Does anyone else have trouble handing their children over to WS and OW for visitations? My son is only 14 months old and doesn't really understand yet, but my H is currently living with OW and we are in the process of a divorce. There has been no court order as of yet, so visitations have been flexible. My H is not working and is "sponging off" of attorney OW so he has plenty of time on his hands and wants to see his son often. I know he loves his son and am glad he wants to be a part of his life, but on the other hand, he could care less of any moral or lack thereof influence he is teaching his son. I have refused to let him have overnights until he either has his own place or gets married. I also have a very hard time emotionally when he picks his son up at our half-way point and she is lingering in the shadows somewhere until the exchange takes place. I get angry that they play "family". She has taken from me all that is rightfully mine. She has taken my husband (of course he is a willing partner) and she also has a part of my sons life. I resent that she has stolen from me while I sit alone in the evenings and she is enjoying my son and H. I hate what she and he have done. I hate the message they are showing my son. A dads influence is pretty powerful especially as he gets older. There just seems as if there in no shame. They don't care. How narcissistic. I want to protect my son from that awfulness. I hate what they have taken from me and my son. They have robbed him of his rightful family as well. It is quite painful.
I guess all one can do is accept the situation and pray for protection for the children involved in this. Divorce is so ugly and so is infidelity. My son is so precious and innocent, its really sad what he will have to deal with, being torn from his mom to go to his dad and then torn from his dad to go back to his mom and on and on it goes. Doesn't anyone care or think about their children before they destroy their family with fulfilling their selfish, self centerd desires?

Hi-
I know exactly how you feel. I have to turn over my two daughters, ages 4 and 2, to my ex H and the OW every other weekend. OW was one of my best friends. She left HER sons to be with my H. (She has them every other weekend as well.) I also have a 7 month old son. Legally, he doesn't have to go to overnights until age 2, but just now is starting to have visitations with them. It literally makes me sick to my stomach. I was pregnant when I found out about their affair, pregnant when we "tried" to make our marriage work(tried in quotes because only one of us tried, the other continued his affair.) He left us for the third time to be with her when I was 8 months pregnant. This woman left her own children, and she is now MY children's stepmother. My ex H left his own children because something (someone) was more important than them. And I am supposed to think they will act in the children's best interest? They got all of the children together for an overnight 3 days after they left their respective spouses. They got married 3 days after our divorce was final. It is hell for me. <p>My 4 year old has many questions - "Why aren't you and Jess (OW) friends anymore?" "Do you like Jess?" "Do you still love Dad?" "Where is Jon?" (OW's ex husband.) I try to answer honestly and appropriately. But anyway, before I start rambling too much, I wanted to share what has comforted me. (And if you aren't a Christian and this offends you, I apologize. I just know it has helped me feel better.) I believe God loves my children much much more than I love my children. And he WILL look after them and protect them, far better than I ever can. I am learning to trust Him, and that always makes me feel better. Even when I want to cry, scream, curse, yell and sob. Even when I hear about their attempts to get all the kids together and play happy family. Even when I think about how this ISN'T supposed to happen to me, or to my children. How can this be in God's plan??? But then I remember He loves me too, and his plans are better than mine. I keep reminding myself that when I am sad and lonely. And He has kept his promises to me, even throughout this valley. I wish you the best. I know exactly how you feel!!!!!<p>WhoAmINow

WhoAmInow
Thank you so much for your reply it was very enocouraging. I too am a christian and am beginning to really learn what it means to stay close to God as I go through my valley. Uhg! It sure is painful, but God is in control and does love my son more than I ever could. I need to remember that. I can only protect my son far. I'm so sorry for your situation. How painful to hear those questions from your children and hand them over. (do you ever wonder how they, your exH and OW can live with themselves for what they have done?) But,if I think about it, I would rather be in this situation and in Gods plan than in their situation and out of Gods will. We have a lot to teach our children don't we? Thanks again for that reminder and encouragement. I really needed that. I will keep you and your children in my prayers and will keep pressing on. It will be interesting to see how things will unfold in our lives. Take care

Don’t let your h take the children if he will be with the ow!<p>If/when the divorce is final then you don’t usually have much of a choice but as you’re still married.<p>Almost any court will agree the child should NOT be around the op, especially if the child stays overnights and the ws/op stay in the same house.<p>Tell your h he may have your son ONLY if the ow is NOT around.

<p>[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: MMMMM ]</p>

Thanks for all your replies. I tried the "I'm not giving my son over to you with her present" route and I was met with such major resistance from H and his attorney and even mine to some extent that I conseded to let him have my son when I thought she would be at work etc. but eventually she came into the picture. I really did not want my son NOT to have a relationship with his father because I believe that is important so I tried to be somewhat flexible. I found,however, when I tried to do the right thing he took advantage of it and now is pushing for overnights, this is where I draw the line no matter how much resistance I get from him or his attorney. <p>My H has a borderline personality disorder and can be very manipulative and even verbally abusive when I put up strong boundries and sometimes I consede because I get tired of feeling stressed with each encounter with him.
I need to set appropriate boundries until I am legally bound by judges orders. I'm glad to hear that most courts would agree with not wanting the children around the OP until legally married. I sometimes feel that the courts are so liberal that it doesn't matter much.<p> I do trust God will help me and I feel that He is in control of all and I cling to that as I try to make the best decisions possible and stand up for what is right. When God is for us, who can stand against us. It really can't get more powerful than that.

Wow TornAsunder -<p>We are on exactly the same wavelength! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Another verse I find helpful is the one about all things working together for good for those who love Him.
I too would rather be on this side of the fence - the side that tried everything to keep her family together, the side that tried to abide by God's laws, and the side that didn't let her own selfishness harm the family. I truly don't know how my ex and the OW can sleep. Yes I do, they justify their decisions with Clintonesque play on words, and twist and spin everything. That and their divine right to be happy. They have to be hoping that what goes around doesn't come around!<p>I found the courts to be distressingly liberal. I was unable to block her presence around my children before the divorce was final. I was advised it was useless to even try, except in cases of abuse to the children. They snuck her into situations I thought would be OW free, out of decency. Then I realized I was the only decent one. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know there is no way I could've gotten through this whole thing without God, and I'm actually quite thankful for things he has done for me in the last year. There are also some things I could've done without, but I have become stronger. I hope your Christmas is a great one - you'll be in my prayers as well!<p>WhoamInow

I, also, am in the same situation. My H. filed a motion last week saying he wasn't being allowed visitation with the kids (not true). Up until that point, we didn't have set visitation or temporary child support. We ended up in court last week. He gets the kids whenever his flying schedule allows up to two weekends a month. The judge did put in the following stipulations:<p>1. There is to be no other person in his apartment when the kids are present. Interesting, since he and his OW share an apt. Her voice is even on the answering machine. However, he told his lawyer that she wasn't present... SO....<p>2. No alcohol. He is a problem drinker.<p>3. No cussing in front of the children. Or physical violence. Hmmmmmm....<p>4. He must take the kids to their scheduled activities. Took them last night, and though Kyle was ready---he didn't think he needed to take him to his cub scout meeting. This is going to work well--I can tell.<p>My kids are 18, 16, 10 and 8. They know and disapprove of what he has done. Their life is here....and they won't have much time to go up there---except for the two little ones.<p>Does it tear my heart out to have them go and visit their father....yep. He has destroyed our family. And he and his OW are selfish, self-centered people. He has brought her around them since he moved out April 1st--and doesn't think anything is wrong with it. He is in bliss and is trying hard to buy his kids affection back.<p>I don't know what the future is going to hold. This whole thing has been so sad. He has written off our 25 years together, rewritten our history, and is anxious to move on with his life. I wish he would just leave us alone...I don't want to deal with him anymore.<p>Have to run. I will keep you all in my prayers---I think this situation is sad for all of our families.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: miserynmissouri ]</p>

tornasunder,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My H has a borderline personality disorder. . .<hr></blockquote><p>how do you know this? was he tested?<p>Is he very nice, then gets very different, weird, seemingly very protective of something? almost spoiled if he doesn't get something?<p>WIFTTy

WhenIfindthetime'<p>My H and I have attended marriage counseling almost from the beginning of our marriage. It wasn't until after he began his affair and after I found out that I went back to the counselor on my own and asked him specifically what is it with this guy?! Because this was just a culmination of things over the years. He told me H has a borderline personality disorder and has not been able to tell him because he has been very unstable and didn't think he would be able to handle it yet. Shortly after that, I, nor my H, had ever gone back for counseling so the therapist had never told him.

I bought a book called Stop Walking on Eggshells and it fits him to a tee. He is very nice and sweet one moment and all is well with the world and the next he becomes rather cruel and verbally abusive. I wouldn't even understand what happened in the 10 minute timespan between the two "personalities." He was and still is very, very manipulative and any attempts to put up boundries is met with severe ramifications. He is reactionary and believes that what he is feeling at that moment is reality and he lives that way and acts upon it. Black and White, all good or all bad. He lives in the moment and gives no thought to the future or consequences to any of his actions.There is not much gray in between.

When we where dating he put me on a pedistal and I couldn't do much that was wrong, now in marriage, he sees the imperfect person and had a hard time handling it. Soon I became all bad and he justifies his affair because of it. This OW is everything that I am not and nothing I cold do would change that. <p> I'm currently seeing another therapist on my own and she is very knowledgeable about BPD because she counsels them. She has been so helpful in helping me set up boundries for myself and for helping me to know how to protect myself emotionally. Basiclly, I determine what I need to keep myself emotionally safe and then set up my parameters and then tell him clearly what they are and the consequences if those parameters are violated.
Its very stressful, because each move has to be planned and thought out on my part and I have to be sure I can carry through what I say. It has been very helpful, this counseling, because it gives me such clarity with what I have been dealing with all my marriage, and it makes sense.
My H came from a very abusive home which I quess is where the BPD often developes because it is a survival mechanism, but then it becomes a part of their being and character and is VERY difficult to change. My counselor has said there is counseling strickly for Borderlines and if they are serious, there is recovery, but it takes a good two years of serious retraining.

As of this moment, my H has no clue about his BPD and my current therapist has said that this is a real diservice to him, but it is not my responsibility to tell him, for one thing it would not be received well. But at least I know how to take care of myself and my son and sinse we are living apart and going through a divorce the distance has been healing in many ways.

very good description, but how was the diagnoses made? by you? by relating events to your therapist? by the joint counselor? btw, BPD people don't like therapists and counselors because they professionals can resist the manipulation, or see through it.<p>i believe my XW suffers from it, in addition to a few other disorders. I know the drill, I have the book, and i found answers in the book that have plagued me for 15 years. I felt a whole lot better after reading the book. specifically, there was an example in there that was almost verbatim to what XW had said. That was priceless!<p>I think that you will find that BPD people will go through people very quickly. I think that my XW's most severe episode was brought on by peri menopause. . . . and her mom had the same thing happen to her.<p>Also, she got very frustrated with me not being as able to be manipulated as i slowly figured out stuff, and wised up. then she went and manipulated a therapist to say that we need to separate, of course, i could not be present. yada, yada, yada . . .<p>now, she manipulates our 9 yo daughter, and then 9 yo daughter comes over here and her manipulation doesn't work, as doesn't 12 yo son, and all hell breaks loose. <p>Did your STBH do the face reading very well? Mine did, and then she claimed to see something again, and it wasn't true, and now as i watch, she constantly uses faces with the kids, and often sticks her face in their face, without words, and 9 yo daughter now tries to read my face, and her interpretation is not usually correct. .. . <p>hmmmm, it does go in families, which i didn't even understand until 18 years after i met this person.
I was once on a pedestal also, and then i made a few mistakes, and bam, i was not to be trusted for anything. . . . . very black and white, . . .
very reactionary. . . . .<p>doesn't think at all, doesn't listen very well.<p>even yesterday, i asked a simple, straight forward question, and she went on to explain something about her stuff, and so 5 minutes later, had to ask the same question to get an answer. . . .
i suppose that someday, karma will get them, but i doubt it, they just keep moving on to the next person. I remember that XW said that she was befriending someone and had an agenda for her. . . <p>I could go on and on, but i hope you feel better in that you are not alone. this is a really weird disorder, and these people have friends, but only if they mean something for them, or have something for them, etc. I was a director of finance at a intl corp based in mass, and was traded in for a maintenance person at X's school.<p>The reasons i was given: i am too independent, i was not there for her 10 years ago, and i am too rich, i worked too hard for money. we had been broke when our first child came, and i was unemployed. sorry, just don't let him get you down, its not about you, , , , its about someone else's immediate gratification, and lack of desire to seek help. . . .<p>good luck<p>WIFTTy

Hi guys...<p>Can I jump in here? I'm wondering if there's not something bi-polar going on in the relationship I have with my H. Would either of you care to extrapolate a little more... what/where can I find the diagnosis description? I'll have to look for that book you mentioned.<p>WIFTT, you indicate a particular passage in that book that meant so much. Is it too long to quote here? I'm really looking for some answers... I'm suspecting either I am bi-polar or my H has some personality thing going on.<p>I'm not the description you say about the therapist though... I'm in there trying to work on my issues and am not afraid to shine the light inside. My H on the other hand wants nothing to do with it... he says, "They don't know me so how could they have any help for me." He makes up his mind and that's it. He's fixed in his decision. He states he tried and tried for years to make this marriage work ... only he didn't include me in his thoughts as he made the decision to separate last year. Whew!<p>Anyway, any more you could shed about your personal experiences will help me get more basic/tangible information about the disorder... I've been doing some searching on the Net. I think I will ask my counselor next time, if she suspects anything like this in me...<p>tornasunder, do you know the type of cslg that your cslr recommends - the two year thing - for recovery of this type of disorder? I'd like to research this a little more b/c if this is me, then I want to address it now before any other relationships are destroyed... like the one with my children!<p>Thanks. Great thread. Sorry that you're having the situation with your ex... I'd be diggin' my heals in the ground about overnight *happy family* visits... although someone did have a point, if your H isn't doing the basic necessities for the child, it might get old quick. However, I hope it won't turn to neglect.<p>Take care and have a great weekend folks!<p>Warmly,
Nicole

Whenifindthetime,<p>My counselor figured it out over a period of sessions with my H and with the both of us, based on his history and also some information that I gave him as well with our solo sessions. He fit the criteria in the DSM3r book. The psych. diagnosis book. My H actually liked counseling and was always a willing participant because I believe he truely wanted to work on things and probably thought things would work out if I made the changes that needed to be made. He also enjoyed the drama of a tearful session.<p>I don't know if the counselor did him a diservice by not telling him, but, I'm beginning to think so.<p>I don't know if there is any special testing that is done, like there is for ADD or so. I think its an overall evaluation over a period of time and a history.<p>My current therapist tells me that my H needs a woman to "stabilize" him, and when things become too "normal" or boring, thats when he will probably move on to someone else who can stabilize him. This OW makes a lot of money and already has a ready-made home for him. He stopped working and is living of off her (pretty neat huh?!!) He bolted when I became a stay-at- home mom with my son and he couldn't handle me not bringing home the bacon, even if he was working at the time. He couldn't stand the fact that I would be spending his money and not making any. Some husband and father huh? Now he basically has it set up where he doesn't really have to earn a living, gets all his needs met and tries to see his son as much as he can. Kinda like a stay-at-home dad at a distance and without all the mundane inbetween responsibility stuff. I can't figure out how this lawyer OW can be so clueless. I don't know, maybe she isn't, she's just very needy and had to take what wasn't hers. <p>I had a really hard day today, I had to hand my son over again and my H looked very happy. It doesn't seem right that he should be happy. He and his psuedo family unit that he recreated. Just when I'm feeling godd about most things and feel like I'm dealing with the pain pretty well, it sneaks up on me rather unexpectedly. I wasn't prepared for how angry I felt again. I really hated the man. <p>But then I thought back on how God has taken care of me so far through all of this and know He will not leave me, ever. <p>OVRC's
I don't have that info on me right now. I forgot what it was called, but I will contact my therapist to get it for you. There is a list of trained therapists who are specialized in this area and only treat borderlines. I'll keep you posted with any new info I may find out.<p>I hope everyone has the best Christmas possible. I'm going to be out of town for awhile and looking foward to it. I need to get away. It's long overdue.<p>Whoamiknow
Have a blessed Christmas also. You are in my prayers.

It looks like I need to get this book too because it's starting to sound alot like my husband. Uncanny...........

The book is<p> Stop Walking on Eggshells; Coping When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder <p>or<p>click on Stop Walking on Eggshells<p>however, nicole, the person is very weird acting, not normal, very black and white, think of BPD as a super, super sensitive person who fears everything, who is trying to prevent the ever present empty feeling inside him/her from emerging. . . .<p>and anything that resembles failure or out of control is off limits, the MT feeling comes back again. . . .<p>the book is cheap, but the information doesn't sound like your H, don't know about you though, but in the introduction, the author states the book is NOT for the BPD, but for the person dealing with the BPD mate. . . .<p>WIFTTy

Hey...<p>Thanks for the link, I just looked it up and spent another 1/2 hr looking up related sites from that one link. <p>sWIFTTy, when you say <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but the information doesn't sound like your H, <hr></blockquote> ...how are you making that assessment? Just curious.<p>From what I've read, I think it sounds a bit like him. Unfortunately, I think it sounds a bit like me too, in some respects.<p>I think I'm going to ask my therapist about this next time I see her.<p>Cheers and Merry Christmas!<p>Nicole

Hi tornasunder,<p>I know how you are feeling about the handing over times. It's just over a year for me now on that road, don't have to see H now because of the plan B. I have arranged a place where he can drop off/ pick up the kids. I don't like at all the OW's influence in their life. My youngest one was 18 months, when this all started, his short life has been really confusing.
I got interested to find information about the borderline personality disorder. I couldn't believe it, I'm not convinced, but it's very likely that's what H has got.
He has a childhood trauma, his mother died when he was 15 months.Had a distant father and constant stream of housekeepers coming and going,his Fs 2nd wife died too, and when the 3rd one arrived (H's current stepmother) H(6 years old by then) asked her: And when are you going away??<p>Here's one link , which made me think that just about all WSs have at least mild BPD!!!!!!!???????<p>http://members.tripod.com/SerenitySprings/bpd.htm