I came across this article today. I am definitely going to get this book mentioned in this article when it comes out. This is a positive light on divorce.....something not seen very often but definitely needed by those of us going through it!<p> <p>Kathy

ummmm, where is it? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Oops! Let's see if it works this time.......<p>Kathy<p>MSNBC Homepage

Personally I think it is a bunch of crap & will simply give more people filing more ammunition.<p>"See? It doesn't affect the kids as much as was thought."<p>But kids still want their parents to stay married.

I saw the article too, and I agree with Chris. <p>Sure, kids are resiliant. They bounce back and cope with what's thrown at them. I grew up with a couple of great people that overcame horrible childhood experiences and now have good lives. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to put kids through hell just because they can take it.<p>That'd be a bit like saying "I want to raise my kids in a poverty-stricken war zone. They'll probably turn out ok."

My ex H would love this article. It would validate his decisions for him and he would flaunt it as proof that breaking up the family and abandoning your wife isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm not questioning the validity of the study, just commenting that my ex doesn't need any more validation. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Krista

Well folks. I have to lean the other way. Not all the way just kind of leaning w/ the breeze.<p>What I had wasn't a marriage, it was room-mates. What I recieved was NO compassion, No love, No help, No understanding, No anything..<p>Now that I am divorced My daughter is doing much better in school, I don't agrue w/ my XW as I don't feel like I have to protech myself. <p>When I asked my daughter how she likes it were she is (Living w/ mommy) she says its great. no more argueing. <p>Things are good for both of us. And here it is. (Wait for it...)<p>I have to agree with her that 1-2 years after the D I will be back on my feet.. <p>Now let the lightning fly.. <p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Tex.

I see this article much differently than most of you. I didn't file for divorce, I didn't want the divorce but my xh did. Nothing I could do about that. To me, the studies that were done show me that there is hope that my children will be alright. It seems every time I read something it is always negative about the children and saying that they are going to have problems, etc. It is really good to see that there is some hope, some positive from this entire ordeal.<p>Kathy

This study is not the only one, and the psychology is becoming pretty clear, divorce is not what is bad for kids, anymore than marriage is good for kids...what is good for kids is being loved and parented effectively, not only by parents, but also by the "village". Another study followed kids success in school, and as expected kids of divorce did not do well, but what was interesting was too large of a percentage of kids in intact homes also did not do well. To make a long story short (and yes the researchers did their homework very well), the causative factor ahd nothing to do with divorce, it had to do with effective parenting. They found that divorce parents who were stable people, and worked together to effectively parent had kids who did just as well as kids from intact homes who had effective parenting. Likewise kids who did not do as well, was ineffective parenting, whether home was divorced or intact..... <p>The issue with divorce is the acrimony, and absenteeism of the parents. If joint custody is in place, and embraced by the parents (and adjusted for the kids needs), the kids will do just fine. If one parent tashes the other, or refuses to set aside personal issues to parent effectively, then the kdis suffer. The thing is the kids were gonna suffer no matter what, cause the parents could not cooperate as marital partners, and forcing themselves to stay together solves nothing, and hurts the kids.<p>In my case, thinker and I have had difficulties our entire 24 year marriage, and we stayed together primarily for the children (4). We did our jobs, took care of business, loved our kids, and were there for them...BUT our personal disharmony carried over to them, they did not escape it. One has serious anger issues, the others are very very leary of relationships, and no one intends to ever get married (not that that is so bad for now, they are 16-23). And there are other interpersonal issues that is going to make marriage difficult for them, until they heal themselves. I often wonder if thinker and I had amicably split up long ago, whether we could have spared them this, of course will never know.<p>The usual response is but yeah, the best is 2 parents madly in love, living life to the fullest...not divorce....well DUH, of course, but that does not seem to be how life works...ya know? There are lots of issues, many irreconcillable in the psychologies of people, when they try the most intimate of relationships, marriage.....unfortuneately kids usually come along while this is being realized, and there we are, what do you do? Often times people will be much better friends, especially if both can take joy and satisfaction in their children, and do not have the stress of trying to make an intimacy work...all those emotional resources can be spent on being a good parent, instead of trying to make it through another day, trying to fit, trying to meet needs in a dysfunctional relationship, and visiting that upon their children. Where do you draw the line? I don't know, each decides for themselves, but I do know this, what kids need are parents who are happy, and well nurtured, not parents hanging on by a thread, wearing a happy face, for the kids.....whether married, or divorce.<p>As for ammunition, what's with you people anyways? It is just reasearch, it is either right or wrong, it is not a philosophy, sheesh. By that reasoning we should shoot every scientist all the way back to the guy who discovered fire, cause it means our comfort zone is challenged. All this research means is the argument that staying together for the kids, or you are destroying the family (usually meaning kids) is not true, and decisions should not be based on that. To me this is all obvious, and allways has been, our genes know nothing about marriage, so it is impossible for marital status to make any difference in the success of a human being...what has to make the difference is how the child is nurtured, and that is independent of marital status. Actually the success of a child is about 70% genetic anyways, and has nothing to do with nurturing at all (more science for you skeptics, who really should research this stuff yourselves, before making false assumptions, and acting on them). You gotta wonder how many people would leave dysfunctional marriages more quickly, to both their well-being, and their children, it we debunk the notion the kids are at risk. The stories are legion, and heartbreaking, for women especially, who stayed for the kids, only to ultimately not have done the kids any good at all (and maybe harm as well), and sacrificed themselves, for nothing.

I think it's a load of crap too... and in hindsight... well, sheesh... I did so many things wrong.<p>I've said this before: when I was in my late thirties (30's!!) my parents separated, and I swear, I might as well have been 8 years old. I wanted my mommy and daddy together!!<p>Yes, there is something to be said for TRYING to make it as gentle as possible for kids (no matter what the age) but the bottom line is that kids want their parents together, no matter what that article says.

She admitted that twice as many of the adult children of divorce had serious psychological problems, as she doesn't see a problem with that? An extra 12.5 out of 100 people, and that is no big deal? That is a HUGE number. Probably at least 75% of smokers don't die of lung cancer, but that doesn't mean smoking isn't dangerous. If smoking one type of cigarette caused cancer in 12.5% of smokers, and another type caused cancer in 25% of smokers, wouldn't that discrepancy be widely publicized? Would anyone with half a brain smoke the more dangerous cigarette?

it is not a perfect world nellie, the parents lives are important too, and not completely subservient to the children, if they do not want to be married what do they do? Life is like that, not perfect, and if you happen to be the kid who for whatever reason does less well in a divorce, but your parents are two people who are not going to do well together, then someone is gonna get hurt...we have no means to quantify to the nth degree who is gonna be hurt more, and even if we did I doubt humans are ever going to become an altruistic species, if they do, they will no longer be human....so tif the divorce the kid is just gonna have to work at that particular life issue.....just one of many s/he could be subject too. The point of the study is the vast majority of the time, divorce has little to do with the success of a child as a human being.<p>Further we have operated in total ignorance up till now, but as we keep understanding the psychology, and developing a dialog and the tools, we can heal those who need it, whether they were "injured" by divorce, or injured by a dysfunctional (but intact) marriage. The real solution is for people to only marry those they fit well, (by understanding themselves, and practicing radical honesty pre-maritally, neither of which we do much of now)...as well as some sort of ability filter for being a parent at all.....but since people mate and procreate like bunnies, is unlikely the problems of dysfunctional marriages and the affects on children is gonna go away anytime soon.<p>What this study does is releive the unfair (and inappropriate) pressure on people to stay in dysfunctional marriages cause it is so much better for the children....and lets them make marital decisions based more on the merits of the marriage, as it should be.<p>Sheryl, a question for you.<p>Did you want your parents to stay together for YOUR benefit, or theirs? And if yours, would you expect them to live their entire lives primarily the way you wanted them too?<p>Let's make it harder, let's say for sure you (as an adult child) would suffer some injury....saddnes, anxiety, depresson and that would obviously affect your life in a negative way....should your parents not do so solely cause you (as an adult, responsible for your own life, and reactions to external events) will be injured? In other words, what they want is of secondary importance to their adult child's needs?<p>Yes the bottom line is that children want their parents together....not for warm fuzzy reasons, but cause children are cold-blooded calculating individuals bent on their own survival (not my words, just the genetic truths, read any text), and they know their survival is best gauranteed by their biological parents.....it is also the reason why children try to eliminate their siblings, so they have all the parental resources. Children are amazingly selfish, there is no particular reason to do anything they want just cause they want it....if we did they would all be single children (siblings gone) and their parents would give then 100% of their attention....but I think we all know that is not the best way to raise a successul adult....so the argument we just blindly give our children what they want is ill-advised. It is quite possible that part of that group who does less well in divorce is children who are less adapatable, and more controlling, and do not take well to being denied both parents the way they want it.....this is all far more complex than people really understand, as is the consequences of intimacy and how it relates to the psychological fit of the individuals....<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>
Sheryl, a question for you.<p>Did you want your parents to stay together for YOUR benefit, or theirs? And if yours, would you expect them to live their entire lives primarily the way you wanted them too?<p>Let's make it harder, let's say for sure you (as an adult child) would suffer some injury....saddnes, anxiety, depresson and that would obviously affect your life in a negative way....should your parents not do so solely cause you (as an adult, responsible for your own life, and reactions to external events) will be injured? In other words, what they want is of secondary importance to their adult child's needs?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Okay, here goes: I wanted my parents together for many reasons. <p>Yes, for me in a way, I guess (I don't do well with change, although you wouldn't believe it with the self-imposed changes I've made over the last three years)... but... moreso for their well being (in my most humble "not really knowing since I no longer lived there" opinion)... <p>My mother is a difficult person to love (less so in the last ten years, but she was hell on wheels for a LOOONG time), and my dad seemed the ONLY person who could TRULY understand and love her. <p>My dad loves my mother and I didn't want his heart to break. To be honest, I wasn't too thrilled with my mother at that time, and thought for sure she initiated the whole thing. <p>I think it was for my dad, more than anything, that I wanted them to stay together.<p>Now, was it going to be uncomfortable for me? In a way, yes. We went through Christmas with them both there, but separated, and it was ICKY. <p>I OF COURSE want my parents to be happy and healthy. Not surprisingly, it was my mother's cancer diagnosis that brought them back together. Funny about that, doncha think? Who stood by her? My dad. Who cared for her, took her to the doctors, supported her? My dad. <p>Thank God she became a different person after that, and they have what I consider a good marriage now. They are not the typical couple - they take separate vacations sometimes and a different circle of friends (some shared too) and they do what works for them. So yes, I want them happy within their own terms.

Interesting thread....
but throw into this mix a satisfying marriage with 4 children, 2 of whom have learning difficulties and ADHD which does lead to increased stress. Marriage then breaks down due to amid life crisis with attendant adolescent behaviour...(drugs, hedonism, young thing, no responsibilities are part of new lifestyle) but WS needs children to justify the new and better life and uses them to punish BS for not allowing all this in the marriage itself.<p>Can the children fare well.....I think not. This behaviour is not conducive to marriage or parenting and theirin lies the problem. How could any children do well when one parent cannot curb the adolescent desires either married or divorced?<p>So I believe that parenting is the key.....and one parent can fully make it impossible for kids not to fare well.<p>Just my take from my own experience.

Interesting thread....
but throw into this mix a satisfying marriage with 4 children, 2 of whom have learning difficulties and ADHD which does lead to increased stress. Marriage then breaks down due to amid life crisis with attendant adolescent behaviour...(drugs, hedonism, young thing, no responsibilities are part of new lifestyle) but WS needs children to justify the new and better life and uses them to punish BS for not allowing all this in the marriage itself.<p>Can the children fare well.....I think not. This behaviour is not conducive to marriage or parenting and theirin lies the problem. How could any children do well when one parent cannot curb the adolescent desires either married or divorced?<p>So I believe that parenting is the key.....and one parent can fully make it impossible for kids not to fare well, whether married or divorced.<p>Just my take from my own experience.

sheryl, let me be more specific...<p>Should your parents decision to be married or not solely based on what they want, or should it be based on what you want (as an adult child)?<p>wilbok, that is the point, and the emergeing truth re kids, it is the parenting that matters, not the state of the marriage.<p>It just so happens that dysfunctional parents are dysfunctional married or divorved, either way the kid loses....and functional parents are functional married or divorced, and the kids do fine (as do the adults, when no longer stressing each other). There may be a slight benefit to settling (staying married for the kids) and each has to decide how much they are willing to "settle" for in a marriage solely for the kids....other factors can come into play as well...if finances are an issue than the stresses associated with that can be aggravated by divorce too, but that is a pragmatic issue, and staying together for financial reasons sounds kinda crappy as a basis for intimacy too...ya know?

It is just reasearch, it is either right or wrong, it is not a philosophy, sheesh.<p>You're right, it is just research. This book changes nothing about what happens in a divorce nor will it change the way people will parent their children in a divorce.<p>However, people who are considering divorce may now see this and think, "wow. I guess the kids won't be as bad as I thought" and go ahead with it.<p>So I can see more people divorcing.<p>One question I hear really bothers me. It's been in Ann Landers and here in these forums.<p>"Should I stay in a loveless marriage for the children?"<p>Why would anyone in that situation think they should stay in a marriage and not fix it? I mean, if your jobs stinks but it is good money, don't try to make it better in some way?<p>[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</p>

chris....Why would anyone in that situation think they should stay in a marriage and not fix it? I mean, if your jobs stinks but it is good money, don't try to make it better in some way?<p>snl...I don't think the issue is not make any effort to "fix" things in a marriage, I think the issue is when do you throw in the towel. Part of that decision is based on consequences, a big one being concern over the effect on your children. This kind of information keeps that consideration balanced, and not an undue influence. IMO (for example) that might mean at the point where you would leave if single, you now give it another try, another year (or whatever) of counselling yada yada yada.... BUT not be of the mind divorce is not an option cause kids will be destroyed. No one can draw a line here, it is another one of those things that is dependent on the people. It is similar to the whole emotional abuse/neglect issue. Some folks are willing to accept circumstances others would not maritally, hence the "advice" so often of some saying leave the marriage this is unacceptable, and others saying no, work with it, ou can do this?????????? How can this be? It is because we all react differently, and what is tolerable to someone else, may be killing you.<p>re the job thingy, good analogy, and is real life....but tell me this, what advice do we give people who are terribly unhappy in jobs, and feel trapped and such? We tell em (after we tell em to be sure of themselves) to LEAVE...why? Because their emotional/psychological health is more important than money....similarly one needs to leave a marriage that is not a happy place for you..... not just put on a happy face, a "make" it work.<p>and yes you are correct, this research will lead to more divorces amongst those who are desperately unhappy and are staying only for the kids....isn't that a good thing?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>sheryl, let me be more specific...<p>Should your parents decision to be married or not solely based on what they want, or should it be based on what you want (as an adult child)?<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Of course it shouldn't be based on me or any adult child. <p>My point was that it still HURTS as an adult child.<p>Listen snl, I went through personal hell leaving my nearly-adult children with their dad (2 over 18)... those children came out of my body, and it HURTS daily... for ALL OF US. <p>Being an adult only changes the rules a bit. Obviously, staying in a marriage strictly for adult children is ridiculous, but staying for minor children makes sense to me, if that's what a couple or individual chooses to do.<p>And since I love the bottom line - DIVORCE SUCKS, and I wish I'd never had to go through it. <p>But since I did, I'm trying to put my life (and that of my children, in a way that is meaningful and appropriate) back together.

When people decide to have children they add an extra level of commitment (or should be) to their union. It is quite clear that the act of taking vows in this country is more like a "wish" than a real vow. Having kids more like an accessory than a commitment to nuture another human being to all of one's ability. I guess our lives must be pretty cushy if we have the time and energy to obsess non-stop about our emotional fulfillment and sexual needs. Probably a big reason why divorce is less common in places like India, China, and South America. Places where family stability may mean life or death--it certainly isn't accommodated half as easily as it is here. To us (and lots of other people living our luxurious lifestyle), all we gotta do is worry about whether we are having great sex, or if all of our hopes and dreams are being realized by the blow-up doll, I mean, spouse sleeping next to us.