wifty that is indeed a problem I am guilty of, and try to keep in mind, you have no idea how I have improved over the years....for me, my security, my safe place lies in understanding what is going on around me. There was a time I had to win every argument, not cause I wanted to be right, but because I wanted to be safe. They are not the same thing. I could accept another viewpoint if it made sense, cause I would still be safe...but I had to be convinced by force of argument, and unfortuneately I am too good at arguing for my own good. Eventually the lighbulb went off and I realized winning a argument through semantic expertise really got me nothing, and interferred with the truth. I am a lot better listener than I use to be, but always have to watch myself...you think I do that badly? On the other hand there is a lot of very lazy logic in this world, and a lot of people who don't know why they do what they do (or why they have an opinion) and instead of legitimate debate they simply posture, and get mad at you when you call em on it. I don't claim to have all the answers, or even be right, but usually you will get a coherent and reasonable position from me, I just ask the same from others, and am quite willing to do the agree to disagree thingy, or give someone the last word. For example, I came here intiially thinking people who "settled" in marital choices were just um...."losers" afraid to be alone, or whatever...that might be true sometime, but I have learned it is a reasonable marital paradigm. And would not tell someone not to do it (although it might sound like I do sometime, cause I won't do it).

SnL,<p>so what's your life goal? what are your personal goals? and are you making any progress towards them?<p>Only you can answer that question, and the answer should not be a simple one liner, but an answer that encompasses work, personal life and dreams outside of these. . . .

harl, thought we were done? But ok...<p>harl...SNL - you should be ashamed that you are so predictable, because I'll just bet you are the kind of guy that believes he is spontaneous and unpredictable.<p>snl...No I don't beleive those things. I am very predictable, and want to be so. Spontaneous? Hmmm... actually I am maybe a 4 on the 0-10 scale. Now thinker is even more predictable, and spontaneity can easily distress her if not done right.<p>Maybe you misunderstood, I am not feeling sorry for myself, the question was just as asked, I am a little frustrated cause I don't understand something (apparently), and I would like too.<p>Harl, if you would (just a request) could you tell me exactly why you find me um.... worthy of your jibes? I am not complaining, I prefer people to say exactly what is on their minds, and use reasonable "emotion" in so doing...so I get that I offend or irritate you in some way, I just don't know why, and I would like too. Thanks for posting in any event.

Hi SNL,
I think I can qualify as a kind soul today....good thing you didn't catch me yesterday!<p>Would some kind soul please tell me what all those who are condemning me mean? I am soooooo lost in that regard, am I just suppose to shut my brain off, or just keep it all to myself? In the meantime I do (as best I can) the stuff, the stuff you all say you want a ws to do...talk, counsel, spend time together, do questionaires, ended affair (6 months ago), read books, try to not LB, apply rules of protection (especially the honesty one).... yet I am still condemned, and quite vehemently by some of you (not all are obnoxious), what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing? If someone says don't be on-line, what the heck does that mean? I can't express myself, pursue the intelectual needs I have (and thinker can't meet, maybe I should just find ow instead?)...I sometimes get the notion (and maybe youre ws does too) that I really don't count, just hand me a script tell me how it is suppose to be, and follow it, and keep my mouth shut, put on a happy face, and say over and over all is well all is well. Keep in mind I spend a lot of time reading, did have some regular tv, etc. etc.... I gave those up (cause I use time for comp)... I regularly make a point of doing things for thinker I know meets needs she has, should I write em all down and post the list her for your approval, to "prove" I actually do stuff. I really don't get it. I can understand the disagreements over love and marriage and bonding and all that...but why the complaints about me? What more can I do? <p>I think it's more in your delivery. This is an emotional forum...and most people on here are at least "a tad het up" because of the turmoil in their lives...so, some responses need to be handled a little more delicately and diplomatically. It is not that you are saying anything you don't feel and feel deeply. You know how some people jumped on Thinker for her description of your, er, anatomy? It was more than many could handle. Think of some of your responses the same way...just a little too much info. <p>Working in the highly emotional field of Women's Health...I had to learn to phrase things delicately and yet not sacrifice honesty...not an easy task when dealing with STD's, infidelity, fetal death ect...it's in the delivery.<p>But I think what also happens sometimes is that a BS will seek out WS threads and responses mostly because their communication with their own partner is damaged...and they're looking for something...some direction, some idea of what may be in the "general WS frame of mind"...and they will look at your responses and feel fear. What if these are the secret feelings their WS feels and is not revealing? I know, in the beginning when our communication was so fragile..I would do this. I would read many WS posts for this very reason...I had no idea what was in his head. And fear makes people either fight or flight...You get a lot of fighting.<p>Another point is that people are in many different stages of recovery here...newbies would not know of, and probably wouldn't research all the threads that have been posted before by you or Thinker, and are probably shocked by the "rawness" of your responses...where as some old-timers (I'll adjust my bifocals here)have grown accustomed to your styles.<p>Then, there is the blame game. The "I'm like this because she's like that." We all do that at first..it's part of discovering "what in the world happened to the relationship"! And, in a way, that's not all bad...we both know that core issues of the relationship HAVE to be scrutinized. So recognizing problems and reactions is the first step, but don't get paralysed on that step. At some point we all have to say "I'm like this..period", without the quantifier. Then we say, "Am I happy like this, do I see anything I need to change, is there something more I can do" and we own the responsibility. Not because he or she thinks, says, does or needs. So I guess this was a log-winded way of saying to both of you, get on to the next step...stop blaming and start taking responsibility for your own changes and happiness.<p>And last but not least ....<p>what the hell am I suppose to be doing that I am NOT doing? <p>Sweetie, you're lovebusting...plain and simple. Even though your thoughts and replies are radically honest and you are doing some real tough work at getting down to your deep, dark vault of feelings, fears, longings...seeing some of it in print and spelled out so vividly is a huge lovebuster for your partner...and a self esteem killer as well.<p>This is touchey..we "spoke" before of the perils of both spouses being on the board...this is a rock and a hard place for you both that none of us can help with...yes, you both deserve a safe place to vent, bounce stuff off others, get support. While my partner knows I post here and occasionally we share stuff from here..I would not want him to have read some of my earlier posts...not because they weren't honest...they were..but they would hurt him. It's that easy...the things that both of you write hurt each other...and it hurts us to watch it.
I wish I had a solution that would work for both of you.<p>And though this was addressed to you, SnL, it applies to Thinker as well. Stop hurting each other.
T

I haven't posted, because I felt that SNL took over the post, and I saw the thread up again so I read it. <p>I have an appt. with lawyer next week. I am willing to file, and have basically told SNL I would file. Yes, I would love it if SNL would file, but he is afraid to be the one to file. He has already had sex with the OW, he doesn't want to be the bad guy again and start the divorce. Steve said the exact thing. I don't fill SNL needs. You can see by his posts, and he just stated today, maybe he should go back to the OW. He told me he doesn't talk about the OW, will this didn't come from anyone elses mouth. I have suggested to SNL to go back to his sexual doll. SNL says she likes to debate, is sexually very fulfilling and not inhibited, is a slob, is not oriented to work, talks on the phone a lot, spends money whenever she feels like it, he found a safe place with her, and she manipulates people with threatening words. Yes, I don't compare to her in any of those ways. I am so GLAD!!!<p>We don't (fit)(?) whatever that means. Why don't you tell us why? Why don't you file SNL? I gave you permission to leave, and why are you still here? These last few days, I have busted my butt off getting some paperwork done, filing, and trying to live. Yes, I screwed up on some bills while my dad became seriously ill, my thoughts and mind were on my dad and my mother, besides trying to cook and clean here, and try to take care of the necessary things. To do paperwork, I knew I would screw things up. Asked SNL to take over, he didn't, but did go through the mail to get rid of junk mail (get a lot), asked him just a few days ago to take over the paperwork, he came back with it is your job. <p>I have done something else, after physical therapy, which I saw the Dr. today who did my knee surgery, need physical therapy for 2 more months, I filled out a work application last week at a local big hospital. Had to put limitations of lifting, and will see if I get any calls. I will have a hard time supporting myself, but I am not lazy like his OW. <p>As for the comparison, SNL has told me quite a few times that the OW liked to phylosophize, liked to talk, liked to debate, liked to talk about religion. And SNL, you compared her to me when we were intimate once. This hurt just provided more low self-esteem for me. Yes, I have low-self-esteem but I know I am a wonderful person. Many people have told me I am a caring individual, thoughtful, sincere, hard working, compassionate, loving, animal lover, have a LPN license, reads books, takes vows seriously, have good morals, been only with one man my whole life, etc. This is not what SNL wants, he would rather have a woman who manipulates, uses people, doesn't care about morals, has 2 sexual affairs in her marriage and most likely more, doesn't care about vows, doesn't care about marriage, doesn't care about hurting others, or her husband. And doesn't want her H to know about how bad she has been again, (sexual affair) for the second time in her marriage. <p>I have been listening to the tape of her voice mails SNL taped. Don't now. But I heard a lot of me me me. She states how she went outside of her marriage, and doesn't want to hurt her H again. She just wants to be grandma and live a normal life. She keeps telling SNL that she can't tell her H, because she is afraid, afraid of what her family will think, afraid of what friends will say, and etc. I can't see any reason anyone would want this woman in their life. Talk about sociopath, SNL this woman fits the bill to the dot. But you love her, in an intimate way, and not me. Like you said, maybe you should go and see if she wants you back. <p>SNL does what he wants to do and that is the way he lives. I am being honest, in SNL go to your other woman. I don't need you, you have stated here and many other posts that you are done. Leave and do the honorable thing. Take the bull by the horns and do what a good honorable man would do, start the divorce. Your sexual affair will come out in the divorce anyways, cause the OW will be summoned to court and all will be revealed anyways.

Why is it only SNL that everyone is pushing to act? Why does he have to be the one to file? If it is "killing" thinker to live with him - kick his butt out and file. Talk about co-dependant.
How is she becoming a strong, independent person when she is asking him to make her decisions for her.
Personally, I would always rather be the plaintiff than the defendant anyway!

Well, I'm wondering...<p>How is the tone in your house right now? Is it as volitale as it seemed over the weekend? Are you two talking about all this? Is ANY decision being made?<p>You two have been on my mind all week. <p>I wish you could find a way to be good to each other... and fair.<p>I don't suppose it occurs to you that neither of you wants a divorce since neither of you will file for it...???<p>Maybe you like it this way? Although, I CANNOT imagine that it's comfortable, loving or even live-able.<p>I know that for my ex-marriage, there just came a point, whether I loved my ex or not (and I did) that I simply could not take one more second of the life I was living. I wonder if (or rather, when) either of you will hit that point. <just wondering out loud on that one> <p>Thinking of you, and saying prayers too...<p>{I see that thinker posted when I did, which answers a few of my questions, but not all.}<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

I don't think that either of you should file for divorce YET. But SNL should move out of the house. You both need time away from the situation and each other. Nothing positive can come from the way things are now. You need the distance to really be able to see the situation for what it really is.

I am seeing the lawyer next week. I may file at that time, it feels like I will file. SNL will get what he wants. If I could turn things back to when I discovered his affair with the OW, I would of called the OW house and told her H to check on his wife and look at her cellphone bill. There are so many things I would of changed. I would of gone to the lawyer to save on money. SNL spent thousands on her. I was so stupid and hurt. But you know, I am stronger now and I don't need SNL. But he keeps stating that he doesn't want this marriage, and doesn't want me. States that if he could date me he wouldn't. Wish SNL would just say what he wants and lets get on with life. I am ready for a divorce, and I don't need this man. I will survive, it will hurt for quite awhile, but you know, it will be better not having him here knowing he doesn't love me. That he is just pretending and doing the woe is me. His OW is good for the woe is me, just listen to the tapes. And to think back, the conversations she had with me on the phone was all woe is me. I didn't realize that till just now. There was no concern for me or my family. It was all her, her kids, her grandkids, her reputation with the church, friend and family. She is a real manipulator. It was more for her reputation, than anything else. And of course to not let her husband know that she had another sexual affair.<p>Sure I would like to see this marriage work too. But you can't wish for something that the other doesn't want to happen. If a marriage consists of 1 person working 99% and the other 45% the equation doesn't match. SNL is a good man, he has a controlling side and an angry side to him. He uses manipulation with his thinking, and doesn't see where that can cause problems in relating to people. <p>I would like to know from SNL's heart, will it take the divorce papers for him to finally say what he knows is in his heart? Why doesn't he just come out and say to me and to you all here on the board, that he wants nothing more than a divorce from thinker? SNL has been doing this for 9 months now, and it seems that there should be some kind sort of answer in his head to know what he wants. After studying material for 9 months, it seems that one would beable to recite the answers by memory. He states the same question over and over. To hear the same answer over and over seems to me would be repititious. Yes, I am in a sort of whirlpool, just waiting for the plug to be pulled and to go down the drain. <p>I feel when SNL keeps stating his statements to the new MB people, he scares them. They probably come here for comfort first, and then to find answers later. Most people need the comfort to endure moving on. <p>As for SNL moving out, he won't. Jennifer wanted him to move out back in March or April and he said no. I would of, but why should the BS when the WS was still contacting the OW, and life here was pure hell for me and the kids. H screaming at me all the time, SNL yelling at kids, and stating me me me!!!! SNL doesn't want to move out now. Says it is his house. Talked this weekend about where I would live. Told him I want a place in Ann Arbor, we don't have the money to buy another place, and I need to have a job to pay the payments. Talked about what I would take with me. I want to get a small storage unit to put boxes in and get some of my things out of here. SNL is so adamant about me not getting a storage unit, says why waste the money. SNL says why don't you just stay here and the two of us live together here, but separate? SNL, say what you want, and do it!!!!!

thinker,<p>I am glad you are taking action. I do like the suggestion someone gave of having a trial separation, but my guess is that SNL would not agree to that...<p>You need to now learn to set your boundaries. SNL doesn't call the shots now regarding your needs, you do. You don't need to do what SNL says just because he says it. SNL will find that through the court system he will no longer be in control of anything...<p>Consult with the attorney, do not move out, more than likely you can get a court order and SNL will be out of the house within 2 weeks. It won't be his decision anymore...<p>Take care and keep us posted,<p>ANNA

wifty...so what's your life goal? what are your personal goals? and are you making any progress towards them?<p>Only you can answer that question, and the answer should not be a simple one liner, but an answer that encompasses work, personal life and dreams outside of these.<p>snl...jeez wifty, come on over some weekend, bring your sleeping bag and we can get into it, but for brevity I must only respond with a few one liners, give ya some idea maybe. That was goal..s.. plural wasn't it. If only one, that that would have to be being "saved" and getting to ask God someday ..."why".<p>1. I wanted to raise some children, teach them things, and give them a better childhood (emotionally) than I had. (had fairly good success, 4 good kids, been no trouble, are good students, and good people, but I could have been a much better father, have visited some behavioural issues on them).<p>2. I would like to make a difference, to use whatever skills I have to facillitate resolution of human problems... (for example, I have worked out solutions to national health care, which generally recieve good reviews...basically I am a problem solving type person, and creative at solutions). (some success, have "published" several things on-line with good feedback).<p>3. I would like to write some books, fiction (sci-fi, historical novels) and non-fiction topics also. (not much done but lots of thinking, and some notes)<p>4. Would like to become more skilled at, and deploy solutions using computer resources. (all can do is fool around with em now, not enough time, but have a home network of 7 comps., and assorted stuff. plan to deploy a security monitoring system across a dsl (internet) line at the horse barn (about 2 miles away), to keep track of daughters horses, maybe I will post a webcam link here if anyone is curious).<p>5. Would probably have enjoyed being a psychologist, but life took other paths. Do want to become fairly knowledgeable about human behaviour, and have had moderate success I think.<p>6. Would like to become skilled at short term trading, been trying some last five months, have tripled my money so far, so maybe getting the hang of it. Although thinker will probably get it all, but that's ok, I just enjoy the challenge.<p>7. Like designing and inventing things...designed, engineered, and built the 3 story house we live in, and turned out pretty well. Would really like to "invent" stuff, have files full of ideas, and rough solutions, want to take something further, all the way to a finished product.<p>8. Want to establish a web based business, almost have it, will be a place that sells manipulative type puzzles. (ones you handle and figure out how to take apart). But oldest daughter dragging her heels on getting a site up...she is my computer resource (Industrial/operations engineering grad U of mich, and bach of fine arts U of Mich, a good combo for web page design, which she likes to do..). Other 2 currently in college are aerospace engine undergrads, maybe they can build me a plane (another dream, I do have a private pilots license).<p>9. Financial independence...(some above are kinda related to this), want to have enough resources and investments to not have any financial concerns, have made good progress there, via life skills, and hard work, but 4 kids (and sahm parenting choices) have slowed down the process...(I had no idea kids are so expensive). I am confident this goal will be reached in nect 5 years.<p>10. Want to gain a greater famililarity with astronomy. Have read alot, can identify 10 brightest stars, and an assortment of constellations. My um.... (I don't know what you'd call it, kinda a fun thingy) "goal" was to know enough about the structure of the universe to always be able to find my way back to earth if I somehow ended up um..... elsewhere. Ok, I grew up on science fiction under the bedcovers when I was suppose to be sleeping, and paperbacks hidden in the english textbook when I was suppose to be paying attention. Near as I can tell only quasars fill the bill, they all have unique signatures, and can apparently be seen from anywhere in the universe, so make kind of a roadmap of sorts....one I have no idea how to read, but is fun to think about.<p>11. I would also like to travel in space, but that is not likely. My #2 daughter plans to crew a spacecraft she helps design to travel to mars. She is on the first leg of this journey, studying aerospace/astronautical engineering at U of mich, and is very determined.<p>Anyways, don't usually talk about such things much, but since you asked, there you are, covers most of my stuff, how about you? What does wifty want?

Thinker,<p>Just wanted to let you know a little of what you may be in for when you file for divorce...It may be similar to my situation...<p>When my husband moved out, he sounded a lot like SNL, pretty much was the one that called the shots, wanted full control of what would be done and how, don't want you to do this, can't do that...<p>Well, I think the losing control made him go into deep depression, I don't think he realized just how much he controlled what I did, and once the decision was made that we divorce, I did what I wanted to do...<p>My stbx even came up with the same solution SNL is coming up with, us just living together but separated and kind of as roommates... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, I slowly learned more and more about boundaries and not doing the things I didn't want to do, or doing the things I wanted too. <p>He still tried to get me to take care of personal things such as filling out his insurance forms, or the kids insurance forms, which was spelled out as his responsibility in our papers. <p>He didn't want me changing the utilities and phone bill in my name...<p>I gave up control of the things I no longer were responsible for, and took control of the things I was responsible for.<p>Honestly though, I think he almost lost it mentally over losing control. Control freaks can't stand this...They often don't see just how much control they have when their wives also submitted to what they wanted before.<p>He would say, "No way, you are not allowed to do this..." Call his attorney...the attorney would say, "Oh yes she is." and it got to him major.<p>He thought the judge would allow him to live in the house until the divorce was final....Didn't happen...<p>His lawyer told him "I'll get the house..." <p>He had a major reality check. Almost too major.<p>I have to say, I hated seeing him become totally devastated by it all, but at the same time, I felt sorry for him, but it didn't sway my decisions, because now I have to take care of me...<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>What does wifty want?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>For some reason, I am reminded of Babylon 5. The Shadows kept asking "What do you want?" The Vorlons asked "Who are you?"<p>It is debatable which question is the more important...

anna, I think thinker needs to put you on retainer or something...I know you mean well, but I hope whatever happens thinker comes back and tells everyone I behaved myself quite well. Most of my practical concerns are economically rooted. maintaining two households (when the actual future is still uncertain, ie not divorced) is obviously an unecessary expense, if two people can behave like adults. But I understand for emotional reasons that can be too hard, for one, or both people...I am just not sure that has to be this way, and of course that is what I lobby against....there is nothing sinister or controlling about it. We are all controllers, it is what humans do, it is only toxic when it becomes a co-d, or diminishes ones self-worth. Otherwise it is more about incompatibility. There is plenty of control around here, and believe me thinker contributes her fair share. I am at my um..... worse, over money issues (not wasting it, and running the business efficiently), and security issues (keeping everyone safe)...but that is about it. Thinker pretty much does what she wants, comes and goes as she pleases, and exercises a fair amount of veto power financially...she is the more frugal, I am too, but am more compulsive, but I do listen to her much of the time. <p>Our issues aren't even really that much about the nuts and bolts of everday life, but are emotional issues. Ask her about her resistance to moving away from home (out of state) and leaveing her father....I had to leave without her, she put the marriage on the line if I took a job out of state...that was unacceptable, it was a good job opportunity and I had a family to take care of (we had been married 3 years, 1d). This was too much, so I left, told her to do whatever she needed to do.... she elected to come, but made it clear I would pay a price, and I did, and it took her 7 years, but in that time I finally gave up, and moved her back home, knowing sooner or later we were done, and figuring she might as well be home where she wanted to be, more than she wanted to be my wife....and I suppose it was kinda my last ditch effort to make her happy, it didn't work, she was still unhappy (with me) and never stopped telling me so. My faults are legion, and more than I could ever hope to change, and hers...well, we didn't talk about hers, not allowed...guess I am not a very good controller.

Have either of you too ever heard of the word FORGIVENESS?

Hi thinker,
I'm sorry your thread turned in a direction you didn't want it to. Your H has a way of raising questions and that encourages more questions. It seems, from his comments, and from reading your posts, that he emotionally divorced you years before the affair, due to your verbal abuse.<p>Not everything in life can be figured out. Most of the time, we have to just have faith and believe God. Plain and simple. Faith is soooo uncomplicated but oftentimes the human need to figure things out only confuses us more. And that wastes even MORE time.<p>According to snl, having invested 24 years of his life seems to mean something, but not enough to have worked on preventing the affair. I know, it's neither here nor there. Now that it is in the past, there is a difference between giving your 100% to fixing the marriage or just trying to figure something out so long and hard until your brain just gets tied in a knot. Some things we can never have all figured out. We just have to do the right thing and have faith.<p>Even if you did figure it all out SNL, you can't change yourself--we have to submit ourselves to the Creator, and allow Him to change us, in HIS timing. Getting back to faith, which means trust, which means not having all the answers... It's that simple.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>
It is correct I do not want this marriage, that has been true for some time, even before the affair, I just did not know what to do about it, having been thoroughly indoctrinated in Christian dogma like many of you. What thinker and I are doing is exploring remarrying...a new marriage. I consider the particular status of the "paper" (our legal status) as irrelevant to this process, paper does not make you married (or divorced) your heart and mind do. Many married people are not married at all, just have a legal contract.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The bible is written on paper, does that make its truths irrelevant? Yes, it's not the piece of paper that is relevant, per se, it's according to one's values. A 20 dollar bill is also a piece of paper...<p>SNL says that he has been indoctrinated and has a lot of loyalty to God's Word which prevents him from filing for a divorce, however, I believe you have been long divorced--as he stated--even before his affair.<p>However he tries to justify it, the affair was an act of violence toward you. I really believe that. Since he is aware of your emotional make-up, as he has stated repeatedly, he had to have known how this act would affect you.<p>It is interesting how his indoctrination did not prevent him from pursuing an OW? Just interesting. Doesn't need an answer.<p>And why are the reasons for not filing for divorce so convicting now when there IS NO FAITH in the marriage, what it stands for, what marriage means to God, or the original vows? I could be wrong, but that is what keeps coming out in SNL's posts--whether or not they are devil's advocate posts or rhetorical questions or sincere--who knows? We can only go by what is assigned to SNL's handle. So go figure???<p>So thinker I don't think that you would be the bad guy. Not even Harley could stay with his wife if there was an affair.<p>I believe if there was such conviction to the Christian indoctrination, there would never have been an affair, regardless of the state of the marriage. Someone who is very interested in pleasing God doesn't go out and have an affair.<p>When I slept with a MM, I was NOT trying to please God, but that is obvious... OR at least it should be.<p>So now that the damage is done, SNL says that his indoctrination is preventing him from divorce? Doesn't "fit"--this explanation here...<p>So back to my original point--we cannot hope to figure out the cause of every bad situation in our lives. We can only trust God for a brighter future, submit ourselves to Him and allow Him to change us. Faith means we don't have all the answers.<p>One time a while back, Lexxxy was having some troubles and I mentioned something about being one flesh. SNL was wondering how anybody is able to figure out when they are one flesh.<p>Well, this is how we know (in MY marriage) that we are one flesh, plain and simple... it's by faith:<p>Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.<p>We know we are one flesh because we have faith that God's Word is true when it says "they shall be one flesh." (i.e.,WHEN YOU GET MARRIED/SEXUAL UNION). Call it indoctrination, I call it faith in God's Word.<p>Since the divorce took place years ago (emotionally), what is holding you together? Biblical doctrines? Are you serious? I mean really... From what all I have read, it's NOT faith that is holding you together, it seems to me that what is holding you together is more along the lines of domestic, financial, and business-related issues.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>
cjack...Perhaps I missed it, but did you answer my earlier question? <p>Why don't you file for divorce?<p>snl...see above. I am trying to understand my circumstances well enough to make such a decision, are you implying I am taking too long? If so, where are the guidelines? This is a 24 year marriage that has been rough, the preivious "FIVE" years my w was adamant about my worthlessness and wanting a divorce...perhaps you should ask her why she didn't file? I kept expecting papers any time.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The story SNL gave of moving out of state is somewhat incorrect. When he moved out to the state first, the house was up for sale. We had a hard time selling the house, recession, and therefore had to rent. I said I would go, would try, but leaving my father was going to be difficult. I know my relationship with my dad was not healthy, but he is the only person in my life who never degraded me, never told me I was no good, never lied to me, was always there and told me things will get better, being an adult is tough, never hit me, never used foul language at me, never called me stupid, etc. My father, I believe, is a man from God. He was always fair, polite to his customers, never screamed, never found fault, he told the truth and expected the truth. <p>Anyways, we left, I had to stay back for a couple of weeks, cause our oldest (only had one child at the time) was going to be 2 shortly got quite ill. Needed to see pediatric Dr. quite often. I left, when SNL came back to get us, it was hard to see my father fade away from my eyes. I cried, and was upset. But I knew I had to be where my H was. I wanted to be where my H was, and didn't like the feeling I had of my father. I wished that my father and I were not so close, but I guess when one is trying to survive childhood, they latch onto the one that doesn't hurt them in any way. I latched onto my fathers kindness, and concern and love. I knew I was safe with my father, and he would never degrade me in any way.<p>When we got to Chicago, our little girl got burned at the hotel with a cup of very hot coffee. We took her to emergency, treatment was executed and H had the company fly our daughter and myself to Colorado, where we saw a pediatric burn Dr. there. SNL had to drive the rest of the way back, with a dog, and 2 cats in the car, and towing a small u-haul. I stayed with his father and step mom in Colorado, until SNL made it. It was a lonely time and I couldn't wait till SNL arrived.<p>We moved to Colorado, and with all the stress of moving, unpacking and trying to get organized, I came down with walking pneumonia. Was quite ill, and had little effort to do anything. Wonder if SNL remembers that. The Dr. said that I was totally wore down, and needed bed rest. <p>I enjoyed being in Colorado, but to be near his dad was not a treat. His dad is an alcoholic and he is so controlling. When our daughter and I stayed and waited for SNL, his dad would yell, throw things and his wife would tell him to calm down and behave. He would tell her where to shove it, and his drinking abuse got worse at night. It was nice when he finally went to bed. But anyways, being by his father was not good. I liked his wife, she seemed to be a good person. She ended up being the sole supporter of the family when SNL father lost his job. She was a school teacher, and SNL's father ended up being the one staying home and cooking and cleaning. I didn't want our daughter being around his father that much. He smelled of alcohol and just didn't trust that man.<p>SNL didn't tell you about moving out of Colorado, then we moved to Virginia. I said okay, and we moved there. I wanted to see my father as he was aging, but the need wasn't there like before. It was a concern that he was getting older, and my twin brother treated our father with no respect. I would of liked to be there for my father, like he was there for me. He was my comarade and I was his. Anyways, Virginia turned out to be too expensive, and we moved back to Michigan and his mother gave us 2 acres off the land she had so we could build a house. SNL did build a house of his liking, and it turned out pretty good. House not done, we have lived in it for 12 years now, but it is unique. This was a tough time, and I worked 2 jobs, nursing, and doing the business and taking care of the family, and helping to build the house. SNL did the same. We both are hard workers, SNL is a dreamer, and I am the more down to earth one. <p>As for forgiveness, SNL still to this day, says, the last 24 years of our marriage was etc.... SNL does not forgive, and says he doesn't hold grudges. Well he is holding this grudge of 24 years over my head. He states to me quite frequently the 24 years etc. Counselors told him to forget the past and move on, but SNL won't and makes himself nuts. But SNL is a controller and does what he wants to. <p>SNL didn't treat me special during our marriage. Didn't take me out on a date by ourselves, didn't want to get a babysitter. We always had the kids with us. During our marriage, we never went on a vacation without the kids until we went to Las Vegas about 10 years ago and that is it. SNL should of after the first child said he wanted a divorce. If he didn't love me at the alter, didn't think this marriage was worth doing, didn't find me to be his fitting, didn't find me to be his soulmate, didn't want this person in his life, and didn't want to wake up next to this person every morning, he should of left and divorced. <p>SNL does control, and has been quite mean to me. He still gets out of control not as often as 7-9 months ago, when we were cleaning up his office, which he says he likes me to help, he yelled at me about this and that. SNL LB's and doesn't even recognize that he is doing it. He doesn't realize how he demeans me, and just goes on. I am a human with great deep feelings, and a need to be loved too.<p>As for having a sexual affair and religion. I feel SNL does not have morals, and as you can see vows are a piece of paper to him. The same with the OW, she has had 2 for sure sexual affairs in her marriage, and vows are just a piece of paper to her too. I don't know where to go on this one with SNL, but it hurts, and gives you more evidence that he does not want to be here. Yes, SNL indoctrination didn't prevent him from pursuing the OW. I wonder what his grandmother is doing in her grave to see her grandson behave the way he did with the OW? SNL talks about being a christian, the OW supposedly was a christian too, but having a sexual affair is not christianity. She with 2 sexual affairs in her marriage and possibly a come on to a service man in her home, where is the christianity. That is where I posted on another thread, how many times does one ask for forgiveness with God. So I can have sex with anyone I want to, and ask God for forgiveness and go out the next day and do it over and ask for forgiveness, and this can go on for years. Am I a wrong person? Am I following the path that God wants us to be? Am I a christian in doing this? This is what upsets me, the OW and SNL says they are christians, but they didn't follow Gods path in their sexual actions. Especially the OW, already did this once, and like the counselors said, she knew exactly where she was going. She got the first guy a minister in a backroom of his church and did it there. She was the one who told my H that she wanted to go to a hotel during the day instead of going out to dinner. This woman irrates me so much, and SNL loves her. I don't know what kind of woman SNL needs or wants. This has destroyed my trust in him. He was with a woman who definitely knew where she wanted him and he didn't see anything wrong about having sex with her. This woman told SNL from day one she was not leaving her husband, will never divorce her husband, and SNL still had sex with her. Talk about lust, but SNL doesn't see it as lust, they were bonding. Bonding for what, no marriage in sight, no seeing each other anymore, have her fun and move on to the next one. THIS WAS LUST SNL!!!!! She controlled everything, and will do it again. She was committed to her marriage from day one, and she repeadedly told SNL she would not leave her H. So I guess she gets men on the side to have her sexual fun.<p>I hope SNL does the things listed, if that will make him happy, go for it SNL. I do love you, but I wish you would be honest with me. Bye.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: thinker ]</p>

dang wasn't finished and hit enter... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Will repost.<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
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Ask her about her resistance to moving away from home (out of state) and leaveing her father....I had to leave without her, she put the marriage on the line if I took a job out of state...that was unacceptable, it was a good job opportunity and I had a family to take care of (we had been married 3 years, 1d). This was too much, so I left, told her to do whatever she needed to do.... she elected to come, but made it clear I would pay a price, and I did, and it took her 7 years, but in that time I finally gave up, and moved her back home, knowing sooner or later we were done, and figuring she might as well be home where she wanted to be, more than she wanted to be my wife....and I suppose it was kinda my last ditch effort to make her happy, it didn't work, she was still unhappy (with me) and never stopped telling me so. My faults are legion, and more than I could ever hope to change, and hers...well, we didn't talk about hers, not allowed...guess I am not a very good controller.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL,<p>I think this is a good thing that you are talking about the things in the marriage that actually led to the distruction of your marriage. These are the things that can help resolve old hurts...<p>If you look at it with a new perspective, this may help you to not feel so betrayed by this. Here's another way to look at it.<p>It sounds like you think that Thinker loved her father and put her father above you. Have you ever considered this may not be true. Everyone has boundaries, she did not want to move to another state. She was trying to chose staying in the place she liked, staying close to family, over money. <p>Was it her putting the marriage in jeopardy, or you putting the marriage in jeopardy by saying "my way or the highway"?<p>Look at this way. You knew the love she had for her father, yet you chose to ignore her needs with her father and wanted her to put money first by moving her out of town. You threatened to leave her if she didn't come with you. Again, who's putting the marriage in jeopardy here?<p>You say "ask her about "the resistence" she had to you moving her out of state with you." SNL? That kind of sounds like, "me caveman, me boss, me say wife goes with me, wife must leave everything she has and obey! Sounds to me like, I am going to disregard your feelings, not find a way to stay since you love it here, uproot you from the life you know, just to make more money, and you will go or else...<p>You knew of her unhappiness with the choice, but said "Well, if you don't go with me I'm going anyway."<p>You knew she would be unhappy. She warned you she'd be unhappy, you warned her if she doesn't go you are going without her. Sounds like you guys both had issues with this...<p>You say "I had to leave without her, she put the marriage on the line"...No one can make you do that SNL. You chose to. It sounds to me like you put the marriage on the line.<p>Okay so now if you think about it this way. Was thinker so bad...<p>Thinker chose family and stability (not uprooting the family) to money. <p>SNL chose making more money over his family and chose to leave them.<p>Also, isn't your actions more trying to control others than her actions only setting her boundaries. Because she didn't force you to stay...but you were forced her to go to a place she couldn't possibly be happy at.<p>I know it doesn't sound like I'm validating your feelings, and really though, I do understand where you could be upset by this. However, if you strive to understand her point of view, this may help you not be so upset and feel betrayed by her decisions.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

anna, one can put any spin on anything. At the time I felt she was being dishonest with me (controlling) the subsequent years have not changed that, I know what her motivations were, and they were not "wifely". Nor was she concerned with how we could eat (I was laid off when career opportunity appeared), she only wanted one thing, not to be seperated from her father, any way you slice it, that is not cleaveing. Besides it was only 1200 mile, not the other side of the world, and I had family there. Anyways this is all ancient history, she has owned up to it, and knows it was wrong, and that she never cleaved to me, but always had these foo issues she was focused on....such is life, and life has consequences....for many years I felt betrayed, and very angry, eventually I got over it, and stopped trying to "insist" she love me,.....does any of this sound famililar to you bs's? But is was never right between us, just dutiful, and child-raising. And I don't blame her (I did at first), it is more my fault than anything, I knew better, but didn't listen to myself, and here we are.<p>Also it was not about caveman, it was survival, not only economic (which is important), but also the marriage....I wanted to get her away from her family, it was necessary for us to ever have a chance, much as you try to get your ws away from the op. Her focus was all screwed up, she essentially was in an ea with her father, and her mother seriously objected, it was a toxic triangle, compounded my the familial relationships. I didn't understand it well at the time, but I have good instincts, and knew something was terribly not right in her family, and I tried to get her away....well I succeeded in getting her physically away with the ultimatum, but I was unsuccessfyul emotionally....and our marriage went into permanent withdrawal...one neither I, or any of a myriad of counsellors was ever able to alter....I learned to live with it, what her boundaries were, what I had to do to avoid anger, and so we lived. No I was not passive, I resisted some, and contributed my share of lb'ing, not a matter of fault anna, it is just our reality...we never bonded, and now we try to unravel all this, and see if we can or not....but as you have observed it is not going well. As some have observed, things can be so screwed up people have to literally start over, seperation/divorce, to restore enough life/health to the individuals for them to ever sort it all out, and such may be the case for us.