So, I have definitely concluded that my H is verbally abusive, could become physically abusive if I stand up to him too much. I decided to move myself and the children in order to give him a chance to "grow up or blow up". EVERYONE who knows me thinks this is a good idea. I made plans, but am getting hung up on 2 things:<p>1. My parents, who have a great marriage, have been taking classes on being "marriage mentors", to help couples with problems. This has made them very optimistic and they really want me to keep trying. (I've been married 12 years).<p>2. I look around my beautiful house and am overwhelmed at the idea of trying to uproot myself and the kids from our home. The actual packing and moving, the emotional upheaval......will I regret this?<p>Sure wish I knew the right thing to do.<p>Anna

Go to the women's shelter and get some newsclippings from them about profiles of abusive men who eventually stalk and kill their wives. <p>Then tell your parents that because of what you are living with on the inside of your home that they can't see, you have reason to think that their daughter could become another statistic if she doesn't leave. Explain that while your husband is a dear man, he also has a problem that has led to your believing that you could be in danger if you stand up to the abuse, and you can no longer submit to abuse.<p>Normally, I'm not in favor of telling parents anything because if things DO change, they have a harder time forgiving the son or daughter-in-law than the spouse who reconciles.

Hello Annavon,
sorry to see that your between a rock and a hard place. Even though I know you know your husband and house better than us all. I was just curious what you consider verbal abuse,I ask because my wife said I verbally abused her by my comments such as "Would you like to share the cooking load?" she blows up..another day I say" Does that mini skirt have to be so revealing"?....another day I say "I don't think you should be buying Gangster Rap" [WS/W 38] its negative and destructive to the mind" it will have an affect on our kids"....So in her eyes this was consider verbal abuse because I spoke what I feel should be the standard in the house. But of course the WS's flip the story and lie to people saying he's verbally abusing me and they get feed back from Work Friends" not family" such as " Oh yea girl I would'nt stay with somebody like that" then off they go into LA, LA land and they were just empowered to pursue the lie they were believing all along.<p>The problem at the time was "I didnt know she at the beginning of the 1st of 11 EA's, she was NO longer interested in building a home being a wife/mother, her eyes where now focused on ME,ME,ME, forget everyone else. The biggest problem was her "Low self-esteem"...Those words I spoke only had to do with duties and moral values which WS's pitch when they become caught up in affairs.<p>Therefore please examine what is your husband saying thats so abusive or is there something you're doing thats sparking the fire in bubba. Sure leaving will shake him and make him examine himself, but things do backfire and don't always go as planned therefore GET THE FACTS before you make the move it will save you and your kids some major pain. Then if you have the facts you will be at peace and have no regrets about, ifa's, shoulda, coulda's......I believe you should not be de-humanised or treated like trash from nobody.

EC, verbal abuse is very misunderstood. The comments you say I would not consider abusive. The best way to understand verbal abuse is to read the book by Patricia Evans called The Verbally Abusive Relationship. I am buying a copy for every counselor and minister I know, as this is such a big problem.<p>But to explain my own situation, this is what I consider abusive:<p>*being told I don't deserve kindness because I am not submissive enough
*being subjected to being yelled at for 15 minutes by an angry redfaced man who is pounding his fists on the table because I objected to spending $5,000 on a one week family vacation
*being subjected to critical remarks about my body, clothing, friends, family, hobbies, housework, etc. up to 10 times a day.
*being told I cannot get a job because my place is in the home
*being told I can no longer attend the church we have gone to for 3 years, because he is angry with the pastor.
*being told that if I do go to that church he will hit me.
*being told everything that goes wrong is my fault.
I could go on and on......but wouldn't you consider this abusive?

A<p>I'm feeling the exact same way....the difference is I have no children. I also wonder how abusive relationship will get when I leave. It's scary. What if something just snaps? I think you've received some very good advice. Protect your children. If something happens to me because of my choice not to leave immediately, it's my problem, but you have to protect your children. I go from having an abusive, yelling, person who's throwing things one day to someone who professes great love the next. It's very unnerving. I don't believe anything I hear anymore, and I think you really need to tune it out also and go ahead with your plans. Some day we'll both have another nice home we love. Just keep thinking that a beautiful home is only beautiful if it's filled with love, peace, and tranquility.

Sad1....read the book I recommended, it will really clarify for you whether your relationship is abusive or not. I wish I had moved out and demanded he get counseling before we had children. Your life always gets more complicated, never easier, so take action now! If you want to "talk", my email is stampalot83@hotmail.com.<p>Anna

Annavon,
How much do your parents know about your marriage? Do they know about your prolonged period of celibacy? I know how much that kind of rejection hurts. I know how much it hurts to even talk about it, how embarassing it is. Even here in these forums, it's a problem that is rarely described. Even here in the midst of the most loving, caring, moral, upright, outstanding group of people you can find anywhere, you and I are outside the norm in suffering unwanted celibacy. <p>Since it is outside the norm, it's hard to find guidance on the issue. I'll tell you the same thing I told my H. It's not normal to be without a sex life. I said, H, when you took a vow to forsake all others, it wasn't supposed to include me. <p>I've reached the conclusion that wedding vows have been broken. He broke them. He shows no remorse, no concern, no compassion for me. There's only so much rejection a person can take. Patience may be a virtue, but in my case I think it's a fault. I've been celibate for nine years. <p>I think somewhere along the line, whatever marriage I once had ceased to exist. I think there's a difference between saving a marriage that's in trouble and trying to resurrect something that slipped away a long time ago. <p>I applaud your parents' successful marriage and their interest in mentoring. Would you be their "first case" so to speak? Do they know the depths of the dysfunction of your marriage?

I think they are finally catching on. I finally told them about the celibicy part....it was easier in an email! The other part of it is... if suddenly tonite he was interested...I no longer want him anyway. I can't find myself attracted to a man who is so emotionally cold. Even tho he is physically attractive and in good shape for his age...a little pudgy but that's ok, so am I!<p>I have noticed since I realized that he has no interest in a relationship, I have quit trying. I do the right things, i.e. housework, meals, cheerful conversation......but not to please him or get him to like me. I do them because I want to and I don't care about his response. I think he is sensing that I am no longer trying to get him to participate in the relationship and am emotionally on my own......he seems to be getting more irritable at me. Perhaps he will get tired of me and leave......that would be so much better for the kids than making them move out of their home and having to change schools right now. I am going to try to wait it out at least till June when school is done. My daughter is talking to the school counselor and that is helping her.<p>Anna<p>[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Annavon ]</p>

Just remember that it takes two to make a marriage work. Sometimes, even with our best intentions, we cannot make teh other person see the light.<p>Even the cousnelors at MB have suggested for spouses that have other addictions that the spouse with the addiction take care of that problem first, otherwise they aren't able to work on the marriage. <p>It sounds like your H needs some work to change himself before he'll be able to work on the marriage. K

A...<p>Thanks for the e-mail address. Only problem is that WS has access to the e-mail also. I'll send you one from my work computer, but I won't be able to correspond as much. It's better to communicate on here. <p>Did you check out N's on the Internet? I've been doing the same things you are. Going about my own life. Doing things that I want to do when I want to do them. This will throw an N offbalance and make them irritable. They realize they are not able to control or manipulate us and they don't like or understand it.<p>I'm at the crossroads as to whether I leave the marriage or not. Such conflicting feelings. Individual counseling has been the most helpful to me.<p>I'll send you an e-mail soon. Hang in there.

A...<p>Also wanted to let you know that if your H is an N, he will most likely not leave no matter how frustrated he gets. That's the hard part. I also felt that maybe if WS got sick enough of all of it, WS would just go. Counselor has told me that will not happen in all likelihood. Even if WS left, it would only be for a day or two.<p>Keep me posted.

My counselor helped me to see that my xh was verbally, emotionally and mentally abusive to me. I don't know why I didn't see it for what it was. 8+ years of this, one would think it would be noticed by me. My xh more or less made it seem to me that this was life and this was marriage and I accepted it 100%. My divorce was final 1/02. He left me and my children 8/01, found out later he had another woman. Don't know to this day how long that has been going on. My xh has alot of baggage from his past (emotional, mental and verbal abuse) and he has learned well. His love was conditional (if you love me you will do this), everything was my fault when we got into arguments, would get mad at me and not talk to me for days at a time, more or less kept me from my own family for much of the marriage......and on and on. The things he has said to me throughout our marriage and now even when I look back to when we were dating are so awful it still hurts terribly. I never ever thought it would ever turn physical and it never did while we were together. But, after he left there was one incident that scared me enough that in that instant I called the police. Nothing happened but that feeling I will never forget. It was then that I came to the realization that this was for the best, I deserved better and so did my children. My children suffered as much as I did and they are doing so much better just as I am since my xh left. I hate that it has come to this but I know deep in my heart that this was the best thing for all of us. <p>In verbally, mentally & emotionally abusive relationships there is always the possibilty that it can become physical. I am so thankful that I got out, even though it wasn't my choice to leave or get divorced. In the end, I didn't fight the divorce or beg him to come back. If you are afraid at all for any reason even one time or for a brief instant, get out. Get you and your children away. I am thankful that me and my children were not physically abused and I am thankful everyday were able to get away.<p>Kathy

Kathy,
thanks, I needed that today. My H bought Atlantis on the way home from work, was pleasant to me, is watching the movie with kids now. I think "why am I doing this? everything seems fine. I feel a little guilty for my planning" but I know tomorrow might not be fine, last night was not fine and next week might be horrible. So thanks for the reassurance.....I think I have a lead on a house, I need to follow through on it.<p>Anna

Hi Annavon,
Now that I'm finally separated, I check these forums less and less. I just want to encourage you to follow through with that housing lead. My H and your H seem to have quite a bit in common. My brain's a bit fuzzy right now. Did anyone give you a link to the passive aggressive site? There's a forum there too. I'll wager a guess that your H is PA. I feel certain mine is. <p>I know exactly how you feel when things are "peaceful" and you question the wisdom of uprooting your lifestyle. I figured out the formula for peace in my household, and honestly, there's not much in it for me beyond the house itself. My H is very ... absent. The house is peaceful as long as I expect nothing, ask for nothing, and stifle any complaints. He lives in a world of his own and he's becoming increasingly isolated now that he's in his mid-50s. It's like his need to feel safe is so strong, he can't let anyone near him. <p>I've put in 15 years of being available for him. I don't like to think of myself of giving things with "strings attached" but my goodness, in a marriage I think it's reasonable to expect some of the same in return. What really got my attention at the PA forums is stories from several women who have had life threatening emergencies. Their H's either refused to take them to the hospital, or did so begrudgingly. One woman's H poisoned their pet dog. I keep these stories in mind to keep myself from buckling. The depths of dysfunction can run mighty deep for some folks. Learning as much as you can about your H's behavior can enable you to make the best decision possible regarding your future.

lonesome heart, I found this statement interesting:<p>What really got my attention at the PA forums is stories from several women who have had life threatening emergencies. Their H's either refused to take them to the hospital, or did so begrudgingly.<p>My H gets very irritated at me for having diabetes. He doesn't like it that I spend time checking my blood sugars, taking shots, etc. Sometimes he yells at me as if its my fault (my Dr says it is aggravated by stress and weight...and I overeat when I am stressed...hmmm) I worry that if I passed out he might not take me to the hospital...so I taught the kids the warning signs and how to dial 911.

Hi Annavon,
I have good friends who are diabetics and my H has diabetes in his family history. His eyesight is getting really bad, but heck if I can get him to see an eye doctor, let alone a diabetes screen. Stress is hard on anyone's health, and it will be increasingly important for you to exercise the best self care possible. There was a free cookbook offer in November. It's called "Celebrity Chefs Across America: The Ingredients for Managing Diabetes." I think the number was (888) 844-8156. I intended to give it as a gift, but the recipes look so good I'm keeping it for myself. You might see if the offer's still available. There's a cocoa wafer stack with orange whip and raspberries on the front cover that looks absolutely gorgeous and yummy. <p>It's unconscionable that your H undermines your efforts to check your blood sugar. Have you read Boundaries in Marriage by Townsend and Cloud? I highly recommend it. You have an obligation to speak the truth, to set boundaries in a loving way that will protect you from behaviors you find hurtful. I'm no boundary guru myself, but you have a good opportunity here to set one. <p>Boundaries are not ultimatums or edicts. The only person you can control is yourself. You have diabetes. You have a need to monitor your blood sugar, and you are exercising self care and self respect when you attend this important task. You would think it's a no-brainer that your H would support you in this effort. I seem to have the best success when I state my preference (in a cool, calm, even voice) and then offer choices to my H. Your preference, for example, is managing your diabetes with proper diet and blood sugar monitoring. When you find his behavior unacceptable, you have an obligation to speak some truth and tell him. That's the point where I try to offer some alternatives. If the sight of blood makes him squeamish, for example, you can let him know your schedule for testing and give him the option of being somewhere else during that time. He can have the choice of giving you privacy during your routine, or offering an attitude of support if he wants to be in the same room. In either case, criticism of your self care efforts in your presence are off limits. He can tell the tree in the back yard how he doesn't like your blood sugar tests, but YOU don't want to hear it. The key is keeping the focus on you, stating your preference, stating your expectations, but NOT dictating to him. We ALL need good boundary skills. Whether your future with H is together or apart, any efforts dedicated to boundaries are rewarded tenfold.

Hi,<p>I haven't been able to log in for a while but I think all the advice is sound. <p>Have you considered asking him to leave? That way you would not uproot yourself and the children. You know him best and whether this would work or not. I have a friend who did this, she only allowed her husband to return home when he had fufilled some very basic and necessary demands. <p>I mentioned before that I was in a verbally abusive relationship (withholding sex, emotions, stonewalling, etc...he never screamed at me or namecalled, he just stopped communicating). One time I fell down a flight of stairs and seriously hurt my ankle, could not walk for days. He refused to take me to the hospital...another time I was bit by a cat when I was 9 months pregnant with our first child and again, he refused to take me to the hospital to have it checked out...I will never forget him telling me that if I was "stupid enough to be bit by an animal, I could drive myself to the hospital"...or telling me after I recovered from anesthesia after a second trimester miscarriage, that it was unfortunate I had to be hospitalized that day because he missed his firm's golf outing...<p>The abuse almost becomes physical at this point because it starts to undermine our health.<p>Good luck, I will keep you in my thoughts. This is an important step for you and one that your children need to see you make. You will teach them much about self-respect and self-esteem. What you husband is doing to you now is hurting them in ways you will not be able to see, until they themselves become adults and have relationships of their own.

Well, I found this phrase to be pretty funny:<p> If the sight of blood makes him squeamish, <p>Of course you don't know this, but this man thinks butchering a deer with a buck knife is an ART. What he doesn't like about my diabetes is that it costs money. HIS money. He doesn't mind so much when we have insurance, but since he rarely keeps a job more than 6 mo. we often don't have it.....I spend over $100 a month on insulin, syringes, test strips. That's not counting DR visits. Our income is enough to afford this, but he sees it as spending HIS money on things I wouldn't need if I lost weight...so he "motivates" me by berating and belittling my weight and getting angry about the money I spend on myself for medicine. I used to get so upset that I would overeat MORE, but I soon realized that was only hurting me and I decided to do the best I could to take care of myself so I would outlive him! However, that plan is taking too long, so I found a house. I am going to rent it Monday and then hope to move by midmonth. It's a little scary but I have support from every friend and family member I have.....and altho I don't plan to tell them yet, I think my H's family would agree too!<p>Anna