As many of you have read of SNL posts. He is adamant on divorce. SNL and thinker had counseling with Steve Harley today. Steve received my homework from about 6 weeks ago, after counseling, and SNL stated to Steve that he didn't send his homework cause he thought about it and said he wasn't going to send it. SNL has homework for next time, but as yet has not set a new date, and SNL and Steve went back and forth about a time slot. SNL couldn't give a time and Steve became more adamant on a specific time. It is somewhere now before next Thursday. No next time set yet for counseling.<p>Steve talked to SNL about disrespectful remarks to me. He made comments to me on the phone with Steve, that were disrespectul. Asked if he likes doing that to me? Cause SNL hung up the phone on Steve, and cut Steve off in discussion. I could tell last night that SNL was getting defensive and this morning was not good. This seems to happen often lately when we have counseling. SNL made a comment about he would of eventually made an appointment to finalize things. SNL made disrespectful comments to me. I did the same, and am sorry. <p>Steve asked SNL what his plans were. Neither of us know, and Steve wanted to know. SNL had no plans, couldn't say what my needs were, couldn't say what the homework assignment was last time. After we talked to Steve, Asked SNL if he understood the homework, he basically said, not really, something about, disrespectful comments, anger, no LB. He still doesn't know what Steve wants. A comment was made from Steve, SNL bascially philosophized a great amount of the time. THey talked about 2 people meeting each other needs and filling their EN and they are happy ever after. Steve, said part of the fun is dating, getting to know each other, and then meeting EN of the other person. This is what he and Debbi his lover did. He said after you met her you had fun, didn't you. SNL couldn't say fun, he said we were exploring each other. SNL has an answer for everything.<p>I talked to SNL about lust last night. I said no one told the two of you to take your clothes off and search each others bodies sexually. SNL still says it was not lust. Said he had no attentions of taking her clothes off and having sex. Why don't one of you ask who started it? SNL tells me she is the one who wanted to go to the hotel instead of dinner. When his eyes saw a naked overweight woman, I am sure his organ got hard and he touched her body all over. In the bible it says, when 2 people see each other and the sex hormones arise, that is lust. Will did they lust or didn't they? SNL asked when does the affair not get brought up, STeve said, when thens are being recognized and answered. He stated there are no answers here, we are just waiting, for what, we don't know. <p>Steve also talked about justifying SNL affair. Said we will get no where if one does not state that they feel remorse or guilt for an affair. He stated that to SNL today, and said you won't go anywhere until you realize the guilt and remorse.
Also, asked SNL what remorse says, of course SNL came out with sentences after sentences, but you know in the realm of the sentences, he only feels bad that he made me sad. There is nothing towards the sexual aspects, or having a woman that he spent family time on, family money on emotions on. NOTHING! <p>Also, when SNL was talking on the phone, SNL yelled at the adult kids in our home to be quiet. When SNL came back, Steve said that is not the way to handle the kids. Asked if you talk to them like that all the time. SNL said they were making a racquet. Steve basically stated that is anger, and anger is going nowhere.<p>Therefore, Steve, asked SNL where do we go? Steve recognizes that SNL is not going to follow the path. SNL stated doing what we were doing is what he wants to do. And Steve made the statement of one of you are going to get burnt out cause there is no plan. Nothing to work forward to, nothing for one to see progress being made. As far as Steve could see, he stated today, you two are aheaded towards divorce. Steve told me that I should seek a lawyer and find my rights. I told him I have already found a lawyer that was highly recommended. Asked if there was separation law in our state, and I said no. I don't know if I should talk to the lawyer about a permanent separation, knowing that I can get SNL out of the house very quickly. This is what I feel SNL wanted in the law run, to divorce and search for a new person in his life. With all that his lover Debi did, he still would have her back, and throw me out. Doesn't he see that she is not the saint, the hand and glove, the fitting, the one-flesh. She used you SNL, and she will use someone else. This is her lot in life and she needs some emotional help.<p>I asked Steve the question, why doesn't SNL get a lawyer and get a divorce? Steve told me he is scared, and he doesn't want to be the badguy. So SNL has made things not very encouraging here, so I would break and go for the lawyer. He is the one who had a sexual affair, and doesn't want the divorce to be started by him. He wants me to be the badguy. I guess it worked for SNL, he got me to break, and I will talk to the lawyer. So much for doing the work of MB on my part, like I said, and Steve said today, it takes 2 to work on a marriage 100% to get it an in-love situation. With one only doing the 100%, will never work. So that is where we are at. SNL doesn't make it a safe place, doesn't want to meet my EN, as SNL has stated in many posts. SNL doesn't even know what MB wants someone to do in a marriage. <p>As you all have read, just in his last post on GQII, he doesn't want the marriage, and doesn't hate me, but will never love me. He had his in-love with a woman who had 2 sexual affairs, and possibly l of the OW getting on to a service man, and he loves this woman. She doesn't work, manipulated and coerced me with suicide. She didn't mind SNL spending our hard worked money on her. Didn't offer to pay her own bills, and should of cut it off immediately. But she used SNL, Steve says the same thing. She didn't want to work, probably cause she had it too good (had an affair for affection and money and her H at home) and she is lazy. I still feel SNL has had connections with his lover. Because SNL has not made me feel safe and special. <p>We will see what SNL has to post again. Also, Steve said today, SNL feeds on the negativism here, and that is causing him to not follow the path, SNL would rather debate and philosophize with who ever joins him. As you can see it is repetitive of over the last 9 months. It would be good for us and the family if SNL would be honest, and tell us all he doesn't want the marriage, doesn't want to be here and wants to find a new life. <p>Radical honesty is hard when others will be hurt. But that is life, honesty causes pain. Steve said the kids will be hurt and will be pained by the divorce. I will try to get them into counseling if they (the kids) will participate in counseling and have a good person to vent their anger towards. Yes, money will be tight, but I will survive, and move on. SNL asked if I will work for him, no way. I want to move on to some other organization and find a new man. Afterall I am 51 and hope to find a loving man, and be honest with him that I will never marry again, I will never trust anyman in my life for life of marriage. We can live together. <p>Just a little scenario how the counseling went and to bring the truth before you all.<p>[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]<p>[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

thinker,<p> I am very sorry. All that had to have been painful for you. Please follow through on the advice Steve gave you. Protect yourself.<p> God Bless<p> jd

Thinker,<p>You tried your best, do what you have to for your own protection. You know very well that SNL won't change with the way things are now, you've been beating your head against a brick wall. I'm so sorry that it has come to this, but as Steve said, it takes 2 to work on the marriage.<p>Evensong

thinker, good for you, get a real good lawyer, and you should at least get a portion of the company, or at least shoot for it. . . .<p>you see, if he is that scared, and wants you to do the hard work, then you will eventually come out on top, because you have done the work. <p>Compassion doesn't get you a marriage, hard work and a plan does. . . . let him go, and make sure to tell him that if he changes his mind, he might as well forget it. I guess he doesn't believe in the saying, you better be careful about what you ask for. . . you just might get it. . . and then what.<p>i support you on this, being a similar personsality type as SNL, he loves the discussion, but in the end, he just likes the intellectual challenge in it. .. but after that, he is a rather shallow person, not much depth, and certainly not a good catch for someone down on their luck. . .<p>take care,
now i wish more spouses would stand up for themselves, and end the suffering, and educate the offending party that this is not the way to treat a spouse. . .. <p>wiftty<p>btw, did my post on your last thread make any sense? does it apply?

When I find the time - will reply on that later, have physical therapy this am, and going to a local hospital for application to fill out for a job. Probably won't hire me, right arm is not right.<p>Yes, all you know that SNL loves to debate, and Steve basically said, doing it for 9 months and still SNL has no answer. The thing that hurts the worst, is wish SNL would of been radically honest with me (thinker) and the kids. I feel SNL has been dishonest and this is not right. SNL expresses radical honesty with all of you and how he has been with me. The posts are incorrect, and this bothers me that he portrays himself as working 100%, doing MB, and etc. Why would Steve say get a lawyer for your protection. I asked Steve if this is a good idea, and he said, yes. When I talked to Steve alone after SNL hung up on Steve, I asked why? He said SNL is resistant to do the work, he wants things to go his way, and doesn't want to try to follow a path. He feels he knows all the answers and therefore, no progress has been made, and no progress can be registered.<p>Yes, I am very unhappy, but you know. SNL is a controller and shows anger easily. SNL seems to feel good about having the power over me, and this bothers me. SNL even stated to me last night that he disagrees with Steve in what he says. So there is the answer, SNL does what he wants,<p> But he still loves this woman who manipulated him, manipulated and coerced me with suicide. Aa woman who has had 2 affairs in her marriage, and a possible come on to a service man in her home. <p>Will see what today brings. SNL was very alone last night, didn't talk to me, just sat on the couch and watched TV. You know, things could of been nice between us, if he would of worked on it, he didn't want to, and he won! Sad, but true, and now I get to be the bad guy and get the lawyer, since SNL didn't want to be the badguy. If you read his latest post on GQII he still says he doesn't want to be here, and wouldn't marry me. Honesty is of utmost importance to have a good relationship. Good Luck SNL with your new life. Love Thinker. Not once during this 9 months has he told me he loved me on his own. It has always been in a discussion of love and etc. That tells you something. I did in the beginning, and some later, but I need my lovebank filled too.

Just for the record I do not feel it would be useful to "defend" myself, hopefully thinker finds this helpful, and those who support her re her rendition of the "facts" do so conservatively. I know she is unhappy, and I know she is hurting, and I wish neither of those things were true. She will have to assess me as she will, and act accordingly (as we all do), but I do not hate her....she is important to me, andI want her to be ok, whether you believe that or not thinker.<p>As for you wifty....I have told thinker all along is only fair if we ever divorce she gets to name the terms, how fair she will be, I don't know, but I trust her. The only value the business has is my getting up everyday and going out and doing it, unfortuneately personal service businesses have little inherent value (can hardly give em away), and she has said she does not want to continue to work in it, so it will pretty well fall apart, I can't do it myself...but financial hardship is just one of the many fallouts of these things I suppose. In any event there is enough resources for one person to be reasonably comfortable and secure, I assume it will be her....shallow huh? Maybe you could define shallow. Intellectual? Sure, is that bad? I have come to accept their is only one redemption for a ws, and that is full remorse, and returning to the fold, there are no other acceptable outcomes. It makes no difference what I do, if I don't do that, the way I am "suppose" to, I am pondscum...so be it.

Thinker,<p>I'm a lurker here, but have been following your story and seen the pain that BOTH of you are in. Call me a sideline cheerleader since I have been rooting for you and SNL for the last 6 months. <p>You've received practically unconditional support here, and what I'm about to say is support too and I hope you'll see it as such. Note: This post isn't about SNL, and his poor choices/actions, but about yours since this is your thread. <p>Why are you posting this stuff on this board. You've put every bit of negativity possible into your posts and done your best to make SNL look small and mean-spirited. I think I read from you that you had agreed to leave this place as a haven for him while you were going to post on i.com. You being here and writing the same stuff over and over about SNL and his EX-OW is probably one of the biggest LB's you've inflicted on him and is not a good Plan A (which you say you've tried). <p>Your anger is understandable, but following him around here and saying ugly things has got to be one reason why he hasn't responded to you in a positive way. Do you talk to him like this at home? Do you? Is the constant re-hashing and threats of going after OW, or comparing yourself to OW, something that has been constant since the affair? <p>If so, none of it seems to be part of marriagebuilders therapy. I guess my point is that I hope that you'll try a real Plan A before ending this marriage. Get the individual therapy you need to deal with your anger and then make the decision on whether to end the marriage when you're emotionally capable. I don't think you're there.<p>Best of luck to you. I mean that.

Thinker,
I think you're long overdue for the divorce. I have (tried) to read many of snl's posts. Unfortunately, he is much too long-winded for me. I believe all of the philosophizing (sp) is a smokescreen to keep from being the bad guy. I do remember his questioning "love" being a choice, etc. Not sure if I've gotten it all right. My point is you DESERVE to be with someone who wants to love you for you. This man does not and has made that pretty clear. The one thing that I wished for when I was trying to recover my marriage was HONESTY. Some people are just not capable of giving it. You've admitted that you wanted radical honesty. With all the talking snl does, I believe he's tried to be honest, but you are correct, he, like my H does not want to be the bad guy. I can't tell you how many times throughout all of this my H has said "I don't hate you." I finally looked at him last week and said "quit saying You don't HATE me. I've NEVER given you reason to HATE me. It means NOTHING to me that you say it, so stop saying it." My H knows full well he's given me reason to hate him. His continued lies (he NEVER told me the truth, not once; I ALWAYS had to catch him back with OW), his betrayal and his disrespect of me over the last year could have made me HATE him big time. However, I've told him that I don't hate HIM, I hate EVERYTHING he's done to me and our children over the last year. Get the lawyer, get the divorce and put yourself, snl and your CHILDREN out of all this misery. As I told my H last week when he asked if we could be best friends again someday (by the way, he also wants to come over occasionally and have AWESOME sex), I said "I want someone who wants and appreciates and respects ALL OF ME. I don't want to be someone's shoulder to cry on when the OW is hurting them; I don't want to be someone's SEX toy; I want to be someone's LOVE OF THEIR LIFE." Sorry for rambling. The gist of it all is, we ALL deserve happiness. You've tried; it's not working, now GO FIND YOUR HAPPINESS!!<p>PEACE,<p>MOM<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Myownme ]</p>

Thinker,<p>If this sort of thing has been going on for all the years of your marriage, then it is no wonder that you are angry. <p>Years of little hurts and disappointments, Years of debates rather than a straight answers, the little moments all getting stuffed until they start bubbling up to the surface because they can no longer be held back.<p>Is this how you feel?<p>Something I had to learn for myself:
No matter what the provocation, no matter how angry I got, acting out is never the right thing to do. If my husband does something hurtful, calling him a poopy head will not help things, and it serves to make me look childish and out of control. <p>Another example, my husband dings my car with his car door, so I run outside and slam my door right back into his car. Was he wrong to ding my car by not being careful? Yes. Was I right to run out and ding his car? No. Now he feels he has the right to point a finger at me and put blame and guilt on my shoulders. If I had controlled myself, and not "acted out", then there is no more fuel.<p>Of course, if my H dinged my car and I said "hey you dinged my car!!" His response would be, "I didn't see it, you parked too close..." These are examples of defensive reasoning and denial. After years of "debating" like this with my husband I started to get very angry. Everything was always my fault. The anger I felt bubbled up, and then I began to act out. Things got much worse between us.<p>I had to learn to love, cherish, and CONTROL myself. For my own good. Because I will not stay married to this man. He is not going to change and he has huge emotional problems. However, I will be a better person - because I used this experience to learn about myself.<p>Thinker, use this experience to learn about yourself. Perhaps the affair brought all the rage out that you have held onto over the years.<p>Patricia Evans writes some very good books on verbal abuse and controlling relationships. I would recommend that you read them.

Thinker,
I am glad you are finally reaching a point of taking some action. It can only be good for you to regain some sense of control of your life. <p>However, I think ALady makes some excellent points. I have said the exact same thing to you at least 10 times - as long as you keep re-hashing the affair you will not move on. You bring up the physical aspects of SNL and the OW in every single post. This cannot be healthy for you. You still are not taking care of you. You are so focused on HER that you aren't even in the picture. Please, please address this.<p>best of luck

Alady and Wiffer - you didn't read some of the posts correctly. The reason the OW is on my mind all the time is, according to Steve, there is no plan, no path, no nothing from SNL. He sits and sits, and we are all to wait for an answer from him. Steve said, if there was a plan, a solution then the affair could dissolve, but SNL can't even give Steve a plan, nothing. He just says he is doing the best he can. Also, SNL warned me to not tell anyone about the sexual affair. He said it will be hurtful to him and the family. So I have held this information in and it is eating away, to this day. That is why it keeps coming up, you need to vent and talk to someone to clear your head and beable to move ahead. SNL has not let this happen. He sits, and we wait. If this is his best it is better we end this paper marriage. <p>I have read on the posts how SNL and the OW had a fit, a soulmate, etc. Well, I also listened to her voice and she doesn't sound like someone in-love with SNL. She sounds like a very ill person mentally. Heard her say she doesn't want to hurt Coy her husband, but I didn't hear anything about me or my family. It was her, her, her!!!!!<p>Yes, I hate it when SNL says I do not hate my (paper) wife. Please don't say that any more SNL. Talking to Steve, he said the same, it doesn't mean anything. SNL has not been honest, and talking with Steve I asked, and Steve said SNL is afraid and does not want to be the bad guy. Look at the post he just posted, the same old crap, but doesn't say, I want my wife back, I want to have a marriage, just where the dice fall and move on sort of thing. <p>You people don't know how miserable it has been for myself and our kids to see SNL and his actions. It was not kind, considerate, or loving. It was pure h*ll to stay here and have SNL scream, call names, and everything was woe is me. I don't know how many times he said - what about me. He said this to Steve - what about me, and Steve told him that is not acceptable. <p>So to conclude, yes I have been working my butt off. The counselors have stated that I have been working hard, but you know when only 1 works at this and is not getting their lovebank deposited with love, it can't go on. No gas to energize the motor. Go ahead and defend SNL, it really doesn't matter now. As you can see SNL, is happy now. He won, doesn't have to be the bad guy, and he can have his freedom to do whatever he wants now. <p>Seems he and his OW fit like hand and glove.<p>As for me not working with SNL. I have done this for the last 12 years, no paycheck, nothing to show to the IRS. When I tried to get social security checks for my disability, I was denied cause I have not worked in the last 10 years. Sure, I have done many 12-18 hour days, taking calls, dispatching, and doing the paper work. Now I have nothing to show for my hard work. Even filling out applications, I have nothing to put down. This is h*ll for a 51 year old woman, with a nursing (just LPN), no work record for the last 12 years, to get a job with a disability. <p>Now SNL wants to see about getting me on the payroll. Well it is too late! I feel the only reason, is cause we are getting a divorce, and he wants to make sure I have a job. I want a real job, a job that provides insurance, dental, eye, and sick pay, and paid vacations. The damage has been done, and I will be financially in deep trouble. But you know, 2001 was a bad year (SNL sexual affair, not caring about his family or money, my dad becoming quite ill, my surgery, lost grandpa, and aunt Rose) and 2002 is starting out to be a pretty bad year (lost my friend - my father Jan 2, 2002), SNL still sitting. So if things keep getting from bad to worse, to more worse - what is the use of staying here on earth. If the rest of my life I am going to have to fight to have food, shelter, clothing, and medical help there is no desire to continue on. Sure SNL can get a job anywhere, he has HVAC skills, and I worked so he could to to school and get his skills in this trade. I came to this marriage with money, he didn't, I am leaving without money and he has money, a secure job, thinker nothing. This is not a woe is me, just pure truth and that is all.<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

thinker,<p>I honestly don't think your marriage is going to recover. I am glad to see you talking to a lawyer and hope that the financial dissolution will be fair.<p>I know this is very tough, and very, very disillusioning to think that recovery might have worked, "if-only" SNL had done this, or not done that, or if this or that had happened. But, those "what-ifs" can really do you in. Start working on recovering you as an individual, OK? Look towards the future, not the past.<p>Hugs--<p>Kathi

Thinker - I was a WS years ago. I have to echo what the others said. Your bringing up the affair and the other woman is extremely damaging to your relationship. Believe it or not, the more you knock her the better she looks! When my first husband and I were considering divorce I didn't know where the OM and I stood. One thing I did know though is that I could never stay married to my ex. I knew he'd never leave me alone in regards to my affair and I didn't want it thrown in my face. He also had his own affair shortly after discovering mine. I know this sounds insane, but I couldn't forgive him for his. I had no respect for a person that fixed their marriage problems that way. My personality was also a lot like your husband's. More into myself, crabby, depressed. I was very unhappy. I did not love my husband but I felt trapped in a marriage I didn't want. It was like I had no control over my reactions or thoughts. I took it out on my ex by yelling and screaming. By nature I am a very cheerful upbeat person. I'm the problem solver for my friends, not the one with the problems. That marriage was not good for either of us. I (like your husband), felt remorse for hurting my ex and my family but did not regret my affair or the love I had for the OM. I only regretted how it happened. I still feel that way to this day. Now years later I feel like "me". I'm not a ranter/raver - I'm happy and I belive my ex is happier in his second relationship too. Many couples can get past infidelity, but some can not. If you look at the Recovery board vs. the divorced board you'll find more doing better in their lives on the divorce board vs. the recovery board. The couples that are struggling on the recover board are those that can't let it go (either BS or WS). You can't let go of your husband's affair and he can't stop blaming you for not being happy in his marriage. Either you both need to resolve your anger and move forward thinking of only each other or you need to end it before you start hating ea. other.

Thinker,<p>PLEASE, PLEASE, I'M BEGGING YOU... STOP FOCUSING ON THE OTHER WOMAN!!!<p>Honey, you are better than that! Snl will have to live his life when you're gone, as will YOU. Thinker, the best revenge is a life well lived. LIVE YOUR BEST LIFE!!!!<p>I've said this before, BUT PLEASE LISTEN... I had a close friend here - her name was Tired Lady on the boards, Tanya, to her friends. She felt like you do, and was VERY BITTER. But she had a tender heart for other things, and couldn't see past the OW and her H. <p>Because she could not focus on HERSELF, she lost her children, and I believe, ultimately her life. She passed away in a tragic accident. <p>I'd heard from her a few months before, for the last time. She also wrote here, on MB. She said she was beginning to slowly realize the damage her bitterness had caused. She didn't see THE TRUTH. That she had WORTH, simply because she was HER. <p>There are people who love you for WHO YOU ARE. You are a WONDERFUL PERSON who CARED for her DYING FATHER and GOD knows this, as we do. Even snl knows this.<p>PLEASE, take care, and MAKE YOUR LIFE A WONDERFUL THING!!!<p>God Bless!!!!!<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

There is no one way to heal from the trauma of infidelity. I would guess that the reason Thinker talks so much about the OW is that she has been stuffing all this in an attempt to save the marriage and she is just finally able to let it out. Once SNL is out of her life and she gets some IC she will be able to start moving forward.

You're probably right KalGirl, but you remember Tired Lady, don't you?<p>I just think the bitterness really can hurt.

Yeah I remember "Tired Lady" and I remember reading her about her death. Very very sad. <p>But Thinker is married to SNL. Can you imagine living with him? It would be enough to send anyone around the bend! He feeds and thrives on negativity and shes lived with him for 20+ years! I hope for her sake that once he's out she will start focusing on herself. I see some glimpses of it here and there in some of her posts.

Yeah, that's what I hope for thinker too. And no, I can't imagine being married to him. Talk about circular reasoning!!!! Wow! She must've really loved him, that's all I gotta say!

SnL, <p>go pontificate to someone else. . .<p>thinker,<p>as i said before, if you can't share the same reality, you can't begin to recover. . .<p>I had a very difficult time with being married along time ago. . . over 10+, my first reaction was that there was something wrong with me, and i was right. I went to counseling, I stood up for myself, I was determined to solve my own problems. <p>The difference between myself (also as an INTP) is that I want to solve my own problems to be happy. I don't like being miserable. . . I want to understand and I work very hard at suceeding. . .
SnL is not doing the work, whether individually or with a counselor.. . he is fighting the work. . . those that fight the work do not get to the spiritually happy place they desire. . . the ego gets in the way. . . that's where SnL is stuck, his ego is in the way, and until he can figure out how to not be held hostage to it, he cannot forge ahead with recovery. . . he is his own worst enemy.<p>However, remember, he is a big person, and can make his own decisions, and a no decision is also a decision. . . just not an honest one. . .
his dishonesty by omission is what is taking your marriage down. . . <p>his offer of you determining the settlement is his inability to make a decision. . . and in counseling, the wise counselor told me, a long time ago. . . I had to make the decision, and i would be happier with myself if i made it than if it was made for me. . . <p>so i made my decision. . . and i was happy for it for the next ten years. . . .<p>and am now pursuing my dreams, the ones that the X has yelled at me about, and has criticised me for it, because she didn't want to do the work at understanding me, or her. . . when one doesn't want to do the work, they can't find their own happiness. . . and its obvious that SnL doesn't want to do the work. . . i call those people mentally lazy, drifters in life. . . going through the motions where work is something that takes up the time in the day. . .<p>however, that is SnL, you have to work on yourself to forgive and move on, to be able to wish him well, and to allow SnL to be himself, not what you want him to be, but himself. . . whatever he chooses that to be. . .<p>you see, i understand making mistakes, i have made tons, almost all of them possible, but i don't enable continued mistakes and lack of effort toward correcting mistakes and making life better. . . that is the spiritual work of good people. . .
I take responsiblity for mistakes, i don't debate the answers, i find them and implement them. . .<p>good luck. . .
but still, work on yourself, that work is never done. . . never complete. . .<p>wiftty

I would like to add one thing to wiffty's statements. I disagree with SNL not doing any work. I'll bet he does lots of work - working to prove himself right or prove some obscure and twisted point that he is trying to make right. Or even trying to prove someone else wrong. The work that he doesn't do is in learning about himself and correcting the things that need correcting.