new thread - <p>gdp,<p>we each may be interpreting the survival differently. now my post was specifically tailored towards those that see martyrdom in living in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship in the name of god, or to be the best wife god wants, or because i will honor my vows i took before god. . . as an existance. . . i want to have a person who is being martyrdomed to think if this really is the best way in their god's eyes? or have they been sold a bill of goods by those that hijack religion? CJ has often stated that she desires to be the type of wife that god wants her to be. . . how long does that mean to stay in a PA or EA arrangement?<p>and of course your heard a sermon with god first. . . kind of would defeat the point of a religous gathering to put him last or to exclude him altogether. . . the politics (read organization) of religion would then fall apart. . .<p>1)physical survival is seeing that your body has enough food and exercise to survive, and gets medical attention when necessary. . . . without these two items, this condition will affect your emotional state. . . and then neither will be very well. . . your post sounds as though you are assuming your world, and not the physically abused world, where physical abuse can kill. . . and not taking care to physically survive will kill you faster than emotional abuse. . .<p>2) emotional abuse - no doubt, very insidious, varying degrees, can also make your life a living hell. . . EB can also destabilize you, and cause living dysfunctionality, and occassionally death. . . death to escape - it can be a form of brainwashing, and so Jim Jones's mass suicide in the name of religion, or his god is OK? i don't think so. . . EB and brainwashing for martyrdom? not in this society is it considered acceptable. .<p>3) Family - you assume one is married, that is why spouse is on your list. . .i left out spouse or alternated it because not everyone fits under this category. not everyone is married, not everyone has kids, not everyone has family nearby. therefore, you care for what family you have, whether married or not. . . whether kids or not, whether its your siblings or parents. . . . <p>4) income to exist in the capitalistic society. . . here you can debate, but god does not build houses or produce money orchards. . . we have to do the work to trade for money. . .
we have to do the work. . . . <p>5) religion, god, spirituality. . .ok, valid point, but then once you have the above, you can freely and in good frame of mind worship your god without distraction, without life pulling you down towards. . . because you have the capability to survive. . . how do others that don't have religion survive? how do buddhist survive? how do atheist survive? with the same logic as above. . . how do spiritual people survive? the same way as above. . . <p>what i detest about religion or god is that it can be abused when used to justify actions. . . especially bad, harmful, deadly actions. . . this includes self destructive actions. . . and i have read where CJ can keep herself in a selfdestructive relationship for the martyrdom effect. . . for the relgious and god intentions. . .<p>at this point, and as you have read, i draw the list as to where i think god or religion needs to be assigned in peoples lives. . .<p>wiftty

You raise some excellent points, religion is one of the biggest reasons I question my decision to get a disillusion. The 4 other things I can logically say, "Yeah, I can get through that", sometimes my heart is not in it, but I know that when I get past the turmoil I am in presently, my heart will be at ease. It is the religion thing that makes me question my acceptance of all of this. <p>I am catholic, and have been so crazy with things the past few weeks, that I have not had a chance to talk to a priest. I have looked up some info on belief.net for now, and feel that I will get an anullment when all is said and done. But I am so worried about what I am doing in God's eyes. I mean, I know he knows what is in my heart, but being a good Christian, am I giving up on my husband? Should I continue to sacrifice myself, so that I can help to save my husband in God's eyes? I do believe God would want me to do what is best for myself, and that would be respecting God. He may have even intended all of this to happen to make me stronger, and to make my husband finally see the light?

Great big Catholic here. I know this thread has nothing to do with me, but when I spoke to Fr. Bill a few months ago to tell him I filed for legal seperation and wanted his opinion on turning it into divorce, he read me the riot act.<p>It ain't what ya think folks.<p>How could I jeopordize my safety and the safety of my children? He was very disapointed that I would allow someone to treat me in such a disrespectful manner. He has been a huge support for me, and validates everything I have thought about emotional and physical abuse. Know what? He took it one step further. He considers the fact that H slept with someone else without protection physical abuse. I just thought he was an [censored], but Bill thinks it is truly abuse. He has a point too. Because I caught something from [censored], he harmed me physically. Physical abuse in a nutshell.<p>Fr. Bill is a pretty good guy. He thinks the wife God wants me to be is a wife to a man who respects me. God wants me to be safe. God wants me to protect my children. God wants me to use the judgement He gave me to make good choices. God wants me to know joy, He feels bad when I am in pain. <p>I believe women and men use that what God wants stuff as a crutch. Nothing about CJ with that comment, I didn't even know where there is an original thread here somewhere that may concern her. I think that she is doing her best, and is having a hell of a time trying to figure out what that is for her family. <p>Off the soapbox, on to the kitchen for some cereal.<p>Elizabeth

i don't doubt that everyone doesn't do their best, especially here, but could the best intentions be confused with a transference of responsibility from the self to god? that is ultimately the downfall of those that use religion to justify their actions. . . .<p>indeed, when that happens, when people transfer their responsibility of their actions to god or religion, then they absolve themselves of self responsibility, and therefore, they become victims of their own religion. . .<p>god is for the parts of your life that you can't control. . . what you can control, you are responsible for. . .<p>end of opinion<p>[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>my post was specifically tailored towards those that see martyrdom in living in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship in the name of god, or to be the best wife god wants, or because i will honor my vows i took before god. . . as an existance. . . i want to have a person who is being martyrdomed to think if this really is the best way in their god's eyes? or have they been sold a bill of goods by those that hijack religion?
...
what i detest about religion or god is that it can be abused when used to justify actions. . . especially bad, harmful, deadly actions. . . this includes self destructive actions. . .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I really don't know how to respond to this, wiftty. Personally, I have about as much faith in institutionalized religion as I have in the court system; which is to say, less than none. And yet, what I believe about God DOES inform and justify my actions. Can this practice be abused as you allege? Most definitely. But what authority cannot? Even "to thine own self be true" has frightful potential for self-destruction, considering our remarkable human ability for self-deception.<p>The "martyrdom" problem is a troubling one for me, since my own decision to remain true to my vows has been labeled as martyrdom. I don't see it that way myself, since I believe that my perspective is spiritually and psychologically and philosophically sound, and I am happy with who I am.<p>So while I am a great believer in the value of separation under certain circumstances, and while I believe that there are plenty of situations in which divorce is indicated, I am hesitant to claim that the appropriate response to emotional abuse is always to abandon the relationship.<p>One of the people I most respect, my (late) maternal grandfather, was subjected to frequent verbal abuse from his wife, who I believe suffered from rather severe depression. Should he have abandoned her? Shouldn't someone care for the mentally ill?<p>What I admired about my grandfather was not so much his faithfulness to my grandmother, but his quiet inner strength in the midst of a never-ending onslaught. He knew who he was, and in his own mind he was not a "victim".<p>Perhaps the way he handled the situation was not the best. I don't know. You can't help someone who refuses to be helped. And I am convinced that many times sticking around in an abusive environment serves no good purpose whatsoever. The dynamics of enabling behavior are well enough understood that there is no reason to recommend being a doormat. (My grandfather, incidentally, was not a doormat.)<p>All I am saying is that I don't believe in a legalistic one-size-fits-all prescription, regardless of where it comes from. I don't care whether it's a religious leader saying "He's your husband and you must submit to him no matter what" or whether it's a self-help guru saying "You should never let anything get in the way of the individualistic pursuit of your own self-interest."<p>I advocate understanding what you are doing, and why, and what the price tag is on one's various options. And I advocate recognizing that someone else's price tags may not read the same as mine.

Personally I think the issue comes down to fuzzy notions (by most of us) of what exactly marriage is supposed to be (much less what to do about it if that standard will not be achieved). In our "search" for solutions, some turn to a legalistic dependence on a principle (religious or otherwise), I think this is a grave error. Marriage is not a thing, or a goal, it is a dynamic process...and the standard of success is whether it enhances or detracts from the mental/emotional/psychological/physical well-being of either participant...both must benefit, if one (or neither) does from the arrangement, you adjust the nature of the relationship...(divorce usually if is a marriage, but people can craft places that are less than ideal, sort of a roomate thing...if both want that).<p>This makes makes marriage subject to measureable qualities. The difficulty is in defining the measurements, and educating people to apply and consider them....hence the great numbers of abusive, co-dependent type marriages.....clearly unhealthy to outside observers, yet foggy to participants who stumble along, sometimes for a lifetime....and oftimes using religion as their crutch for doing so. I think strong cases can me made that religion does not promote marriage at all cost, and that their are very clear standards of how it should feel and work, and if not succeeding end it.....or more likely, it is ended, or does not even exist, except as a legal entity, not a spiritual one.<p>GDP raised the issue of whether dysfunctional marriages can be likened to mental illness, and thereby extension a for better or worse issue...This comes up often, the notion that is just how my spouse is, they can't help it, I must love em anyways.... I find this a deficient argument, one does not become the designated caretaker for another simply cause of marriage....it depends of course, demential, alzheimers and such later in life is a sort of illness scenario...but personality disorders (and most so-called depression) I think is a horse of a different color...I do not think much (if any) obligation exists maritally, one can look to blood kin, or society at large to accomodate such things...I think all human beings are entitled to a mentally healthy marital experience, and can divorce if that is not the case....regardless of reasons why, each party has obligations to hold up their end of marriage in a functional, nurturing manner, and if that is not present, what is the point of the marriage at all? In addition, divorcing someone does not mean you hate them, or will shun them, you can still provide emotional interactions, and physical support.... you just are not trying to maintain an intimate bond with them (which wasn't present anyways). In addition, one can argue that most of these kinds of issues are essentially choices by the dysfunctional party, and if not, then one can argue they should not marry, cause they do not have the capacity to marry properly, and if they do (legally) the marriage should be annulled.<p>re your grandfather gdp, he made a choice, that only he can understand...it may have been a co-dependentcy, who knows....but I can't help but wonder when folks make such a sacrifice, if they are not doing the abuser a diservice....in that if they had ended it, the abuser may have been motivated to deal with their issues.