Hey guys, see if you can help me out with this one. I'm not finding specific info. to these problems when I do web searches.<p>I have sole custody of my daughters, ages 18 and 12 (Ex has "liberal visitation"). Although oldest is 18--legal adulthood--she has not graduated yet (will this spring, hopefully!).<p>My Ex remarried, moved 2,000 miles away for two years, and returned here a year ago. I recently learned that he has been trying to manipulate 18 yr. old into moving in with them. I believe this is merely so he won't have to pay child support anymore. Although I'm speculating, I think he's also hoping to lure 12 yr. old there too (and may be carefully attempting that already) if big sister leaves, and the hope is to not only save those support payments but to collect support from me.<p>18 yr. old is very sweet and very gullible. This has been confusing and incredibly upsetting to her; she just wants to please everyone. Now one would think perhaps the best way of handling this is to just tell her to choose since she's over 18. However, I don't want problems to jeopardize her graduation. What also concerns me is HOW they are manipulating. They tell her she will have total freedom and no responsibility, excellent lures for a teenager technically of-age but still on the brink of maturity. <p>They have gone to her workplace and told her managers it was a family emergency to extend her breaks and talk to her. And they've told her not to tell me OR her grandmother (HIS mother!) what's going on.<p>This has been tearing her up. She finally broke down and told me all this past weekend, and that her dad had ordered her to have her bags packed and while H and I were out NYE, the move would be effected. She told me she doesn't WANT to move in with them, shared some all-is-not-perfect-in-paradise stories about what happens over there, but she doesn't want to displease her father either. She confided in little sister that she'd decided she wasn't going but didn't know what to do. 12 yr. old (mature for her age) told her she thought that was a wise choice and she really should tell ME what's going on, that this is too much for them to handle alone.<p>The girls spent NYE with their grandmother and other family. Ex came by for awhile, spoke to her away from everyone else, and she told him she didn't want to live with him. Said he looked kinda scary and asked her if she was sure. She said yes. He then simply walked away, whispered to his W...who then went to her and said snippily "looks like SOMEone let the cat out of the bag." And with that they left!<p>I am SO angry that they would place these children in such a spot. Telling them both to lie, and all this being so obviously about money and NOT about their well-being.<p>Neither of the girls wanted to see him for visitation this weekend. 12 yr old was more "whatever I thought best 'cause dad is acting strange," and 18 yr old adamantly refused to go. I had a front door confrontation with him, told him the girls didn't want to see him this weekend and any discussion about it could be kept to e-mail. "Oh really. Hmm. THEY don't want to come. I see. And why is that?" I told him to just think about what he's been doing recently. He said that he hasn't been doing anything (of course), what was I talking about? I said how about manipulating 18 yr old to move in with him and comments like "letting the cat out of the bag." Nope, didn't happen. I told him to can the manipulations, I'm their sole custodian so talk to ME.<p>12 yr old was in her room when this occurred, but 18 yr old was sitting on the couch with her boyfriend, and they heard all. "mom, he was lying! is he trying to drive me crazy??" Sigh. I said honey, I guess he's lying to cover up other lies. He apparently wanted you out of here before I realized what was happening, and hoped for another crack at you with visitation this weekend. I spoiled his plans. We'll get this straightened out, promise. (sure hope I can!)<p>H continues to pay support for both girls, so I guess he's not questioning support continuing until oldest graduates. I am going to fill out and file the forms to initiate action to collect back support--he's never paid the entire amount monthly (says he can't in blatant disregard of the court order and also hasn't tried to get it reduced by proper procedures either) and skipped some payments entirely. Well, enough is enough. I plodded along ignoring his deficiencies and just concentrated on providing for the girls with or without his help. But these manipulations have pushed me past the point of caring a whit about his problems. <p>That got lengthy, sorry. My questions are:<p>1. Has anyone been through the possible gray area of visitation with an 18 yr old who has yet to graduate? Particularly when emotional health is being tampered with.<p>2. Has anyone been able to extend support through college years? Wouldn't matter to me if the money was paid directly to my D. This issue was not addressed in our divorce decree.<p>3. Do you think I should write Ex a certified letter informing him that WHEN the manipulations stop, visitation will be allowable again?<p>I'm having to consider all this on a shoestring. No money for a retainer.<p>Thanks!

Dear Laura,<p>I understand where you are coming from to a degree. I have a 17 year old and a 19 year old. My divorce is not final yet though.<p>Yes, from what I understand child support continues until the child is 18 or graduates from high school. My 17 year old son will turn 18 in January, but I have been told that child support will continue until he graduates in May. He is all messed up from his Dad's abandonment of over a year, and may not even graduate. I am not sure, but I am assuming that if it takes some additional time to graduate, that the child support will also continue. Of course this is kind of irrelevant for me, because my SYBXH has refused to pay any support or back support so far - so we are going the court route now.<p>I do not think that child support can be mandated for the time in college from what I have been told. I do know that many parents do continue to pay college tuition instead of support, but they do it of their own free will. At least that is the law in Tennessee.<p>Concerning the manipulation - does this sound familar? My 19 year old daughter also wants to please everyone. She will tell me what she wishes, but then she will not tell this to her Dad. We finally had a talk about the fact that she is an adult now, and their relationship should be more equal now. She must tell her Dad how she feels and that she will not tolerate being manipulated. People treat you like you condition them to treat you. In our case, my STBXH has totally ignored both the children for almost a year while he ran around with another woman and her children. When I told him that they felt abandoned, his response was "that's unfortunate, but that he can't live by anyone else's time frame". It was not convenient to deal with them now. They would just have to wait. It did not matter that their crisis was now. Well now we are in court, so his lack of contact looks bad. So he has been calling. But my daughter is not ready to deal with him yet(a guess it isn't her time frame now [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) However, she has not been able to tell him this. She finally did this yesterday. It was very hard for her. But I hope it will make her feel better as time goes by. Now, her Dad knows that he can't just ignore her, and then when it is convenient with him, that she will jump when he calls. Just like the info here says that we must establish boundaries, I think as they become adults, so must our children. Now my D is relating to her Dad more on her own terms. This way she feels that she has some control of her life. And so many times in divorce, the kids really feel like they have lost all control of what is happening around them.<p>Concerning visitation, in Tennessee by the time the children are 12 (I think), they have the most say in their visitation schedule. My 17 year old son refuses to see his Dad at all. He had to tell the court why, but his wishes have been granted for far. Of course, my H tries to manipulate the situation by telling them that he has college money, Christmas or Birthday presents for them - but they cannot have them unless they will see him. So far, they have chosen to forgo the gifts.<p>It sounds like your kids have good heads on their shoulders, and they understand the dynamics of what is going on. It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing. You are treating them like their wishes are important, teaching them to let their Dad know what is acceptable and unacceptable behavoir on his part, and running interference when it is neccessary to meet their needs.<p>I feel for you. It was soo hard listening to my Daughter, in tears, telling her Dad that she just could not see him right now. She is frightened that he will just abandon her again. But she knows that he must treat her with more respect. And seeing him on her terms is the only way she can establish this right now.<p>It sounds like your girls are people to be proud of. I think all this stuff is harder on older kids than it is the younger ones in many ways. But at least we can listen to their wishes and try to make sure they are carried out if they are in their best interests. And it seems to me that you are doing that. <p>God Bless,
Lisa [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

(((((((((((Laura)))))))))))))))<p>This must be very hard on you. Their father is really doing a number on your oldest one, and I can understand how you are feeling helpless from his munipulations. So sad! <p>I don't remember what state you are in but Texas law states this...CHILD SUPPORT <p> CHILD SUPPORT: The duty of a parent to support his or her child exists until the child reaches the age of 18 or graduates from high school, whichever occurs later or until the child is emancipated through marriage, removal of disabilities by court order, or other operation of law; or until the death of the child; 154.002 <p>I think it is pretty standard for most states.<p>You can have some comfort in knowing this; even if your daughter agreed to stay with him, he would still have to take you to court and win...I know this is what he is probably shooting for but by the time he gets a lawyer, gets a court date and goes to court more than likely your older daughter will graduate. Until that time, even if daughter lives with him, he is obligated to pay you child support.<p>Also, regarding the certified letter. I would say DON'T send it. Lawyers say never put anything in writing with out consulting with a lawyer first. The things you put in writing and sign could hurt you in court. He could turn your words around, have it in writing that you aren't allowing visitation per a court order and your written words could back fire on you.<p>Laura, you are doing a good job raising your children. Your older daughter saw that she couldn't handle this and came to you, that shows you have done a very good job, I am sure you told her how very proud you are of her for coming to you and seeing through his munipulation.<p>Your daughter picked structure over non structure. He was giving her the freedom he thought she wanted but he really missed the point, it really showed her who truly loves her and cares. Most children need and want boundaries, they know this means you love them. Just know you are doing a very good job!<p>Now that she saw the look on his face after he didn't get his way, I don't think she'll even consider moving in with him again. If she does happen to consider it, I think I would tell her to tell him she will consider it after she is 18. This way if he is sincere about it and not wanting money, the invitation will still be there.<p>As for your 12 year old. Sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders too, but don't be surprised if he tries it next on her. Although I think it'll back fire.<p>I think I would talk to both girls and tell them to put the blame on you to help them out of their father munipulating them when they visit. Tell them to tell their father this, "Mom has custody and we love visiting you but if you want to talk about custody we are staying out of this part of it because we love you both. Please discuss this with mom." They can learn to set there boundaries with him, eventually he'll quit if they repeat the same thing over and over. They could even write him a letter and send it to him. It could break the ice as far as visitations go in the future...<p>Take care and try not to let his munipulations come into your home by upsetting you and the children. Put the JERK on ignore. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA<p>[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

some great advice posted here - I agree - I think the girls needed to see what was happening. THere just comes a point when protecting our children from the anger isn't in their best interests.<p>I believe I'm seing that in my children too.<p>Hang in there Laura!<p>Blessings,<p>Jan

You southerners have it easy.<p>Its 22 years old, including college education in Massachusetts. . . .<p>You know, I hate manipulators. . . . <p>especially with kids . . . however, i also believe that kids are not possessions, and should shared as long as the parents can agree. But with selfish people, that is usually too much to ask. . . <p>wiftty

Hey Laura! No advice......just wanted to say HI....You're one of the "good guys"!!!!!....your girls are lucky to have a mom like you.....keep on keepin on!!!<p>Love,
Xman

Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate your help.<p>Lisa--I'm sure D is affected by dad's 2-year abandonment, just like your son. Her grades have suffered but she manages to keep her head above water. I really do have concerns about what might happen if she moved over there with graduation only one semester away! I guess some people think they can "buy" affection, huh.<p>My 12 yr old is on the dance team at school. I asked her why she didn't invite dad to the games to see her dance...just wanted her to know that it was certainly okay with me...and she shrugged and said he wouldn't come anyway so why invite him. Actually, she's right. Isn't that sad? But she was only 6 when we divorced, my H has been the consistent male figure in her little life. And she's a determined kid, her grades are excellent. I think divorce really does affect teens harder.<p>Anna--we're in Kentucky. Our statutes reads the same as in Texas. Do you think D is under the same visitation obligation since Ex continues child support...because she's 18 but hasn't graduated yet? He doesn't really have funds to fight me on this in court, but if the bee in his bonnet is big enough, he MIGHT find the means.<p>Jan--just recently I've been unveiling more information for the girls about Ex. Not in a vindictive way, however. Perhaps my silence is what got us where we are now--his near success in manipulating D. She had her bags packed! This is very, very difficult. I've always encouraged them to love him and now I'll continue to do that but add to it "in spite of his misguidedness?" I never thought it was appropriate to pull the girls into the middle of ANY of our decisions. And yet he does it. Well, actually, now he's trying to bypass me altogether.<p>wiffty--yes, I know you hate manipulators and understand where you're coming from. I recently read some definitions of parental alienation and was shocked to realize that's what my Ex is attempting to do. Doesn't seem to matter that the kids are the ones being affected by these games.<p>Hiya, Xman--thanks. Hope things are going well with you.

just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I have a 17 year old who makes her own descision on whether to go and visit with her father or not. I know once they reach the age of 13 they can decide where they want to live. If your daughter is 18 you don't have to make her go and visit and there is nothing he can do. I know here in Texas (I checked this out with the attorney general) the ex can be made to pay half of the college tuition. Just my 2 cents.