I really AM wallowing today. I'm feeling really sad today--kinda empty really. My H keeps telling me, "I wish you'd move home...I wish you'd move home..." but NOTHING has changed!! He is not enthusiastic about setting up a counseling appointment (and so, if he does, I'm thinking maybe it's because I nagged him), and he hasn't even admitted he's abusive to me! He hasn't chased me at all or acted like he wants me in his life because he loves me...and I know it's mostly a dream, but I wish he would act romantic and interested and loving and like we are dating!! He STILL works 12 to 16 hours a day, and in the 7 days I've been moved out, there have been two MAJOR heart-rending events: one Sunday afternoon and one all day and night Tuesday!!!!!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You know what really sucks?? HE is the one who had an affair and dumped me and the kids. I was FAITHFUL. He does not support me with all my pain from this affair and there are days when I wish I could just collapse in the security of a gentle man's arms. You know...like that song, "Someone to Watch Over Me." I have tried and tried to be a good wife and meet his needs and not love bust--all while he won't fill out the EN or LB questionnaire or tell me what they are or anything. I have had to guess for two years! I am SO SAD and tired!!! At the same time, I tried tell him my needs and be open with him and stuff, so he could meet my needs, but he's JUST NOT INTERESTED in meeting my needs at all. Even now, when I bring it up, he'll say, "Well, if you want all that stuff from me, what are you willing to do for me?" [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (teary-eyed) <p>I can not even tell you how much I wish he would take me in his arms and say, "It finally dawned on me. I HAVE been an abuser all these years...not you, not the kids, but ME. I need to stop it and I need to change it. And while I change, I have to be there for you when you need me. I have left you to the wolves so far, and now, I need to be the man that you need." WAAAAAAAHHH!!! <p>Where are all the knights in shining armour?? Where have all the cowboys gone? I'd settle for a gentlemanly cowboy. <p>
CJ<p>
P.S. If you read this, do not get angry and mean at me, or make threats. Instead, try to hear the PAIN and sadness that are in this post. I wish you would LET me be hurt and COMFORT me.

(( CJ ))<p>)) JC ((<p>( CJ )))))))))))))))))))))))))<p>((((((((((((((((((((((((( CJ )<p>((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))<p>Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers<p>
Coyboy BOB [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

((((CJ)))))
Yes it is very very very hard!!!!!! <p>My Controller/abuser H of over 15 yrs. dropped out of the last counseling with, "You've changed, I can't change, so let's divorce." Now on Monday I'll be getting the divorce papers in the morning and seeing my attorney in the afternoon to review things. We're planning for a "cooperative divorce" (avoid court hassles).<p>Your paragraph about your H recognizing and changing his abusive ways, BOY!! can I relate!!!... UGH!!! If only these men would do/say as you wrote, CJ!!! Well, they've made their choices, though, and we have to live with it, huh? WAAAAHHHH!! And the kids get the consequences too! (so sad!!!) <p>I've tried everything to make a real marriage out of this but the bottom line is, he has no clue what it is and only wants to control and abuse. Why would anyone settle for so much less than best?? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I pray that we can heal and create a beautiful life inspite of this hardship!! ((((CJ))))

Well, its only been what, 7 innings? give him a whole season. . . to see if he can recognize the problem . . . just because you that the ref didn't call it, doesn't mean he can just because you have called a time out. . .<p>time to pracdtice on yourself. . . . almost every word was about what you expect the opposing team to do in response to your plays. . . . you can't make other teams act the way you play your own game, and if you don't like the way they play protest the game! <p>you have also JUST STARTED taking care of CJ, don't expect miracles of change just because you have started. . . it doesn't work that way. . .<p>compassion is for people who put in galliant efforts to achieve goals. . . you deserve compassion, and we are here for that. . . however, he does not, and to expect change that he has never shown before is rather quite unrealistic. . . <p>now, i am advocating that you stand up for what you believe and want. . . nothing less. . . . and don't give in to unrealistic expectations. . . you have just started down this path, you have been down this path before, now you have to go FURTHER down the path. . . <p>and if he DOESN'T come around, is that your fault? I think not. . .the reason why he does show you respect is when you demand it of him. . . or you walk. . . . that is the only way. . . yeah, i tried your way also, try to fix and love and care, but one can only fix themselves. . .<p>time out for CJ, seventh inning stretch. . .
water break. . . half time.. . . .
technical fouled called against the other team. . . you get to shoot a basket alone. . . <p>sg

Honey, I feel for you. Take time to breathe though. It has only been 7 days. He hasn't even run out of underwear yet. <p>My wonderful Daddy has given me advice over and over through the years. It fits when I'm icky with Mom and SDad, when [censored] is acting up, and it is something hard to take, but oh so true.<p>You can't make someone love you.<p>As I was crying to him on the phone last night he reminded me that although he would always love me, there is no way in the world to make someone love you.<p>I am not saying your [censored] doesn't love you, but you need to let him figure this one out. It will take longer than 7 days, it will take longer than 7 weeks, and you still might be fighting this battle in 7 years. Have faith, what is to happen will. <p>I asked my Dad when this feeling would be gone. He and Mom have been divorced - gosh, just over 20 years. He said that although he has found happiness he still feels betrayed, and wonders why Mom couldn't love him. <p>Shi^. So much for words of encouragement Dad.<p>I guess my point is...
This will take time.<p>And the best part is...
You will make it.<p>Elizabeth

Hang in there!!! It has only been 17 days of separation for me, so I am not a fountain of good advice, but trust me I understand. <p>I have had those day dreams of my husband saying he realizes how hard I have been working at this relationship, and he is so sorry for the way he has abused me. Well, in the past 17 days he has started statements off with "you know you are not fat and ugly", or "I have no excuse for what I did to you that Tuesday." And then comes the "buts". You know... "but why did you have to do that to me, you know I don't like that." or "but I won't be able to tell everything at counciling if I think you are not going through with it." The list goes on and on. He has even started to go back to blaming his parents for the way he is acting now. So, I keep realizing the day dreams are a fantasy, if he would actually act the way I dream, we wouldn't have the abusive relationship we have.

(((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))<p>Sometimes you just have to wallow, don't you.<p>I wish I could make it easier for you. <p>You keep expecting spending energy on wishing your H would do this or do that. That's wasted energy - not a good thing. Spend it, instead, on working on you and taking care of you children.<p>Don't worry about what your H is going to do. That is giving him power over your life. You need all the power you can muster.<p>Instead, get ready for the move into the house and getting life back to normal for the three residents there. The three of you lived there for a while during your H's journey in the wilderness so this may be a good place for you now.<p>Have no expectations of your H. Just set goals for yourself. <p>Plan B might be very appropriate now. Your children are old enough that you don't have to see their father everytime he picks them up. You don't have to walk them to the door if you take them to the house where he is living. Stay away from the man to keep yourself safe. <p>Give him time. Like justthewife said, he hasn't even run out of underwear yet. Let the laundry pile up - and the dishes - and the work you've been doing for him.<p>Stay away and see what happens.<p>Read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson. And do a great Plan B. And take care of your children. And journal. <p>Spend your energy on that rather than on wishful thinking.<p>And remember, I love you. You are the best Lady-In-Waiting!!!!<p>((((((((((((((((((Lady CJ))))))))))))))))))<p>[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: cinderella ]</p>

Amen to everything cinderella said! <p>CJ, if you MUST spend time thinking about your H, how about limiting it to what he'll do when he runs out of clean underwear? <p>Will he:
a) actually do some laundry?
b) buy more underwear?
c) wear dirty underwear?
d) stop wearing underwear?<p>This exercise has a time limit of two minutes. Then tell yourself "IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM!" and get back to your own life.

Most regal highness, princess of my realm...would you please edit your post and remove the first name of my H? Although a lot of people know me and email me "privately", I'd like to maintain some degree of anonymity on this forum.<p>Thanks!!!<p>
Your humble servant, <p>CJ

'Tis done, my fair friend. Truly sorry for any discomfort. (((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))

I can truly understand your comment about wanting your husband to act loving and romantic and hold you in his arms and admit he is abusive. Forget it...I don't mean to sound harsh or uncaring. I've been where you are and it isn't going to happen. Someone who is abusive doesn't see themselves that way. Remember abusers need to feel that they are in control at all times. Of course, he wants you to move home...he has no control over what it is you are doing, but he's not going to ask you to come home and agree to your terms.<p>My ex told me loved me...he didn't want the divorce, but he didn't want to give an inch either. He was happy with the doormat; the woman who worked, cleaned, cooked, took care of the kids, arranged vacations, paid the bills, and played taxi driver in between. Romance was silly...he once told me, he already won me, so why did he have to bother with that stuff now. <p>Eventually, you will get sick of it. There are nice men out there...but you don't need one to survive. Lean on your family, your friends, yourself. When the time is right...it should be your choice to lean on a man you can trust. Romance is wonderful, but not when you have to beg for it. You shouldn't have to do that.<p>If your spouse wanted to save the marriage than he would do the simple things you have asked. How difficult is it to fill out an EN questionaire? If he is an abusive husband...he'll never do it.<p>[

Dearest regal princess, <p>Thank you for acknowledging my humble request, as it was only the lowliest of suggestions. There was never any discomfort or uneasiness, because of course I was receiving wisdom and love from my most royal highness, which I appreciate immeasurably and treasure as the precious gift that it is. <p>heehee [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>*****<p>Just so you all know, it was a good weekend. There was a baseball team meeting and getting uniforms for my daughter (she's in Little League), there were some video games and emailing and computer stuff for my son, and my H and I spent some time together without incident. YAY. <p>I was very encouraged by a couple of things. First, I was encouraged to find out that he seems to understand what I am talking about. Using his own terms, he's at step two of the Jimmy Buffet theory: #1: "It's her own d*mn fault" #2: "Hey, it could be my fault" and #3:"It's my own d*mn fault." Okay--that's progress...it's improvement. Not hopeless. Second, one of my biggest concerns was that he would just "give up" and take the easy way out, and so far I would have to say he hasn't. It not a FAST movement forward, but it is movement in a positive direction. Third, during the weekend, we had a few occasions to use POJA, and guess what?? It works! And it works well! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So...all-in-all, I feel not too bad today. It was a good weekend, and I got some MUCH NEEDED rest, and I'm taking good care of myself. <p>CJ

i dare post where i shouldn't but, to answer your question posed on the EN thread to the articles about emotinoal abuse. . .<p>there are solutions there, and the answer is the same as the answer that your counselor gave you:<p>set your boundaries and stick to them. . . that requires that your H gives you the respect that you have asked for, or you just walk away. . . .<p>the problem i see is that you have been treated disrespectfully for so long that asking for respect and following through is so foreign that you are having a hard time sticking with it. . . however, the respect you get at work is nearly the same. . . would you work for a boss that berates you constantly? i think not. . . <p>it goes the same with spouses. . . . <p>now you can't change your H's behavior, but you can change ours, which will in turn change his as long as you stick to the plan. . . turn and walk as soon as you get the EB.<p>the most interesting point i found in the articles about the borderline is that because they lack boundaries, from parents who refused to instill boundaries, (which your H does not have because he lost his dad very young) they will learn the boundaries from your boundaries, its teaching them from experience what they did not learn from their FOO. . . . <p>so set those boundaries, demand enough respect of yourself to put the marriage SECOND to your emotional survival. . .<p>You know, i think this put god first scenario is a bit out of whack. . . . the list should go something like this:<p>1) physical survival
2) emotional survival
3) family
4) capitalistic income to survive
5) religion<p>the logic is health, mental health or you are nearly dead; then family alternating between H and offspring as required, then work to afford basic needs such as shelter and food, then give your time to organized religion. . . <p>many here, and you included, tend to ignore some of the first couple of requirements in the name of religion, and the result is personal trauma, with the hope of redemption in the afterlife. . . <p>the problem is that many manipulators know how to prey on that, and realize that they have something going for them when people stay stuck in the name of religion. . . just look at the damage being done in the middle east in the name of religion. . . . what's the difference in sacrifing your physical and mental health with an abusive H for the sake of religion, and sacrificing your body in terrorism for the same goal?<p>sounds kinda backwards to me. . . . .<p>wiftty

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>You know, i think this put god first scenario is a bit out of whack. . . . the list should go something like this:<p>1) physical survival
2) emotional survival
3) family
4) capitalistic income to survive
5) religion<p>the logic is health, mental health or you are nearly dead; then family alternating between H and offspring as required, then work to afford basic needs such as shelter and food, then give your time to organized religion. . . <p>many here, and you included, tend to ignore some of the first couple of requirements in the name of religion, and the result is personal trauma, with the hope of redemption in the afterlife. . .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OK, wiftty, I too post as perhaps shouldn't, since I don't know where the "put god first scenario" you are addressing came from, and therefore I may lack sufficient context.<p>But, what does God have to do with organized religion? OK, indirectly, God does have something to do with organized religion, but here's the priority list I remember from a sermon I heard...well, I don't remember when, but it was more than two decades ago:<p>1. God
2. Spouse
3. Family
4. Work
5. Self<p>Notice something? Church, or religion, isn't even on the list. Because church and religion are only important insofar as they serve the other functions.<p>The odd thing is, I don't think this list is all that different from yours, wiftty. Personally, I would place emotional survival over physical survival, because I would rather die than become a person I hate. And God to me is critical to my emotional survival, since what He has revealed of Himself and the way to live life in harmony with His will and my own human nature (which is of His creation) is the clearest guide available to emotional health.<p>Neither emotional nor physical survival are entirely subsumed under the "Self" category either, since to adequately meet the needs of others I must maintain a certain level of functioning. On the other hand, I would willingly sacrifice my life for those I love, which means that my survival is not of greater priority than those loved ones to whom I am dedicated. (Note that this does not mean I would throw away my life at a loved one's behest; grant me at least the prerogative of exercising my own judgement. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Work encompasses both "capitalistic" pursuits and social pursuits, the latter of which may or may not occur under the aegis of a church or other religious institution. It involves placing myself in a community, and accepting and meeting responsibilities, through which I gain a sense of connection and fulfillment and self-respect.<p>The "Self" at the bottom of the hierarchy covers the things I do for my own personal pleasure. These can be good things, and their placement at the bottom does not mean that they should be considered unimportant. But they must be balanced appropriately with the more important matters.

Faithfulwife - I am a BS and my WH posts here too. I know how you feel. I have been crying for the last 5 days, feeling low, taking drugs to function, WH got me anxiety drugs today from a Dr. he did a service call for. Illegal to do that, but I guess WH doesn't care about me, dope me up, so I will be out of WH way and the Dr. didn't seem to mind. He could lose his license. My WH did all the same crap, didn't want to work on marriage, said things that were really mean and all the same scenaro you have. Why do you want me to perform? WH told the Harleys, I can't get myself to do it, WH told me just a few days ago, do you know how hard it was for me to hold you, have meaningless sex with you. WS use emotional and verbal abuse to make you more distant. That is what my WH did, and he succeeded. He wants a divorce, always wanted the divorce, and he won. He will have to be the bad guy, since he already is known for his sexual affair, he will have to be the bad guy and do the next step. <p>We could set up a wallowing thread. Vent our feelings to each other. Reading your post, I was shaking my head, yep, yep, yep. Classic WS doesn't give a sh*t about his spouse. Doesn't care how much they hurt their spouse. IT is always, the WS saying, me,me,me,me,me,me!!!!!! They are selfish idiots, and they don't care about their wife/husband or family. <p>((((((((((((((HHUUGGSS)))))))))))))))))<p>I love hugs, WH won't give them to me on his own, he says he will perform. I got a lot tonight, from my mother, told her more about why I am so down. She doesn't know all yet, in due time. She just lost her husband, my father. And she is going through the grieving process, I can't go through the grieving process with all the stress my WH put on me. My mother is worried about me, but I had to go somewhere to get help. I drove around again, and called my mom on payphone, she finally said, you have got to tell me what is going on so she said come over. She also told me my brother is really concerned about me. He saw me tonight with my eyes swollen and red face. WH doesn't care about me. Sits at his computer to phylosophy with everyone here. He would rather be there on his computer than with his distressed paperwife. Life sucks*****!!!<p>Somehow we will get better, if we aren't drugged up too much. I feel like a zombie, no feelings, no care, no want to do anything like you. I just don't want to be drugged to the point I am dependent on this to live. WH is depressed, Steve said he is, and WH won't take anything, but goes and gets me drugs to wipe me out. Really cares???

I definitely feel for you. I am in a similar situation. When it comes to "working it out", why do I deserve to be cheated on? Why should I consider staying with someone like this? The most awful thing about what you (and I) are going through is the jerk begs for you back. Hasn't he caused you enough pain? You are better than that. I don't care if you do or don't have kids, why must you endure being cheated on when your peers have spouses that WANT to spend time with them. Your husband "works" too much because he wants to be the hell away from you. FACE IT! <p>I moved out in July. Prior to moving out of my marriage of 8 years, I received so much advice from all of my friends and all of his friends: learn to cook more, learn to play golf, dress sexier, here is a book I got for you on speed cleaning. And the strangest advice from my best friend: he is so stressed, so try to avoid stressing him out more, even if it means staying away from him. I endured years of crying, being left alone, praying that my H wasn't involved in a car accident that he wouldn't come home. He was always so depressed. As far as myself, he encouraged me to pursue a career as a doctor, and encouraged me to spend MORE time in the hospital. I kept myself in good shape, attractive. I tried to the best of my ability to get him attracted to me. He moved out to a "friend" for 2 months, and this "friend" had 2 simple rules: he was not allowed visitors, and was not allowed to use "his" phone. Obviously the friend was his girlfriend. I then found out just before I moved out that his relationship was on and off for 4 years. He went on numerous vacations with her. For example he went on a "fishing trip" for 2 wks where he "wasn't allowed" to use a cell phone and call me during that time. Guess what? I still love him. And he begs for me back often, except for when he's away on weekend excursions or dates during the week with this same girlfriend. Now do you agree w/ Dr Harleys advice? should I try to meet his needs and work it out because we both love eachother? I could never forgive myself if I did that. As far as wallowing in self pity, I do that very often. I have been dating someone which started out as friends about 8 months ago who I met on an internet dating service. He does everything right. He is also sexually appealing. He's been cheated on in the past and is the type of person who would never do such a thing. Could I ever go back to my creep of a husband just because we feel like soul mates? The answer is NO. Because I have to learn to love myself MORE than I love him. I want more for myself. <p>Sorry for my need to vent my own stuff. I do feel for you and wish that jerk husband of yours did not choose to be selfish and torture you by begging for you back. YOU DESERVE BETTER. I believe when you learn to love yourself more, you will love him less and not feel this attachment. I don't even know if it's love - it's just an attachment. <p>Good luck to you.

need a small clarification here, I know zippo about anxiety drugs, the doctor (who trusted me to be straight with him, cause have done work for him for years), gave me a small perscription for an anxiety drug my wife said she wanted the day before (and I assume is famililar with usuage of)...he told me to have her make an appointment for follow-up. I would prefer no one take drugs for situational depression related stuff (and I will not in my case), I think if at all possible one should work through this...but I fully understand the need many feel/have to do so, is not my call (except for me).....I do not drug my wife, or encourage her to use drugs, and I keep a close eye on her, and ask how she feels (often) when she is doing so.

I feel for you today Faithfulwife - it is so hard. I would love for you to cry on my shoulder. I would cry on yours. <p>I am going through physical therapy for knee surgery. have only a couple weeks left. I met this guy (Dave) and he saw me crying doing my exercises to regain strength in my L knee. We ocassionaly said a few words. Looks like he had some shoulder surgery. We talked and last week he asked if I would like to have coffee with him after physical therapy. I said yes, cause he was so caring, and showed sympathy towards me. I don't get that here, as my WH states here he doesn't give out sympathy, it is not his nature. Anyways, I told WH what I am doing after physical therapy. That morning I get up to go, WH tries to be nice, usually doesn't even bother to start my vehicle, but this day did, and has been the only day since. He said, are you really having coffee with this guy? I said, yes, and if you want I will have Dave call you? I told him it wasn't anything, just a caring man. I got my haircut that morning, did some other errands and went. Dave and I talked a little, we both went into dressing rooms to change and met outside in the foyer. I told him I can't go have coffee, I don't feel right, I am married but just a paperwife. He knows what I meant by that. Already talked a little about how it feels. The building is quite large, and there are soft chairs to sit all over the place. So he said do you want to sit here and talk, you don't have to. I have the time if you need to talk. He was so nice!!! We talked for about 1/2 hour. He told a 5 minute scenario of his situation, he said I am here to listen to you. Please tell me why you look so distressed and hurt. I told him as much as I could in the amount of time. I cried, told him that is why I didn't want to go to a coffee shop, I am so sick of crying. He held my hand, patted my hand, and said let the tears pour out. It is good to cry to get the hurt out. Told him how my WH said not to tell anyone about his physcial affair, I had to keep it inside of me for all this time. He was so nice, comforting, and I could feel the real concern through his touch. Anyways, he said I am not pursuing you, just very concerned. We left, and he asked if he could give me a caring hug. I said yes, I love hugs, WH won't give them to me. The HUG was wonderful a tight bear hug, and then he kissed the top of my head. He said this is a little extra to carry with you, to know that someone really cares how you feel, and know how much you hurt. He is a BS too. <p>So I am wallowing, because my WH sits here on the computer for hours phylosophizing with everyone here, and doesn't give a sh*t about me. He is dumping me, and burning the paperwife. Crying, and going to leave for now.<p>I don't know how to help you, I am on so many drugs now, WH got me some drugs from a DR. friend. Yeah, drug the wife so she can handle the business and clean house, wash clothes, make meals, etc. This was an illegal act on the DR. part. I have never seen this Dr. in my life. Doesn't know what herbs I am on or anything. But I took it Xanax for anxiety. Drug the stupid wife.