Hello,<p>I know I haven't posted much here, but I sure hope I can get some advice for this question. My husband and I saw his friend and his lawyer today for our separation agreement. This is so hard!!! I read so many posts about affairs, and my posts on here hardly ever get replied to. I would like to hear from people that have been through something similar, just for some encouragement. My family and friends are great! But, only one friend has been through anything similar, and hers included an affair and another child from that, so once again she doesn't quiet understand.<p>Before the final straw, I had hope. Now, I have none. I have made my decision, I have to do what is best for me now. I sometimes feel like I am giving up, but then, he will say something when he calls me that confirms, he doesn't understand the problems we had before the violence, let alone the fear and distrust of anything he says now that he has been physically violent (he has been emotionally abusive for years). I feel bad for him, and hope he gets help, but I can't be that person, I can't take that chance.<p>Did I mention this is so hard!!!

Actually there are many of us here who have been through abusive relationships...<p>My advice would be to contact a local domestic violence shelter and get involved in a group..
and get into counseling for yourself..<p>Do a search here on MB for abuse threads and you will find many...

Hi, Yes I can relate to what you are going thru. There has been emotional abuse since i have know my stbx. I keep thinking that he will see what he has been doing, but he doesnt , he wont. I do not want to divorce and in the past have convinced myself that i could learn to live with his behavior. He is a good worker, family man, ect. How he treats me is not good,. The level of fear and control in our home was not good. So yes, i dread being divorced, but feel i cant live any other way.

(((Rosita))) I, too, thought I could just learn to live with it, but there comes a point where I just can't anymore. I pray you and your children will be well! Has he been abusive to the kids too?...and if so, what are you doing about custody, visitation, etc? <p>My abusive marriage (verbally, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, some physically, etc) of nearly 16 years is coming to an end...divorce papers coming on Monday. I'm sad he refuses to keep on with counseling and won't change. <p>My H is usually good to the kids, but under stress at times he can be verbally/emotionally abusive to them. I suppose I'll ask my attorney on Monday what to do about this.<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

(((((ljem)))))))<p>I'm coming out of an abusive marriage too. I posted at your other thread.

I, too, put up with emotional and verbal abuse for years. One awful evening it turned physical. There wasn't an affair; though when I decided I had had enough, I was accused of having one. Approx 90% of emotional and verbal abuse will turn physical if the victim tries to leave. The abuser has lost control...and so it turns physical. I am divorced...almost a year now and my ex still trys to control me. The restraining order I put in place 18 months ago is still in effect. It is the one thing that insures that he doesn't call me or come barging into my house. He still pushes the limit with it, but is a little more leery since he crossed the line so many times in the beginning, I had to call the police again.<p>Yes, it is hard. It isn't something you get over immediately either. Emotional abuse is something that happens gradually...most of us think that unless we are smacked around, it isn't domestic violence. Eventually, before you know what happened, your self-esteem starts to fade away. You start to actually beleive you are stupid, or are unworthy of affection, or unattractive. Instead of fighting back, you do anything you can to keep the peace. Instead of asking for a hand when you are overwhelmed, you don't because you don't want to hear how you nag all the time. You make excuses all the time for their behavior...they had a bad day, they are tired, etc. You go out of your way to be kind to them, you sacrifice what you like to do, what you like to watch on TV...your self is slowly disappearing. You are made to feel guilty if you want to go out with a friend or if you want your spouse to watch the kids for an hour or so. You must hear all about their day...but when you comment on your day...he is not interested and tells you so. In truth, no one has the right to abuse another. There is no excuse.<p>Abuse is all about control. It can happen to anyone whether they are rich, poor, educated, working or not working. One thing I learned through my ordeal is that I wanted so badly to have a good marriage, for my husband to treat me with love and respect. The few times he showed a tiny bit of love, I would convince myself that he was trying. It didn't happen. <p>People on these boards talk about the fog. A spouse being abused is in a fog as well. You can't see until you get out. <p>Hang in there. My separation/divorce was the most traumatic experience of my life. My ex did everything he could to make my life a living hell. He still is trying. He now tries using the kids to hurt me. That I won't tolerate because he isn't hurting me...he is and has hurt them with his addiction to control. Now, when he calls me to accuse me of being a bad mother, a bad person, or just calls me to hurl deragatory names, I hang up. I hear his voice and hang up. Eventually, he will see he isn't getting a rise out of me and will stop.<p>I have two boys and what is so damaging right now, is that they have picked up a lot of their dad's disrespectful traits. I blame myself for letting it go on so long. I am now dealing with two kids who think their father doesn't love them and somehow think I am responsible. They both are in counseling. I will do all I can to see that they grow up emotionally healthy. <p>Anyone who is a victim of abuse...whatever kind should get some kind of counseling. Take care of yourself, and realize that in most cases, abusers don't change. They can, but it takes a lot of work on their part. They have to want to, but if they don't see they are doing anything...oh well. If you are being blamed for everything...it's not them, it's you...you can pretty much count on that person not changing.<p>My heart goes out to you, but know that you are not alone. I did counseling myself prior to my divorce...I knew better; yet, here I am.

ljem, renae, and rosita:<p>I am right where you are too. I have been in an emotionally/verbally abusive relationship for 15 years--married for 13 years--and I just moved out last weekend. It sucks. It hurts. I'm lonely. I'm not in my house. There are so many parts of my heart that very much WANT to go back home and be married and be a happy family. The only problem is that I get beat up with his words when I am there! I am ignored and neglected and hurt, and I lose me. The happy marriage and family that I keep "hoping" for just is not really happening. It's an illusion.<p>I think that's the thing that makes it so hard for those of us who are getting out of an abusive relationship. In so many ways, we want a partner who will be loving, understanding and gentle--a mutual relationship that is good for BOTH people--and about half the time, our partners kind of ARE that way. That's their charming side...the honeymoon stage. During that charming period, we start to hope that maybe THIS time he'll stay this way and be nice to us. But invariably, the cycle just continues and he explodes again. We just tend to forget or excuse or justify the other side...the angry, spiteful, hateful, harmful side...the explosion stage.<p>I totally agree with ThornedRose's advice: call the domestic violence hotline in your area and get connected to a support group. It will do you a WORLD of good to sit in a room with 15 or 20 other women who have been through what you've been through. You don't have to PROVE to them that it's really happening...or PROVE that you're not crazy...or PROVE that you are not the one with the anger problem. They understand and can validate and acknowledge what you are feeling and going through. You will feel SO much better.<p>Meanwhile, just know that there are plenty of us out here who know just how you feel. <p>
CJ

Count me in. No physical affairs, some emotional affairs but they were NOT the reason for the separation/divorce.<p>I've posted a lot about emotional and physical abuse. There wasn't as much physical abuse in my marriage as I think my XH realized that the emotional abuse hurt much, much more ...<p>Anyway, you can search my member number and my old one (06497) and find my story. I think I am a success story. The only way my life could be better is if I didn't have ANY contact with my XH, but we have kids, so it isn't possible. As it stands, we have minimal contact and are NEVER alone together.

Thanks for putting in words what I've been thinking. "One thing I learned through my ordeal is that I wanted so badly to have a good marriage, for my husband to treat me with love and respect. The few times he showed a tiny bit of love, I would convince myself that he was trying. It didn't happen. "
The advice on this board has been helpful. The article on Emotional Abuse is dead on. My H is still trying to talk to all my friends to tell them that it's "my problem". Today he's with my mother telling her how much he wants it to work out. When can you believe them? Especially when you've no trust remaining. I've felt like a single parent for 4.5 years, and now he wants the kids 50% of the time. It's still a control issue. Before, he controlled me by not coming home to help out with them, now it's by taking them from me. It's sad to see him use them. My counselor believes it's over, but I need to go to marriage counseling with him to convince myself I've done all I can. So Sad. And I'll be lucky if I still have a job because I'm spending so much time on these boards.

I've posted 1 yr ago on Divorcing thread & again recently. I think I need to move here. All the above messages hit home to me. I am still in the darned Hoping stage half the time, othertimes angry enough to almost take action. <p>He had affair almost all last year. Denies PA, almost denies EA, thinks nothing wrong with "a working colleague". Oh, I later found out what kind of WORK they do together!! He filed Nov 01. Recently filed dismissal & came back ~ 3-4 weeks ago. Since then he has been mean and bossy and domineering, told me he didnt give a damn about my health, barely spoken a word to me & started sleeping on the floor & reverting back to the behaviour I suffered through all last year. He lived at home til he filed & I told him leave. He was only out of house 2 months.<p>I had the feeling he only came back to fight for house this time & make me sell it. He denied this but his actions said this to me. No affection, no kind words, refuses to do any activity with me, outside or at home, I never get more than yes or no answers and dirty looks and "WHY?" or none of my business remarks when I ask a question. etc. He told me I got more fat (I lost 30 lbs) etc. Just so vindictive & cruel & plays such manipulative games. I dont know how come I could never see it before. I was always trying to do more to make HIM happy, but he never was. And he bullied me into it. I too watched whatever HE was watching on tv for the sake of peace & quiet. I feel like a mistreated maid. And yet, here I am still at home with him. <p>But I have not signed the dismissal yet. So the original forms are still out there with the status date by judge coming up in a few weeks. SO I must decide by then. He originally was leaving me the house, but now has said several times that He only came back cause he felt sorry for me & this time he can refile & take the house. I dont want to sell it. I want to keep it & can afford the mortgage payments but cannot afford to buy him out. I keep hoping he'll 'snap out of it' & realize how he treats me & is punishing me. What kind of fool am I. What do I do, how do I as nike says "Just Do It" one way or another. I want to work on our marriage & even told him I want to forget he had affair. But he is acting like Mr. King, like I am so desperate & he can have me anytime he wants, but I am getting NOTHING from him, no emotions, no conversation, no activity. He refuses to sleep in the bedroom, but when hes asleep, he doesnt realize that at that time he reaches out to me for comfort, so there must still be SOME feeling there. It is SO HARD to just quit when there is a microscopic hope. I am so confused & upset & angry.<p>Ive been seeing a therapist since last July. Im on antidepressants, otherwise I would be shakiing & non functional & crying my eyes out 24 hrs a day. Lets keep this thread going, it hits so close to home for me. HappyMac, I think you need to go on the Lecture circuit with your experiences. You could do a presentation in front of college students in psychology or sociology or communications classes, or at certain churches or high schools etc. I think not enough young girls (or guys) recognize signs of trouble or things being wrong and how parnters should be treated. <p>I myself had a great childhood & there is no other history of abuse. Only that my family members died early and I am an only child, who was often lonely & too giving to others. Well, these days my giver is almost DEAD and I am feeling guilty for it!! WHY!!???

When I finally decided I had had enough, I felt 16 years of anger bubble to the surface. It frightened me. I was angry for all the time I spent trying, angry for the lousy way he treated me, and more than that, angry that he thought a few roses and a few nights of cooking dinner would make up for it. How about when I wanted flowers or was too tired or sick...it would have been nice to have someone care. I gave him a chance, but instead of treating me better, he got worse. He went through my personal things, read my journal and actually would check my milage on my car to see where I had gone. We did marriage counseling; afterall he swore, he wanted to save our marriage. I believed him, would go, and he would trash me. He wouldn't even let me talk half the time. <p>During our separation he literally slandered me to my family, my friends, and my children. If I were truly the silly creature, he painted me to be, I never would have survived his harsh words and even harsher behavior. <p>I still have nightmares about being back in that situation. I wake up in a cold sweat, sick to my stomach, and then I realize I'm okay.<p>My advice to anyone who is enduring an abusive spouse is to leave. If that person is serious about saving the marriage and himself, he will work at it. My ex refused to leave. He crossed the line too many times. He actually called my pastor, who was counseling me, and told him to tell me how wrong I was being. The pastor told me...he gave me his blessing on what I was doing.<p>I have never regretted the divorce. I would have never survived the marriage. My kids wouldn't have survivied. He never bothered with them while we were all together. He only wants them now when he knows we have plans.<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: HappyMac ]</p>

To everyone, how did you know when to call it quits? I'm in anger therapy, because its my fault of course, but I've learned the anger was just covering 5 years of neglect and sadness, so now when I cry, I'm crying for the past five years. H has been talking to my mom all afternoon, no doubt telling her how he wants things to work out. I'm afraid she'll believe his lies. Finding this board is great, but so depressing that none of us could recognize these signs. I'm a bright, professional with an MBA. What else have I missed? My H is currently living with his parents, but threatens to come back. I have nowhere to go.

(((Newly)))
In my case, I never had to call it quits. He is!!<p>From the time I bottomed out (depression) 4-5 yrs ago, I kept reading, growing and getting stronger....I started to "blow the whistle" on his controlling/abusive behaviors, told him the truth, and refused to tolerate it. <p>I kept pushing for the relationship to grow. He refused to read, hear tapes, kept quitting counselers, dropped me off alone at the door of Dr. Harley's seminar(GRRRR!!!), etc.! <p>When he got more physically abusive...I contacted the police, was ready to file an Order of Protection.<p>Finally, he cried and told me "You've changed, I can't change, let's do a cooperative divorce." HE's THE ONE WHO QUITS!!... he's giving me divorce papers on Monday. <p>Do I want divorce? NO!!! I told him, all I want and have ever wanted is a real marriage!!! I have stood strong to him on that fact to the very end!!.... <p>I'm struggling... I feel anger at times and frustration for all the work I've put into this and he can't or won't cooperate in us having a healthy marriage and family life!!! It'll be so hard for the girls!! I can look them in the eyes and tell them I've done everything I can do. It it is completely his choice now. The pastor said, there is a point where my responsibility ends and the rest is his. I'm really sad for him!! He will never know what we've missed!!!<p>I kept hoping he'd finally "get it"....
but he thinks I'm the one who will wake up after we part!! (all the blame is mine!!) [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

It is comforting to hear that others have very similar stories. Sad because so many of us have to deal with this abuse, but comforting cause it re inforces that it is not us. It is so true about being in a fog. The times when they are sweet it is so good. So you forgive, my stbx doesnt even ever have to ask for forgiveness. I usually say im sorry for " over reacting"
I did say it was over. He thinks i am beggin him to come back, cause i told him I dont want to be divorced. I file a tro and so now he said that was the final straw for him. That he wont take it from me anymore. So I guess he is quitting. Friends of mine are worried that I will get back with him. I have had 5 restraining orders and kept getting back together. I dont want to do that this time. He needs to get help, but he wont accept the responsibility of it. So now its time for me to accept that our " marriage" is over. I did all that I could. I addressed my issues. Im not finished correcting them, but i was working on things. I cant force him to take out the garbage if he doenst want to, i certainly cant force him to get help,.

I won't say that my marriage ended because of domestic violence, because it didn't. I was mentally, verbally and physically abused for 10 1/2 years by a man who was supposed to love me. If he hadn't had an affair and left me and our sons, I would still be in that mess.
Believe me when I tell you, taking back control of my life and living only for myself and my children was the hardest thing I've ever done. There was a period of several months after my ex left that I longed to have my old life back. I had grown comfortable in an unhappy existence and didn't know how to cope with anything but that. <p>BUT there is a brighter side. I have now been on my own SUCCESSFULLY for over 2 years and next Friday I will fly to Las Vegas and marry a totally wonderful man! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] To all of you just starting this process, it isn't easy but it is very possible to be completely happy again!<p>Mitzi [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks to all of you for responding!!!!! All of these things are exactly what I was feeling. I did for him, I made excuses for him, and I thought the good times meant there was hope. I have been accussed of having an affair so many times that when the times he has been in relationships with women that did not seem appropriate, it was just more proof to him that if I accused him, I must have really had an affair. I have dropped so many male friends and activities that I enjoyed, because he did not approve.<p>Of course now he is claiming he will change. I buried the times he was physically abusive before and told no body. I even convinced myself that they were just accidental, he is in martial arts, maybe he just forgot his own strength. It did not happen again for years, so I thought I was right. I consider myself a very intelligent and strong woman, and even with that past could not understand why women would stay with someone who does those things to them. Well, I turned into one of those women. I guess when he was physical with me again, those emotions I buried came back, and I realized it was not going to change, no matter how much he says he wants to change for me. He has to want to change for him, and he does not. This time was worse than the others, so next time if I stayed, would be worse. <p>The hardest thing is, making sure I am making this decision. When he talks sweet and like he wants to change, I get weak. But, that is what got me into this position to begin with. All my friends and family have told me that they have felt that he was wrong or controlling in the things they have seen of him, nobody wanted to hurt my feelings thought. And, nobody knew it would lead to this. <p>-cantletgo- you are so right about somebody teaching college students about this. I too am an only child and grandchild that came from a family with few serious problems. I heard and saw other people go through things, but who ever thought I was not strong enough to see it for myself? I am still young (I will be 30 this year), so I jumped right from college into living with him and then marriage. Better advice (because what young kid believes their parents know what is best for them?) from an outside source would be a great help for healthy marriages!<p>Thanks again.

When to call it quits:<p>Here's me - the big dork - waiting until [censored] throws a vaccum cleaner at me while my little one is hiding under the dining room table. Couple of county sheriff cars, a few had been here before. It was a lovely scene. Society pages here I come.<p>Hindsight is 20/20. But, I must confess to knowing what was happening, just not knowing how to stop it.<p>It would be so wonderful if women - young women were taught about all of the kinds of abuse. In an all girls high school I cannot remember ever being empowered. How sad.<p>Elizabeth

ljem,
I too am separated from an emotionally and verbally abusive H. Weekend #5 for me. It's difficult and exhausting, but it's better than being with him. When I fully realized that I must protect myself FROM him emotionally, I realized my spirit and soul would vanish forever if I stayed with him. That's not how a marriage should be. Physical violence is thankfully not part of my picture, but I did remove the firearm from our home as part of a safety plan. A shelter or a hotline can help you with a safety plan if you don't have one yet. <p>I benefitted tremendously from a year of marriage counselling too. He went with me for a few months and quit because he "felt like a whipping post." I can't win. Either I join him in the charade that everything's ok, or I'm an unreasonable, complaining b!#$% who's always raising the bar and who will never be satisfied with ALLL the things he does FOR ME. Thank goodness my counselor is knowledgeable in matters of verbal and emotional abuse, and passive aggression. She helped me realize that all my expectations of marriage are normal, rational, and healthy. what a relief! I feared counselling at first, worried that I would end up in a padded room. If the men in white suits come for either one of us, it will be my H. <p>Another nugget I learned from my C was a bit of "protocol" in the mental health field. There is only one time a person can be treated WITHOUT CONSENT for mental health. That happens when the person is a danger to himself or others. At all other times, the individual must seek and consent to treatment. It is absolutely essential for the patient to accept SOME responsibility for their own care. No one else can do it for them. I spent a year paving a path a mile wide for my H to get treatment at the veteran center for ptsd. He finally went there a couple of times. I believe it was a last ditch effort to change my mind about separation. I haven't heard another word about the center. I dont' think he stuck with it. And you know what? It's not my problem!! <p>It's up to him to exercise some measures of self care. I can't do it for him, as much as I'd like to. I know he can be so much more. I know he carries so much pain and anger around inside. When he stops treating me like his adversary and replaces that behavior with love, respect, nurturing, and cherishing, well, I'll reconsider. I'm not holding my breath. I don't feel like I'm quitting either. I feel like I love him too much to allow him to stay the way he is. Separating is the only viable option I could see. Yes, it's difficult, but difficult isn't all bad. I figure it this way... he will get worse before he gets better, if he gets better, and a counselor at the vet center said the amount of better isn't much. I still have hope that he WILL get better, but I'll be observing from a distance. Nothing short of separation ever seemed to get my H's attention.

I too have benefited from going to a counselor. It seems like i need constant reassurance that Im not crazy and that it is abuse. My stbx always told me that i was never happy with what he he did and that i was too demanding. I looked into that and made some changes in myself. I am glad that i did, because then it allowed me to see things differently. I am working on getting myself healthy. He is not.! I am also learning that although we are not living together he is continueing to verbally abuse and control. He is still telling me that i ruined our marriage and that its my fault. I need to limit my discussions with him, but i wind up feeling sorry for him. It is so helpful to read that you all have such similar circumstances. I dont say that i didnt contribute to some of the problems, but i am taking responsibility for it. Thats all we can do.

Why do women stay in these relationships? There are myrads of reasons..and I will list the most common here...<p>1. Fear - fear of reprisal for leaving--
past attempts may have been unsucessful
the threat to family or friends if they leave
Isolation from family and friends - they feel they have no support system if they do leave..<p>2. Children - feal they can not provide the basic support for their children--fear of leaving their children, or losing their children...<p>3. Ecomonics--often they lack skills, job opportunities, and money..she worries about how will she live, let alone how will she be able to support her children if she leaves...<p>4. Promises-- Frequently the remorseful partner begs forgiveness and promises to NEVER do this again..so she stays living on 'hope' that things will change THIS TIME...<p>5. Tradition- Society, throughout the years, has taught women to be passive, and accomodating--so she feels like a failure and is embarassed that her marriage didn't work..and with that..Religious convictions..about marriage..<p>6. Fear nobody will believe them because the abuser is such a loving person in front of every one else..
---<p>Leaving is a process...most battered women leave and return several times (5 to 7) times before they leave for good..or are killed..<p>
So going to a domestic violence shelter and getting information from them..even just calling them helps..they give needed support to victims of abuse..they can help you find a safe place to go and work to get you other help..but most importantly...they are a wonderful support group of women who are/or have been through what you are going through...so if nothing else..just call them..and get some information for yourself...and then decide what to do from there...