<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

An excellent post... for discussion.<p>I too am Catholic, Roman Catholic, and am in agreement with the concept of Free Will that you describe!...
...and yes (for you and probably for me as well) the idea that our spouses did not have the maturaty to make the commitment of the sacramental union of marriage.<p>But with Christian generosity...
...we cannot condemn our brothers and sisters... for failure to accept doctrinal principles.<p>We can inform them of the Catholic perspective...
Help others understand our biblical/scriptural basis of its teaching on marriage/divorce/remarriage...
But... with Christian love... show an understanding of the pain and suffering each BS (and often WSs too) goes through!<p>I've been around here for almost 3 years...
MBs does not condone lust(or any form of adultery)...
MSs does not deny FREE WILL... on the contrary... it brings it to light... and leads to scriptural defined consequences of continued sinful actions... for both Plan A and Plan B!
MBs does not destroy personal responsibility for one's actions... but seeks the Christian truth of rebuilding a sacramental marriage...by proclaiming the value of virtues....

1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness. (i.e. - marital charity)
2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important Emotional Needs. (i.e - the value of doing works in response to faith)
3. The Rule of Time: Take time to give your spouse undivided attention. (i.e. the one-fleshness of marriage)
4. The Rule of Honesty: Be totally open and honest with your spouse. (i.e. only the truth will set you free)

<p>MB is not incompatible with the Roman Catholic faith's precepts of marriage.<p>You are right in pointing out that there is not the explicit expression of "indisoluability"...
...nor of the openness to children...
...BUT...
the efforts here are being addressed first and foremost to focus on the saving of the marriage...
...and that... like the Catholic churches teaching on the presumption of a valid marriage (when starting an annulment)... is a good primary goal.<p>With Christian love and respect...
...to all who come to these forum...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

Great post! Thanks NSR. I needed to hear that - another Roman Catholic on the board. <p>I don't think that MB blames the BS for affair. I just htink it points out in human terms an explaination of why affairs happen. <p>Although some As happen even when the marriage is great, thus the James Dobson approach, obviously the WS believes that something caused them to leave the marriage and through Plan A, the WS learns that their reasons are no longer an issue because the BS no longer exhibits that behavior. It puts the burden of the failed relationship on the shoulders of the WS. <p>Humans are complicated, and although we would hope that things like a covenant with God would be enough to keep us on the straight and narrow, we have free will and Satan is always on the lookout for weak souls and an opportnity to break up families.<p>Just my 2 cents. K

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Being strong in your faith should not cause you to doubt (your defense) of the sanctity of marriage. The sancity (sacramentality) of marriage is a basic, sound and fully justifiable part of scripture, moral theology and Catholic Magesterial teaching.<p>MB's doesn't ask you to give up your beliefs...
...and if your spouse sees Plan A as a way of granting "tacit" approval for his adulterous actions... he really misses the point of Plan A!
Plan A... does not condone adultery...
Plan A... says to you... take the higher ground!
Plan A... says to you... do what is right and righteous!
Plan A... says to you... love your enemies (if the action of your spouse is an enemy to you and society in general)<p>For anyone to think that Plan A says...
...take the fault for your spouses infidelety...
...is missing the entirety of the goals/purposes of Plan A !
...in fact... it is a perversion of Plan A!
Don't take your spouses perverse interpretation... as a reason to condemn the overal MB principles.<p>The main goal of MB...
...contrary to the generally excepted goal...
...is to make you a better person... and in the most spiritual way!<p>We are rarely responsible for the sin's of others...
...but often do contribute... even if doing so unknowingly... to the incorrect judgement a person makes in deciding to sin. It doesn't mean that we, ourselves, are to take on the burden of the "free will" decision to sin!<p>We shouldn't let the judgment of others (OW's mom) take on the significance or value of truth they are claiming.<p>Only God knows the absolute truth...
...and depending more on His mercy than anything else... we rely on Him seeing into our hearts... and knowing our repentence as being adequate.<p>Leading a chaste life... is of the highest moral virtue! It is the coundation of "family"!<p>Stating a fact the "not meeting needs" contributes to concupiscence toward adultery...
...is NOT the same thing as condoning adultery!
Free will allows for adultery to be one avenue of rejecting your(I mean your spouse's) relationship with God!<p>MB principles do not condone adultery!
There is no one on this forum, in good conscience, who condones it!
Being "vulnerable" to temptation... is not to equate "lust" with "loving committed sex in marriage".<p>If you do a search on the forums of "what is love"...
...you'll know that those who care about marriage...
...will NOT equate "love" with "lust"...
...but just the opposite... love is a true "mutual self-giving"... a choice! (i.e. Plan A)!<p>I too have been to a secular pyschologist...
...and to take what most psychologists/pyschiatrists have to say seriously...
...I'd have to deny the existence of GOD!
Their cavalier... "do what makes you feel good" attitude... was most unloving... uncaring... and un-GODly!
Buy into the 50% responsibility... and you've bought into chaos... insanity... and secular narcissism. The work of the devil!<p>You (newstartj) don't offend me... in the least.
I'm so glad to see there are people (Catholic and others) who value the love of God above all else!<p>Joy...
Jesus - first
Others - second
Yourself - humbly as the servant to all <p>My prayers to you...<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Elizabeth, Roman Catholic, 32, Catholic grade school, high school, college even! Breastfeeding advocate, homeschooling mama!<p>I hear the pain your marriage has caused. I deeply understand your pain having experienced it and experiencing it today. <p>Sexual addiction is an illness, just like alcoholism and cancer. It is a devious, satin influenced, disgusting addiction. It can ruin lives, and can expose our unborn and nursing children to HIV among a list of others. My last round of tests has come back negative. I am not going to test my daughter until there is reason, if one of my tests come back positive. I have taken the antibiotics, gotten the injection in my hind end, and waited by the phone for test results more than once. <p>Our marriages, yours and mine, are the reason there is such a thing as annulment. These men have a defect of charecter which does not allow them to truly understand what the sacrement of marriage is. <p>You are doing the right thing in protecting yourself and your children. When I finally told our parish priest what was going on at home he read me the riot act. He wanted me to protect myself and my children, he explained to me that because of the defects in the marriage it was not sacremental and therefore I needed to "dump the bs, and take care of my kids."<p>It is unfortunate that so many clergy and pastoral counselors have no idea what exactly it is to be like in such a marriage. When they want us to take blame in some way, they are the ones that are wrong, not us. I am lucky to have a friend in Fr. B, that he can cut to the chase and tell me exactly what my first obligation is, to my children's safety. <p>I hope that your annullment is granted, and that you are able to find happiness in your life. You and your children deserve to be free from cruelty and this marriage was obviously cruel. <p>My confirmation name is Mary. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] My Christopher is preparing for Frist Communion. April 21! We are so excited. The poor kid is so nervous about his interview with Fr. that he walks around the house saying the Our Father.<p>Elizabeth

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Not to ignore the rest of your post..but the one thing that really got my attention is that he sex with a teenage babysitter!!<p>How old is this child?? And is he in jail for pedophile??? and if not..WHY NOT??<p>If you haven't been in contact w/ a local abuse shelter I'd recommend it..<p>And being a Christian, I am sad to say that even the Church it has it problems-- ie:<p>making women feel guilty about leaving an abusive relationship..<p>Marriage at any cost..<p>He's the man of the house..He can do what he pleases..and you will submit<p>Those are "church" teachings..not biblical..but legaistic points of view and perverting the Gospel..<p>God does give us a free will..and it's up to us to listen to HIS promptings on our heart..but we don't always do that..<p>if you get a chance read my post to Everlasting compassion<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</p>

newstartj <p>although i find some of your posts very black and white, i think shades of color would be more applicable here.<p>First, on the assumption that the man has a psych disorder, alot of these psych disorders are interrelated, and have alot of similarities. There are FOO (family of origin issues, and inherited, genertic issues.) but most importantly, with psych disorders, the nature of the disorder makes the person with the disorder, unaware of the disorder, they are one in the same.<p>FOO issues can often support the underlying disorder, and reinforce it, making the disorder even harder to face and resolve. . . . .<p>but religion, whatever one it may be, can and will do nothing about the disorder. Just because religion says the act should not be done, the psych cannot intellectualize the religious intention and overcome the mental being. . . . again, that is the nature of psych illnesses. . . <p>a psych disorder can sit and agree all day with principles, and then go and act in a way that is inconsistent with them due to the illness, because the illness overrides the intellect. . . . in very simple forms. . . . and to have enablers makes it very difficult to undue. . . .<p>your posts strike me as someone who doesn't or can't understand or resolve this issue intellectually about an INDIVIDUAL. . . . especially with the confusion of the religious aspects which won't apply anyway. . . . <p>good luck<p>wiftty

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

newstartj - Well said.<p>Dan

yes, He is responsible...but that doesn't mean he will take responsibility...there is a difference..<p>Abusers don't think they are accountable..but you know what..He is..and even if you don't think he will pay he will...maybe not in this life time..but in the Next he will..<p>Just like he can 'say' he's a Christian...just because he goes to church..but that doesn't make him a Christian..but that would show a change of heart--Because with true Christianity...there is a change of heart..God changes our 'want to'<p>Just like I can "say" I'm a doctor..(I'm not) but I could say that I am..but that doesn't make it true..it would require my actually going to school, and LEARNING the information..and putting it into practice to make it so...<p>A far as the medical billing goes...just put him down as the one responsible for the medical expenses..and put his office address as the place to send the bills..or his home address...if you send it to the office though his secretaries will see them..and will see his rages when he gets them..and you won't have to beg him at all..they will just go directly to him..

I've copied your post so I can make sure I get to all the questions. I'll answer the best I can, and hopefully if I miss something someone else will fill in.<p>
1. I am concerned about internet confidentiality. How can I keep my family's privacy secured? I am afraid someone will recognize me; I don't want my children to be harmed.<p>
Internet security is something to be concerned about, but there are several things you can do to try and minimize any consequences. If you are concerned someone will recognize you from your posts, try to keep things more general and give examples rather than specifics. Instead of stating the exact amount of the money due for medical expenses be a bit more general. Don't sign with your real name if you don't want anyone to know it, or put down where you live. I am not very concerned about someone recognizing me. I use my real name - Elizabeth, and people know the ages, sex, and names of my children. If anyone does recognize me they are either here because their own marriage is suffering, or because they are looking for me and would find me anyway. There is a thing such as internet preditors, just as there are sex offenders that live in your neighborhood. The best way to make sure that your children aren't hurt is to keep on protecting them as you have been. Don't let them alone in the house without an adult, tell them not to take candy from strangers, and tell them to follow the rules set for them by the school and their parents/sitters.<p>
2. How does one ask another particular person a question?...What if the person doesn't see the posted question?... Can I alert them somehow?<p>
If you would like to address a particular person or group of persons in a post you use the title to "call" them. For example "Divorced Catholics - annullment question" or "Justthewife - I'd like your input here" or "Vistitation schedules of babies - need help determining" Some people have their email address in their signature, some do not do off board correspondence. <p>
3. I've noticed several members with similar values as mine. How can I discuss with them? I don't want to give out my E-mail address.<p>You can get a web based email account. Go to hotmail.com or yahoo.com or mail.com and sign up for an anonymous account. You do not have to give your name or any personal information. They may ask your zip code, you don't have to tell the truth. You can keep that email strictly for MB correspondence. newstartj@yahoo or something like that. <p>
4. I like to debate intellectual and sexual ethics issues. How can I invite lively debate without seeming like I'm trying to prosyletize, coerce, or persuade others to change their mind? <p>This board seems to have a mind of it's own. You can invite debate, but make sure you are ready to take on all comers, even wayward spouses. This is an open forum and all are welcome to join in any thread here, so if you have an idea to throw into the ring, go right ahead. People will always think you are doing things you aren't, and there is no insurance for that one. If you have to apologize before you start, better not to begin. Other than that, just be respectful of the opinions you gather, and don't become too sensitive.<p>
5. I want to fully present my position. I want other people to fully present their position, too. Is this being too "strong" or overbearing?<p>If you people don't like what you have to say they don't have to read what you write. You also can't make people do what they don't want to do, so put your thoughts and questions out there and see what happens. I would try to be sensitive to the situations of others, there are some women who are in abusive situations here, and although they are trying to fix things, they may not have all the tools and supports in place to get up and leave the situation. Remember your compassion, and a dose of love and kindness in every post won't cost a dime.<p>
Technical questions...?<p>1. Why do I often get "Sorry... You're not logged in...." when trying to enter a post, and I was just logged in before...? <p>Because these computers think it is funny to make us crazy.<p>
2. Why can't I use the Tab key when typing a post?<p>See above.<p>
3. Why do my first editing corrections get erased on the second edit?<p>See above.<p>4. How can I save my post before it is posted. I have four kids needing attention. My web time is available in "time fragments", not "stretches of uninterrupted time".<p>If there is a particular post that I feel needs my undivided attention I wait until about 3 in the morning when I get up to check everyones covers, then I type my little heart out. Sometimes it is best to use your word processing program to get something the way you want it, then return and copy & past it as a reply.<p>5. How can I use my Windows spellchecker function on my posts? <p>See above.
_____________<p>My attorneys said all I have to do is send STBX a list of providers and expenses... I did that...not good enough disgusting W, he wants documentation.<p>
E: In your marital settlement agreement there is a section that describes the manner in which these claims are to be submitted to the other spouse. Do that, nothing more. He is not allowed to have a problem with it. If he does not pay - notify your family court commissoners office. That's all. Don't play his games, don't do his bidding. Tell him to kiss your butt. If your lawyer isn't cutting the mustard on this then may I respectfully suggest that you reiterate the importance of this subject, and take it to another lawyer.<p>I AM HIS WIFE; NOT HIS EMPLOYEE!<p>E: Actually honey, you are almost not even his wife anymore, and you can have my permission to remind him of this whenever he demands you do anything. No person (even MY mother) can demand anything of anyone. By xeroxing these things for him and resending and all that bs you are pandering to his little games. That is not what the court requires of you, do not do it. He has no control over you unless you give it to him. Period.<p>..waste $$ next day calling lawyer AGAIN to find out how to get controlling Daddy to pay for his own kid's health care. .... No answers, lawyer is plum run out...<p>
E: Your lawyer needs a kick in the hind end. I can come up with 3 things to do to get his butt in gear.
A. Contact the family court commissioners office.
B. Get court ordered mediation.
C. Get a new lawyer.<p>E: Just reminding you that - Abuse is IRRATIONAL & ILLOGICAL.<p>In the final analysis, since my attorney charges $325.00 per hour, I think I just broke even.<p>E: Your attorney is not doing his/her job. They do not "run out" of answers. Get a referral from the women's domestic violence group in your area for a lawyer that is a go getter specializing in jerks.<p>He actually abided by the court's legal directives for a change.<p>E: The next time he does not abide by the court's directives you need to call it to the attention of the court. If you do not, you are allowing him to treat you and the children unfairly. This one rests in your care. Don't let it slide. It sets a precident. If you try and go to court and say look what he's done now, and he has done all these things in the past, the court will say it is your fault for not calling it to the attention of the court earlier. Trust me on that one!<p>Don't suggest I send him the originals; he still hasn't sent back other important papers he stole from me. <p>E: Do only what the court requires. Do only what the court requires. Do only what the court requires. Anything else that you do for him is strictly from the kindness of your heart, and I think we both know how much he appreciates that.<p>BOY! I'm exhausted! Hope this covers everything. Anything else, just holler.

Elizabeth

Newstartj-<p>OK, one more thing. I have happened upon some of your posts and answers since you joined (hence my earlier comment on being more gentle towards abused women), and now I purposely looked some up, just for conversations sake.<p>I just read your back and forth with Mr. Hurt and others re: masturbation.<p>I gotta tell you honey you need to chill. Just for fun here, take this in the manner intended.<p>
Elizabeth posts to Newstartj:<p>
Your religon is YOUR religon. I do not come here to listen to YOUR views, nor will I respect YOUR opinions.<p>YOU are all wrong. That's right. YOU are wrong and I am RIGHT. GOD has told me this.<p>I decide where and when things are appropriate and moral, and to HELL with whatever suggestions anyone else has.<p>Everyone needs to listen up here, because what I say is RIGHT. I know how everything works, and I know ALL the answers.<p>
End of post. <p>
Newstartj becomes frightened and runs crying into the bathroom, feeling discouraged that a suggestion she made with the kindest of intent has been bashed into the ground and mashed even further into the ground like a child does to an ant. <p>
I respect your opinions, but they are just that, your opinions. You need to understand that this forum is for people all over the world and for people of all different religon, social standing, grasp of the English language, values, and morals. Nobody likes a know it all. Nobody likes anyone who is mean, and sorry, but sometimes you kind of come off mean. We are all here to learn from each other, and to take suggestions that work for us and implement them in our lives. If you try to "fix" everything that you find "wrong" here you are going to be one busy girl!<p>If you would allow me to, I would tell you how I might reply to Mr. Hurt's post regarding sex.<p>Dear Hurt,<p>I understand that sexual fufillment is something we as humans feel we need. I also understand that davepr has suggested masturbation, and I would like to give you some alternative suggestions.<p>I think masturbation is not appropriate, it is not what my church feels is behavior for a grown man. <p>May I suggest filling this need with other activities such as skiing, boating, fly fishing, crochet.....<p>I find that when I feel this need I am able to control these urges by... fly fishing, knitting...<p>Get the idea? Suggest why you might think an idea is not a-ok, do not say WRONG WRONG WRONG, cause TYPING IN CAPITALS IS YELLING. Suggest what you might give as an alternative, and then give something that has worked for you. <p>Don't get sucked into bible verse trading, you will run up against people who won't change no matter what you say so it really truly is a waste of your valuable time.<p>There are other sites that deal with marriage, parenting, and divorce issues that are soley of a Christian bias, I can give you those sites if you want, and there you won't run into people discussing masturbation as a viable alternative.<p>You need to keep in mind that on this forum you WILL run into ideas that do NOT mesh with your values. Just don't bother with them, go on to someone who will value and use your input.<p>Sometimes we discuss sexual fufillment on these boards. It is part of marriage and part of life. About 18 months ago some of the women (inculding me) were trading sex secrets here. We wanted ideas on keeping things hot where it was supposed to be - in the marriage bed - as opposed to the mistresses we were up against that seemed to have an endless bag of tricks.<p>I think that you will become a very valuable asset to the people here, but you just need to remember that if you keep dishing it out, you are going to get it and a half back. <p>Take a step back before you answer a post. I know some of the things can be "WOW I have to answer!" but step back and see if you are just talking to talk or if you truly believe that someone will gain insight from your remarks.<p>Whenever you feel really preachy and want to get down and dirty I have a site I can send you to that totally needs a voice of good ole Catholic reason. All you have to do is ask... please please ask!! <p>I bet everyone here knows where I will send you already! <p>They can use a kick in the butt.<p>Elizabeth

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

I thought you'd never ask.<p>Don't you dare use my name! Don't tell them anything personal or they will eat you for a snack. Then they will burp and laugh.<p>Click here to enter into a true den of iniquity.<p>Have fun, for some reason I think you are going to have a blast with these "women".

newstartj, you are one angry woman, whewwwwwwweeee....but with as good a reason as I have seen in a long time. I pretty much agree with all your philosophic points (by the way I am a wsh, but I sure don't hold my w in any way responsible for that, it was all my decision, for reasons unrelated to your post)...you sound like a woman on a mission, so I will just make a couple observations.<p>1. If at all possible put that anger to use for you, motivate you do to something positive unrelated to your marital history.<p>2. Maybe consider your husband like an implacable force in the universe, a tornado, earthquake, meteor strike or something...just survive it however you must, without any emotional component.<p>3. Re medical stuff, just sign over all accounts etc to him, he pays, he doesn't pay, whatever...goes on his credit...you just take the kids where they need to go.<p>4. Can you sue his business somehow for any kind of damages?<p>5. Can you collect all this stuff he does in journal form and send it to the presiding judge, maybe he will act to put your H under tighter restrictions.
<p>From where I sit it strikes me you are still in a toxic dance with H, have not psychologically disconnected, is kind of a power dance, and it sounds a leeeeetle bit like you wanna make him pay in some way...until you let that go, you are your own worst enemy, and he wins....like you said, the abuser always wins UNTIL the victim lets go...ya know? Good luck, and my admiration for holding up as well as you have.