"Let me start off by saying that I love you very much and you know that deep down inside."<p>Reaffirming that this is not his idea, shifting blame to YOU for having a problem with his behavior. Ugh.<p>"I don't have any faith in counseling at all. I don't think they can do any good. Most of the ones I know of are screwed up worse than we are. They don't know what's going on in our lives."<p>Because I can't see it, it doesn't exist. The world is flat. He has stereotyped every counselor and at the same time, restated that he's not the one who has a problem ... counselors do.<p>"It comes down to we are both the way we are and that is that. There's no use trying to change it. All we do when we change things is mess it up worse."<p>He still won't admit he has a problem, so he feels no need to change. People change all the time ... but first they have to take responsibility for their actions.<p>"If we can't accept each other the way we are, then we have to do something about it. I don't want to leave, but if that's what it takes to make you happy again, I'll just have to go."<p>He's blaming you for not being accepting of his rage. He doesn't see it as a problem, why should you? He's putting the guilt on you for wanting the abuse to stop. He is saying that your feelings are not important enough to change his behavior.<p>~~~<p>I see so much of my situation in this, it's hard to give unbiased advice. My X would do or say anything "in the heat of the moment" to make me stay, give him another chance, etc. ... but would slide right back into his old ways because he could not admit that what he was doing was wrong!! He would justify it by bringing up something I had done wrong. I had to accept all of the blame. For him losing jobs. For his truck dying. For his smoking. For his weight.<p>In your situation, given only the information in this thread, my advice to you would be: 1.) Ask him to move out. Tell him you do not want a divorce, BUT you deserve to feel safe. 2.) Prepare conditions for his return. Anger management counseling, marital counseling, medication if necessary. 3.) Have a consequence. Tell him you do not want a divorce, but it is up to HIM to get help for his anger or FILE. You do not want to live as husband and wife unless you feel safe.<p>I know it's easy for me to say, because I'm not in your shoes ... but I've been in shoes that same style and color.<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Princess Buttercup ]</p>

Helga,<p>You are right! He doesn't get it. If he wants to leave here's your chance. He is using excuses, any and all he can use.<p>He sounds like this is probably what he does in every relationship he is in. He bails when the women don't put up with his crap.<p>I say tell him go. Tell him not to let the door hit him on the way out.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Hi,<p>PrincessButtercup and Anne took the words right out of my mouth. Frankly, you need to set conditions--and understand that he is in justification mode- His idea that you two are just the way you are--- creates this picture that he is stuck with the way he is.. like stripes on a zebra- and therefore, you will have to suck it up.. or get out.<p>Sorry---- life isn't like that! When his behavior begins to impact YOUR life-- and he chooses to believe he has no control over it.. thus no options to change it--- then YOU get to make YOUR choices governing your response to it.<p>You know what YOU need to do--- the act of taking those steps- is what is hard to do--<p>D

Hi,<p>PrincessButtercup and Anne took the words right out of my mouth. Frankly, you need to set conditions--and understand that he is in justification mode- His idea that you two are just the way you are--- creates this picture that he is stuck with the way he is.. like stripes on a zebra- and therefore, you will have to suck it up.. or get out.<p>Sorry---- life isn't like that! When his behavior begins to impact YOUR life-- and he chooses to believe he has no control over it.. thus no options to change it--- then YOU get to make YOUR choices governing your response to it.<p>You know what YOU need to do--- the act of taking those steps- is what is hard to do--<p>D

I knew I could count on you for some good insight. The letter threw me a little at first, but as I really read it and thought about it, I had my answer.<p>I decided to put my own thoughts down on paper for him and I told him how much his behavior hurts, how degraded it makes me feel, and that I am frightened by it. I reiterated to him once again that the only way to try to save this marriage is to seek help. I told him that he does not have any experience with counseling to make a generalized statement such as he made in the letter.<p>He wants to know something one way or the other --and Anna sums it up best at the end of her last post. Thank you for giving me a little laugh at a time when I feel most anxious.<p>I just wanted you know that the help and support I've gotten here means so much right now. I don't have anyone else to share this with and it's a lot to deal with alone.

Helga,<p>When I read *your* post, I knew exactly what you're going through. Because I've lived through it too, for six years. After six years, it still hasn't stopped. I've tried every method of trying to placate H to stop his anger from escalating, but whatever I do, it's not enough. Or sometimes it will work for a while and then he'll find a way to circumvent my peace-keeping attempts. It's not fufilling for the verbal abuser if the victim of that abuse doesn't "get it." <p>What you have to be careful of in situations like this is that they do tend to escalate - in increments, so stealthily that you don't notice it. First you deal with the verbal rage. Then a pinch, then "accidentally" tripping you while you're trying to go upstairs. I once mouthed off to my H and made the remark that I tend to "accidentally" fall down and hurt myself a lot. He did not like that. Calling them on their behavior is a very dangerous thing to do unless you are in a safe environment, such as a counselor's office.<p>Many verbal abusers are charming, sweet people in public. I know that most of my H's friends think that he's Mr. Wonderful and I'm this horrid shrew who does horrid things to him right and left. There has never been any inkling of his anger toward me in public. It's almost creepy, how nicely he treats me in front of other people. When we're in front of his friends, he talks to me, interacts appropriately, doesn't interrupt me, lets me talk, is even physically affectionate at times (really, the only times he *is* physically affectionate). It's as though he's putting on a show, and I can't do anything but go along with it. But it's all a facade. What happens between us when we're not in public would shock his friends to the very core. <p>Just know that you are not alone. Other people are in the same situation. <p>belld

Helga, how are things going?<p>(I may be missing an update on another thread, but I also wanted to bump this one back to the top ... there's a lot of good info here for any lurkers out there!)

Princess Buttercup: Just wanted to let you know that my husband and I did indeed separate a few days before Christmas. He moved out since the equity in the house was mostly mine anyway. We are on amicable terms as we work out the details of our divorce. There doesn't seem to be any turning back, as I remained steadfast in my request that he/we get counseling or it was over. He is of the opinion that this is happening because we just weren't happy together anymore. Yesterday, I had to call him about one of the many details involved in our separation, and he told me his misses me and that after we work out all the "details" and possibly a do-it-yourself-divorce kit, he wants us to be friends and maybe go out occasionoally. I don't want to rock the boat right now since we are on friendly terms, so he doesn't know that my opinion is that if he wanted to continue a relationship with me, then he should have been willing to do everything possible to save the marriage. I just don't understand where he's coming from right now. <p>I do miss him and everything we had planned and talked about for our future together, but from past experience in dealing with losses in my life, I know that it will get better with time.<p>Thanks for caring about what is going on with me, and I hope you are doing okay too.

Helga, <p>It sounds like he's coming from the lay the guilt trip on her..if she agrees that we can date after were divorced..then why get divorced??<p>And see if he work on your defenses of being alone..and he's not in reality yet..and from the
sounds of it..never really was..if he still thinks it's because you don't get along..He still isn't taking responsibility...tell him you'll date
him if he agrees to go to counseling..and see what he says...