I have to go to court this morning.<p>I was finally served with Divorce papers last night around 6:30pm.<p>My W and I met on Tuesday night and talked for about four (4) hours. We came up with a tentative custody agreememnt that we are going to tell the judge today. Ie today. I just prau that my W upholds her end of the agreement.

{{{EmptyShell}}}
My prayers going out to you. My H and I are using 1 lawyer as we are not fighting over anything. It's much cheaper; but I am not happy about the divorce, just giving him what he wants at this point. He feels there is no love left (I feel he's running away). Know that my thoughts and prayers are with you today...<p>MOM

ES,<p>I am praying your daughter gets what she needs today.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

well, everyone ought to be very happy . . . including Anna. Once again the father in this siutaion has benn screwed.<p>I tried to do the right thing. I let my D go back to her mother. I finally got MSBXW to sit down and work out arrangements witrh me then other night.<p>She went intocourt and completely contradicted what we had agreed on. I am just about ruined now. I am aloud to see my daughter a wopping 6 days a month. . . . Yea I can provide such a role model for her in six friggin days a months. The child support I am being rforced to pay is so high, the I will be forced to try and find a cheaper apartment in order to survive. . . . and you know what. . . I live in the cheapest apartments in town.<p>My SBXW and my MIL have finally gotten their way. . . not only have I lost my D. . . . I have been destroyed financially, as well as emotionally.. . . There is nothing else to say. . . It's over. . . This is the end of the game.

Well, I'm not happy ES. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm very sorry this has happened to you, and I DO understand you're being forced into an entirely new life situation against your will.<p>I don't know what else to say...

Did you contact any of those lawyers who work probono? There is also an organization called "FAther's Right to Custody" you might want to do a seach. Did you bring up your wife's mental condition and her suicide attempt? I know financially you are stapped but w/o a some legal representation you are going to continue to get screwed over.

ES,<p>Hmmm? Do you think I am happy about it? Happy that a family broke up when you guys didn't have to...Happy that a little girl was put through hell during her Christmas...Happy about a father now only gets to see his little girl 6 days a week? Which part am I happy about? ES, you are so wrong.<p>I am only relieved that this mess has been put in the judge's hands for your daughters sake, this needed to get resolved. You have to know this...<p>How is your daughter? How did she take going back to her mother? This is typical, one person usually gets every other weekend. Please don't think the world is out to get you on this one. Your child has to have some kind of stable environment, she must be able to go to one school and have some stability. Also, when it comes to the money in child support, I am sure the judge awarded your wife the standard amount, each spouse in here who didn't get primary custody is having to pay this, not just you, there is nothing you can do about that other than know that your daughter will not go without. That should be some comfort to you.<p>If you think you are better able to take care of your daughter than your wife, perhaps you might consider saving your money, getting a good lawyer and fighting for primary custody. If not I'd says use the quality time you can to make the most of it. <p>Also, perhaps your wife will give you more days later down the road. I don't agree with the dad getting the days he gets. I work with my stbx, I have told him he can come by and take them to dinner anytime he wants, I also give him extra days when the children are out of school and during the holidays I gave him more days. I see the importance a father's role is in my children's lives. However, I also see how much carting them from house to house can be too much on the children. Once when we were doing too many extra days, my son told me he didn't think he had a home, he felt homeless because all he was doing was packing and going from place to place. They have to have stability. Our court system does think of the children first. One parent usually ends up suffering over this, it's sad, but just a fact.<p>Take care and good luck.<p>ANNA

Dear Empty Shell,<p>Is this the final child support hearing? In Tennessee where I live, they have a pendilight hearing first that is just temporary and can be appealed. You said that this was your first day in court, so I am hoping that you may be able to improve your situation in an appeal.<p> Also a word of wisdom for any future agreements with your wife - bring a little tape recorder and tape any aggreements you may make between yourselves. But do be sure to let her know that you are recording the aggreement beforehand to cover your bases legally. I have been told that it is common for spouses to change their tune in court and recording like this is quite common.<p>Unless this is the final disposition, don't give up. The lawyers cost money, but heck, it may be money well spent in the long run.<p>I am going to court at the end of January, so I understand how you feel. My husband left almost 2 years ago, and has not paid any child support. The referree let him get by without starting to pay, so I am having to appeal it to the Judge. I may get screwed too, but I am going to take the risk. So good luck to you and me too!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lisa

ES,
Sorry to hear the sad news. It is my understanding that in most states, that minimum visitation includes a night a week or every other week. I know thats not much, but every little bit counts.<p>Any chance stbx will allow more visitation???
Here in Oh they encourage the parents to work out the visitation schedule, but if there is no agreement then the standard visitation, every other weekend and one nite a week takes affect.
My prayers to go out to you.<p>Bob<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: RWD ]</p>

There goes POJA.<p>If you can't learn it when you are married, very hard to learn it when divorced.<p>UGGH.... I'm truly sorry for EVERYONE'S concerns. SO UNECESSARY to destroy all of these lives.<p>I would just like to shake some sense into both hopeful and ES.<p>UGGHHHHH.<p>tnt<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: trustntruth ]</p>

ES?<p>I'm wondering how you are...<p>I hope you come back and tell us.

Well, it's been a couple of days. . . I can't begin to describe the way I feel.<p>Keeping my daughter for a week, prompted my SBXW to sit down with me for a change and try to talk about my D. We spent over four hour talking and when I left that night we had come to an agreement concerning my D. When we got into court, my SBXW went out of her way to do exactly the opposite of what we had agreed to two days before. I tried to do things the "right" way. I tried to be fair, and place my D first. I was raped in court again. I ahve always been a strong believer in law and order, and the justice system we have in this country. . . .My virtue of my sex, I am labelled as incompetent as far as being able to raise my D is concerned. I have so many thing that I want to say, but I know that it is not safe to do soon these forumns. . . . .<p>The betrayal that I feel over this is so much more devastating than I felt when she was having her affairs. . . .I just can't even begin to explain.<p>I have had some very dark thoughts about what my alternatives are now, and the medication the doctor has me on, hasn't done a whole lot to help alleviate the severe depression. I haven't been home very much since I left the court house either. I don't know if I am hiding exactly, but I know that I don't want to be here.<p>Myownme -- Thank You for the prayers. . . I desperately need them right now.<p>new_beginning -- I don't really know what else to say either. . . giving up has come to mind an awful lot the last couple of days.<p>KalGrl -- Yes I did contact the pro-bono organizations. They ask one question. . . .How much I make, then they tell me that they can not help. This is actually part of the things my SBXW and I discussed the other day. . . .She knew that if she carried on with the ways things were going, she would be destroying me, financially and emotionally. . . .Obviously that is what she wanted.<p>Lisa -- Thank You for your thoughts. I truly wish I knew how to fight this. . . but unfortunately, I don't know how to do much of anything right at this point in time.<p>RWD -- My SBXW made it quite clear in court that she felt she was being very generous by allowing me six days a month to be with my D. . .and the the judge seemed to think she was being very generous. . . .I wish that every single judge that does this to fathers could have the same pain inflicted on themselves, without the ability to defend themselves.<p>trustntruth -- <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>SO UNECESSARY to destroy all of these lives.<hr></blockquote>Your entirely right. . . I wanted so badly to do this without making things come out this way. . . My SBXW and my MIL are probably jumping for joy that I am being completely and utterly destroyed in all of this. . . I am basically ruined.<p>new_beginning -- I am NOT doing well at all. Again this is not the place to really discuss what I am truly feeling, because all it wil do is lead to more attacks for some members of this forumn. There is so little left of who I am right now, that I simply could not go through that too.<p>Well everyone, that is the latest update. . .It's just about time to give up.

es, I wasn't present for the history here on the board between you and wife, and have no reason or desire to choose side, or say I told you so's, or make well-meaning but useless platitudes, I do feel for you, but that is true I think of most here about each other.....mostly I deal in concrete suggestions, so I will offer a couple.<p>1. Your daughter is an individual, she WILL make her own determinations of who you are as she grows, and you WILL have a relationship. I am not totally removed from your difficulties, my brother pretty much got screwed like you are when he was dumped by his wife, his daughter was the same age (this was some years ago). He too was very angry (and he saw her less cause lived different states), and he wouldn't get passed it, and had very poor relations with his wife. But worse, he didn't really make much of an effort to be the dad with what he had to work with...true, would have meant sacrifice, he chose to continue to work (and live) far enough away logistics were tough. He did take her for Christimas, and couple weeks in the summer, but it wasn't enough, the girl is a teenager now, and pretty much out of control (very poor mothering as well)....but I always wonder if my brother had buckled down and worked with his wife, whether the outcome might have been very different. I had a second brother, same scenario, (and his xw is a major loser too), but he lives nearby, maintains best relationship he can with w, and sees his son alot. I spect with son is older, he may choose to live with him, they can do that you know.<p>The point is do the BEST with what you have, if you don't you risk losing it all. IF you do work with it, the future is yet unwritten, you WILL be a positive influence in your childs life. But you MUST get along with w, have a positive attitude, and do what is legally required of you....it is your choice.<p>2. Keep a journal, write letters to your daughter, long letters about your life, what is going on, stuff you would say to her if she lived with you, and keep them, give them to her someday when she is older. I firmly believe if the non-custodial parent works hard with what they have, there will be equity, either the custodial parent will relax and you can do a good job of co-parenting, and/or around 12-14 the child has a lot to say about who they live with, and may want to live with you to reconnect and such, if you make yourself desireable, and avoid too much hassle with other parent over the years. There is also computers and such, that offer a wealth of opportunity to interract with your child in real time, if not real presence. Even video, maybe helping with homework, or interacting with projects etc....none of this will happen if you give up, it isn't going to be the way you want, but it could be worse, much worse. You are hurting now really bad, and it all seems hopeless, but it is not, she knows who her daddy is, and she is going to want to interract with you, what you do now WILL have a huge influence on her for good or bad. Don't give up ES, just do a good job with what you have....and keep in mind this is a short time, soon she will grow up and you have a lifetime to continue on with what you start now, don't blow it. At the very least, make a decision to sit on this for 6 months, grin and bear it, while you educate yourself to the legal intricacies involved, read everything you can, talk to everyone you can...and plan a your wife.

ES, I truly do have sympathy for you. It isn't fair. <p>I have maintained since my first marriage/divorce that we have a court system that isn't anything about justice, only about decisions. If you want justice - don't look for it on this earth. I just don't see it happening.<p>I also know EXACTLY about what you say about the pain that you feel - being far worse than the pain from affairs. My X and his OW sabatoged me for many years - and finally ended up with custody of my two older sons. It broke my heart, and it hasn't healed. That was many many many moons ago. The pain from losing our children is the worse pain that there is. I know what you are saying. <p>If we thought pain from being a BS from an affair was bad - we have no idea until we lose our kids.<p>I am just sooooo sorry that you two could never learn POJA. This is so sensitive to me, because although my husbands affair has been over for many years, and I have done a good plan A, his refusal to follow POJA may land me right here at the D forum. Thanks a lot, Mr.TNT. It is too much to handle, and you DO have my sympathy.<p>Yes, these lives didn't have to be destroyed. UGGH! You guys were doing so good - and lacked that one ingredient, same as me and Mr. TNT. <p>Please take care of yourself, ES, please please please - because even though it is only 6 days, I have a feeling it will increase - when the reality of all this sets in for hopeful. It is going to take her a while, I'm sure. She is only having a taste of what betrayal is about - she has only had the fear of betrayal. She doesn't have a clue. <p>And, hopeful, I don't mean any disrespect. But you don't know what it feels like, I'm sorry.<p>TNT

ES, <p>I understand that you are not able to get the support you need here. I have been trying to check back on you periodically. Please know that there are those of us here that do feel for you and your situation. <p>Life?? Is not always fair. Regardless ES, resolve to live your life as best as you can. That is definitely within your control. Whether you are rejected by all you love or not, live your life the best you can. <p>I pray for you ES, that you are able to love yourself as you have unselfishly loved your W and daughter. <p>You do have friends here that care for you. <p>Take Care,
L. <p>ps: All you 'guys' out there that can help ES off site, please do so. This situation makes it so that it would probably be better if the girls remain somewhat neutral. <p>Mahalo,
L.

sad_n_lonely -- Thank You for your thoughts, and especially about the letters to my D. I think that might be a very good idea. . . Now I just need to figure out how to start writing to her. . . . . <p>trustntruth -- Thank You for your thoughts they do mean a lot to me, even thought I am not doing a very good job at expressing things right now.<p>Orchid -- <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I understand that you are not able to get the support you need here. I have been trying to check back on you periodically. Please know that there are those of us here that do feel for you and your situation.<hr></blockquote>There was a time when people could come out to these forumns, and received unquestioned support from everyone. As long as you weren't attacking everyone and everything in the process, you could pretty much be gauranteed to get some direct support, and at times even off-line support support. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that seems to have changed. . . <p>It is so very hard to be positive when absolutely everything is falling in around your shoulders. When everything that you have known to be true has been suddenly torn from you. There are days when I feel as though I have lost my very sanity, and then there are daays when I think I feel it coming back, only to have it shatter before my eyes.<p>I have asked myself so many times, what it is that I did wrong in order to bring all of this onto myself. I have tried to find something of myself in the rubble that is my life, so that I can start to rebuild. . . yet all I see are shards of a life I thought I understood. My life as I have known it is over. . . I just don't know where to go from here. . . .

es, there was a time when I thought I might me where you are now, and I had contemplated the writing thing, it is a way of projecting the present into the future, to defer, but still forge the bonds. The point is for your d to know who you are, what you stand for, all that stuff. Normally we do that day by day as we raise the kids, but that is not the only way. You can do it by writing in real time (not from memory) about you, and her, and your life. When she is of appropriate age she will read these things, and it will take her back, so she can fill in the holes to who she is, by knowing who you are too. Like this stuff here on MB, print it all out, save it, and someday when she is of marrying age it might be important to her to understand what happend to her mom and dad. You can also write about you, and how desolate and lost you feel, and she will know how much she is loved. You can also write about your struggle to recover, make a new life, and she will learn how you never give up, and how you approach life with hope, not anger. Along the way by what and how you write she will learn more in depth about the human being her dad is...and she will read about herself, through her dad's eyes, and you will teach her things. <p>The future is always unwritten es, this is a tradjedy, but it is also an opportunity. You have a chance to interract in ways with your D, and in depths you may never have otherwise. There is no one "right" way to live, there is only opportunity. You will recover, humans are remarkable that way, but along with that ability comes the capacity to self-destruct, anger is the key, give it up, make the best, do not plot, and throw pity parties (one to a customer only). You can and will meet another woman and probably be a father to others, and maybe these half-siblings too will enrich your D life in the decades to come. Lastly, this disaster in your life has (as it does for us all) forced you to examine everything you thought you understood, if you embrace that, and do a good job of restructuring your life the way you think es should be, that is a good thing too, a very good thing. The best thing you can do for your D is rise to the occassion, meet the challenge headon, and by your very life, be a great role model, and tremendous influence on your daughter's life. Good luck.

sad_n_lonely -- You had me crying when I read you last reply. . .Of course I have been doing a lot of crying on my own too.<p>I do have a question for you though. You said to write what I am doing and going through in real time. . . . Do I actually write about the anger and depression I feel over what my SBXW hs done? Do I cecnsor what I write? or do I just let everthing fly?<p>Thank You again for taking the time to try and help me with all of this. I truly appreciate it.

The truth es, always the truth, do not censor anything if you want her to know who you are. If you live with someone they eventually get to know you pretty well, the danger when we start editing is that we reveal a caricature, not the real us, the risk is some of what is the real us is not very pleasant, and we fear one may think less of us....is not for me to say what anyone should do, and we all have a few secrets, and perhaps things that were aberations that we would just as soon no one knows, but each thing we censor reveals that much less about us...ya know. I would write in real time, day to day, week to week, so she can fill in the holes created by you not being in the home day to day. And not just stuff about missing her, but the real deal. How the day went, how your job is, your hope and dreams, how it is when you meet someone else...now of course she will not read this till age appropriate (much of it when she is an adult, or marriage age, or becoming a parent etc.) and you can write maybe some seperate letters just about you and her, and things you have done together so she can reminise about it. I think you should correspond and such too of course...The purpose of the journal is to make up for you not being there everyday of her life, to fill that hole, that is a seperate goal from just having a relationship. It will also be good for you, help you feel connected knowing you can reach back into the past when the time comes and have a chance to forge those bondsm you are now going to be denied, those bonds of just living together everyday. But what I am saying is you can still raise your child, it is just going to be different, and in some ways more of a challenge. This isn't easy either, writing is hard work. Occassionally you read somewhere a story about someone who kept a journal while raising kids, or even grandkids, and it is often very interesting, and kinda cool. I tried for awhile, writing after my first born came and such, but was hard to keep up, but then again, we never actually seperated, you have a different motivation now. Who knows maybe 20 years from now your words would somehow become known, inspiring, books written, screenplays, this happens you know.....what I am trying to do es is give you what you need now to go on now.......hope, God moves in mysterious ways, give this to him, and just do the work, be the best es you can be, and things will work out, they usually do.

((Empty Shell))<p>I briefly walked down the road you are now on and know that it truly sucks. I don't know what to say but YOU HAVE TO GET A LAWYER. <p>Even if your wife would of signed an agreement with you that night it would not of been admisable in court, atleast not in my state of Kansas.<p>Since this was your first hearing, I presume it was only for "Temporary Orders", is that correct? Just so you know my Child Support was almost cut in half when we had our final permanent orders hearing.<p>There is hope and there is a lot that you need to do. Mainly you need to get a lawyer.<p>I'd love to share more with you about how I went about things, where I messed up, where I did good, and got Joint Physical/Legal Custody.<p>If you'd like to chat e-mail me at bill@salinaplaningmill.com - I'm only here from 8-5 cst.