It recently occurred to me that I have never enjoyed "dating", or what most people consider daing. Not before I met my exes, and certainly not now. Until recently, however, I believed that the typical dating culture was the only way to meet and get to know people of the opposite sex. <p>What is my view of the typical dating culture? You go out on a few dates. Maybe more than a few dates. In any case, within a very short time of getting to "know" someone (a month or two or three, who knows?), they start having sex. What the heck, it feels good. They are both nice people, etc. Even if the two people have good intentions, odds are they really know nothing about each other before they have sex. They do that for awhile, then one of them determines that a) they are not compatible marriage partners b) they don't want to be married to anyone right now. Either way, someone gets hurt and their now bruised self is left to patch up the pieces and TRY to be open with the next person, and the next person, and the one after that. <p>Recently I've been approached by quite a few men who want to "date" me, and my answer is always no. My impression is that these men (in general) don't really want to get to know me better. Ok, maybe some of them do. But even the good intentioned ones are looking for a romantic opportunity, leading to sex, most likely without a commitment. Then, OMG, if it just so happens that they "fall" in love then maybe they'll commit. Here's my problem. I used to love sex (really!), and it is hard as heck for me to be celibate. I sincerely doubt that I can happily remain celibate for life. Still, I've learned the very hard way how emotionally damaging and truly short-sighted it is to have sex hoping for long term, lasting love--even with someone you care about and who ostensibly cares about you. As much as it scares me, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, who knows) there is no way I will engage in a sexual relationship without commitment. That means, that if I want to have sex again it will have to be in the context of a committed relationship. Period. <p>I've read many articles about "courtship", but it is almost always geared towards younger people who have never been married/divorced. It is always religion based (usually Christian). I'm not a Christian and am opposed to the way some of it is taught to young people. One thing I do agree with however, is that the cycle of date, break up, date, break up, does not train people for marriage. I believe it does just the opposite. It hardens people's hearts and makes it more difficult to be intimate and truly commit to one person. I believe that my pre-marital sexual experiences (and those of my exes) made it difficult or impossible for either of us to have a successful marriage. I do not wish to repeat those mistakes.<p>If or when I decide to have another relationship, my intention is to follow the model of courtship. Theoretically, both people's intentions are for marriage and a life-time commitment. Their focus, therefore, is not on the present and what feels good for now, but to learn about the other person and spend their time determining if they are suitable for marriage. Since I am not ready for marriage, I have refused dates or any situations where romantic feelings would result. <p>I am concerned about one thing, though. Sex would probably be one of my top two needs (I'm like a guy that way) and there is still a part of me that is afraid I would end up committing to someone who either didn't like sex or who I was uncompatible with. How would one respectfully and safely determine another person's compatibility in that respect prior to marriage? Is there anyone out there who is familiar with courtship who could explain that one to me?<p>Oh, believe me, you cannot imagine how confusing this is to many of my girl friends. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, I would like to know if there are any groups or information about adult courtship, preferably that are not solely focused on the religious aspects of it.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

ts.... How would one respectfully and safely determine another person's compatibility in that respect prior to marriage? <p>snl..Ask them how they feel about pre-marital sex, and where they draw the line between physical affection (heavy petting)...and sex, may be as far as penetration, may be as little as french kissing, where each draws the line says something about compatibility, as well as the "honest" willingness to follow the more conservative ones boundaries. I have had very little experience with this, I did not have sex with w (or anyone) until I was prepared to marry her (and I said so, and I honored it, but that is another issue)....we did break up twice and I was promisucous with 2 other women (which made me feel actually pretty awful, cause I used em, maybe they used me too, both initiated on first date, but makes no difference). Dating is a poor way to select a mate, it is more organized infatuation/lust than it is anything else, as our culture practices it. I was always very uncomfortable with sex while dating, kissing was fine, and some touching, but often (fairly quickly) the girls wanted more, and I would run, somehow I knew that was the road to ruin (as in not a good basis for a relationship with people who gave away intimacy so easily, meant so little to them). People who view sex as a recreational activity, or the equivalent of a fine dinner have serious issues IMO, and make awful marriage material. I think it makes sense to make a marital committment before entering a full blown sexual relationship.<p>Most books and such dealing with this issue are pretty clear, if you want a relationship make friends first. If you want sex, and excitement date (singles scene, bars, etc.). Friends share common interests, hobbies, recreation, and do such things together....not dinner and a movie, and heavuy breathing at his/her place, car, whatever. You do a LOT of talking about anything and everything (in depth), you hang out a LOT with each others friends AND family, you are mutually supportive, you volunteer together, you work together on stuff whenever you can, you are HONEST you don't wear the mask, you don't pretend interest in stuff just to make someone choose you. <p>A typical date? Um........ go over to Janets house, help her do the laundary, jump in the car go to the local science museum, stop at Jack's mom's house later, fix a dripping faucet (one holding the tools for the other), stop and pick-up some Chineese, go to pam/bob house (Janets sister) babysit her neice for a couple hours (play with her, help Janet make her dinner, and Jack feeds her), wash the dishes together, put neice to bed, sit down and play a game of scrabble, while discussing the local election (vigorously cause don't happen to agree on candidates)...take janet home, and kiss her goodnight (long), while holding her tight, and maybe a little one on one tounge wrestling. That and some hand-holding, and sitting close etc. is the extent of the physical interaction. Many many of these kinds of "dates" is how you find the one.<p>Those who seek romantic circumstances, cannot keep hands off of you, and seem to have little interest in anything not romantic, or precursor to romantic, pretty much reveals where they are coming from. IMO even kissing someone should not take place until have spent a substantial amount of time together, maybe 3 or 4 months of exclusive "dating" spending 15-20 hrs a week together, as well as a lot of talking time on phone etc.<p>As to courtship paradigms. I think it is vital, that early on, maybe even before any real dating per se, you make it clear (before a casual friendship can morph into a "relationship), that for you, a relationship is part of a process, the first step to eventual marriage, and it is decidely exclusive for the period of time this process goes on. I would also do due diligence early, and run basic investigations on anyone you find yourself contemplating as a mate. Have a PI do routine public records checks (criminal, financial, legal), also verify (or you do so) the history you have been given re employment, militaty, FOO, schooling, residenctcy etc.<p>btw...part of this process is about seeing your "friend" under stess, external (not you) and internal (with you)...you want to see how they handle themself when tired, crabby, unhappy, angry, and such, how they problem solve, how they conflict resolve, etc. "Dates" are artificial, everyone is on best behaviour in predictable controlled circumstances, and "stuff" is usually minimized, and the focus on "making up"....what you should focus on his how people handle themselves when stressed, not after they recover...paying very close attention to anger, controlling behaviour, honesty, avoidance etc.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

This is RIGHT UP MY ALLEY TODAY!!! The dating world is confusing especially after a divorce. This is what has been taught to me by professionals who head a positive Christian group. Men want dessert and women want the full coarse meal. This is especially true if the man has been seriously hurt. Since women want a committed relationship with men they give in and go to bed early on with them hoping they will get the rest-but they don't. I know its not simple and its very hard but I have set boundaries and have raised the bar. There are men out there that will treat us women good -of course sex is on their mind-but they think we are worth the work and wait-thats the men we need to find-not to allow the bar to be dropped and lower our standards and go out with just anyone-because FINALLY SOMEONE finds us ATTRACTIVE!! We are worth the work and wait and there are men out there that think so and God will send them our way if we trust and believe in him. <p>I do not know if this helps but I had to chirp in because I lowered the bar this weekend and thankfully I did not do any physical act that I would regret but I dissappointed myself by putting myself in a situatin where someone treated me like I wasn't worth anything but a glass of water and a lawn chair to sit in at their apartment to watch a movie. The whole evening was about them than when I left at midnight and walked out to my car in this apartment complex-I stopped and realized they did not even walk me to my car to make sure I was safe-they shut the door behind them and didn't give me a second thought out their in the cold at midnight-what would have happened if I was attacked?? I mean this person is supposed to have a black belt in MA and worked for the secret service and they did not care about my welfare. Tells you something.<p>Anyways my bar is back up...I just hope that this guy doesn't come back around me because he will get the cold shoulder-no wonder why he is still single at 38!!!!<p>To some it up don't drop the bar-your too good for that!!! Its hard but you will get that someone special that your deserve!!!

dove...The whole evening was about them than when I left at midnight and walked out to my car in this apartment complex-I stopped and realized they did not even walk me to my car to make sure I was safe-they shut the door behind them and didn't give me a second thought out their in the cold at midnight.<p>snl...Whew, that is coooooooooooooooooold. The danger is many women would react and try to "fix" this person. Sure that they are the "one" who will get them to act differently....and the guy will play along, and they may even get married, and she spends a lifetime trying to fix him *shudder*.....far better to have a very high bar, and pass on these heartbreakers.

Tough subject. Courting involving the feeling of infatuated love (new love)(self love) is a lot of projection and fantasy role playing aided by chemical reactions within our bodies. How the other person makes us feel. That is why at first it feels effortless, because it is. And why later it takes work (more effort)to maintain a relationship. The bible calls this new love phase as being a fool for love, being love with love.
Moonstruct "Hey, snap out of it!". Please check out sites I listed on the bible belt. What do you think of women needing romance. Like unexpected gift or gestures of love? Good thing for more shelters, most thing work backwards it seems to me.

Your right this is a perfect topic today... I too nervious about 'dating', but I am also looking forward to getting out there and meeting new people...learning new things.<p>Currently I am reading a GREAT book...
The Birth Order Connection; Finding and Keeping the Love of your Life... by Dr. Kevin Leman<p>I have read some of his other books too and loved them... It is not a dry book, but funny and poignant.<p>He explains many of the point you made Student. No sex... learn about the person first. He gives many tips for what kinds of people work well together and who doesnt. It is a nice starting point for those without a clue, like me, who are trying to find their most compatible partner for a relationship that last a lifetime.<p>I plan on making sure I am not in those situations where sex would be an issue. But I think the most important part of that is talking to the potential person about your 'plan'. If they balk at it, you know that you shouldn't waste your time. If they respect your ideas, then great...you might have found a wonderful new friend.

Wow! I was just thinking about this on my drive in to work today. In fact, I told myself to do a search on the web for effective dating techinques. :-)<p>I've come to realized about myself that I'm very, very nervous about dating. Even when I was young, I always felt sorta out of control in this area. I had the "bar" set high when it comes to sex, but the whole dating process was/is still confusing and stressful to me.<p>Having only had sex with my H, and knowing that I will not have sex again until I'm in a committed relationship is the only thing I do feel comfortable with.<p>The part I feel the most unsure about is...the dating....getting to know someone...what if you find out they aren't necessarily the sort of person you would like to spend time with? How do you break it off nicely? I really struggle with this. <p>Also, I think the reason I want to date is to find a lifetime partner, not just to make new friends. I have plenty of friends.<p>Someone mentioned something about some links to other info...I didn't find them.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O

I second or third the comments on how timely this post is to my mindset these days. I haven't visited for awhile and wondered if any of the folks that went through the divorce about the same time were around looking for dating advice. I recognize some names. So I am now legally divorced for a few months now and right before my divorce was final I met a wonderful man. He is a few years older than me and never married. He has also never dated a divorced woman. I have been struggling with the notion that I have a good man in my life. And after having the string of men who treated me poorly (including my ex) I have a lot of practice in bad relationships. <p>I have a real hard time accepting his kindness, not because of anything he is doing or not doing, but I guess I feel if I accept his kind words then I am letting him in and I am very afraid to be hurt again...but then again, if I don't work through this I fear I will end up sending him packing. <p>Amazing how hard it is to let someone treat you nice after so many years.<p>So no advice on the courting. I think I got lucky to find a guy I refer to as my Heart Dr. I want to let go of the past it is just really hard, feels like free falling. <p>Anyone else going through any of this?<p>And by the way...I did do the dating thing last spring...before the divorce was final (but I figured he's thousands of miles away, and I was merely stuck in the rules of my state to wait for it to be final (6 mnths it takes)) and it was fun...man was I rusty [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hey...<p>Interesting thread... Yeah, I think the definition behind the term courtship makes a lot of sense. I would definitely look at it like that. Though, I've also listened to some who've said the casual dating thing is good for the ego before getting back on your feet. But, in the spirit of really caring about people, that wouldn't do. Seems to be just using them to suit my own purposes.<p>I'm no where near ready to date though I think about it all the time. My H is done. Though, he hasn't filed any paper work yet. He's happy with me living on the first floor, taking care of the kids, doing the grocery shopping for both floors and minding after the boy's clothes. I don't clean upstairs or do his laundry so there's where I've drawn some sort of line.<p>Though, I am not satisfied with this arrangement. So, I don't know how to move ON. I'd like to be in a loving relationship to demonstrate to the kids that yes, it can happen. My H wants to live like this until the kids are in Highschool... they're 4, 5 & 7 now.<p>Anyway, it's time now to build perseverence and gain some patience... I know you've given it lots of time and thought TS.<p>Cheers,
Nicole

read the book,<p> if the Buddha dated by Charlotte Kasl, PhD.<p>Chapter 29 Make Friends with your Fears <p> You are love itself - when you are not afraid.
----- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, I Am That <p> It has often been suggested that there are two basic emotions - love and fear. When we feel love we are free of fear and when we feel fear we are unable to love. For most of us these moments come and go like thoughts and waves: fear and love, love and fear. From a Buddhist perspective, if we're not feeling love, we're confused or caught in an illusion.
We can be afraid someone won't love us, and we can be afraid that someone will love us. If someone doesn't want to be with us, we fear being alone and feeling defective. If someone does love us, we fear we won't measure up, they'll leave, or we'll get bored. If we are feeling disconnected from our center, we can fear just about anything. . . . . . . . <p> On a more earthly level, we need to recognize that fear stems from the old familiar stories we've created to protect ourselves. But what is there to fear, really? As an adult no one can truly abandon us unless we're falling off a cliff and they let go of our rope. People will either stay or leave, just as we will. The only person who can reject us is us. . . . . .<p> Some of us have been conditioned not to recognize fear. Here is a brief list of behavior that often overlays fear.<p>1. Blaming, attacking, being defensive
2. Chattering, staying busy, being restless
3. Boredom, anxiety, sleepiness
4. Picking at people, being critical
5. Making excuses
6. Engaging in addictive or compulsive behavior
7. Putting on a mask of any sort.<p> The path from fear to love is the spiritual journey. When we tell the truth about ourselves, let go of compulsive behavior, stop making excuses, we will naturally feel less fear and more love because we've removed the masks of fear. We don't create love, we simply let go of our false selves, and feel the love that has always been shining brightly at the core of our being.
-----------------------------(end of chapter)<p>Remember your test about not telling anyone about your past? what do you fear about telling them? rejection?<p>if you like the passage, there is as much about dating in this book as there is in a Road Less Travelled, OK well, almost, OK page for page it is equivalent, although much smaller book.<p>TS, you may be setting yourself up for an impossible solution, just to satisfy something about yourself. . . .<p>dating during the social developmental years is for learning how to relate to the opposite sex, and to find out what kind of person you like to be with, and how to get along with the opposite sex. Dating at midlife is for companionship, marriage is not necessary, unless you want to have kids. . . <p>If you didn't do very well at the developmental stage, there is an increased probability that you won't be satisfied in a committed relationship.<p>read the book. . . .<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you didn't do very well at the developmental stage, there is an increased probability that you won't be satisfied in a committed relationship.<hr></blockquote><p>True, unfortunately. Gottman, in the "Relationship Cure" claims these patterns, behaviours, can be learned...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> True, unfortunately. Gottman, in the "Relationship Cure" claims these patterns, behaviours, can be learned...
<hr></blockquote><p>In order to be learned, one has to know that one does not have them, and then seek out where they cna be learned, and then preactice them until they can be second nature.<p>I have done this, having come from the unfortunate trade between social development and the academic performance. However, I generally view what i have done as an exception, (exceptionally weird)
but it can be done. But then again, most all of this marriage relational patterns can be learned, there is no rocket science here, just determination and desire is needed.<p>wiftty

WIFTT,<p>I know what your viewpoint is on dating. Yours is not too far removed from the example I originally posted and the model chosen most often by Americans. Too bad it doesn't often result in stable relationships. <p>I know what (some) Buddhists think about male/female relationships. Commitment is not in the vocabulary of the Buddhists I've met. Starting from scratch with new person every few years is not considered a waste of time. My personal observation is that people in long-term marriages are much more "enlightened" and mature than those who hop from person-to-person all their lives. Just my opinion.

WIFFT,<p>"Remember your test about not telling anyone about your past? what do you fear about telling them? rejection?"<p>No. I do not fear rejection. <p>The only people who know the details of my divorce are those who were in my life when I was going through it. The only people who know everything about my childhood are those who knew me when I was growing up. <p>Any time I've sought to explain events in my past to those who did not know me during that time, it almost always results in more confusion and chaos. Not to mention the fact that it gets really old playing that stupid record over and over.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My personal observation is that people in long-term marriages are much more "enlightened" and mature than those who hop from person-to-person all their lives. <hr></blockquote><p>I don't disagree with you. However, dating is a process to find the correct person, and if dating is done properly, there should be no regrets about the long term marriage selection, after which the maturity shines brightly.<p>I sense somehow you want to short cut the time process, and unless you are lucky, i don't think it can be done. Marriage mate selection takes time, and the older one gets, the smaller the pool of available candidates becomes, hence an increase in the amount of time required to go through an appropriate size pool of candidates.<p>I still suggest reading the book, reading won't hurt, and may even change your notions of how to select a good male friend.<p>WIFTTy

WIFTT you state <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I sense somehow you want to short cut the time process, and unless you are lucky, i don't think it can be done. Marriage mate selection takes time, and the older one gets, the smaller the pool of available candidates becomes, hence an increase in the amount of time required to go through an appropriate size pool of candidates.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, this seems to be the situation now. And I think your assessment is accurate that given the middle age status, to go thru the necessary pool will take time. However, if both parties are middle aged, likely both are looking for the same thing and you don't have to weed thru those just looking for a good time quite as frequently anyway.<p>I may check that book out... I've heard it mentioned several times on the boards over the past year.<p>TS... TS, I hear ya when you say you're sick of playing that old record. And I'm not even divorced yet and the story bores me already...<p>Some days though, I just dream about being in a relationship that has mutual flowing love in it... not perfection but two people striving to define and experience relating together warts and all! Will I be able to handle it? I don't know... <p>Take care,
Nicole

WIFTT,<p>You mentioned that I was trying to shortcut the time process...Yea, I had to laugh at that one. Three + yrs of celibacy and no "dating"---doesn't exactly sound like a person who is in a big hurry. Like, oooh, better snatch up a man before the supply runs out [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I AM interested in using my time effectively, and that means staying away from people who (for whatever reason) do not know what they want and situations in which it is easier for those kind of people to get away with being nebulous in their "intentions". Not that they are bad people or anything. I have a few friends (male and female) who have no apparent intention of ever marrying and seem perfectly content to find someone new every five years or so. It's not like I can't be friends with men who hold these beliefs. I simply won't allow myself to develop any romantic feelings for them or develop an intimate relationship with them under any circumstances. <p>Then there is the diminished dating pool "problem". You know, I could care less if there were one available man left on the planet. If he were a jerk, I'd stay celibate for life. There is some truth to it though. The men who are serious about commitment are most likely still married. By chance or circumstance, there will be a select few who may be available in middle age. I promise you, the decent ones will not be bed hopping in their search for "love" and are probably not following the "30-date rule". And...odds are they aren't going to settle for a woman that does either.

You guys have some good stuff out there...lets sumerized... and i want to add a couple more...<p>Look in the right places...
dont jump in the sack....
Make a list of MUST haves...and DO NOT settle...
It takes a year (or so..or more) for the 'new love' or fog to wear off and u see the 'true' person...
Be patient...You dont want to be in a relationship...when Mr/Ms. right does come along...<p>
I know when i get anxious to be in a relationship i have a quote i try to remember...
"Those who follow their emotions, will never lead with their minds."<p>Next time I want to make a conscious choice...love is a choice... I am older...wiser... more experience/prepared... I know more about me and what i need. Until then... just meeting people...going to the movies...having fun...and laughing again.

TS,<p>I haven't been on this site in a few months, and the last time I was here, you hadn't been around in a while. Have you graduated yet? I'll be posting my own update later today.<p>Your post (as usual), brings along so many different ways to look at this whole thing. However, I have to say, that it I do still understand where you are coming from.<p>The point about courtship, is scary because a friend of mine and I were talking about this a few weeks ago.<p>Remember all those dating posts that we all argued on?? Dating, and courtship, might have a different meaning to us all and that might bring some confusion.<p>I'm in a relationship now, where the first time, I might actually see some of those "courtship" behaviors, rather than just "dating" and feeling like someone is trying to "get in your pants", I hate to sound rude, but I've been on some dates that it seemed that was all they were interested in.<p>I also dislike dating, and I can relate to the importance of sex in a relationship, I don't know what the correlation is , if any, but I still give you a lot of credit on the celibacy issue. <p>I don't have an answer to you, except that I would say to me, courtship might be seriously taking time to get to know each other, and not focusing on "getting in bed" too soon. I watched a few old movies for the first time last week and it amazes me how different women were just 30 years ago even. It seems they were courted differently, although, women have such different careers now that I wonder if men don't realize we still want that courtship period.<p>Well, didn't mean to take you off subject, but I'd be interested to see what some men think of the term "courtship" compared to "dating". I also have only really heard of it in the Christian or more religious based books. Along with my grandma who asked what men do to court a woman these days, and I had no idea how to answer her.<p>Dana

TS -<p>I was chatting with my 16 year old about dating vs. courting this weekend - and she showed me something that I thought might be of interest to you, too.<p>She's written a list of traits - together with actions that indicate these traits, and labeled them as to their importance to her. If it's in the top priority list and they don't do it on the first date - they don't get a second chance. Etc. So basically she has ten chances to eliminate (so to speak) those who don't fit her priorities. Surprisingly, as we were talking, most of the boys she's dated have fit the listed traits - but have been dropped by the third or fourth date - because they are just not the kind of people she wants as friends... <p>She indicated that she feels by writing the list - she's somehow projecting the image of what she wants and has that quality of people inviting her out to begin with - so there are fewer guys in her 'group' who would NOT fit the 'trait list'.<p>I realize that the idea of having a 'trait list' to check off after every 'meeting' with a potential BF might be a bit overwhelming - but the idea might work - in some form. I know I have specific traits that I will be looking for in 'mate material' when I start looking again. And, like you, I'm really not interested in wasting my time on 'rif-raff' between now and then, so I am measuring anyone who asks me out - by my value system - before I willingly go out.<p>We might be onto something here - we could write a computer program that would sleuth through a guys' background and determine if he's a match for us or not - before we have to waste our time dating him... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I'm getting dangerous - I need sleep - sick kids last night and today... lol<p>Blessings,<p>Jan