Hello, everyone. I've reached what I think is a pretty important crossroads in my life, and I'm hoping some of you can share your wisdom to help me decide what to do. This is my first post here, so first I'll give a little background about my situation. Sorry if this gets a little long-winded. I chose the username "be_positive" because my positive attitude has really helped me to get through the past year without losing sight of the many things I have to be thankful for.<p>My wife and I have been separated since August. I'm 30, and she's 28. We have been married for 5 years, and together for 9 years. I know of 3 affairs that she has had during that time, the last of which began in July, shortly before she told me she was going to move out. There's no doubt that we both contributed to the demise of the marriage. However, I tried very hard last year (with the help of a therapist, some books, some web sites, and many friends and family members) to figure out what my mistakes were and to improve my relationship skills. In the meantime, she did very little to work on her contributions to the marriage, and she eventually turned to an OM to make herself feel better. I feel like I really gave it my best shot, and that we could have made it work if she'd been willing to try.<p>One of our biggest issues was the subject of having children. We married with the intent that we would probably try to have children after about 5 years of marriage. During those 5 years she changed her mind and decided she no longer wants to go through a pregnancy. I really, really want children of my own, but I decided I was willing to sacrifice that opportunity to be with the love of my life.<p>Since she was the one who discarded me for an OM, I decided that she would have to be the one to make the first move toward reconciliation. I spent the rest of last year focusing on myself, my friends, and my family. I kept a positive attitude and continued to analyze myself and make improvements so that someday I'd have a successful relationship. She gave me no indications that she wanted to work things out, although she did wish to remain friends. I've been cordial and respectful toward her, but I haven't really embraced her friendship.<p>By the start of December, I had decided that I should move on with my life. I made up my mind to wait until after the holidays, then ask her to go with me to a mediator to work out the details of our divorce. I really thought this was the right thing to do, since I felt that I was making no progress toward my most important long-term goals, which are to build a loving family and make them the center of my life.<p>We met a few weeks ago, and I told her my decision, and the thought process I'd used to make that decision. However, I was blown away by how difficult the conversation was. I hadn't cried over her for months, but that night I used half a box of Kleenex! By the time she left, I'd told her that my first choice would still be to have her back, but that I just didn't see that as an option. Since that night, I can't stop thinking about her, and I'm now realizing that I'm still very much in love with her. The weird thing is that I lost so much respect for her over her EA/PA and all of the lies she told me. How can I be hopelessly in love with someone when I have no respect for her?<p>Anyway, 3 weeks have gone by and I haven't yet made the appointment with the mediator. I got an email from her the other day that said her therapist suggested she try to articulate what she needs/wants in a relationship in order to feel fulfilled (our marriage counselor had made a similar suggestion about a year ago, and she really wasn't able to do it). She took a stab at identifying some things that she would need in order to be happy in a relationship. I don't know why she would have sent me that message unless she's at least considering trying to work things out with me.<p>I guess I was really hoping she'd do a 180 and come back to me with a lot of remorse over what she'd done. Part of me wanted her to beg me to take her back. I also wanted her to completely cut the OM out of her life (she says they're still friends; I have a hard time believing they're not more than friends). At the least, I wanted a clear indicator that she's willing to fight for our marriage. I haven't seen any of these things, and I don't think I ever will. Maybe my expectations were too high, or maybe she's just not the right person for me.<p>Now here's my dilemma: logic tells me that I deserve better than her, and I can eventually find someone who appreciates me more than she ever has (and who would love to have my children); however, my heart tells me that I still love her more than anyone in the world. My head says "divorce her and move on with my life", but my heart says "don't ever give up on her-- she's the one".<p>I know I have to make this decision myself, but I'd love to hear from some forum members who have faced similar dilemmas. I'd be interested in knowing what decisions you've made, how you've made them, and how things have turned out. Please share your thoughts with me. Thanks, and have a great day.<p>BP

I am in the same situation now. We have been apart for about a month after an 8 1/2 year mariage. <p>I don't have any advise to give you, only support.

BP,<p>I have never really been in your situation, but I did have to make a similar decision many years ago concerning a fiancee. Before I offer you my opinion, I would like to point out somethings that might be of interest to you.<p>First, read the literature associated with this site. I think you will find it very enlightening. Second, with regard to her apologizing and making the first move. Harley points out that it is not uncommon for the one having the affair to NEVER apologize. This is true even if they come back. Second, if you read about plan A you will realize that usually it is the betrayed spouse (BS) that does most if not all of the intitial work on rebuilding a marriage.<p>Now let us address your question. You will have to decide, but if you think that a marriage should include children and she doesn't want to have children, I think it is probably time to move on. It is very hard to compromise on such an issue. The only one I can think of is if she simply doesn't want to be pregnant, then adoption is an option.<p>Given where you are and what you want of a marriage I think it would be unfair to your W to expect that she go there given she doesn't want children. <p>If she does come back to the marriage, OM must go as a friend. I would also like to mention the not wanting to have children may be connected to the affair. You haven't provided timing with respect to her affairs (I believe you said she has had several) and her deciding that she didn't want children.<p>She may view children as an extension of the marriage and so if she doesn't want the marriage then she doesn't want children.<p>Finally, I will say that you are in love with the woman you married, not the woman you are married to right now. If you separate this out then I think you will be more able to decide what you want to do. If you decide to stay with her there is the possibility of rebuilding your marriage. If you don't then you move on.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

charannelvr, thank you for your support. I'm so sorry that you are in the same situation. I offer you my support in return and I wish you the best of luck.<p>JL, thank you for your insight. I really appreciate some of the things you wrote, especially the part about me being in love with the woman I married, not the woman I'm currently married to.<p>I read almost all of the literature on this site last summer, and I'm re-reading it now. It is very enlightening, especially after spending the past 6 months on my own.<p>I agree that it would be unfair to expect her to have children, since she has indicated that she's unwilling to do so. She has expressed an interest in adoption, and I would be willing to consider it if we were to stabilize our relationship first.<p>As far as the timing of the affairs, the first happened while we were engaged and carrying on a long-distance relationship (we met in college and I graduated 3 years before her). I strongly suspected an A at the time, and I confronted her directly. She denied it and I trusted her. 3 years later (2 years into the marriage), she confessed the A. I was hurt badly, but forgave her. However, I never did regain full trust of her, since I continued to see warning signs. The next A was with a co-worker, and I again confronted her and she denied it. I brought up this co-worker during marriage counseling, and she denied an A to the counselor and I. Last summer, she confessed a brief A with the co-worker over a year ago. Finally, the 3rd A began in July and may still be happening.<p>I haven't yet replied to the email she sent me this week. I'm going to give it a little more thought, and I will probably ask her if her message was indeed intended as a baby step towards reconciliation.<p>Thanks again for your support and advice. This forum is wonderful, and I have gained a lot of respect for the people who post here.<p>BP

I understand what your going through to well, I tried for four years to get my husband to do anything to save our marriage or at least show he cared and he wouldn't, until I said I wanted to seperate, but it was too late by then, too much trust lost and I had no respect for him because of the things he had done to me and our family,my heart says I still love him and I always will thats why it hurts so much, but my head says I will never be happy, people don't change and you can't make someone love you,if I try to fix it or force it,I would just be me setting my self up for more pain. I had enough how about you ?

Be_postive:
I can't believe how similar our current situations are. When I read your post my jaw drop because it was me I was reading about. I have move out of my house in August just like you. I've known my wife for 8 years and been married 3 years. We have no children and just like you it was one of the determining factors to the my marriage failing. The only difference is that I decided not to have children because I felt our marriage wasn't strong enough. This destroyed my wife and she was very angry at me for taking away one of life greatest gifts. The reason I left in August was that I had a strong feeling that my wife was seeing someone else. She also denied it saying that they are just friends but, I know my wife and how she acts when she's interested in someone. Remember I was that person before so I know all the signs. Recently, because of therpy I've come to the understanding of where I made all my mistakes in my marriage. I was angry at my wife for not fulfilling my emotional needs and I shut her out. I was convinced that she needed to change and when she does I will be there. Well, two years went by and we just grew further apart because we just didn't understand what we both needed. We are currently in mediation and my heart and mind is in the same state as you are. I love my wife, I want to be with her more than life it self. However, she's changed and I only remember the women I married not the women she is now. And thats what scares me into thinking I needed to love the women she is now. The only problem is that she wants nothing to do with fixing our marriage. I told her that I now understand but, she saids its to late. If there is another man I can't compete against him because in her eyes he' done no wrong. He's got a clean slate and that situation looks better. I guess thats what everyone calls the fog. Your wife and mine can only look at us and think of the problems in our relationship. All the other guys come with no problems yet! My current state of mind is if my wife and I work on our marriage it would be great. However, if it doesn't I know the future will be OK. I have a lot to gain being without her but, at this point being with her is what I want. You have to be strong and let thing go the way they are. I've decided to keep fighting until the day I sign the papers because I believe it takes a lot of work to be happy in a marrage and I don't want the guilt that I gave up so easily. I gave up before and now realize that it was my mistake. Both you and your wife need to take responsibility in the mistakes you've made in order to move forward.
I wish you the best of luck and remember that someone out there is in the same boat.

Thank you so much for the replies I'm getting on this topic. This is exactly what I was hoping for-- some useful advice, and some support from people who have let me know that I'm not alone. I've definitely come to the right place!<p>Kimberly10, I'm so sorry to hear that your H waited until it was too late to show interest in repairing the marriage. I hope you find happiness in your new life without him. You're right, knowing that you still love your spouse but can't make the relationship work is what really hurts. I'd rather not love my W anymore! I'm not sure yet if I've reached the point where I've "had enough", as you put it. I guess that's the whole point of this thread-- to help me figure that out.<p>lostitall, your story is remarkably similar to mine. Thank you so much for your empathy, and I offer mine to you as well. You raise an interesting point about "competing" with an OM who has a clean slate. That's especially difficult when the WS seems to only remember the negative things about our time together. You said you have a lot to gain by being without her, but at this point being with her is what you want. That's exactly how I feel about my current situation.<p>I have a new question for everyone. All the literature and postings on this site seem to agree that contact with an OP must end in order for a marriage to heal after an A. Suppose my W tells me she does want to work on the marriage, but she's unwilling to stop contact with the OM? Do I give her an ultimatum? Do I go to Plan A? Or do I just give up on her altogether? Any suggestions?<p>Thanks again to all for your replies, and please have a great day.<p>BP

Be_positive:
I have to say that OP should be out of the picture. Its very important that your wife doesn't have OM as back up when a difficult situation occurs. Just remember that your marriage can be great but it will have its difficulties. Just think about it, lets say you and your wife disagree on something. In the back of her mind she might say, "OM would probably agree with me." She should never have that avenue available. I believe out of sight out of mind. In my mind I don't want to worry that she's still in contact with OM. Because that might take you away from concentrating on making your marriage better. The only thing that should be in your mind is how you and your wife can make each other lives better.