It's been a while since I posted, because my situation has been static. She's out of the house, we see each other all the time, etc. etc. etc. If you need background, go to the world's weirdest separation.<p>Two or three times, she has said she "wants to get started on the legal stuff" - sometimes she'll actually say "divorce" but hasn't done anything about it. But now she's starting to- last week, she handed me an example agreement she said she had "marked up." I thought, "hmmm- this is a change, she's actually doing something." But it turned out "marking up" meant "making pencil check marks next to the boilerplate legalese paragraphs which she thinks apply to us." <p>Last night she told me that on Thursday, she'd like me to come over and after the kids are in bed, we can go through holiday schedules, pay some joint (kid) bills, and then "look over those papers and see if we're on the same page."<p>Let me make this clear to you all- we aren't on the same page, we're not even reading the same book. I don't want a divorce. It's her show. She expects us to do it together- she even has an idea that we will sit down and write the papers together, then hand them to her lawyer, who is one of her closest friends, who will file them and that will be that. I don't want to do that- and I certainly won't trust her long-time pal to be my lawyer. For my own mental well-being, I don't want to do anything more to contribute to the end of this marriage.<p>However, I want to make that clear to her without it being an LB - a harsh sort of "you want it, you do it, I don't trust your friend, file and get on with it." It's also delicate because, looking at it hard-headedly, I have more to lose here. Financially, I have assets and she mainly has debts. Children-wise, we've been doing joint physical custody, and I don't want to get into a custody battle. So, it's in my interests to avoid pissing her off. <p>So, I'm looking for vocabulary advice, I guess. Any suggestions on how I should put this to her?

Wow, I've been wondering where you had disappeared to. <p>I have no great advice. Except, get your own lawyer. Of course, her lawyer and friend will be looking after only one person's interests. So, it is better to pay an attorney and be represented than to be run over.<p>Sorry to see that it has come to this. My settlement might have been better if I hadn't fought my x tooth and toenail when he first filed.

I am not sure if what I have to offer will be helpful, but here are a couple of thoughts on your situation.<p>If you really don't want the divorce then I would not "help" her draw up the papers. My H filed and then said, "but we will sit down and come to an agreement on everything - custody, property division..." He thought we would just sit around the kitchen table and write up our divorce agreement like a Martha Stewart project. He wanted us to use the same attorney - because there is no use spending money on attorneys when we are going to work all this out ourselves anyway. And we are going to be great friends throughout this process....blah, blah blah...<p>Well, I was in the same boat as you. Didn't want the divorce and I knew that at some level he didn't either. I just refused (with no LBing) to participate in the process. At one point he asked what my thougths were about seperating stuff and I wrote out a list of "issues" - things like this:<p>To Decide:
Custody - how to share time, how to share holidays, vacations....
Child support - who pays, how much
House - how to divide equity - who will stay in it or do we sell?
Health Insurance for kids - who carries
Taxes - who claims kids
401k and his retirement plan - how to split
Debt - who takes which loans
Silver, Crystal, China, Computer, Antiques, Artwork, Dining Room Table and Chairs, King Bed, Leather Chairs - Mine
Golf Membership - His<p>Anyway, you get the point. It was really just a stream of consciousness list of things that must be determined. He responded with some of his own and then I dropped it. <p>He kept saying, "what do we do next?" I would say, "I don't know." Now, get this, my husband IS AN ATTORNEY and he even practiced domestic law for a couple of years. So, is this a person on the fence or what. Anyway, I finally told him that I wasn't going to "help" draft a document that I didn't even want. If he wanted to draw up a proposal and let me look over it we would go from there. Long story short, we are now working on the marriage and the divorce is on hold.<p>What I would say is something like this:<p>W,
You know that I don't want this divorce. I don't think it is best for for us, our kids or our family. I understand that you are still on this course to get divorced, but I am not on that path. I can't help draft an agreement for something that I don't want to agree to. <p>Of course, I realize, I can't keep you from doing whatever it is you need to do for yourself. As a matter of fact, I encourage you to do whatever it is you feel like will help you be happy and healthy. <p>If you would like to draw up a proposal (that is actually what lawyers call it), or a proposed agreement, I will look over it. You need to think about what your goals are in a divorce and what you are trying to accomplish. Since I don't know what your goals are, I am not the person to help with that. <p>As an aside, if she has debts (in her name only) then you shouldn't have to worry about taking those on. Do you make a lot more money than she does? Also, if you have joint custody, in many cases there is no exchange of child support.

(((((((dabigtrain))))))))))))<p>I think it is time for you to get a lawyer of your own.....if this is going to happen, you will need to make sure the deal is fair.<p>Thinking of you.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

Hey bud,<p>Sorry to see that things haven't changed for you, at least not for the better... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>I'm gonna be a dissenting vote here, and say that you SHOULD cooperate with her in figuring out all the divorce agreement issues that Wiffle brought up. It is much much better for the two of you to come to some agreement on how to divide property, custody, etc, than to get into court battles over it. As a lawyer whom I consulted told me: "you can either get into a fight with your spouse (with lawyers involved) and have the lawyers end up with all your savings, or work it out with your spouse"... Easy choice, IMO.<p>I know that you do not want a divorce. Yet if your wife does, you can't stop her. I was in the same boat as you, yet I cooperated, and looking back at it now, that was much smarter than getting into an (expensive) battle, where I might have ended up with less than I got. I suggest you try to work it out together, then spend an hour with your attorney to make sure you're not getting screwed. Nobody wins in an ugly court battle...<p>I am truly sorry that you have to deal with this during the holiday season... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>AGG

I am going to say the same thing as good guy (hiya!).<p>I had some info today that told me just how much it costs to do this stuff via courts.......it is substantial.<p>I don't want to do it, but I am going to have to do this, as otherwise I could end up with a lot less......

OK, i went through the "nice, cooperative" experience, and did most of it ourselves, with leadership for me to gain wahtever advantage i could. But let her do the actual filing, etc. We negotiated an agreement with a legal mediator, which I highly recommend, and she was very good. She had experience as a guardium ad lightem, (GAL) and understood importance of equality for the father, and helped X see that. She knew all the issues inside and out, and i could not get away with anything that she had not already experienced, as well neither could X.<p> HOWEVER, once a manipulator, always a manipulator. So when she got her lawyer involved, her lawyer changed her mind completely, and she decided that I had too much time and should get the minimum "because that is what the judge would order." and more money, because she figured out that i really didn't want to make it ugly.<p>I am of two opinions, and i am not sure what is correct, HOWEVER, i do regret not getting tough and taking the money issue to court as my case (of course) fell way outside the norm. Because of this, no one was sure how the judge would rule. So her lawyer played the doubt issue to her advantage, and I am certain that I would have made the case very successfully.<p>However, I also like to negotiate agreements myself, and practice it whenever i can. I don't want to be running to a lawyer for every dispute i have, then one becomes known as a [censored]. (personally, i hate lawyers, but that is another thread.)<p>However, the opposite message is to make a permanent imprint in the WS brain that divorce should not be an easy process, and that you will not be taken advantage of, and that one should think twice before divorcing casually. That you take divorce seriously, and as someone here's lawyer told him/her, if a man does not fight for his portion of the marriage, he will always regret it.<p>Well, i regret not taking WS to the court, and making the abnormal case and having it decided professionally. That would have been to my advantage, at the expense of the vindictiveness of the X, which i see constantly. She is still unhappy, and still routinely apologizes to me for her argumentative and neurotic behavior.<p>The split of personal belongings should be done between you two, not with lawyers. The visitation should be done without lawyers, IF POSSIBLE, however, if there are any monetary issues that are abnormal, or not equal, then you should consider leaving just that issue to the courts.<p>just my opinion, however, given my work schedule at the time, and our situation, I did the best i could, and we had a really good agreement until her lawyer convinced her otherwise, and then the whining and complaints which were not valid were just pathetic. . . .<p>so that is my personal experience, but you will have the experience afterwards to know the best way you should approach it in the future. meaning, you have never done this before, you will probably make mistakes, just do the best you can.<p>WIFTTy

Vocabulary advice, huh?<p>Well, she's out of the house. That's a given, and you might as well respect that. If I were you, I would express my willingness to work out the practical details of the separation with her (as everyone else has suggested), but then also let her know that since I do not agree with the divorce, that I will not help draw up any papers terminating our marriage, and that if she does so, I will get my own lawyer for my own protection.

Just tell her, “I don’t want a divorce. I won’t help you with the papers” and don’t even look at them.<p>If she has a lawyer and actually files then you MUST get a lawyer of your own.

Many thanks to all- I'm thinking it all over, and I'll let you know how things come out.<p>I am definitely going to have a lawyer look over any papers she produces; that's not in question. I told her that a long time ago- when her move-out plans firmed up, I went to see a lawyer for what I thought were obvious reasons. My telling her that almost brought her to tears- she always tells me she's afraid I'll "turn my anger on her." Her parents had an ugly divorce, and she wants to avoid that (what? you think the best way to do so would be to stay married? Hmm, you obviously haven't met the aliens who have taken over my wife's brain). Anyway, she seems to have forgotton that- she acted surprised when, about a month ago, she mentioned "dealing with the legal stuff" and I said I'd have to talk to a lawyer. "Oh, I thought you'd just want to use [her lawyer] and save money." <p>I am thinking of all of you, and reading what I can, even though I'm not posting much these days. Thanks again, everyone, for checking in on me.

Hey DBT,<p>I am really sorry sorry for what you are going through!! I knew you were hoping she would get herself defogged, but it doesn't appear as though that will be happening. <p>As always, I agree with AGoodGuy, I would go through as many items with her on the checklist as possible. If you hit a stumbling block or two, you can always mediate what you don't agree on. WARNING: In MN you cannot have any atty. you have consulted with do the mediation. I know a great mediator if you need one, just email me.<p>Good luck, you will be in my thoughts!

DaBigtrain,<p>
she wants me to help with D papers.
<p>"I want to hang you. Will you help make a noose?"<p>"I want to shoot you. "Will you go buy the gun for me?"<p>"I want to beat you. "Can you go buy a whip?"<p>Sheesh! I'm amazed! <p>If I'm correct, I remember you didn't want hte divorce, so I'd say this, "It is too painful for me to help you end our marriage. The divorce is something I do not want. I want to stay out of the paper work as much as possible. If this is something you need to do, just present the papers when the time comes, and I will have a lawyer look at them."<p>If she pursues this, when and IF the papers are served then get a lawyer. <p>Good luck,<p>ANNA

"Oh, I thought you'd just want to use [her lawyer] and save money."
Which of you would the lawyer be looking out for?<p>Also, any good lawyer would tell you they cannot represent you both and you should get your own.<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</p>

Train,<p>My situation is similar to yours. I don't want a divorce. There seems to be 4 possible outcomes.<p>1) She divorces me and marries OM
2) She moves back in and we stay together
3) We continue to be separated indefinitely (most probable)
4) She divorces me and doesn't marry for a few years.<p>#1 is clearly the most awful - well, maybe it is not so clear, since she is pretty hard to live with. Anyway, avoiding the divorce or delaying it seems desirable to me.<p>Almost every day she asks me (sometimes begs me) for the divorce. The last time she tried to go to her lawyer, she got lost and couldn't find the office. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] That's one reason she wants me to help. Also, I give her enough to live on, but she never seems to have enough - and lawyer wants money.<p>My "solution" was that I told her I would work with her on it, if she would give me one thing. She asked what it was. "A signed confession", I replied. "You write in your own words about your relationship with OM from the beginning of our marriage (even before - when we were engaged) - how you sent him money by Western Union, spent thousands on overseas calls, exchanged email and letters with him, and finally, slept with him."<p>This request left her thinking for a few days - after which she said she would break communication with him until we are divorced. (So far she seems to have done this.) I still haven't helped her with the papers, and she now says she won't write the confession. She still wants him, still wants divorce. Maybe it is only a delaying tactic.<p>I think the oposite view also has some merit. If we cheerfully say "Ok, let's do it!", suddenly they are not so sure they want it.<p>... just random thoughts...<p>-AD

AD, I admire your guts, asking for a signed confession. That is an "I demand respect" move if ever I heard of one, and I'm going to guess it made your wife see you differently.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AbandonedDad:
I think the oposite view also has some merit. If we cheerfully say "Ok, let's do it!", suddenly they are not so sure they want it.<hr></blockquote><p>Personally, I can't bring myself to lie and say "Ok, let's do it," but I can see your point. It's kind of an extension of "tough love" - no begging, no pleading, no "you're breaking my heart."