Back in May of 6 years ago- I was struggling badly and asking my H to go to counseling, etc...I laid him out before God and basically said "Ok- God- he is yours, I can't do this alone, I will love him every way you show me how- but he is yours"...within about a month- is when all of his cheating started...<p>I have been really struggling with feeling betrayed by both him AND God...When D-Day hit- I was drawn closer to God- but as soon as my H decided "hey- maybe I WILL SERVE GOD NOW- and I love you now so let's make this work"- I will admit it made me VERY angry....I didn't want to see him lost and heading to hell- but how is it fine that now because HE snaps his fingers, I'm supposed to "let it go"...<p>I guess I'm being stupid- like the oldest brother in the prodigal son- I know it- I just am fragile and stubborn...<p>You used that analogy perfectly- this happened, quite recently in fact,<p>He was at the Y working out- early early morning- Later in the day he called me from work and this is what he said "well- I was running late so I was going to call you and have you get (our son) up to go to school- but instead Ijust came home"....<p>The thing is- the phone did ring- it rang once- and I said so to him.. Then he says "Oh- wait- wait a minute- oh year- I guess I do remember calling you- but I didn't think it went thru so I just hung up"!!!<p>I'm thinking ok??? You spent 6 years lying blatantly to me- why are you taking 500 steps back with this stupid little lie?<p>I'm also thinking why is it easier to just lie than to tell the truth about this? And what is going to happen regarding the "big stuff"?<p>More and more I see that we have a VERY dysfunctional relationship..<p>I'm going to work long and hard to get myself back in God's plan, trusting him again (wince!) and not worry about what my future holds...<p>I know divorcing him won't fix my problems- but I honestly, think it is a step in the right direction..<p>Thanks for your help and directness!!<p>TLFM

Hi Everyone:<p>Whew... I missed alot somehow..You guys are doing a great job dealing with this issue... ya don't need me.. but I will put another two cents in anyway. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Let's see.. the issue of all Christian Therapists beating the drum of getting your relationship back in line with the Word, or the Lord' as the answer to everything"..<p>Welllllll<p>I can't speak for all Therapists-- there are many that enspoused that view.. But I am not them, nor are there any colleagues that I know of that have that view... but then again, it is my opinion, that Cslers that stick to that view, are prob limited in their abilities to see the roots, or deeper pictures of conflicts and are into csling 101 techniques. <p>This is not to minimize the spiritual component- but as I have said previously, we are more than one-demensional people. <p>There just isn't a one size fits all answer.. and cslers that engage only in that kind of thinking--are not worth the payment/ or your time.<p>Harsh, yes.. but I have experienced Therapists like this.. and have even had some Interns who I supervised , that had this mindset.. sorry-- they need to grow in the therapy skills, and stop trying to put either GOD< or the couples in conflict---- into a nice neat box !<p>Re the need to see a therapsit in Jan:<p>Many nonprofits Christian Csling agencies have low fee/ pro bono slots to see clients in crisis. You may want to ck this out.. instead of waiting till Jan.. if you can afford to do this.<p>We have a term for your husband's behavior.. but I can't print it here.. It is a form of mind----. It is a way of making the other person feel like their head has just been sent thru the
"spin cycle". It is crazy making- and this is why I suggested you disengage from the LOOP.<p>The PA lives/ operates in a place of skewed distortions, and thinking.. and the only way they are comfortable with who they are, is to bring you into their lair--feed you the same distortions...so that their skewed thinking is yours. This reinforces their thinking, reinforces the pathological behavior, and feeds the disorder. <p>Their behaviors/ thoughts/ feelings about situations are "learned" behavioral responses,
w/ purpose of maintaining some psudeo semblance of "control". (ex: "I have been controlled all my life- but now that I am adult, I will call the shots, and create my own kingdom of power, according to me and my terms") <p>Anyone going against his terms, are seen as adversial, so his "fight" or resistance mechanism kicks in--which is manifested with p/a behaviors... until your resistance is broken, or he has achieved the desired goal of making sure you know who has the power.) <p>His behavior, I suspect comes from his FOO, and lack of choice, power, and opportunities to experience / fail/ succeed at choices he made.. or rather, choices he didnt' get to make for himself. ( christian schools, the "shoulds", "oughts", etc.) <p>AGain, this is purely conjecture.. given some of the stuff you described about his FOO--<p>The big thing to know is what is your ROLE in all of this? Look at what areas create resistance in him? If you truly can't find any--then make the decision to "step out of the loop". <p>This "stepping out of the loop" or the crazymaking is easier said then done, and it is different for different people. <p>This cycle will continue it's "looping"
( re-playing) as long as someone feeds it.. if no one feeds it, and the PA can't find resistance , he will often create his own, to begin the "feed" cycle again.. which helps reduce his anxiety, and returns him to place of familiarity.( affairs, lying, etc.) <p>The only way I know a PA can truly have healing in these types of behaviors, is the recognition that this behavior no longer serves it's purpose that it once did... of course, the Lord can do anything in healing someone, or opening the eyes of someone.<p>But the person engaged in this kind of relationship needs to be real clear with their boundaries.. so clear, that it hurts to sometimes to implement them. For instance, figure out what the "non negotiables" are in your relationship with him. <p>WHAT is negotiable, what isn't. (EX: Affairs is a non negotiable- if he violates that- then what are the consequences---- dirty laundry on the floor is that something you can live with, or not? Lying, or ??? )

YOu asked about books.. let's see. Someone mentioned the BOUNDARIES books.. by John Townsend, Cloud.. These are great.. JOhn is personal friend of mine.. His stuff is excellent.<p>Another book is Difficult People-- forgot the author and another is High Maintenance People.. by Parrott. The latter is more light weight book on different types of people that are difficult to deal with.<p>One thing that you need to consider-- is this a pervassive way of being for your husband ? Is it chronic ? Or is it situational ? This will tell you alot about whether these behaviors are just behaviors, or if it has become a PA Personality Disorder.. which is tough to treat.<p>I know it must feel so horrible to be in the position that you are in right now-- and wonder if another 20-30 years is worth it. <p>Like it or not, some of us are married to people with pervassive problems.. and each of us has to decide what our level of committment is to dealing with it. <p>No one walks in your shoes-- If his behavior is toxic enough, that it is destroying your family, then your boundaries need to be solid enough to keep from being sucked into that hole with him... thus the comment on "stepping out of the Loop". <p>Let him manufacture his own resistance, and create his own self defeating world,..strenghten your boundaries around yourself, kids to make sure that his crazy making doesn't contaminate your thinking... until he can see that this behavior no longer serves the same purpose as it once did. <p>This does not mean dumping the marriage, but working on you, your role with him, and creating some healthy parameters in which he must honor, if he wants to deal with you.<p>I will pray for you, as you search out a Wise Therapist who can support you in all of this. YOur friends at MB can hold you up in this- assist in bringing more resolve to your decisions.<p>I think the important thing to do here too.. is to remind him in a loving, gentle, but firm way, at various intervals.. that he does have the choice.. let him freely make that choice--but his choices will impact yours..<p>Blessings,
D<p>Blessings,

LOL...Yes..thats what I am saying..You can't
'FIX HIM' you can only work on yourself..and YOUR relationship with Christ..<p>If I haven't suggested it already..but I think I have..get the book Boundries..and read it..
(LOL..hate to see you spend your money and then not actually read the book)<p>No,Seriously it is really a good book and can open your eyes not just in your relationship with your spouse, but with others as well..it will also change your relationship with God and help you see Him differently..It was a real eye opener for me..in many ways..

Itherpist,<p>Wonderful post..<p>Exactly what I have learned over the last couple years...still learning how to communicate in a new fashion though..even w/ foo