Thinker,<p> I wish so much we could talk in person or e-mail regarding signs.. Thinker, believe me at one time I had a very close relationship with God. I know of at lease two times he has given me signs... A true miracle... In fact God speaks to us in so many ways and we don't even reaize it. I also live in MI...<p> Wish we could talk about this further. It is just too long and personal to go into this on the boards.

But please know my thoughts are with you and your husband. I think you both are such nice people. You both are hurting and just can't seem to connect.. Wish it didn't have to be...<p> My e-mail address is Tena04@webtv.net<p> 0 as in zero not the letter

I'm not familiar with this situation (as none of us are, except for SnL and Thinker)...<p>It seems to me like no one is making progress because no one is letting go of the blame. "Yes I hurt him/her, BUT"...that kind of thing. <p>Thinker...at what point do you start taking an active role in your own fate/happpiness?<p>SnL...Thinker is your wife...but if she is unhappy in life it is NOT all your fault.<p>Why should either one of them want to try to heal this situation when the other party won't stop playing the blame game? I've said it before...we use blame in order to avoid taking RESPONSIBILITY for the condition of our lives. If you truly can't let the blame go and start resolving some issues...then you probably are better off divorced.<p>[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

Part of the hurt is that it seems life is going fast. I don't have a husband, I lost my dad just a few weeks ago, (a special dad), just seems I don't want to do anything. It is depression, I know. I had it when SNL came out with the affair, when he told me he was sexual with the OW and doesn't feel any remorse or guilt, and now. <p>We just got home from doing some service calls. Made dinner from leftovers last night and now to see what else I can get done.<p>Yes, I will survive, but life is a bi*ch and then you die.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by thinker:
<strong><p>Yes, I will survive, but life is a bi*ch and then you die.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thinker I have heard you say this so many times I wanted to address it. I am going to be really direct here, but please know I am saying this because I want you to be happy.<p>Life is not a bi*ch unless you let it be. I'm going through a lot of changes right now, past physical abuse that caused a divorce I never wanted but felt had to be, when he left we also shut down a business we worked together on, one that was successful at one point, we are now facing bankruptcy, I don't have a job, he doesn't have a job, I may lose my house, but not one day have I considered life to be a b*tch...I am happy because I know I have my children, I have my health and my children have their health. I could say he ruined my life or I could make a new, happier life, this is up to me. We choose to be happy or not. You can do this.<p>I never had a good relationship with my father, he was a drunk and never paid attention to me, I used to think he didn't like me. One day my sister said the same thing, she thought dad never liked her either. My point is, although your father is passed on now, you can look at it as a blessing that you had those special years with him, because this is a blessing. Remember the good times and know he will always be with you in spirit.<p>I know it's hard with everything going on in your life, but every day remind yourself of the things you still have.<p>As for myself, I think if I ever didn't realize the gift God gave me with my children and my family, if I get greedy and want more and more, little by little more and more will be taken away from me. I need to appreciate what I have.<p>Please know it is in you to be happy or be sad. Only you can do this, no one else can for you.<p>Again, life is not a b*tch unless you let it be. <p>Take care and I hope you find happiness some day.<p>ANNA

Anna 2000 - thank you, I am happy we have 4 very healthy children. I guess depression causes me to say the things I say. I basically am happy with what God gave us, but I need to get God back into my life. I felt much happier when I knew I was counting on God and not on things here on earth. Prayers needed, appreciated and welcomed. Thanks for you wonderful words, need a eye opener like that!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Anna2000:
<strong>
SNL, you say you care that thinker is having suicidal thoughts. You ask about what you can do about this. Thinker is begging you to leave and do the honorable thing. She needs you to take this responsibility. Do the right thing SNL, also try to get her help. The things she is saying are warning signs, she is crying for help. She isn't asking you to stay anymore and saying she'll kill herself if you don't, she's asking you to take responsibility and leave. This is what you can do for her to help her right now.<p>One of my closest friends in highschool killed herself, the warning signs were there and no one, including me took her seriously, we all thought it was attention getting. Please take her seriously. You had an affair, you tell her you can never love her like you did OW, you tell her she doesn't fit what you want. It's like you are draining her emotionally so she will end it for you. She is begging you to to end it if you don't have the right feelings for her so go.<p>I remember once telling you that after my husband attacked me I think I starved him emotionally for affection because I knew if I left he'd stalk me, but he fell out of love with me and left, then I could have peace. You complimented me on the approach I took. Are you doing something similar? If you are it's not right for you to do this, the situation is NOT the same.<p>ANNA</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL,<p>I know you become overwhelmed answering everyone's post but I was hoping you would respond to the above because I think it is important.<p>Thinker,<p>I'm glad my comments helped you.<p>ANNA

Hi Thinker,<p>You said that SNL compares you to OW. <p>And, I've heard you compare yourself to OW.<p>In my opinion, there is no comparison - and you don't have to "buy into" SNL's opinion. Let him have his opinion - your opinion is the only one that counts!<p>I have some people in my life that have very low opinions of me. I've adopted the philosophy that "Their opinion doesn't count!"<p>Many times I've heard my step-daughters feel worthless because these same people have expressed their opinion. I've told my step-daughters this: "LOL, Those people STILL think their opinion counts!!!" It made them feel better. <p>The point of my post on your thread here, is that "IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT MATTERS, no one else's." <p>Okay?<p>(((Thinker)))

tnt, just for the record, I do not compare my wife to ow...or vice versa, I don't believe in such things, people are people, we are all different, and all the same...and need to be "judged" (so to speak) on our own merits...nor do I believe in trading in spouses (or friends, etc.) each relationship survives or not on it's own merits. The only reason I have said anything about ow is cause my wife insists on knowing some things, like what I see in her.<p>anna...I remember once telling you that after my husband attacked me I think I starved him emotionally for affection because I knew if I left he'd stalk me, but he fell out of love with me and left, then I could have peace. You complimented me on the approach I took. Are you doing something similar? If you are it's not right for you to do this, the situation is NOT the same.<p>snl...No I am not doing this...I really don't understand all the theories about my nefarious motives....maybe I am just what I am....someone who needs to understand things is more detail than most....does that make me a bad person? I do not think I mistreat thinker either. If my very existence, being who I am, is a love buster, what does that mean?

SNL,<p>Heading for bed but clicked on the post saying....It is late...I need sleep...I will not respond...I will not respond...YEA RIGHT [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Okay, your response was not the part I thought was important, let me rephrase my statement into a question.<p>SNL, you said you don't know what to do for your wife and her thoughts of wanting to die. <p>Her sanity needs you to be responsible and do the right thing.<p>Her sanity needs you to move out and you SNL to file for divorce, not her.<p>Will you do this for your wife's emotional state of mind?<p>ANNA<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>snl...No I am not doing this...I really don't understand all the theories about my nefarious motives....maybe I am just what I am....someone who needs to understand things is more detail than most....does that make me a bad person? I do not think I mistreat thinker either. If my very existence, being who I am, is a love buster, what does that mean?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Perhaps I missed it, but did you answer my earlier question? <p>Why don't you file for divorce?<p>I am reluctant to theorize on your motivations, and yet I am curious to know what they are.<p>
You have stated over and over again that you do not want this marriage, that you no longer love thinker, and that you and thinker will never be able to have a relationship as man and wife. That is obvious. Yet what is unclear is what you intend to DO about the situation.<p>Whether you intend to or not, you are torturing your wife with your lack of action in this respect. She is in return torturing you by clinging/pleading/threatening in order to somehow "force" you to return to the marriage.<p>This mutual misery must stop, and after reading some of thinker's posts, I've realized that YOU must be the one to stop it.<p>Unlike thinker, you analyze everything from a rational point of view. Emotion plays almost no part in your analysis. <p>Yet for all your analysis, you haven't acted upon the results of that analysis. Your rational mind has told you over and over again that your marriage is over, you don't love your wife, and you'd be better off with someone else, yet you have stayed married and even made half-hearted attempts to save that which you know is already doomed. <p>
Why?<p>You know full well (or you should) that thinker will probably never file for divorce, yet you seem reluctant to file on your own.<p>
Why?<p>
As you said, you seek to understand things in more detail than most, yet while you claim understanding of those things, you do not act upon them in an appropriate manner.<p>
Why?<p>
I think I know the answer.<p>You have insisted over and over again that you cannot help "the way that you are." In your mind, you have locked in your Personality Type and continually use it as an excuse for your behavior. The "its just the way I am" argument is a cop-out: it becomes an excuse for anything you do from here on out.<p>In other words, no one can ever fault you for whatever action you take (or fail to take) because that would be an indictment of your very existence!<p>When you bring up the "its just the way that I am" argument, you retreat to a morally ambiguous high ground where no one can touch you. <p>
This is an abdication of personal responsibility and a logically indefensible position. You should know better, and I think you do.<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: cjack ]</p>

CJ is exactly right.<p>For the love of God, please file.

SNL,<p>I know my question wasn't answered yet, but I know eventually you will get to it...<p>I have some more thoughts to pass by you. This is just confusing to me...<p>Okay, you say that you are not willing to divorce your spouse, but you stay in the house telling her day after day she is not what you want, etc., etc.,<p>From what she says, you told Jen Harley you are not willing to leave even though it is hurting her and your children because it's your house and you have the right to stay...<p>However, you also say that if Thinker files for a divorce then you will let her set all the rules regarding what she gets property wise, etc...<p>But then this sounds like emotional blackmail, like you are saying "Thinker, if you tell me to leave and file for a divorce, I won't do that, I will stay here day in and day out making you an emotional wreck. This will continue until you, yourself file, and then I will leave and give you whatever you want, but you have to file first..."<p>Along with my other question in the previous post...Can you tell me if the above statement sums it up also?<p>ANNA<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

SnL,<p>What CJack said is so RIGHT ON.<p>You are acting somewhat like my x-H is this regard, SnL.<p>My x-H felt as long as I was warned that he was messed-up ("it's just the way I am"), it was my responsibility if I was hurt by him.<p>Your words are not matching your actions, SnL.<p>Jo<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

anna.. Heading for bed but clicked on the post saying....It is late...I need sleep...I will not respond...I will not respond...YEA RIGHT <p>snl...Ya know, many of us "fit" quite well, we are obsessive communicators... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] we "cope" by talking endlessly, knowing if we just do it enough, we will "eventually" get it righjt. Ring a bell with anyone?<p>anna...SNL, you said you don't know what to do for your wife and her thoughts of wanting to die.
Her sanity needs you to be responsible and do the right thing. Her sanity needs you to move out and you SNL to file for divorce, not her.<p>snl...You are not a psychiatrist, and cannot possibly know that, I assume it is food for thought? However, I do recognize the point, and have talked with thinker. I have told her she is responsible for herself, has to be, for her own good (I have played that co-d role far too long, for either of our goods, that was my mistake, I should have known better....jeesz, a real co-d thing to say huh?). So if she wants to file, that is what she should do. For me to do that "for" her, would only perpetuate the co-d relationship. What she needs from me is honesty, and it is what she has been getting (and dealing poorly with) for the first time in many years (I was honest early in marriage too, with disasterous results, and learned to stuff). I am not ready to file, so I won't, but I have no objection to filing (despite the armchair analysis of snl by many of you). I have been working through my stuff too ya know. Trying to understand my contibution to the marital failure, as well as my own dysfunctions, and how that is all related....how can I decide something like divorce without doing that? I am sorry it distresses thinker, but that's life, we set this in motion decades ago, and now WE (both of us) pay the price. I am being as respectful, and compassionate as I can, but I cannot spare her the pain, or myself the pain, and I will not run away.<p>We have discussed this, last few days. How long does stuff like this take, what is reasonable, can we set timelines for action, etc. I think yes, one can, and we talked about it...in general I think a year (form D) is a practical amount of time (assuming people are working at this stuff) to make an assessment of where it is going, and alter the relationship (seperation or divorce), or both agree to additonal efforts and time. That would be this summer, and I essentially agreed that remaining married would be a poja issue (meaning we both have to want it, default being divorce). I also told thinker as part of my ammends (re the affair part of our issues) she can decide who files, her if she wants, me if she doesn't want....and that I will sign any divorce agreements she thinks reasonable. This is all I can do anna, and I think it is the proper way to proceed. She can of course file tomorrow if she wants, that is her choice. I would still cooperate with her, but I cannot decide for her.<p>cjack ...Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:No I am not doing this...I really don't understand all the theories about my nefarious motives....maybe I am just what I am....someone who needs to understand things is more detail than most....does that make me a bad person? I do not think I mistreat thinker either. If my very existence, being who I am, is a love buster, what does that mean?<p>cjack...Perhaps I missed it, but did you answer my earlier question? <p>Why don't you file for divorce?<p>snl...see above. I am trying to understand my circumstances well enough to make such a decision, are you implying I am taking too long? If so, where are the guidelines? This is a 24 year marriage that has been rough, the preivious "FIVE" years my w was adamant about my worthlessness and wanting a divorce...perhaps you should ask her why she didn't file? I kept expecting papers any time.<p>cjack...You have stated over and over again that you do not want this marriage, that you no longer love thinker, and that you and thinker will never be able to have a relationship as man and wife. That is obvious. Yet what is unclear is what you intend to DO about the situation.<p>snl...That is not quite accurate. I ask lots of rhetorical questions, and play devils advocate as well, and say little about my personal choices, people are quick to assign my rhetoric as my mindset, that is mistake when assessing what is on snl's mind, it is usually best just to ask me a direct question if one is really interested in my mindset at a particular time about something specific. It is correct I do not want this marriage, that has been true for some time, even before the affair, I just did not know what to do about it, having been thoroughly indoctrinated in Christian dogma like many of you. What thinker and I are doing is exploring remarrying...a new marriage. I consider the particular status of the "paper" (our legal status) as irrelevant to this process, paper does not make you married (or divorced) your heart and mind do. Many married people are not married at all, just have a legal contract.<p>I realized I do not have a clue to what love is, a large part of what I have been doing is uncovering the nuts and bolts of love, pairbonding, and how that relates to marriage, and mental/physical health. I need to know these things to understand my feelings, and how to act on them. I do love thinker, it is indeed a caring love, that has not changed, I also love her dutifully (the decision kind) as someone I chose to walk through a significant part of life with, have children with, and have a history with...that means I will obey my obligations to honor and protect her as best I can, regardless of what she does to me, and I have done so our entire marriage, and will do so married or divorced. The issue is pairbonding, what we call "in-love" our ability to nurture each other, and be psychologically safe/connected. We have never had that, unlike many of you, we knew it going in, and thought being married could overcome it, it did not. What you see here is my struggling with that too, and how it has manifested itself, that may appear like I am critizing thinker, but I am not, I am just explaining how the marriage has looked to me, and soliciting feedback. Unfortuneately thinker reads all my stuff (against my wishes) and becomes angry/depressed/defensive.....I don't know what to do, I can't not talk about it, stuffing it again solves nothing.<p>cjack...Whether you intend to or not, you are torturing your wife with your lack of action in this respect. She is in return torturing you by clinging/pleading/threatening in order to somehow "force" you to return to the marriage.<p>snl...Indeed, it is torture (for both of us), but the process has to be gone through, radical honesty requires it. Or you never have a good base. The fact that we are having such a hard time even dealing with this is important too.....everything reveals truth cjack, as long as people are not deliberately messing with each other (and I think that is rare, one would have to be a psychopath or something). Part of the issue is the "forcing" and you are right it feels like force, something I respond very poorly to emotionally. Yet I have encouraged this, cause it always worked in the past.<p>cjack....This mutual misery must stop, and after reading some of thinker's posts, I've realized that YOU must be the one to stop it.<p>snl...The story of our marriage, the emotional responsibility has always been mine, I finally self-destructed under the load.<p>cjack...Unlike thinker, you analyze everything from a rational point of view. Emotion plays almost no part in your analysis.<p>snl...Why do you assume that? Could it be I recognize it would be fruitless to "debate" emotion? So I ultilize this place for the rational component. Cjack, if all I was doing was making a rational assesment, I would never let thinker go, if you want to be married from a um..... performance standpoint thinker is the perfect wife, in most every way. Our issues are emotional, she has a lot anger issues, foo issues, and both of us have some significant fitting issues (which are inherent). The fact is we are not a pairbond, we cohabitate, I can't continue to do that.<p>cjack...Yet for all your analysis, you haven't acted upon the results of that analysis. Your rational mind has told you over and over again that your marriage is over, you don't love your wife, and you'd be better off with someone else, yet you have stayed married and even made half-hearted attempts to save that which you know is already doomed. <p>Snl...Yep I am a messy human....and I struggle with self-doubt, and try stuff, and spin my wheels, but be assured I am moving in a regular direction.<p>cjack...You know full well (or you should) that thinker will probably never file for divorce, yet you seem reluctant to file on your own.<p>snl...Interesting observation. One I share, and it has confused me when she made so many threats over the years. I knew it wasn't cause she loved me, and finally I figured out it was cause she was dependent on me.....and then ultimately I realized (after the affair) I was dependent on her, and I finally understood our pathology.<p>cjack....why?<p>snl...Cause if I had gone ahead and filed, without trying to work with her....even knowing we could remarry, then I would only have fed her sense she is worthless (foo issue), she has very low self-esteem and I am a rescuer, but I enabled the pattern, cause I am a very good rescuer. I can't "fix" her, only me, but I can stop the pattern, and I have...you all are witnessing the fallout of a paradigm change in the snl/thinker household.<p>cjack...As you said, you seek to understand things in more detail than most, yet while you claim understanding of those things, you do not act upon them in an appropriate manner.<p>
Why?<p>snl...Perhaps, but I think I am acting in the most appropriate matter....ya see, I have an advantage over you all, I have known thinker for 29 years, observed her closely, lived with her (obviously), I know who she is. That doesn't mean I know the the best path to take, and I am screwed up myself, but all things considered, I am probably a better judge of what to do than people here are. <p>cjack...I think I know the answer.<p>snl...I wish somebody did, I really want an email form God, but let's see what cjack has to say.<p>cjack...You have insisted over and over again that you cannot help "the way that you are." In your mind, you have locked in your Personality Type and continually use it as an excuse for your behavior. The "its just the way I am" argument is a cop-out: it becomes an excuse for anything you do from here on out.<p>snl...Tsk tsk, come on cjack, you really think me that shallow, or brain dead? The fact is temperament is inherent, and genetically determined (not my thoughts, but I agree, I read lots of the new information emergeing over the last ten years or so, fascinating stuff). The more you deviate from your temperament (cause cognition lets us force ourselves) the more stress (and related issues) you will experience. Therefore it is important you understand yourself, and why you do things, and not change them just to satisfy someone else. Now it you have anger issues, obsession issues, etc, those are "injuries" needing healing, but if you don't like rules, cause you are motivated by what works, and will break a rule in a heartbeat, well that is just who I am (for instance)...and if futures are more important to me than history(then again is just who I am), but these kinds can be stressors to when interracting with other humans who don't think that way, process that way, etc. That does not mean I can do whatever I want, I have to give way to others ways of doing things too in a ciivilzed world, but understanding each other and accomodating is important...that is not done often enough. But in intimacy, it may be impossible, cause intimay requires safety and vulnerabilty.<p>cjack...In other words, no one can ever fault you for whatever action you take (or fail to take) because that would be an indictment of your very existence!<p>snl...Let's not go off the deep end here, maybe the above helps clarify.<p>cjack....When you bring up the "its just the way that I am" argument, you retreat to a morally ambiguous high ground where no one can touch you. <p>snl...Absolutely, and trouce me firmly if I go there, that's why I say exactly what is on my mind, and how I see, feel etc. reality checks. But I do not respond to cliches, platitudes, let's just play nice stuff, I need specific analyisis that proves the posters point (or least makes an attempt to, I know this is hard stuff for all of us). I try to do the same...am I failing?<p>
cjack...This is an abdication of personal responsibility and a logically indefensible position. You should know better, and I think you do.<p>snl...Do you still think so? And thank-you for your comments.

SNL...a note<p>ya know...I like you snl. I read what I can of your posts (before rigamortis sets in), but I have got to tell you if I see you type "FIT" one more time I will screammmmmmmmmmm. Your post to LesBois led me to do one of two things....find you and stangle you, or look up the offending word and show you what it really means...<p>fit.(n) caprice, whim, fancy, notion: paroxysm, convulsion, siezure<p>fit. (v) equip, furnish, outfit; adapt: grace, beautify; accommodate; clothe; suit, meet, conform. See AGREEMENT, EQUALITY, PREPERATION, BEAUTY, CLOTHING.<p>fit (adj) appropriate, suitable, fitting, proper, expedient, advantageous; vigorous, well, sound.<p>(sigh)...do with this what you may.<p>allison

SNL,<p>True, I am not a Psychologist, but it doesn't take a Psychologist to see the "emotional blackmail" you are putting Thinker through. <p>You are the one who says you "don't fit"...but you want your wife to do your dirty work...<p>Isn't also true that Jen Harley said you should go too, because in so many words, you are causing an emotional unbalance in your home...She's a Psychologist SNL, but it seems that you don't listen to them either...<p>
True?<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>snl...That is not quite accurate. I ask lots of rhetorical questions, and play devils advocate as well</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps your house could use a little *less* devils' advocate - he seems to be doing just fine there without your help! You don't need worst case scenario anymore. Try checking for the BEST possible outcome and see what happens. I'll be looking forward to reading it!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
cjack...You have insisted over and over again that you cannot help "the way that you are." In your mind, you have locked in your Personality Type and continually use it as an excuse for your behavior. The "its just the way I am" argument is a cop-out: it becomes an excuse for anything you do from here on out.<p>snl...Tsk tsk, come on cjack, you really think me that shallow, or brain dead? The fact is temperament is inherent, and genetically determined (not my thoughts, but I agree, I read lots of the new information emergeing over the last ten years or so, fascinating stuff). The more you deviate from your temperament (cause cognition lets us force ourselves) the more stress (and related issues) you will experience. Therefore it is important you understand yourself, and why you do things, and not change them just to satisfy someone else. Now it you have anger issues, obsession issues, etc, those are "injuries" needing healing, but if you don't like rules, cause you are motivated by what works, and will break a rule in a heartbeat, well that is just who I am (for instance)...and if futures are more important to me than history(then again is just who I am), but these kinds can be stressors to when interracting with other humans who don't think that way, process that way, etc. That does not mean I can do whatever I want, I have to give way to others ways of doing things too in a ciivilzed world, but understanding each other and accomodating is important...that is not done often enough. But in intimacy, it may be impossible, cause intimay requires safety and vulnerabilty.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>So you believe you are just an animal - stimulus-response according to what's written in your DNA? I always believed we were here to improve our situation, not just live for the lowest common denominator. If you truly can't help yourself, and your belief has you locked into that terrible situation, no wonder you are deadlocked in your marriage. Because until you believe differently, nothing will change. Are you comfortable with that? Can you live with that? Or do you need to analyze that belief that has you so locked up?

ok, I don't like "fit" either, I am open to other suggestions that properly label the psychological mesh of two human beings, and differentiates between how that works with different pair combinations.

kayla...So you believe you are just an animal - stimulus-response according to what's written in your DNA? <p>snl...You got that from my post? Not just kayla, we are both, programmed and cognitive, cognition gives us the ability (and the only animal that can do so apparently, which makes us unique) to override out programming. But that does not mean we can (or should) change completely who we are (which would fail anyways, cause dna is very powerful). It is a matter of balance, do you like who you are kayla? That is where it starts. When it comes to marriage you do make accomodations to facillitate the common goals, but there are limits, we all have them, and those limits arise out of who we are....our DNA.<p>kayla...I always believed we were here to improve our situation, not just live for the lowest common denominator. <p>snl...That is not why we are here, the answer to why is immutable, if you believe in a no-God solution to the universe, there is only one paradigm we should live under (and this is not the place to discuss that)...if you believe in God, then all sorts of "reasons" are offered. But if you believe in a Christian God (the only one that makes sense of all the choices IMO) then we are here for one reason, to make a leap of faith, you live or die for all eternity based on your capacity to do that...(far as we know anyways).<p>kayla....If you truly can't help yourself, and your belief has you locked into that terrible situation, no wonder you are deadlocked in your marriage. Because until you believe differently, nothing will change. Are you comfortable with that? Can you live with that? Or do you need to analyze that belief that has you so locked up? <p>snl...That is what I am doing kayla, for precisely the reasons you stated. I do beleive I can help myself, and am doing pretty good at it I think...although since my path is not what others think it should be at times, they would disagree. But I am ok in my skin. Thanks for your reply.

anna...True, I am not a Psychologist, but it doesn't take a Psychologist to see the "emotional blackmail" you are putting Thinker through.<p>snl...That implies a deliberate intent to coerce someone for gain, that is how you assess me? <p>anna...You are the one who says you "don't fit"...but you want your wife to do your dirty work...<p>snl...???????? How so? I just want her to do her work and do it honestly, and civily.<p>anna...Isn't also true that Jen Harley said you should go too, because in so many words, you are causing an emotional unbalance in your home...She's a Psychologist SNL, but it seems that you don't listen to them either.<p>snl...Yes she did, early on, and I disagreed with her.