I am still struggling with feeling discarded. My STBXH left almost 2 years ago, and we are in the court phase of the divorce. I have not seemed to be able to make any progress with feeling unloved and discarded. I have made progress in not trying to look out for my H and insisting on a fair settlement for our situation. However, when I do this, my H tells me that this just verifies that he has done the right thing leaving me and that he should have left years ago - that he has not loved me for a long time. After you have been told this so many times, you start believing maybe there is some truth to it - maybe I am just not lovable. I can't seem to get beyond this. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And the wierd part is that after all the things he has done over the past 2 years, I don't respect him very much and I do not admire him. I would not choose him again if I had that choice today.<p>But I can't understand how someone that professes to love you can become so cold in such a short period of time. I did try to keep the marriage together even after he left and pleaded for marriage counceling, but he was not interested. The only thing I can conclude is that he really has not loved me for a long time, and he was not telling the truth when he said he did over the past few years.<p>My H and I have very little contact other than court. He has called a few times to yell at me about information my lawyer needs from him. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
It seems like by now I should have at least made some progress getting over him. We have been together more than 1/2 my life - maybe that is hindering me- so much of my personality has been formed with him in the picture. <p>Lisa<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Lisa ]</p>

Lisa, I'm not very familiar with the details of your situation, but I have had to deal with some similar difficulties. My wife left me without warning, discussion, or explanation in the summer of 2000 and cut off all contact with me. She filed for divorce soon after. The ruthlessness and dishonesty of her subsequent actions astonished me.<p>So perhaps I can address some of your specific issues.<p>You say you are "struggling with feeling discarded" and that you "have not seemed to be able to make any progress with feeling unloved and discarded". What kind of progress are you expecting, I wonder? You have been discarded, and you are being treated hatefully. So shouldn't you feel that way? Your feelings are a natural response to the reality you live in, it seems to me.<p>Some feelings just have to be accepted and endured. That's not as bad as it sounds, though. I have learned that I can feel happiness while still experiencing tremendous emotional pain. Accepting your pain does not mean that you are dooming yourself to a life of misery.<p>It is a matter of recognizing that your pain and your loss does not define you.<p>You say that your husband tells you he has not loved you for a long time, and "after you have been told this so many times, you start believing maybe there is some truth to it - maybe I am just not lovable." There are two problems here.<p>First and most important, even if it were true that your husband had not loved you for a long time, even if it were true that he never had loved you, that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you are lovable. It is not healthy to confuse the one with the other. You are lovable, period. Even if no one else loved you, God would still love you, and frankly I think God's love is the most significant love we can know.<p>But I also think it's highly unlikely that your husband speaks truth when he tells you that he has not loved you for a long time. Just as when he tries to justify his own actions on the basis of your standing up for yourself, what he is really demonstrating is that he has a need to justify his actions to himself.<p>He chose to leave you. Why? Do you really think he knows? The vast majority of spouses who leave do so in a state of great confusion. But as soon as they have accomplished their desertion and start to recognize what they have done, they are caught in a new bind: their actions have to some degree violated their values or beliefs, and so they are propelled from a state of "simple" (albeit distressing) confusion to a state of dissonance. Dissonance is a state of intolerable internal conflict, and its "resolution" usually involves revising the facts to try to bring one's actions into conformance with one's values. In other words, the result is self-delusion.<p>(Incidentally, an affair will also tend to induce dissonance, so in such cases the associated dynamics may precede the actual desertion.)<p>This process can occur with incredible rapidity. Less than a week went by from when my wife was telling me repeatedly that she loved me and that she was proud of me to when she had decided that she could never speak to me again. Her fabrications and allegations have continued to grow in outrageousness since then to a mindboggling degree, which indicates to me that she has still not succeeded in resolving her dissonance. She still feels guilty about her desertion, and I imagine she will continue to do so until I am enough of a monster in her mind that she can feel right about having left me. Trouble is, she didn't really leave me because I treated her badly. (I treated her like a princess.) But since she can't admit that to herself, she must keep building the monster instead.<p>This explains "how someone that professes to love you can become so cold in such a short period of time." It is not about you at all. You have ceased to exist in your husband's mind. You have been replaced with a doppelganger, a projection of his own psyche that is worthy of his hatred, because he cannot possibly believe that he is evil enough to have treated anyone he loved in the manner that he treated you. (And even there his thinking is skewed, because in all likelihood it is fear that drove him, rather than evil. But he can't see that, because it was his inability to acknowledge and face that fear in the first place that got him into all this trouble. At least, I believe that's what happened with my wife.)<p>Bottom line, there is something you can conclude other than that "he really has not loved me for a long time, and he was not telling the truth when he said he did over the past few years."<p>As far as "getting over him" goes...<p>I was married for nearly 12 years when my wife left me, and that was long enough for my psychotherapist to conclude a year later that literally anything and everything was likely to be a trigger for post-traumatic shock. Every part of my life was in some way connected with my wife, and the associations are everywere. It's now been a year-and-a-half since she left me, and the triggers and the pain are still as fresh today as they were three months after she left. Maybe some day they will diminish or go away. Or maybe not. It's out of my control, I figure, so I just live with it.<p>The pain cannot touch my knowledge of who I am. It is from that still-intact core that I find the courage to do what I need to do. I am loved, even though I am also hated. I am steadfast, despite the price I pay for my integrity. I am proud of myself, for I have stood the test. I am happy with who I am, even though the threat of losing everything still hangs over my head.<p>It is enough.

Amen, brother, preach it!!!<p>Once again, Gnome de Plume has hit the nail on the head and given a near-perfect answer.<p>I can relate to you 100%, Lisa. I'm in the same timeframe as you. However, don't confuse his FOG with the truth. And don't let him manipulate you into thinking that what he is saying to you is truth.<p>It's not. It's only his screwed up version of the events.<p>One thing that worked for me was to just stop caring. Stop caring ABOUT him; stop caring about what he SAYS; stop caring. How do you do that? You just STOP CARING. It's hard, but you just gotta do it. <p>Start caring about yourself. Take his statements and rip them apart in your head (or even symbolically by writing them down, and ripping them up.) When he says that "your insisting on a fair settlement just reinforces his negative ideas about you", YOU have to say (in your head) "then he has a skewed vision of me because I am being fair." That's the bottom line. You are fair; and he is a liar and manipulator.<p>It's awefully hard to think that about someone you once loved so deeply, but you said it yourself...you don't respect him and you are beginning to see him for what he is. Be proud of yourself for seeing that...many people don't.<p>You need to work on your self-esteem. Are you in counseling or can you join some sort of group counseling-type session? I think it would really help.<p>Here's the positive things I learned about you throught your post:<p>* You are fair and want to be fair to others.
* You are concerned about others.
* You are a person who deeply feels things.
* You've made some progress in looking out for yourself.
* You learn from negative experiences.
* You tried to save your marriage.
* You wanted to seek professional help for your marital problems, instead of just bagging it all.
* You have high expectations for yourself.
* You see things for what they are.
* You take action.
* You are there for your kids.<p>Dwell on these things. Look for the positive things about Lisa. They are there. You ARE lovable and you know that. Search the web or your local library for books on self-esteem.<p>The truth is he did a sh*tty thing and discarded a beautiful woman for his own selfishness. Don't allow yourself to look at it any other way. Yes, you may have contributed to some of the problems in the marriage. BUT you didn't bail out; you didn't start an affair; you didn't lie and manipulate the truth to get your way.<p>Start this year -- 2002 -- thinking of only you, Lisa. Selfish? No. You've given and given and he took and took. Focus on you and be the best you you can be! After that many years of marriage, you need to re-define yourself. There is a wonderful girl inside, Lisa....allow her to come out and play again!<p>Aloha and keep the faith!
Ms.O

I have nothing to add to the eloquence of GnomeDePlume's post. That was amazing! And very very true. It helped me immensely while dealing with some of the very same things you all are dealing with. Thank you!!<p>WhoamInow

((((Lisa)))))<p>I'm very sorry that you're in your situation.
As you can see from my bio, I too have/are in your situation.<p>GnomeDePlume and Ms O make very, very good points. This post has even helped me. <p>Yes, I heard all the same things your stbx has said to you. Its the fog. Its soooo sad that they take NO responsibility for their actions... That is what the fog/midlife crisis will do to them. They lay everything on us.<p>My advice to him, is to refer him straight back to your lawyer. If he is yelling at you just tell him that you would be more than happy to discuss things... but not if hes yelling.
I guess you need to set up boundaries to protect YOURSELF.<p>Here are some other websites that maybe helpful.
www.divorcebusting.com
http://www.affairs-help.com
http://www.rejoiceministries.org
http://www.restoreministries.net
http://www.infidelity.com
http://www.guideposts.org<p>I'm not saying that any or all of these sites will be helpful to you....just a recommendation.<p>Take good care of Lisa.... shes a wonderful women and has many fine qualities. <p>Peace be with you,
s<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: scoick ]</p>

Intellectually I know that my STBXH is speaking out of guilt and rationalization, but emotionally....This is the person that I trusted more than any other. I can understand now how people have long term trust issues after going through all this cr#*p! I can't see myself ever trusting anyone on that level again.<p>But I so much appreciate the words of wisdom. I think we all need to hear that we are valued every once in awhile. And I think that once all this court stuff is over that that will help. I don't know how I feel about never seeing him again. Our children are almost grown, so we do not have to get together to discuss or exchange children. So I do not see any reason for us to have contact. I actually do better when I do not talk to him, but on another level this makes me incredabily sad. It is hard to stop caring about someone that you promised God you would care about the rest of your life. But he has not seemed to have any trouble with this - Is that what helps cause our pain? If I could just think of something horrible that I have done other than just becoming familar and ordinary. It is mystifying when someone's attitude changes radically and there is no rational reason why. Because if you can't figure out the reason, couldn't it happen again? Maybe that is the root of my fear and sadness. So I just need to follow your advice and break this habit! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I keep thinking of the prayer about having the wisdom to know the difference between things I can and cannot change.<p>But thanks again, this post has made me feel better. I guess I just needed a little TLC [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless,
Lisa

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lisa:
It is hard to stop caring about someone that you promised God you would care about the rest of your life. But he has not seemed to have any trouble with this - Is that what helps cause our pain? If I could just think of something horrible that I have done other than just becoming familar and ordinary. It is mystifying when someone's attitude changes radically and there is no rational reason why. Because if you can't figure out the reason, couldn't it happen again? Maybe that is the root of my fear and sadness.<hr></blockquote><p>Lisa, what you're talking about there is control. You want to know what you can do to fix the situation, or to prevent it from happening to you again, because if you can control it you don't have to be afraid of it.<p>That desire for control not only serves to keep you from facing your fear, it also tears down your self-esteem. Because if you can control something, you are responsible for it. You blame yourself. And so if you discover that nothing you do succeeds in "winning" your spouse's love you start to think that maybe you are unlovable.<p>Believe me, I know this path. I struggled with depression for years because I thought I was a failure as a husband. I blamed myself for the problems in my marriage, despite the fact that I was a d***ed good husband. Why did I do that? Because subconsciously, it was preferable to facing the fearful reality that those to whom you open your heart can betray you.<p>I'm lucky, in some ways. Because I was so consistently faithful and honest and patient and supportive and kind, I found it impossible to keep blaming myself once my wife's allegations reached a certain level of absurdity. I had tried everything I could think of (and believe me, I gave it a lot of thought) to show my wife that I loved her, and I never gave her a reason to doubt my trustworthiness; and so when she claimed that there was no basis for love and trust in our relationship I knew that the real problem was her own inability to trust and her own inability to accept love. Furthermore, I could no longer deny the possibility of betrayal once it had already occurred. (Desertion, to my mind, is no less a betrayal than an affair. "Infidelity" really just means faithlessness.)<p>What doubts might I still have if I had treated her badly?<p>But I had not earned her betrayal, and thus my fears were exposed despite the blinders I had worn for so long against them. The world was not what I thought it was. It was a much less secure place. As you said, "I can understand now how people have long term trust issues after going through all this cr#*p! I can't see myself ever trusting anyone on that level again."<p>But, to some extent, trust is a choice. You can choose to step out on the ice despite your fear that it might crack beneath you.<p>And there is one other thing...<p>As long as I hang onto my own integrity, as long as I continue to act in a manner worthy of trust, I can still believe that faithfulness is possible. If I can refuse to be broken, I know that others too can make that choice.<p>That is another reason why the best thing you can do for yourself right now is to strengthen yourself, Lisa. Only by having compassion on yourself can you truly have compassion on others - even perhaps on your husband. And only by learning to believe in yourself can you learn again to believe in others.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lisa:
<strong>Because if you can't figure out the reason, couldn't it happen again? Maybe that is the root of my fear and sadness. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey Lisa,<p>I can totally relate to this question. I am STILL struggling with trying to understand. And I think, to some degree, that it IS important to learn what role you had in all this. Just don't kill yourself by trying to take responsibility for his actions.<p>What I finally did was ask myself "If I knew then, what I know now, and could magically go back to the beginning of my marriage, what exactly would I do differenlty."<p>I came up with a few answers. That really helped. I now had a "handle" on some things that I could change for the next time around. And I've been working on them this last year. <p>I also came up with the fact that even if I wasn't the perfect wife, the things that were "wrong" in our marriage, COULD have been fixed and I was more than willing to do that. <p>HE WASN'T. HE BAILED. HE FLAKED OUT. HE CHOOSE THE "EASY" WAY OUT....no work, no responsiblity, no nothing. <p>Just remember that. You didn't. No, you weren't perfect. Yes, you were familiar (NEVER ordinary). So what....so was he. THAT doesn't break up a marriage...at least for emotionally mature adults. Your kids are familiar...your parents are familiar....do you just get rid of them? Of course not.<p>Once you answer the question "What could I have done differently?" you now have more "Lisa" work to do. Learn from your mistakes. Resolve to not do those things the same old way again. And if you list is short...don't keep looking for more. Accept that YOU didn't [censored] up!! HE DID! Gnome de Plume is right on....you didn't "earn his betrayal" nor did you deserve it.<p>Some people just do stupid things. That you love him or choose him doesn't mean YOU are stupid. It means that you loved someone who did a stupid thing. Period.<p>It's not a reflection of you.<p>Aloha and keep the faith.
Ms.O<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Ms.O ]</p>

Lisa,<p>I think he is in a MLC. I have a couple of friends who's husband were or are now in an MLC also. One friend told me she calls it her husband's crazy days. He totally was a different man during those days. He finally came out of his MLC, but not without doing a lot of hurt in the mean time...<p>I read on your post to me that he won't agree to child support. More than likely the court will award you back payment for all that child support and he will regret this alot. <p>I don't know about your state but in the state of Texas they don't put up with up. I know a guy who did side jobs, all cash jobs, the judge didn't buy that he couldn't get a job and forced him to pay a huge amount of back child support or go to jail. He had 10 days to come up with the money, miracously he came up with...<p>I think it is great you are packing is stuff up. You will feel good getting it all in containers. <p>You are worth so much more than what this guy can give you. There will be someone who comes in your life some day and you will be so blessed by his love. Hang in there girl!<p>Well, take care girl. BTW, I really like your new name. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA

P.S. My STBXH was in MAJOR MLC....and still is to some extent. As well, he was a sober alcoholic for 16+ years who decide to start drinking again because he had a blow up with his Mom. The destruction of our marriage was in the fallout.<p>The more I think of those two facts combined, the more I realize there wasn't really ANYTHING I did to cause him to bail. He did it all. I still feel alot of sorrow and pity for what he did to his life (and mine), but I can't change that.<p>Aloha,
Ms.O

GnomeDePlume,
I really appreciate your point of view. I have been trying to figure out why my STBXH fell out of love with me after so many years. I never thought of it as control, but I have been taking responsibility. That has been a pattern in our marriage. I was often the "mature one" and the "responsible one". And I did not think of it as a way to avoid my fear. But your thoughts make sense. <p>Our situations may be somewhat simular. When my H started having a midlife crisis, I did everything I could think of to show him how much I cared about him and valued him. I let him know that I was willing to work on any problems we may have. He knew he could always trust my faithfulness and committment. But instead of appreciating these qualities, he actually ridiculed me and my "prudish, old fashioned" values. So I DO feel that while I am not perfect, I did give all that I have in love and good faith. And that is what is frightening - it was not good enough. I will just try to remember what you have said; that maybe this has nothing to do with me in a way, that he chose this path and it is his responsibility. And your thoughts about trust make sense too. If you never take a chance, you never stretch yourself.<p>Ms.O,
I like your idea about "if I could go back and change things - what would I change." Because, you know, about the only thing I would change is to wait until we were a little older to get married. I was definiately more ready than he was (even though he would deny this) and we were young. But he made that choice too, didn't he? I am just going to have to quit letting him manipulate my feelings. I do still feel quilty that I could not keep an intact family for our kids (goes back to that control thing again, doesn't it, GnomeDePlume [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ) and my H uses that sooo effectively. I'm sure you have heard it too - "if you had only done this,maybe I would have thought about coming back". The stinker!!!<p>Anna2000,
You are so right, he is in a MLC. And instead of looking into himself, and what he would like to do to improve this last 1/2 of his life, he has blamed his family for his unhappiness. He thinks that he has a "soul mate" out there, and if he can just find her, marriage should be easy and not ever hard work. He also has become a heavy drinker, and I know that does not help the situation. I just keep thinking that sooner or later that he will come to regret what he has thrown away - do you know what I mean? But I am coming to realize that this may never happen. Maybe he is happier without me, and I was not an asset to his life. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] This kind of socks me in the heart. That is hard to accept when you start dating someone at 16 years old - I don't know where he ends and I start personalitywise, because they were formed together more or less.<p>God bless you guys. I need to print this advice out and keep reading it over and over [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Lisa