Anna:<p>Hi, Thx for your thoughtful responses. This subject can be such a loaded gun for some people.I could totally relate to your description of your son.. settling for 80%-- on spelling.. b/c he didn't want to "tax" his brain. I have that problem too, at times. <p>It has required much tonque biting not to push the issue. But, what I have done.. is ask my son--<p>"If you knew that you could get 100% w/ just a little more effort, would you still "settle" for the 80% mark-- a grade that doesn't accurately reflect everything YOU do KNOW-- when you knew you had the smarts to do even better?"<p>Usually that get's his motor running.. but not always.. esp if friends are calling and he wants to play. My daughter has only recently learned the value of good grades.. as it relates to college. She has gets alot of kudo's from others.. who learn that she is HS, and is in college at the same time.<p>( I still don't think she fully realizes that grades will hamper her-- when she transfers from Community College-- to a University--that she wants to go to, and she realizes that GRADES are an important determinant to getting into the school that she wants.. even more so.. b/c she was HS !)<p>As for others on the MB that are HS.. I wasn't aware.. but that is good to know.. <p>One thing that I am continually amazed at is the number of highly educated parents.. that are rearranging their schedules to do this thing called HS.. be/c they have had it with
Public ED, -- and the "one size fits all" approach. <p>It isn't an easy road.. although, I think I have a great curriculum -- that has allowed me to work my patient/ intern schedule around.. while also being available for the kids. Some days are plain hard.. too much on my plate.. but other days.. are soo awesome.<p>One quick story.. <p>It was my son that kept pestering me to pray about HS him.. he was so miserable in this class..He had always loved school, prior to this class. <p>(After I learned everything that was going on in that class.. I was livid.. and it about turned into WWW III--- (where I had everyone from the superintendent to the teacher in conferences, when his teacher refused to allow him out to RSP, and then made fun of him in class!) <p>Remember, my other certification is Ed Psych.. so I knew my rights, and that of my son's.. and I was going to make darn sure that I became the "squeeky wheel" if need be. <p>Eventually, after repeated conferences, the teacher apologized.. and I demanded that this incident be recorded at the district level, and school level into her personnel record !!)<p>Anyways, I kept getting notices home about missing assignments, and number of other things.. My son is basically very shy,quiet, gentle, and very generous. <p>He would tell me stories about other kids getting picked on and how he would step in and stand up for them... I complimented him, and just blew it off.. but when it happened to my son.. I raised CAIN. <p>One day I found him at the park crying, a bunch of kids had hid his bagpack, (in retaliation for him helping another underdog child--) and sent him looking for it,, and as a result, he missed the bus. I dealt with that.. with the bus driver, kid's parents, principal.<p>A while later, I noticed that my son was becoming a little more withdrawn.. He was quiet at dinner, and was no longer voluntering info at what was happening at school. <p>Apparently, as a result of some verbal humilation in class over his disability in math... he was teased so badly, and told that the kids would give him a "swishy"--( a dunk in the toilet bowl-while you flush it)<p>This was all during the time.. my son would make pleas for me to HS.. I kept responding to these comments.. reminding them that "I stayed home when you guys were little, and what would I do now for finances if I don't work..?" <p>One day,after getting the kids off to school, I walked out the front door..looking forward to a nice morning.. of quiet, coffee, and the paper. As I walked out the door-- I noticed a stack of papers, some flowers, and some money lying on my doormat.<p>I picked up the papers.. and read the following note: <p>" Dear Mommy, I am sorry that I didn't go to school this morning, and that I missed my bus, and I want you to know that you have every right to be mad at me, but I don't know how to show you how much I hate school anymore. <p>My teacher doesn't like me, and even when I do what I am suppose to , she makes fun of me, then the kids do the same thing. <p>Last year wasn't like this and now all I want to do is cry, and I feel so bad inside, but I keep remembering that you told me sometimes we have to do things that we don't want to do, and I want you know Mom, I am trying, but I am so sad inside. <p>I know you don't want to HS me, but maybe, what you told me Mom, is true for you too ! ( OUCH). <p>I know you are afraid if you Homeschool me, that we won't have any money.. because you can't see your patients. So here is some money from my allowance that I have been saving, to help you and DAd have money.I know it isn't as much as you get when you do Therapy- but please MOM, give me a chance to Homeschool, I don't want to feel sad, anymore. <p>Please don't be mad at me. I am in the trailer working on my assignments, and here are some math, spelling, english, that I have completed this morning." <p>Love you always, Caleb<p>
Whoah ! TIME to really evaluate where/ what I was doing. I realized that I could always do therapy.. but.. my kids.. and what I did with them.. had eternal value.. For me there were issues of priorities, finances.<p>The neat thing is.. when I began to step out in faith and do it.. the LORD provided the finances.. and allowed me to expand both my Ministry, and Practice in new and exciting ways and showed me a way to make HS work for us/ the kids.<p>I would so agree with you about the number of parents that have done this.. and have either given up or don't get actively involved in the education. <p>I have 2 family members tht do that very thing. They think that 1-2 hours of homeschool every day is enough.. but neither of their kids can read-- even though they are 12- 13. The other family, has 4 kids.. and 3 of the kids needed to go back in RSP when they reentered Public.. b/c they were so far behind.<p>Those kinds of reports are not the norm.. I know many who are deeply committed to this endeavor.. and their kids/ family life show it. <p>There is much freedom in HS.. and it has taken me 3 years to allow some of that freedom to permeate our HS setting.. My greatest fear was having kids that looked like my relatives..I would have felt like I failed.. but.. that is one of the reasons.. that choosing curriculum is so important.. <p>I also didn't want to be stuck grading/ testing,developing tons of lessons plans.. for different grade levels.. and hanging around the house all the time.. <p>This curriculum does most of that for me.. The kids can go to the office with me.. they now have used laptops.. they took their computers on the trips..so we didn't miss the assignments etc. <p>You are lucky ANNA>........ should you ever decide to look into this---- Texas /CA where I live are the best states for HS.. ALthough it is legal in every state---- TEXAs and Ca have the best setup for homeschools..and it's recognition by the state.<p>Re the book.. You can get it -- the co is in Colorado.. It is called "Parenting with Love & Logic" They have tapes, books, viedos etc.. to teach how to use these principles.. Great stuff.. and funny too.<p>D

Anna,<p>It looks like your post crossed my post. So you got a very good response from your son. That feels so good.. to be on the right track, doesn't it?<p>The treats were fine.. the difference, is that you "surprised" him.. so he wasn't working "for" the treats.. but he was being reinforced for CHOICES he made-- in spite of the treats.. <p>A very different approach....and I want to encourage you to keep reinforcing his ability to make wise choices.<p>One other thought you may wish to consider:
When the kids were younger--I had the same philosophy of enforcing the "getting homework done as soon as you are home" thinking.. (that along with chores)-<p>until I made the connection of that when I come home from work.. do I immediately set out to do my "family work"-- (sometimes).. but most times.. I need "down time"... I call this "debriefing" time.. <p>We need to really build this in to our kid's schedules.. I used to rationalize that if my
(son, esp), would just go right to his work.. it would be all done-- and then no hassles for either of us.. he had the rest of the day to do what he wanted.. this made so much sense to me.<p>This worked until about 4-5th grade. But it was a huge battle.. many times.. me reminding him, re-reminding him, scolding, etc. I began to dread the afternoon hours.. knowing the battle I would deal with. <p>In my heart, I reasoned tht if he was still in "school" mode, he would whiz through the HW and be on his way... where if he had time to hang out-- he would stall and put it off.. etc.<p>Soooooo, we decided to apply this principle of "choices" to this area too. WE discussed his need to "debrief"....and his need to complete work, and his need to play, hangout. <p>He decided that "debriefing" from school for awhile was a better way to do things-- for him. WE agreed upon a time..for us, this meant no going out to hang with friends as the one exception... although , he could go outside.. he just couldn't hang out.. It was "time specific"-- 1/2 hour-1hour.. Then by a given time say (330-4) he needed to start his HW.<p>This worked for quite awhile.. and not in the way I expected, though. Many times he would be in his "debrief" time.. and his friends would call, or come over, and want to play.. and he wouldn't be available.. they would take off without him.<p>That meant that he was stuck doing school work-- while they had already finished theirs. After several instances of this.. and other incidents where, they would be discussing what they were going to do-on the way from the bus.. <p>He DECIDED that he could have a shorter debrief time-- and he would often get his chores,homework done all on his own.<p>Another thing-- we taught him/ our daughter--- THat although they have the ability to make choices,, sometimes they will be wise choices, sometimes they won't be good choices. If their choices were unwise, it meant that it usually "impacted" someone else. WE used the principle of "de-engerizing."<p>For example: If I didn't happen to be home from work yet, and he decided to SKIP that time with homework/chores.. and go play anyway-- and I discovered it-- I would call him whereever he was.. and have him come home. <p>This created a two fold situation--It interrupted whatever he was doing-- to attend to stuff left undone.. a direct result of unwise choice.<p>Since he didn't make a wise CHOICE to complete his responsibilities-- then I was placed in the position of "reminding" him. This meant that I was doing his "thinking" for him. When I hd to do "his thinking" for him-- it meant this took away from something else I was/ had to do.<p>This reminding or thinking for him..
(outside of one reminder)--"de-energized" me-- and took away from things that I needed to attend to .. <p>SOOO, if I had to call him home to take care of business.. he had to "give back to the family, or me".. in some form of contribution-- because.. he didn't make good CHOICES for himself,, and the CHOICE he did make impacted me/ or the family in some manner. ( such as not doing his dishes/r trash, or leaving homework that he needed help with until late in the day/eve, when I was running out of energy, or seeing clients, or on my way to bed.)<p>You can bet-- it took several instances of of allowing the consequences to do the teaching-- before the kids got it.. but once they did.. WOW!<p>Just some ideas that may be of help.<p>Damaris<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: ITherapist ]</p>

I sat here and cried as I read that letter from your son..did you ask him if when he told you that
the teacher was doing this to other kids if the 'other kids' he was refering to were himself?
Maybe it's just my thinking..because of my own past..to see how a parent would respond to something that happened to me..that if I said it was happening to someone else..I'd see the reaction and how they would handle it..if they got mad then I'd know they wouldn't respond the same way if it was me..if they didn't give the reaction I was looking for..then I'd not say anything..<p>Example..I was abused by my dad..I'd told my mom
I needed help, that I needed to talk to someone..because something was wrong w/ me..
her response was.."I'll talk to your dad about taking you..but, I don't see where there is anything wrong w/ you" and she'd leave this up to my dad..who was abusing me..<p>But she would sit and listen to friends say they have problems and say they should get counseling..and get angry with them.<p>So I learned that if it was about 'me' she didn't care..if it was about a friend she cared..so I used the friend analogy w/ my mom to get her to listen..but she never could connect the two..until years later when the truth came out..and she was devasted..and she realized I was refering to myself all those years ago..<p>So for me..I respond the same way w/ my kids as I do as if they were talking about friends and I tell them if it happened to you I'd be even more angry b/c your my child..and I love you..yes, I care about your friends and we can inform their parents about it (and I have) but, I can't really do anything past that..but for you..I could..and would..<p>How mean of the teacher to think that name calling and humilation will make children do better..(sad thing is many parents think the same way) <p>Did you offer her counseling for her to deal with this issue?? B/c if she does the same thing to other kids..she needs some help..or doesn't need to be teaching..

IT,<p>I just wanted to let you know I read your posts. I've just been thinking about what you have said, and will respond later. Great comments by the way.<p>Today is a little harder to type on this thread. I gave son the treats yesterday. Even though he was happy, perhaps he took it wrong. I think he is either going back to his old ways or testing me to see if it's true I'll go back to my old ways of asking him if homework is done. He didn't finish anymore homework the rest of the night. <p>He is also getting involved with learning QBasic, and old computer book lying around the house. He had worked on it most of last night, and immediately after coming home from school. This is more interesting to him than school work. Anyway, I've not said a word but how tough!<p>c'ya later,<p>ANNA

Hi Thorned Rose/Anna:<p>Yeah.. isn't that letter a tear jerker ? I was stunned into action by it-- I couldn't believe that my son was THAT sad! You asked if he was using the other kids stories as a way to let me know what he was experiencing indirectly.. <p>Actually, most of the stories of the other kids, I was involved with-- either indirectly, or directly,, so I knew them to be true, from several of his friends/parents who told me. <p>As for it being a "cover" for him-- I think that is a good point.. and could of been a possibility if we hadn't stressed communication, and assertive communication, as such a BIG, BIG, ISSUE In our house. <p>He never seem to be shy about telling me how he helped other kids.. I could usually get the load down from the other kids too..and he never seemed to grow tired of asking me to HS... <p>It ws just that later, as time wore on-- he became less communicative about HIS needs.. that is when I noticed a child who was growing more depressed over a situation he viewed as unchangable.<p>Thus, is took the letter to wake me up-- I had always felt my kids need to learn at some level to fight their own battles.. BUT-- when they needed me--I would be there -- if their methods weren't working. <p>Where I think I made the mistake with Caleb was that I let it ride too long.. (thinking that we all have teachers/ people in life that we don't get along with-- so we need to learn to deal with it...) when I DISCOVERED HOW BAD IT HAD GOT--THAT IS WHEN I WENT INTO "SHE BEAR" MODE. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your situation Thornrose, was awful. How sad to not feel that the one person you expected to protect you.. was abusing you... and the other person who was charged with protecting you-- couldn't act APART from your abuser. Was your mom abused too? WHy did she need to clear things w/ your dad ?<p>I had a g/f use that same method you chose to "test the waters", about issues with her parents.. depending on the responses-- she would either decide to act or not. <p>Several times, as a teen ager, I either acted as her "csler", or I hooked her up with people/ or teacher/cslers I knew.. so she could get the help she needed. <p>Today as an adult, she still finds herself resorting to the "Testing the waters" method-- if she believes the stuff she needs to talk about could be used against her in some way.<p>YOU asked whether I offered her counseling--- actually, it would have been unethical for me to treat her-- b/c I had MAJOR COUNTER TRANSFERENCE!
I couldn't figure how you can be teaching for 24 years, and not know basic Psychology Of Learning with kids. <p>The ironic thing was, she claimed she taught at the local university as a MENTOR Teacher for Student Teachers. <p>I wasn't too nice in my review of her-- and strongly suggested that she would benefit from an update in her course currency for the Psychology of Learning-- esp as it relates to those who have learning differences! <p>Anna, I wasn't real clear on what happened today.. but I suspect you will fill us all in later. I won't be on till late tonight or tomorrow, as I have Intern group tonight that I teach- they are getting ready for our State Licensure Boards-- so it will be a long night.<p>It sounds like you didn't have success with your method today.. if I am reading the post right. Maybe later I can give you a couple of language stems we use with kids that are inconsistent-- <p>Definitely give this time to work... sometimes it is not so much how good a method is that makes it work instantly-- but is the amount of time we spend re-training the child-- for the behavior to take effect-- that makes it a success !<p>Damaris<p>Thx for sharing.
D<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: ITherapist ]<p>[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: ITherapist ]</p>

Anna:<p>Practice saying this to yourself.. as you bite your tonque. <p>"I passed ___ grade.... My son's job is to pass this _______ grade. I must give him permission to pass this grade on HIS terms-- be it this year
or 20 years from now !!" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When I remind him that the night is slipping away, or ask him if his homework is done, it is no longer him doing the "thinking", but me doing the "thinking" for him." When his teacher asks me why he didn't finish this or that, I will remind myself that this is NOT a reflection on my good mothering skills, but it a direct result of HIS CHOICES !"<p>Hugs..
D

I'm not a teacher, but I play one on TV, no wait, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, NO- I married a middle school teacher, yeah, that's it.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Here's an excerpt from one teachers email. "I just wanted to let you know that I support your decision 100%. Too often I deal with parents who want to make excuses for their child's lack of effort. I believe in what you are doing because I think that failing is a choice that some very capable students make."<hr></blockquote><p>I just want to be sure you understand what this teacher is saying. I might have missed it in the replies and all. If you're going to let your student fail on their own (and I don't disagree with that), then you >>>>>MUST<<<<< follow through and HOLD HIM BACK. Otherwise, it's just one more empty threat.<p>WS tells some pretty funny stories about 7th & 8th graders and their lack of motivation at that age. We live in a military community, and so some of the forms of discipline seem extreme, but many also WORK! One father removed all the furnishings from the student's room, no dresser, no clock, no stereo or TV, no gameboy or X-box or anything - NO BOX SPRINGS FOR HIS BED! He had his mattress on the floor, he had 3 pairs of black jeans, and 5 T-shirts. It took nearly a FULL QUARTER for this treatment to take its toll, but in the end, peer pressure (ridicule for his dress), lack of comforts, and his father's will won. He started doing his work and is now successful in high school.<p>More times than not, it's intelligent students who find this "boredom" with school. One of my WS collegues likes to say you have to "dial in the pain." You need to find something that is important to them, and deny that to them...this is why I believe your approach could be successful. If a student is held back, separated from friends, that will be "dialing it in."<p>Aside from his teachers supporting >>>YOU<<<, you must support >>>THEM<<<. If they dish out some punishment, detention, lunch duty, before or after school, whatever, you have to support them. Please don't do yourself and your son a disservice by not allowing them to work on him.<p>Someone replied to you about the schools piling on homework (too lazy to go look), but there is SO much for our students to learn to keep up in the world. If a 12 or 13 year old doesn't have the organizational skills to move on, then they're not DEVELOPMENTALLY ready to advance in grade. Wouldn't you much rather have them fail and maybe be held back a year in middle shcool (or junior high) and LEARN or MATURE enough to handle organization, rather than failing in high school- where it counts?<p>Ok, I'll get off my WS soapbox now. BTW, she's from a FAMILY of teachers, so I'm sure you can imagine all the family get togethers (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Wednesdays, etc...), nothing but teacher talk.<p>Later,
Kev

Anna,<p>repeat after me --bite your tongue..don't say a word..is he testing you..maybe..maybe not..
he found something that interested him more than
his school work and his friends--when he goes to
school tomorrow and has no homework finished..and
gets that ZERO!! He'll remember..he may ask you
'why' you didn't say something..and you just tell him..that he made his own schedule up, he knew when he said he'd do what..so you didn't feel you needed to remind him..<p>I actually like ITherpists advice in the if I have to remind you then that means I'm thinking for you..and if I have to think for you..then you have to give back that time to me...<p>That is sooooo kewl-I love that...it's those boundry issues in another perspective..<p>Kev, I agree..that it needs to have follow through..the sad thing for my OD is that
she failed 4th grade and they passed her anyway..
(even when I asked that they hold her back) I didn't get the support from the school..and in turn the priniciple lost my respect..she wanted me to support her in educating my child..yet, when I was trying to do just that..educate my child..she refused to give the support back..<p>Itheripist, in answer to your question yes she was by him..maybe I'll share that sometime in another post..

ThornedRose: <p>Oh you are such a sweeeeeeeet one ! Thx for the vote of confidence.. the things I offer here on the board.. are born out of experience as a wife and mother-- and are often borrowed from those I treat ! <p>Glad you liked it. I suspected your mother was also abused... why else didn't she have the ability to protect/ and intervene for you.<p>Anna: Definitely give it some thought-- there are some great principles and methods here.... but hang tough.. <p>If you haven't done it already.. definitely look for the book I suggested.. The language they give you to use is SOOOOO MUCH FUN>>> and you can modify it to make it work for you. <p>WIth our kids.. and those families I have counseled---I usually suggest you sit down with your child.. and explain to h/her that you have be reevaluating your methods --<p>Stating that you realize that when they were young.. you needed to do more of their thinking for them.. but now that they are older.. you recognize that they are capable of making some of their own choices.. and so you are going to go to new plan.. to help them with this.. b/c these are the skills they need to have-- in the REAL WORLD ! Blah Blah. <p>( This all said in the most empathic, loving and serious manner you can manage !) They will wonder what this all means.. and what YOU are UP to..<p>THIS WAS A HUGE RUN ON SENTENCE-- my slashes are my commas.. and taking a breath ! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ))))<p>THen you go on to assure them that they are very capable of making some of their own decisions- and that you recognize that you are doing them a huge disservice by taking up so much of their responsibilities....such as "thinking" for them--
reminding them.. etc.<p>YOu set the ground rules.. that you will give one reminder-- but after that-- (the reminder is a gentle courtesy)-- anything after that might impact you/ or family.. <p>Ask them what happens if they are working for someone out in the real world- and if they don't do their part of the job-- what happens to everyone else.. who are depending on you to do that part.( they either have to do it for them, or are stuck "covering" for what they were expected to do).<p>Explain that all of our behavior effects others in some manner-either for good/ bad. When our choices begin to impact the family, or you-- then you need to make your OWN CHOICES about how you will respond to that. <p>One method you have chosen is to help him learn that to make good choices-- and they only way you can do that is to let his choices do the teaching.. instead of you reminding, lecturing, scolding..etc.<p>Explain that one way you can do this, is to teach him that his choices impact others-- if that happens-- then he will need to understand how.. and figure out a way to give back what he took-- when making a poor choice.<p>To break it down for the school setting-- let the teacher(s) know what your philosophy is in this.. and tell them to let "their consequences" do the teaching in the school environment.. whatever that is.. <p>(For our son/ daughter-- it was a number of things.. missed recess while they completed HW from the night before--giving back to the teacher in terms of chores, time, if they hd to miss their RECESS BREAK to monitor my child while they did their missed work.. etc.)<p>At home, it even included them having to pay for an adult to be with them to monitor their completion of work.. while we went out on family outing-- <p>We were not consequenced.. they were-- because their choices had an direct impact on family. When this kind of stuff happens as a result of poor choices.. you always speak to your child in loving, empathic terms..<p>("Oh wow, Dan, you must be so bummed about having to pay a babysitter/adult to be with you to oversee your completion of your work--<p>I am so bummed too that you can't come with us today on the Family HIke- I know how much you love to play in the waterfalls pool. We will miss you. You are always so much fun to have with us! Good Luck--we love you".)<p>Notice there is no retribution/chastising about his choices-- just empathy, love, concern, and an indirect mention that he is capable of making wiser choices next time.<p>YOUR creativity is infinite on how this can work.. but it DOES WORK! I could spend days giving examples.. but my computer will cut me long before this. There are certain things that are non-negotiable items that you must decide about. YOUR CHOICE-- such as, lying, or disrespect, that need to be spelled out with clear boundaries/ consequences.. etc.ALl the other things.. can generally be used as Choices-- and teaching our kids how the real world works !<p>D<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: ITherapist ]</p>

Anna, <p>I know it's still early...but keep us posted
how is he doing this week..

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>Anna, <p>I know it's still early...but keep us posted
how is he doing this week..</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh thanks TR, will do. I am trying very hard not to think about it. I think he's stopped following his schedule totally. I don't know if he's getting it at school or not getting it at all. I don't ask. It's getting easier but still sometimes I hate watching my child fail.<p>You guys are really helping me by being my cheerleading squad. Thanks and keep it up.<p>ANNA

Anna:<p>Yes.. I second that motion of Thornedrose-- please keep us all posted-- also, is he clear what the new method is--- ?<p>Damaris

Hi all,<p>Just an update. I was posting on Lisa's thread and thought I'd post my last comments here.<p>Here it is...<p>Lisa,<p>Nellie is right about the counseling.<p>I was on the verge of getting my son counseling. I still am considering it. I am watching the situation very closely.<p>Did you read the attached thread? I think it would help you a whole lot. The more time that goes by the more I realize how much grounding and punishment put too much pressure on my son and he just needed me to say I am backing off totally because I know you can do all this, and if you fail I know you are smart enough to pick yourself back up and succeeed. <p>My eyes have opened a lot to what I was doing by trying to control the situation, but they only opened when I let go of that control. I was so worried he'd fail but in the end by being codependent I just wasn't giving him confidence to know he can do this.<p>My son is very bright and borderline gifted. He has always been slow with getting his homework done, with the encouragement of teachers and counselors, I have always taken privledges away and this NEVER worked, it seemed the more time went on the more privledges I took away. I thought if I got extreme enough he'd finally do better. However, the more I took away, the more he gave up.<p>This year is the first year I saw him giving up totally. The first time I saw a depression. He's always struggled with school, but he's always been happy. The backing off from the homework was my last hope. If that didn't work, as stated, I would have took him to counseling immediately.<p>I think the divorce masked the situation a bit. The counselors and teachers told me it was probably the divorce causing the depression, since he's never had the depression before. Now I think the divorce sent him into depression sooner but it was actually my stbx and I giving him no confidence in himself to make the right decisions that was more the problem. I think everything just finally reached a boiling point.<p>I'm glad I did this, because I saw the turn around in his attitude immediately. He's joking and laughing with me again. He's going outside and playing with others again. Before he was staying inside, his friends would come over and he would tell them he didn't want to play, he was becoming a recluse. He complained he was tired all the time and just lay around the house.<p>It has been so tough backing off, and not knowing whether his homework is done or not done, not knowing whether he'll pass or fail but I know the way we were headed he would have surely failed, at least this way there is hope. I truly think he needed to know I had confidence in his choices, and I no longer regret the decision I made to stay out of his school work life unless he ask.<p>Also, last week he came to me and asked me to help him study for test. I did this. I also made sure I stuck to my agreement, that was a small way of him pulling me back in but it's on his terms of how much he wants me there. I don't think we are over the hump with this yet but I now see us going up hill instead of down, and I think if I stick with my agreement to back off he'll slowly pull me back in to get a happy medium of what he wants and needs, instead of the control I thought I needed over him in order to get him to do things.

Again, good luck with your son.<p>ANNA<p>Here's the link to Lisa's thread in case you guys want to look it up.<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=005280

Anna, <p>How wonderful that your son is asking you for
help now..just don't push him..and don't do his work for him..(sometimes we feel it's easier)
and just know that the more responsible HE feels
about his work, the better those grades will make him feel about himself...<p>I know that my D does the same thing..if she needs help..she asks..my YD is learning the same thing
if she needs help, ask..she doesn't always ask me
she's learning that sometimes her sister can help
which was actually FUNNY, her sister was 'helping' her one day and was getting frustrated..and I just looked at her and was like..what has you all frustrated? She said..HER!! I was like..what do you mean? She said, well, she's expecting ME to do the work for her!! I stood there and said..hmmm..
didn't say anything else..she sat there and looked at me and said.."I used to do that to you too didn't I?? I said, "yes, you did, you didn't want to look up the answers yourself, you wanted someone to tell you the answers" she said,
"I guess thats why I 'never really learned' because I expected to just be told the answer and didn't look it up myself to where I'd actually LEARN it huh?" I just smiled at her, she said..
"I'm sorry Mom, I didn't realize I was this bad or worse..and Thank you, for not doing that anymore and for making me be responsible for my own work,
I can see how hard it must have been, because I know it would be easier for me to just tell her the answer and be done with it, but, she won't learn that way, will she??? I just smiled knowing my daughter learned a very important lesson..<p>She's also taken this lesson to school with her, when her friends have asked to 'copy' her homework
and she's told them NO, she's lost a few friends b/c of it..but, she's also learned they weren't real friends if all they wanted her around for was to copy homework..it makes me sad, but at the same time I am happy for her, b/c she's learning many things about life and friendships now that will help her in the years to come..<p>but, you know what..these are the years they NEED to learn these things, no matter how much we as parents try and protect our kids from learning these lifes lessons, I am learning...I can't..if I want to give my child what I never had..then she needs to learn them now..in the 'growing up' years..so that she will be prepared for adulthood, and adult relationships..no matter how painful it is to me as her mom to see her hurt..she's learning how to face her troubles..knowing that I am there for her..to help and encourage her, and offer her advice when she needs it..So I am LEARNING TOO!!!

Anna & Thornrose:<p>AWESOME BLOSSOM! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] This report was a blessing!
I have been cking back reg to see if there has been any progress-- Way to go Anna--I know how hard this is to release him-- allowing his success to be measured by his OWN effort, not by the effort we extend for them. <p>Your son has not only learned that he is capable, but he has the added benefit, that Mom believes in his capability. You have learned an important piece in this too-- YOUR son will not fail/pass based on YOU! <p>When we release some of that control, our children begin to see that they have some control they can call their OWN! <p>This has an incredible psychological impact, by reducing their resistance to OUR control over certain areas in their lives, and a positive benny is that they get huge "deposits" in their "sense of self" department, as you are seeing. <p>Thorned Rose.. great story too.<p>You are right that this will be a long road-- but it does get easier.. as time goes by, and you actively disengage from making the decisions that belong to him. I have done this with both of my kids-- and I still battle with this--<p>( Case in point, my 16 yr old, decided that she needed clean clothes to go to work in at the Olive Garden this morning--rather than plan ahead while she had a few days off--- Her clothes sat on the floor for the last few days, and all of sudden she discovered she had no clean uniforms. I bit my tongue about the pile on the floor for the past few days. <p>She hastily dumped them in the washer, but this meant that her clothes wouldn't be done in time for the bus pick-up-- which in turn meant that she would be late-- <p>She asked to use the van--I said "NO, I need it today"- she explains she will be late and WHY she will be late- <p>I said very gently, ever so sweetly.. "I am reallllllly sorry, I know you must be really worried about that-what do YOU think you can do about this situation- I know you will come up with a good solution. Let me know when you do!" <p>A few minutes later,, she tries to negotiate a ride to work-- which could of been workable- except we were all running different directions-- <p>When that didn't work to her satifaction, she began yelling about how "I was making her late for work"-- I initially ignored the comments, and the stomping thru the house-- ( manipulation, and frustration ) <p>When I didn't respond to her temper tantrum,( which she rarely ever has) she came into the kitchen, and said she would lose her job if her clothes weren't clean, and she wasn't there on time-- I said, Oh Ry,( her name is Mariah) you are in a tough spot-- I know how frustrating that is for you, to feel like you are going to be late and people are depending on you to be there. What other choices do you have here ?--She said-- ride her bike, get a friend to drive her, call in sick, or go in late by taking the next bus.

I said "Good choices, Ry, let me know which one YOU think is best"! :0<p>She ended up calling into work and explained that she would be late,as she had missed her bus. Bummmer! Her management wasn't too happy, but they worked with her.. <p>Guess what she was doing when she got home this afternoon?<p>LAUNDRY!!!!! (I didn't have to say a word!) Again, the "consequences did the teaching"---<p> D