Seems like I am journeying from the EN and Infidelity forums over here for the first time.<p>W did not return last night from her late night work and then today stopped in briefly to take the children to the roller rink and then said she left something for me under my pillow. I went up to look and it was divorce papers. Nice place to put them!<p>Married May 19,1990
Almost 7 very wonderful years
The last two - a complete collapse.
The middle 2-3 a slow decline<p>Her papers sound very straight to the gut - claiming sufficient time for separation (it's been 8 months living in separate bedrooms) and exhausted attempts to reconcile (we have never seen a counselor together or made any attempts to work on our relationship). The papers want physical custody, me to pay for her attornee costs, maintainance, and child support.<p>Then she comes back and tells me the paper does not matter. We could just draft our own together and not use the ones she signed and were filed with the court clerk which tells me I have 7 days to respond. <p>So - by experience - "polling the audience" - should I go by what she wrote and signed or by what she says which she wants me to keep our son, her our daughter, share weekends with both (every other weekend), and work out everything amicably. Then perhaps even use her lawyer and make it clean and simple. <p>And she asked me please don't contest the separation and unable to seek reconciliation or else she would then have to present cause and then it gets ugly.<p>And she urges that by no means tell the children till there is a clear date - no sense upsetting their life right now - wait till after his birthday party (March 31). <p>Any comments from those who have been through this.<p>The problem is, I don't know if my love tank will ever empty. I see who she was, not what she has become - I see those traces when she shines - and I don't know how I could move past this . . . <p>~ Luc [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Luc<p>It seems that it is over and there must be someone out there waiting in the wings. I know it seems painful and I'm sure it is. But you will get past it. You must get a good attorny and respond to the papers. Did you want custody and if so is she a really bad mother?. Do you have any thing on her and do you want custody of your children. One thing is certain you must of seen this comming. Atleast she left it under your pillow. Mine had someone serve me in front of the children. I will get custody but it comes at a price. Protect yourself Now.

The WS always wants a quick and easy way out, but that is not reality.<p>I'd see an attorney pronto and don't agree to anything in the divorce papers if they are not true. Don't get railroaded, especially since it sounds like she's trying to keep secret the other life. Sometimes courts will order counseling.<p>You can do this amicably - although any protest by you will elicit lots of angry feelings by WW, but stay strong! <p>Divorce is never painless, although the WS's are so in fog that they're the only ones who seem to feel no pain.<p>There are better and worse times to tell the kids. Around birthdays are usually not good because the child is reminded of the divorce everytime the birthday roles around.<p>However, I wouldn't tell them until things are more final. Then you will need to get some good books and maybe a child counselor to help you figure out the bast way to tell them.<p>The WS will fuss at all of this but remember - you need to protect yourself(so stand up and do what you know is right), and you need to protect the kids. You're the one thinking clearly here.<p>Keep strong. K

Some good advice would be to get your own attorney who will advocate for you. I would not use her attorney for any reason.<p>Let the attorney guide you; ugliness during divorce is sometimes unavoidable...it does not have to be you who initiates it but when the WS does not get what they want, they use whatever means at their disposal to get it... She will most likely be very unhappy when you refuse to play by her rules.<p>As for your love bank, it may never run out...it has been 1 1/2 years for me post divorce, nearly 3 years seperated. We are barely on speaking terms (his choice) and still I have a deep love for him in spite of what has happened. The pain is not so raw now, but it still aches and I grieve for what should have been. That is what differentiates us from them: we dwell on the good, the possible...<p>As for the children, I agree it is not a good idea to tell them around a special event, like a birthday. Wait until things are settling down and you have a fair idea of how things will all play out. The last thing children need is a roller coaster ride...<p>Above all else, take the high road, be dignified and rmember that no matter what, she was once your bride and is still the mother of your children. Don't live to regret anything that can not be undone or unsaid. Be a good daddy for your children, you need to be their anchor right now.

she left something for me under my pillow. I went up to look and it was divorce papers
Don't do anything. You have to be served or sign a waiver of service. As long as you don't reply to them, the divorce cannot get started. (I'm not a lawyer, but this is true in most states. Ask a lawyer.)<p>I would at least bring the papers to a lawyer & see what they are all about - if what she is asking is reasonable.<p>But leave your wife in the dark about it. If she brings it up say, "what papers?"

Thanks for all your comments. I am slow at digesting everything. I don't want to show she is a bad mother - though she struggles with intense anger and vocal abuse and she claims she can't live with me or my son because our personalities kill her. In her papers she asks for both, but by phone and in person she wants something different and says the papers don't matter and we could just sit down and draw out our own - that she was just trying to get the whole thing started, because she did not believe I was capable of handling any discussion on Divorce.<p>March 31 (my son's bd) seems a long time away to wait. I feel the kids could find out before that by a friend - or wonder why she suddenly moved out (or I if she changes her mind and wants me out instead). My current counselor feels that I should tell them with her as soon as possible. That W is again trying to avoid dealing with issues and it has to be brought out. <p>I saw it coming but I still somehow thought she would come out of the fog. <p>~ Luc

WOAH- I don't understand the me our son, her our daughter. How old are these children? This seems kind of funny to me. What would be a reason for splitting up the kids. They don't need to get a divorce too. In fact as the sister that lived with Dad, I still wonder why my mom didn't want me but would take Sue, and Sue wonders why Dad took me but didn't want her. I am 32 and she is 25. This is something that might be easy for her to propose, so everybody is happy both of you have a kid and nobody complains, but man, this kind of thing is enough to make a kid a mental case for life. Trust me on this one please. If there is anything these children will need it will be each other. This will give them some sort of family stability. I guess this is a real emotional subject for me, but I just wonder what the motovation would be for this. If daughter is hers alone from another relationship or something like that, then it would make sense. You can't give a kid to someone who it doesn't belong to, but if these are both products of your 11 year marriage then these babies need to be together. But heck, I'm just a mental case anyway. Let me know if I am way off base, but if I'm not, take care of your babies K?
Elizabeth<p>I guess we were both typing at the same time, but I still don't totally get it. How old are the kids?<p>[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

Just for catching up - here is my first posting back in early december on Just Found Out Site. . .
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Thanks for sharing all of this. This is actually my first posting. I have been searching the different sites and reading the different postings - testing the water so to speak to see where it feels safe to step in. Your comments, besides hitting way too close to home, come from a sincere spirit that seems to be overcoming all temptation to anger or bitterness and to be determined to work relentlessly towards one end: reconciliation.A friend referred me to Surviving An Affair and this website. I read the book, am currently exisiting in a perpetual Plan A, but hesitant to proceed to plan B due to not wanting to disrupt the children's lives any more than it is. We live separate within the same house since May.Tonight I am at the computer reading your comments (which have been very helpful) because I can't sleep as my W is gone with a friend (who she keeps secret but insists is a girlfriend) to shop, go downtown, feel free to drink, and planning to stay at her friends over night. I'll have to go in late to work in the morning in order to help get the children ready and off to school. And just feel physically sick, so decided to visit this website.For her to have an OM seems so unreal to me. We have been married for 11 years - our first few years in full time Christian ministry. We were extrememly close for the first 7 years and then went through a series of moves and shifts in careers. My life was more like your wife's OM for those 7-8 years in terms of my FC, but have gone to more like your's in the last two years. Over the last two years she has had a series of severe health challenges yet every test was negative. In April, her doctors confided their belief that her problems were mental - severe depression. She then attributed that to me and combined with a trip she took with Friends to San Diego where all her symptoms were gone and she had fun for the first time in a long time - she decided the key to her health was separation.Then her dad died who she had a tumultous relationship with and she then dissapeared (again to California) for two weeks after that.Since then, she has found a job at a sports bar where she works till early mornings, cut all ties to our church and church friends, cut all real relationship with me, and has developed a new group of "girl" friends that she keeps completely secret, and a very different lifestyle that contradicts the values she has had since we met. We live separately in the same house sharing home duties and the children, but she pretty much comes and goes as she pleases. (She wants to move out with just our daughter but knows I am strongly against that). Once she made her decision in May - she has had no interest in seeking counseling or working on our marriage in any way. I have sought counseling and tried to identify all the LB's that I have committed and seek to change. For most days, I find solace in living a Plan A approach and trusting God to work in her life. But on nights like tonight I crash and find myself being very short with the children and struggling with a desire to just end the personal pain and rejection.I'm not sure I wrote what I meant to write or tied this more into what you wrote or the others who responded to you. There were many points in your story that I related to. I am very vulnerable right now in my EN - and working hard to keep within a men's groups - but my time outside of work is almost 100% with the children so that helps as she is mostly always gone when I am home due to her continual need to shop, visit friends in the evening, and work.I feel like I went on too long. This is my first attempt to post on this site or really any site.

<p><hr></blockquote>

I still don't get it, I guess this is really hitting home for me. If these children are both under 11, how could she have such conflicts with a small child's personality? I think that would speak more towards her than the child. Does your son have special needs that don't fit in with her new lifestyle? What would make her bar job appropriate for raising the daughter not the son? For some reason I really want to understand here.

Elizabeth,<p>I agree with you the children should be together. They are both ours and they are both wonderful. Almost everyone who knows them things the world of them. Even at work, I have constantly had people tell me how incridible my children are. Ok,I am a proud dad. But they are great kids and they had a great mom in their early years.<p>My son is 9, almost 10, and my daughter is 7. And they are best friends (at least when not in public). <p>My wife thinks my son looks and acts like me. She just goes insane at times over our personalities, and says she can't handle either of us. Actually she has improved this week. She took a Love Languages for children tapes of mine and some communication material I had from my counselor and am working on her relationship with our son. This is a good thing. She seems to be more open since she filed - suddenly able to carry on a real conversation and be somewhat personal. She seems hungry to improve her relationship with our son. She seems to have realized he needs quality time and physical touch which I give in plenty to him but she tends to give gifts which just doesn't cut it for him.<p>She is now moving towards splitting the week up between the two of us - especially since she basically works nights and early mornings from Thursday through Sunday.<p>Your thoughts?<p>~ Luc

Luc-<p>Sorry man. I'd vote for stalling as much as possible. Read sad dad story in the EN or GQII section. He has been able to stall pretty well. You need to take time to gather evidence of what your W has been doing and up to. Go and protect yourself but make sure that you find an attorney that believes in MB concepts first. Don't get someone that is just going to throw in the towel and try to reach a fast agreement. I'd say fight (oh, I hate that word right now) for custody and keeping the kids together. Do a web search on organizations that stand up for father's rights. I know the name of these organizations come up on this forum from time to time. I think Dr. Laura also identifies them. Again, sorry.<p>HoFS

Actually I have seen the splitting up the week thing done well with some friends. I am glad she is making an attempt to communicate with your son. As long as the kids know where they will be and what to expect it is a heck of a lot better than the split the kids down the middle thing. So you would take them after school on Thurs and keep them till Sun eve? or something like that? It sounds like a good idea to me. That way they won't get so exposed to the bar stuff, and you would get some quality time with them. <p>I have been thinking about your situation, thinking about how it was for Sue and I, and praying that you could figure something out that wouldn't split them up.<p>I wish we all didn't have to experience this stuff. And if it makes us mental, just think of what it does to our kids. <p>I hope your wife continues to reach out to your son, she sounds jealous of the relationship you have with him, and I wonder if the looking and acting like you explaination isn't just a cop out. <p>I would be careful of the dad's rights organizations, some of them are some pretty shady and creepy groups.... <p>I wish I knew what else to tell you...
E

We met together this morning and things went well. She seemed very open to all my suggestions. However tonight she called back more panicky and does not believe she can work any kind of budget alone without my supporting her. So we may be back to square one.<p>At times she almost seems willing to have both children. In a way she wants to do that so that she can be free to pursue what she wants in life (which she does not even know). But I think the driving concern for her is fear of the children rejecting her since she thinks everyone else in life already has.<p>~ Luc [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Whatever is decided should be in the best interest of the children. Maybe it is worth a consultation with a child psychologist. Children do best in stable environments with clear structures and limits, they need to know what to expect and that they are cared for and loved by the adults in their life. Joint physical custody (where the child spends time in both households) can work out well when the parents live in close proximity to each other and can cooperate (no, they don't have to be friends). I think it would be devastating to your children to be split up. They are losing their intact family and now they have to lose their sibling relationship as well? Also, what a rejection for your son that his mother doesn't want him. My sister is divorced and has joint physical custody of her 2 children with her X. The kids have drawn closer together and are truly glad they have each other. They have a very strong sibling bond and I think that having each other has greatly helped them through the divorce experience.

Sorry I don't understand why my post came out like that! very strange! hope you can decipher it

Oh now it's okay. It was showing as a long one inch wide column on my computer screen initially

Just a thought, how about you having primary physical placement? I know the money stuff is scary, I am there myself. But what if you were to take over responsibility for the children on a temporary basis without her paying support until she can figure herself out? I don't know what to say about her worrying the kids will reject her, maybe she needs to take some time and get it together.

Get attorney immediately and do not tell her, keep her in the dark, and go to or get in counseling if you are not... and get help and support...do not let her know about your support... play dumb.<p>HONEY

Hi Luc,<p>A few comments. First, the disclaimer, we never got to the actual divorce negotiation stage. After seeing a conventional counselor for about six months, my wife basically quit all attempts to work things out. The counselor advised that divorce seemed to be the only thing to do for us, and recommended that we go through a mediator for settlement. The mediator was also a counselor who specialized in child issues. Additionally, as the conventional counselor explained to me, the mediator would also explore the situation and make sure all attempts at reconciliation had been exhausted. Well the rest of the story is that I found MB at the same time, refused to divorce (and luckily wife thought she&#8217;d just wait me out until I gave up and was ready), and seventeen months of MB-coached Plan A and a D-day two months ago and we&#8217;re finally making progress on recovery. Not for the faint of heart. But also, if she had really pushed a divorce in Texas, I could not have stopped her.<p>At the end of the conventional counseling, I had thought that the thing to do, to make it easiest on everyone and end her apparent misery, was for us to divorce. Things were very civil then. We worked out a property split and custody and support issues even before the first mediator appointment was scheduled. We had decided on joint physical custody, whereby daughter would alternate living between wife and I. I started searching for a house in the same neighborhood so that school and daughter&#8217;s friends would not be an issue. In Texas there is no alimony, but there is child support. Property settlement is pretty simple: 50/50. So that child custody and the outrageous issue of child support did not cloud things (some of the court-determined support payments always seem outrageous to me compared to what it costs to raise my daughter, and I think THIS drives parents to each fight for custody), we settled on split expenses for school, activities, medical and insurance, college, car, etc., with day-to-day expenses just being covered by the person with physical custody at the time. My wife and I both have good jobs and income.<p>Now, when you start working out all of this, one thing becomes very apparent. Or at least it did to me. Even though wife and I were divorcing, we were still going to see each other a lot. You both still have children to raise, and unless you are going to abandon them and just send checks each month, there is no such thing as &#8220;free to go our separate ways&#8221; or "free to pursue what I want in life" until the children are off to college, or one parent decides to abandon them. <p>BTW, our counselor recommended not telling our daughter anything about what was happening until things looked like they were going to be final. She recommended that if we were going to separate while divorce proceedings were underway, that the spouse leaving the house should find a permanent place to live, set up daughter&#8217;s room, etc., before telling daughter (who was 7 yrs old at the time). She said &#8220;uncertainty&#8221; is a real concern that children have. &#8220;Where is daddy going to live, can I see him, is he going to be ok, will his house be as nice, will he suffer.&#8221; Telling them &#8220;mom and dad are getting a divorce&#8221; triggers a lot of things that they will need answers and assurance about. You need to have some details already worked out to reassure them. And stay away from traumatic announcements near birthdays and holidays. Also, no counselor or psychiatrist is going to recommend that you split up a brother and a sister during this age and time!<p>Luc wrote: [b]Her papers sound very straight to the gut - claiming sufficient time for separation (it's been 8 months living in separate bedrooms) and exhausted attempts to reconcile (we have never seen a counselor together or made any attempts to work on our relationship&#8230;&#8230;And she asked me please don't contest the separation and unable to seek reconciliation or else she would then have to present cause and then it gets ugly.[b]<p>Ok, so do you think living in separate bedrooms is the same as separation? I don&#8217;t think so, and neither do I believe the courts would. &#8220;Attempts to reconcile&#8221; almost always include some counseling. If you don&#8217;t agree to these lies, the court is not going to push through the divorce papers. <p>Luc, you&#8217;ve posted on other threads that you don&#8217;t want to divorce, and are following a Plan A to change yourself, and hope that she will eventually give some thought to reconciliation. I think you&#8217;re seeing some waffling from her now, as a result of your Plan A. From what you have said I also believe your wife is involved with OM. Luc, don&#8217;t fall into the trap of giving her everything she wants to show her how much you love her. This woman is not thinking straight. She&#8217;s addicted to OM; and the only thing she can think about now is being &#8220;free, starting life over, being her own person.&#8221; I know, I heard it all too. If nothing else, no woman in her right mind would advocate splitting a young son and daughter. Additionally, and I know this is not going to come across right, but with small children like this and joint custody (or even a father with frequent visitation), she is never going to be &#8220;free&#8221; of you until the children are off to college! Most settlements don&#8217;t allow the spouse to move to another state, nor another city.<p>Luc, do two things. First, I would call Steve Harley and get an appointment as soon as possible for advice on how to handle this. You also need some coaching on your Plan A. Steve will also give you some advice on how to protect yourself, but at the same time stall this process. The longer this drags on, the more reality gets invoked in her fantasy of life from here on. And the more work you can do on yourself/Plan A. If it appears that divorce is imminent, I would also recommend working through a mediator rather than a divorce attorney. Steve may have some thoughts on that two. That&#8217;s the second thing. If your wife really is open to &#8220;just writing your own papers&#8221;, then you could suggest to her that you both work with a mediator instead, one that will take the concerns of the children into account, be impartial to either of you, and have a clean, amicable settlement. I also believe that in situations where the husband and wife are working together toward this means, that the mediator is a lot cheaper than two divorce attorneys. If nothing else, the economics and child issues should motivate your wife to consider that.<p>Good luck, my friend.

Hi Luc,
Sure is icky to be on this board, isn't it??<p>I agree with a lot of what P is saying. Well, probably most. <p>Some other thoughts I had: about the terminology in the papers re separation and attempts at reconciliation, what is the law in your state?<p>In MN (where I was divorced) there is a thing called "No Fault Divorce". Either party can file and be awarded a D. The only way the other party can slow down the process is to dispute the settlement. <p>Also, in MN and I believe in WI it is illegal to waive child support.
P wrote:
So that child custody and the outrageous issue of child support did not cloud things (some of the
court-determined support payments always seem outrageous to me compared to what it costs to raise my
daughter,<p>This wouldn't fly here. There are mandated amounts based on the non-custodial parent's income. There is a cap but not being in that income bracket I wouldn't know what it is [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] .
Do some research on the laws in your state regarding this.<p>Also, when H separated from his first W in 1989, she was awarded temporary c/s and spousal maintenance during the time the final divorce was pending. And, the amounts were pretty hefty. <p>OTOH, when I left my 1st M, I got minimal c/s and no maintenance, so I guess it depends on the judge.<p>The best advice I can give you is to echo P's thoughts on calling Steve of Jenn ASAP. It is expensive, but my situation not withstanding, worthwhile. <p>Oh, the other thing that is available in MN is something called collaberative divorce (is that an oxymoron???) It's kind of a hybrid between mediation and a court battle. <p>I think there's an assoc. of collaborative attys that are trained as mediators. They and the two parties mediated the settlement and present it to the court for acceptance. <p>That was my hope for my D, but XH hired a big gun atty instead and I now owe something approaching $16,000 and still fighting over stuff. Ughhhhhhh.<p>Good luck, Luc. I still think you can beat this and get things back on track.<p>Hugs and blessings,<p>Cerri