Hi all,<p>Well, the other email I sent regarding clothes and child support went as well as I could expect. He still seemed to be on the defense but it was the best I could do.<p>He told me this in his email, he has a court order to pay child support so my question is basically a moot point. <p>However, he fell several weeks behind before, and I sit patiently waited and told him to please just do the best he could. I didn't have him thrown in jail for being behind. He asked me at the time if I would, and I told him "no, of course not". So I just don't understand why a question such as "Will it be on time?" Is so bad....<p>Anyway, just wanted to update ya'll. Now to the next problem.<p>First, he called me on the phone the other day, (which I have told him not to.) I talked to him because at first he was nice. He asked me about Christmas and said he wanted to know if on Christmas morning I could make an exception and let him come over to see the children open their presents. I told him I'm sorry but I can't make an exception. <p>He was really mad, but also almost in tears. He said well then, I guess I'll have to just take them December 26, as it states.<p>I said, "No, I am willing to compromise on those days. I emailed you days ago and said you can have them Christmas Eve, and half the day Christmas day. I do not want to keep you from seeing the children on Christmas." I then stated, "If you want to divide the presents, and you make a different day such as Christmas eve, then let me know, I'll work with you."<p>He seemed even more upset and more offended that I had control of this holiday and when he will see the kids. The conversation was getting way out of hand, so I quickly said, email me, bye. I then hung up.<p>Well, in this latest email he said, "We still haven't resolved Christmas, I wanted to wait a few days to discuss it further. I will be in contact."<p>I know he is going to try to get me to change my mind regarding Christmas day, I feel bad because he has indicated he may buy all the presents and put both our names on them. I also feel bad because I know how much he enjoys waking up to see the kids open their presents. <p>However, I have major concerns about giving in to him being the house with me...<p>Here's the issues....<p>1. He's indicated he may pay for the children's Christmas presents totally. So some how he should be able to see them open them.<p>2. I don't trust him in my house, I feel my safety is at risk.<p>3. I want what's best for the children. In one respect a Christmas with their dad their opening their presents would be great for them. In another respect, the Christmas could turn out to be our worse nightmare, if he gets angry at me.<p>4. He doesn't want to do any of my alternative suggestions, but I really think I'm trying to compromise, and I'm trying to go beyond the court order to compromise as well. I just want to make the right choice.<p>5. To me most importantly, I can not trust him or his promises anymore. He tells me promises and contracts can always be broken. So, if he promises to behave it's worthless.<p>I really don't see an alternative other than to restate his choices. Divide the gifts. He can even have the best gifts to give them, tell him he can do either Christmas eve, Christmas evening or both... <p>I just want to make sure there's not an alternative I'm overlooking...<p>I would really appreciate if anyone can come up with something I may be missing.<p>Thanks.<p>ANNA<p>[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Stick to what you say, this is the way he chose to have things not you. If you do not feel safe then look out for yourself, don't let the quilt get you. It sounds like you are trying to accomidate him the best you can, do not be minipulated out of quilt.

Anna2000:<p>
Grrrrrr... Okay..Let me try this AGAIN..this is the 3rd post to this..so let's see if it will go through this time..<p>
First, he called me on the phone the other day, (which I have told him not to.) I talked to him because at first he was nice. He asked me about Christmas and said he wanted to know if on Christmas morning I could make an exception and let him come over to see the children open their presents. I told him I'm sorry but I can't make an exception. <p>TR- Good for you sticking to your Boundries..<p>He was really mad, but also almost in tears. He said well then, I guess I'll have to just take them December 26, as it states.<p>TR- Let him be mad..So he's just now beginning to 'feel' the consequences of his actions..<p>I said, "No, I am willing to compromise on those days. I emailed you days ago and said you can have them Christmas Eve, and half the day Christmas day. I do not want to keep you from seeing the children on Christmas." I then stated, "If you want to divide the presents, and you make a different day such as Christmas eve, then let me know, I'll work with you."<p>TR- I don't see why you want to divide the presents- but you gave him a choice..<p>He seemed even more upset and more offended that I had control of this holiday and when he will see the kids. The conversation was getting way out of hand, so I quickly said, email me, bye. I then hung up.<p>TR- Good For you in protecting yourself..<p>
I know he is going to try to get me to change my mind regarding Christmas day, I feel bad because he has indicated he may buy all the presents and put both our names on them. I also feel bad because I know how much he enjoys waking up to see the kids open their presents. <p>TR- So he can have them Christmas Day evening and get up w/ them on the 26th and watch them open presents..he can still enjoy this..<p>Now you need to figure out why you feel bad..that HE is suffering the consequences of his actions..
Is it because you aren't used to allowing him to 'feel' anything??<p>
1. He's indicated he may pay for the children's Christmas presents totally. So some how he should be able to see them open them.<p>TR- He's indicated this..but has he come right out and said that he would?? And is he doing this just to manipulate you..to get what HE wants??<p>2. I don't trust him in my house, I feel my safety is at risk.<p>TR- Your safety is more important than HIS happiness..<p>3. I want what's best for the children. In one respect a Christmas with their dad their opening their presents would be great for them. In another respect, the Christmas could turn out to be our worse nightmare, if he gets angry at me.<p>TR- This is best for your kids..Your feeling safe..and they will still be allowed to open gifts w/ dad..just not at the same as you..(I know my kids like the thought of having more than ONE day to open presents)<p>4. He doesn't want to do any of my alternative suggestions, but I really think I'm trying to compromise, and I'm trying to go beyond the court order to compromise as well. I just want to make the right choice.<p>TR- You have made the right choice for You..
and if he doesn't like your compromise..oh well..
he's a grown man..he can learn to live w/ it..
And why should YOU always be the one to compromise your feelings?? Why are HIS more important than YOURS???<p>5. To me most importantly, I can not trust him or his promises anymore. He tells me promises and contracts can always be broken. So, if he promises to behave it's worthless.<p>TR- okay..so why do you think he will do what he says?? Has he changed in other ways..to make you think he's any different now?? If not..TRUST YOUR OWN INSTINCTS!!! TRUST YOURSELF HERE!!!!<p>I really don't see an alternative other than to restate his choices. Divide the gifts. He can even have the best gifts to give them, tell him he can do either Christmas eve, Christmas evening or both... <p>TR- Why divide the gifts at all..have you considered that He won't buy any at all?? and just show up?? Or have you considered that he will just
put his name on them..and not yours?? And why are
You still trying to protect him and make him look good in your kids eyes??..ie: he can even have the 'best gifts' and I'll settle for the smaller ones..Why should you settle??<p>I just want to make sure there's not an alternative I'm overlooking...<p>TR- there is one other alternative..Take away all choices but the one the courts gave..and let him suffer the consequences of his actions..by what they stated..<p>I also wanted to add that He's got to learn that He can no longer manipulate you..and by your giving in..thats just what your allowing him to do..the Anna I have come to know and love has no use for manipulative controlling people in her life..she's stronger than that [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

Anna - <p>Sorry you are having to deal with this. Is there any way you could maybe have friends join your family for the time when H would be there??? This might allow him to participate - with safety valves for you.<p>Otherwise - I agree don't give in if it would be risking your safety.<p>AND - What does this mean - he's late with child support - but he's 'willing to pay for all the gifts' for the children? That sounded a bit pultry to me. Maybe I'm thinking my situation... which I can't imagine my ex even purchasing gifts for the children - let alone paying for ALL the gifts.<p>I hope things are going better for you. So much of our lives are tied up around others, we often forget to take care of ourselves. Make it a great holiday this year!!!<p>Jan

TR - I like your points better!!! you made really good ones - even if you are growling at your computer. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anna - listen to TR instead of me... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I like her advice better - - - but I'm listening... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jan

Anna, <p>One more thing..<p>If you allow him to manipulate this..what does this teach your kids about how to relate to others?? Does this teach them that they can just sweet talk their way into getting what they want by making promises they won't follow thru on??<p>What will they learn about your values and respect for other ppls feelings? And how will they learn to see that their feelings ARE just as important as another persons?? (ie: yes your respecting your stbx's feelings by allowing him to have the kids Christmas evening and opening his gifts w/ him the next morning..and yet, your also respecting YOUR own feelings by not allowing him to be at YOUR house so that YOU feel safe) <p>Your trying to give your kids something that is more important than anything 'money' can buy..
a sense of respect for self..and others..<p>Now something you need to look at..<p>You gave him a choice a long time ago..to change..
or not to change..he chose NOT TO..Now he's suffering..oh well..He needs to learn that these are the consequences of HIS OWN ACTIONS...<p>Just like w/ your son and his homework..he's going to have suffer his own consequences..now allow him see..dad also has to pay the consequences of his own actions..

Anna, your stbx's rage and lack of ability to take responsibility for his own actions really scares me. If he can't control it during a telephone call, and he can't adhere to your requests not to phone but to rather use email, then I would be really scared about trusting him with anything. PLEASE, DON'T let him in your house. Even if he never plans to hurt you, if he doesn't seem to have total control over his anger at all times (which he doesn't) then even HE is not consciously aware of the danger that he could be to others and possibly to himself. A good friend of mine was choked to death last year by her husband during a vicious fight that they had. I think he was blinded by his anger. He will have to live that the rest of his life and know that his children will always be scarred by the fact that their father killed their mother. <p>Stick to your guns. Better safe than sorry.

TR, AVA, Jan, and Jabber,<p>You all had awesome comments. THANKS!<p>Jan, on the child support, he's now up to date so no problems there for now. He doesn't have a job and at first he didn't want to ask for money a relative has set aside for him in a LLP. He finally asked for the money and this is why he has enough for the children. I think he feels a little guilty because even though this money is in his name, he knows the relative meant for me to have it too. I think this is why he's offering to foot the bill. He just paid for son's birthday gift and put our name on it, so I'm hoping he'll stick with this.<p>TR, I love your thoroughness. <p>The main reason why I don't worry about him getting the bigger gifts and me the smaller, is being comfortable with my relationship with tje children. It's not about who buys the gifts but who plays with them and their gifts afterwards. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It's also not about wanting the husband to look good to the children for the husband's sake, but for the children's sake. I want them to have a happy childhood. To me, this includes respect for both parents. I think sometimes growing up their father may fool them on some things, but when they become adults all will be understood.<p>About munipulation, you guys are correct I can't let him munipulate me. I need to stick to my guns on this.<p>You know, he is so amazing in the way he places blame. He finds a way to blame me for each abuse. He also amazingly blames me for breaking his promises. <p>The last time he came to the house and I let him in, I lived to regret this. I almost had to call 911. He had promised me he'd leave if he got angry, once angry he wouldn't go. He told me at the time promises and contracts can be broken. He's pointed this out to me on each promise he's broken in the past also.<p>Over the phone the other day, he asked me why he can't come in the house, I told him because I can't trust him to keep promises, I reminded him of the last time he was here and I almost called 911. He started in on the promises/contracts thing again. I said, "Well, that's exactly why I can't let you in, I am really sorry." He has excuses for each bad choice he makes. His actions are never his fault. I know even me allowing him not to come over, he'll still blame me. He'll never get that he did this to himself. Well, that's his problem now.<p>I feel like I'm punishing a child. He's an adult. I feel like I'm saying, "You were bad, so you can't come to see the children open their present Santa brought them." I know this is kind of the truth though. I am punishing a child, but it's for my own good, not his.<p>Regarding, giving him the time on Christmas eve and Christmas day, I was also thinking of the children's relatives. STBX has relatives in Texas that celebrate a tradition of dinner on Christmas eve and Christmas day, I mainly was thinking of the children and their need to continue this tradition.<p>All of you guys have convinced me, I won't let him in. Thanks for helping with the feeling of guilt. I think I just needed to hear I'm not being selfish. I kept feeling selfish about it all. I don't like feeling selfish.<p>Oh btw, Jan on your suggestion regarding the friends or family being here. I thought of this. Most friends have their own family to be with at Christmas so that wouldn't work. I even went as far of thinking too bad I can't hire a body guard, but that's just ridiculous. I also thought of his Aunt. His aunt could be here, but then I thought what stress on me. She thinks of him as her son. He can do no wrong. I am torturing him in her eyes for not being a perfect wife and accepting all his faults. That sure wouldn't be fair to me Christmas day.<p>THANKS AGAIN GUYS!<p>
ANNA

Anna - <p>Suggesting friends and family was more a knee jerk reaction/suggestion - I agree with you and others - inviting him over is dangerous. Don't do it.<p>Also do NOT assume that he's not influencing your children. I've seen so many who trust their spouse to do what is right by their children (including myself) and that is just not always the case. More often if they will hurt you - they will hurt your children too.<p>Long day - I'm having a difficult time relating to my own life - so take my suggestions with a grain of salt and understanding.<p>Hugs,<p>Jan

Jan,<p>Sorry your having a cruddy day.<p>Wanna talk?<p>If so you can talk here, email me or if you have MSN, I'll send you my email addy and you can chat with Jacky, Kat and I right now.<p>ANNa

Anna - <p>Thanks - I can't get my computer to let me back on MSN. I used to have it on here.<p>I just posted what's bothering me... I do have aol im - if any of you have that. "justjani"<p>Jan

Anna,<p>LOL..You know me...I try and look at Everything these days, learned the hard way on that by ignoring what I felt inside just to please everyone else..<p>If others think I am being selfish because I want to protect myself and my kids..well..To Damn bad..they can view me as selfish..I don't care anymore..I don't deserve to be treated that way
and NEITHER DO YOU!!! So if others view you as selfish because You want to protect yourself..well
Then I say BE SELFISH!!!<p>Just Don't feel guilty because you need to protect yourself

TR,<p>Well, no one has ever viewed me as selfish, if they have they keep it from me well. It's me not wanting to ever be a selfish person. <p>TR, you sound like you are having a bad night, too. Email me if you wanna vent, or if you have IM let me know I'll chat with you and try corny jokes out to cheer you up. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA<p>Hey Jan,<p>I don't have AOL. I have yahoo and msn.<p>I'll check your post out, maybe I can help....Sometimes just venting works though.<p>ANNA

Anna - msn let me on - I'm seekingjoy there too.<p>I'll try to find you on there.<p>I'm on yahoo too - my name is my addy there - but I'll message you, if you give me your addy.<p>Jan

Anna,<p>You were correct in your assement of my being frustrated..son had cut foot open day before yesterday took him to the ER, and daughter was sent home from school yesterday (I was busy on the phone and they couldn't reach me..so they had to call dad) he was calling me selfish because I didn't answer the phone..and HE had to take off from work to go get her..I had met my dad yesterday for dinner so he and I could talk..about the past..went well..I'll e-mail you later about that..but I'd asked stbx if he could watch the kids so I could go meet my dad..he said "NO, he had to go back to work..and wouldn't be home, and again that "I" was being selfish and that the kids
should come first for me, and that "I" should just reschedule this dinner w/ my dad (if thats really who your meeting) grrrrrrrr...so Yes..I was frustrated..<p>And I have found that sometimes..we need to be selfish if that's what it's going to take to help us take care of ourselves..so we can be better mom's...<p>Sorry for stealing the thread..and venting.. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ThornedRose:
<strong>Anna,<p>You were correct in your assement of my being frustrated..son had cut foot open day before yesterday took him to the ER, and daughter was sent home from school yesterday (I was busy on the phone and they couldn't reach me..so they had to call dad) he was calling me selfish because I didn't answer the phone..and HE had to take off from work to go get her..I had met my dad yesterday for dinner so he and I could talk..about the past..went well..I'll e-mail you later about that..but I'd asked stbx if he could watch the kids so I could go meet my dad..he said "NO, he had to go back to work..and wouldn't be home, and again that "I" was being selfish and that the kids
should come first for me, and that "I" should just reschedule this dinner w/ my dad (if thats really who your meeting) grrrrrrrr...so Yes..I was frustrated..<p>And I have found that sometimes..we need to be selfish if that's what it's going to take to help us take care of ourselves..so we can be better mom's...<p>Sorry for stealing the thread..and venting.. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>TR, <p>You weren't being selfish at all. He was being selfish by not taking responsibility and helping out. I sure could tell something was up! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm glad you vented, it's good to vent. Also, you are not stealing my thread, the topic of the thread is about ran it's course. I pretty much know what I have to do...I am just glad you feel comfortable enough to vent.<p>BTW, here's stbx's last email. I haven't responded back yet.

Would you be open to me watching the kids open their presents, and me leaving immediately afterwards, if we agreed on a third
party being present to dispel any anxieties you may have.
<p>I haven't responded yet. I am sure he's thinking of his aunt. <p>Jan,<p>I didn't see your post until this morning, I just added you to MSN. I hope it works. We have a great support group going.<p>C'ya'll later and feel free to vent on any of my threads. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA

Anna - it is your home. If you need a third person there, you choose them.<p>Just my opinion.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cinderella:
<strong>Anna - it is your home. If you need a third person there, you choose them.<p>Just my opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks Cinderella, you are correct it should be I who decides.<p>Unfortunately, there's no one I know of who doesn't have their own family Christmas morning.<p>If I had a boyfriend I guess I could invite him. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Heck, who knows? He may have his girlfriend in mind...EWWWWWW [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am hoping after this email I just sent perhaps he'll decide it can't be done Christmas morning and I won't be the one to make him mad...<p>From me to STBX,

Yesterday, out of the blue, older son says, "Can we open presents Christmas morning here with you and Christmas evening with dad."<p>I haven't spoken to him about Christmas, the plans, how we will do the presents, etc. I guess he's assuming.<p>On his list he divided what he wanted dad to get him and what he wanted mom to get him.<p>One of the things I thought also was a third party coming over Christmas morning. I see many complications with that...<p>First, the person would more than likely be your Aunt or Uncle. Everyone else has their own families. I don't know how comfortable I'll feel
having them and you here at the same time. I want to enjoy Christmas too.<p>Second, I don't know if the children will wake up at 6:00 or 9:00 a.m.<p>Third, I usually wake up and put on my robe, not worrying about anyone, because the children want to open their presents immediately. <p>Fourth, older son seems to be adjusting and accepting the arrangements we have. I don't want to confuse him. If I let you come this time, he
won't realize the real reason your Aunt or Uncle came. Afterwards I am concerned younger son and older son will continually ask if you can come over and say, "He did Christmas morning. Why not now?"<p>These are my concerns. I don't have your answer yet.
<p>Well, you guys can call me chicken, the name does fit. However, the other day I was talking to a friend and came to realize, I need to let him feel he has control and he made the decision as much as possible to keep peace, even if all along it's my decision.<p>I thought about how much easier it would be for me to say, "No, that won't work, you can't come.", but in the long run, I am not for sure it really would be the easiest way, because of the resentment and anger down the road that would result from this "this is how it is" decision. I will let you guys know his response. It he's still presistent in wanting to come, I will just have to resort to "No".<p>c'ya'll,<p>ANNA

His email back....

It's obvious you've set your own agenda for Christmas morning without regard for my feelings. I 'm not going to waste any further time on the subject. What ever you decide on we will carry forward from this Christmas on. If the kids want to come here the night of the 25th that's fine. I can return them Sunday evening. FYI, I don't have any Christmas decorations and don't plan on getting any. Perhaps I can take them to Aunt's or Uncle's or what ever they want to do.
<p>Well, there ya have it.<p>ANNA

What do you guys think?<p>Should I just respond and say...<p>"Thanks, I'll take them Christmas morning and you can let me know what time you want them Christmas evening..."<p>???<p>ANNA