Hello all.<p>I have been on this list for quite sometime and I am using this message to really post quite a few things that have been piling up and that I think will most likey relate to everyone.<p>In my search for "less pain" I have gone fairly deep into personal and relationship education lately. Oprah always has Dr. Phil on - I have his book and I have taken the Landmark training, both of which are excellent AND which profess being AUTHENTIC, and putting ones SELF FIRST! And this is the key to "real" happiness.<p>Now here comes the tricky part. Then I check out more of the traditional relationship books and Marriage Builders.com where a lot of the "gospel" is Compromies and putting other's needs first. And that is the key to happiness.<p>Okay, the million dollar question - What's the key!?! - Both of these answers/ways of thinking make total sense, but are in sharp contrast to each other. I believe this "contrast" is what causes the "giving" and "taking" we hear so much about.. <p>Anyway, what's the deal? How do you feel? What do you think? Am I not getting something?<p>I have a new relationship (Sadly my last one failed - Worse than any Shakespeare tragedy - I still feel it was destined to work)...Anyway, on my new one sometimes I feel like I am being to selfish and other times I feel like I have a right to expect more. Does that cause inner/outer and sporatic feeling and actions?- You bet.<p>I also feel like somedays I would marry the girl I'm with now and other days it just doesn't "feel" right. If I'm reading Dr. Phil -she's not perfect for me and needs to go, If I'm reading this site I need to put her needs first and get married already.<p>My GF says it comes down to onw simple thing "commitment". I agree with her, but "commitment" is a big deal and who wants to "make a mistake", "settle", etc on something so important.<p>Lastly, I have taken a lot of advice and not given very much, so I am planning to log in just to try and give back and would encourage others to do so. Heck maybe some of us will actually be smart and listen to some of our own advice in the process of helping.<p>Best wishes to all and I look forward to seeing any responses.<p>Kind and confused,
Jason

Hi Jason,<p>Boy, you have a wonderful post here. Unfortunately, you posted it on a Friday, the notorious day before the weekend -- SLOW, SLOW, SLOW! So please don't be offended if you don't get a lot of response until Monday.<p>That said, all I can tell you is that life is full of choices, and sometimes you have to pick and choose. <p>I also believe in "gut feelings" ... you are questioning whether or not to marry this woman, and if you're questioning, I don't think it's time yet. What does your "gut" tell you?<p>I have read some of Dr. Phil's stuff, and have OF COURSE (who hasn't?) seen him on Oprah. I have also read some of Harley's stuff, and have been on this website for going on three years. <p>I don't know WHAT the answer is, really I don't. But what I've done is taken some of Harley's stuff (like the POJA and Radical Honesty) and thrown away some other stuff (some of the Emotional Needs, "Attractive Spouse" for example)... and taken some of Dr. Phil's stuff (Getting out of the "Comfort Zone")... and then also some other stuff I've learned all over the place.<p>Anyway, I think it's great that you're thinking about this. Hopefully you'll get some more responses soon!

Jason, <p>This is the question of the century, isn't it? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But I think it is a great question, and to be honest, it is one thing I am just now learning about myself. Here are my thoughts.<p>I have been a "CareTaker" all my life. I took care of my younger sisters, I had kids and took care of them, and I put my H's needs and even wishes ahead of my own. Over the years, this built a lot of resentment in me and was also very damaging to my SELF. <p>When my H had his A, it woke me up from the "make believe" relationship and marriage that I was in, and I started to learn and grow. One of the coolest things I learned is that being the Giver all the time IS NOT THE GOAL! I thought being the Giver all the time meant I was being loving and selfless. In real life, the price that comes with being the Giver all the time is that I am not taking care of me--I'm not looking out for my own best interests. By the same token, being Taker all the time is also not the goal. Taker is part good and part not so good. Taker looks out for me and is concerned about ME--but it can also be selfish and uncaring. <p>So, what I've learned is that there has got to be BALANCE. I need to be a Taker. That is good for me and healthy--to care about myself enough to not let others take advantage of me. But I also need to be a Giver. It is good to care for other and consider them. <p>Here's the way I achieve this balance (when I'm doing a good job and not flipping out--heehee): I am honest with myself about what I want and what I need. I don't try to be "sacrificing" or "selfless." I let my wants and needs be known to others so they do not have to guess or mess around with unspoken expectations. BUT...I also take the time to hear what THEY want and need. Then, to finalize the deal, I reach some conclusion/agreement that I can live with--that meets my want and/or needs--and that THEY can live with--that meets their wants and/or needs. If it is one of those situations where it has to be one way or the other(like buy a car or not), I do NOTHING until there is some kind of way of meeting one of their needs while simultaneously meeting one of my needs (like, "okay, we will buy the new car for you, but we will also buy a DSL internet connection for me). <p>Does that help? Make any sense?? <p>It is a balancing act, and it is very hard for me to do. I still want to be the Giver all the time. I tend to forget to look out for my own best interests. BUT, I'm working on it!<p>
CJ

I thought the point of meeting each others needs was not so much that one person is always the giver - although when the marriage is trouble then one spouse may have to be more of a giver for awhile - but that by meeting your spouses needs they then become so happy that they want to meet your needs. Then both partiesare happy.<p>Anything in extremes - like all giving and all taking - is never good. But I believe each partner does develop certain roles in the relationship and that each partner needs to value and respect the other for their unique role.<p>It's also a Love One Another concept that I think everything boils down to. Are you loving your spouse, and are they loving you.<p>When you get to the divorce board, usually one spouse has chosen not to love the other and thus it is more harmful than good to stay in a relationship where one spouse has made a decision never to work on the relationship and continue down the wrong path - most often due to a MLC or affair, or other addiction.<p>It takes two to make a marriage work, and you have to find out, based upon where you are emotionally and spiritually, where the road is taking you. <p>I like MB because by doing Plan A, you really do feel like you've done everything you could have to save the marriage and even if the other spouse still chooses to go. It helps us heal, as well as prepares us to have healthy happy relationships the next go round.<p>Thanks for the interesting topic. K

Thanks for the feedback thus far... Anyone else [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Just a question= Who's this Dr Phil I keep reading about?????????

Dr. Phil McGraw has carved out a name for himself in the help yourself/live life to the fullest category. I personally love his thinking and his book is great (and I hate reading). His Best Seller is called SELF MATTERS. He makes frequest appearances on the Oprah show. Hope that helps, J

If I'm reading this site I need to put her needs first and get married already.
You are a bit confused. If you don't know if you should get married or are wondering about it, then don't do it. Stop & figure out what is happening.<p>Plan A is all about putting the other first in order to SAVE the marriage.<p>Marriage itself is about putting your needs and the needs of your partner in the right order AT THE RIGHT TIME, ie. sometimes the other partners needs are more important. Marriage Builders is all about understanding what to do & when & how to do it.

Anybody else... Good feedback thus far... Your comments greatly appreciated. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Jack:<p>I would like to give my opinion on your "quest" here. According to your sig, you have only been logged on as a contributing poster since Aug. I don't know how long you have been going through your "trials," though.<p>I think the BIGGEST issue is time. Give yourself and ANY relationship as much time as it takes to be certain this is the correct path for you. TO quote your favorite "Life Strategist" - this could be one of your life's critical decisions. Go into it with your eyes open, and your heart in the right place, making sure you have dotted EVERY "I" and crossed every "T" necessary.<p>If you feel you have found someone you want to share the rest of your life with, you certainly know what some of the tools that will help are: Take ALL the questionnaires, Give and Taker, LoveBusters, Emotional Needs, et al.<p>Good luck and God Bless in your walk through this confusing "educational process."

Dear LUPOLADY (and others with advice)<p>Great answer you gave me. However, what if the other person is really pushing for marriage (and appears to be genuine in compromise and intent on making it work out). There only caveat is that they don't want to date or be engaged forever. Then does the "take as long as you need to figure it out" theory hold up? I could argue to my new signif other that if you loved me you'd give me time, in which case I'd certainly see her response being well f you really loved me like love you, you'd commit and marry me. Again I think my GF, in my opinion, has a point when she says commitment is just that Can you committ or not? I guess it looks like a timing/compromise issue - How do you decide who gives?

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Check out the book " Saving Your Second Marriage Before it Starts, 9 questions to ask before (and after)you remarry." <p>Its by Drs. Les and Leslie Parrott.

Hmmm... Still the conflict seems so crazy. I know it is obviously a delicate balancing act. It just seems so difficult an equation to have to people "equally" come together. Seems like a relationship would almost work easier if one was "sumbissive/passive" in nature, while the other was more dominant....Maybe??

Jason..
You are right- on the surface- it would be easier if one person is more submissive- and the other more dominant..but in the long run- relationships like that are usually blown to bits by tragedy- or maintained day in and day out to "keep the peace"- but neither party experience true and real joy or happiness in love with one another.<p>One of the things that throws a red flag up for me as I read your post and questions...<p>If you are asking your GF to marry you because she "needs" you badly, because she is throwing words out like "can't commit" or because you feel like- in the famous line from "The Bachelor"- that you should either sh*t or get off the pot..<p>Then a marriage started on that basis is NEVER gonna work or last!!<p>If you need time- YOU NEED TO TAKE IT!! She might come back with "well- if you loved me- you'd commit" all day long- but HONEY- Is that real love?<p>Please read again- the Love Chapter in Corinthians...<p>Read it together! Read it by yourself- think deep and introspectively and observe your GF's behaviour! Is this the basis that you would want to start a lifetime commitment on? Saying you can't commit- is like throwing down a gauntlet and thus, you are being manipulated into a proposal that you might not really want!!<p>Part of you might- you might be looking at her full of love and wonder how you would ever live without her! But I truly think- that you would not be here asking us these questions if you were really confident in your love, or ready for a commitment like marriage.<p>Please take the time- please rub the "starriness" from your eyes- and encourage your GF to do the same- think of one another in both lights-<p>The marriagebuilder fashion- Are you ready to really fully meet eachother's needs- are you ready to possibly go for years without having your own met? Should you even go further in a relationship with KNOWLEDGE that this person DOES NOT meet many of your needs and will be a taker?<p>The Dr Phil fashion- Do not invest more in a relationship than you are willing to lose. Investment of yourself, your time, your money, your energy. That philosophy- while doom and gloom- might also be a good one to consider...Is the person you are with- worth the investment of YOU?<p>I only speak to you from experience- it has been months since I have been here- but something about this pulled at me to post..<p>I wish that someone had posed these questions to me- and to me husband..<p>Yet now- our marriage is in shambles- and we have kids, debt, and more baggage because of it than we could have ever imagined.<p>Best of luck to you Jason- in whichever path you choose..and maybe with some counseling? (not pre-marital- that is lame and no REAL issues are addressed) and prayer and real soul searching- you will be able to mesh the two philosophies together- marriagebuilders and Dr Phil's- and decide it this GF is the right person for you.<p>Keep us posted!
TLFM

AACCKk! I'm coming into this a bit late, but I have a big mouth, and gotta open it once again.<p>When you say Landmark training do you mean Landmark Forum? The intense weekend thing then the follow up meetings.... Previously known by a different name?<p>I am a firm believer in people finding what works for them, and putting plans into action to have a better life. <p>I could go into a big long post here but if you have gone through the training they have "debunked" my myths and already explained to you why it is not a cult or a brainwashing type of training.<p>If you don't know the history of this group please look it up. I have 2 groups of friends who have gone through this 'training' at seperate times and came out all f'ed up.<p>I guess if you take what you like and leave the rest it is fine, but the people who get all wrapped up in this are not fine.<p>Of course this is all my humble and biased opinion, and I mean no disrespect to anyone. I just had to toss my 2 cents in here because I had to.<p>Elizabeth

Hi JustTheWife (Elizabeth)<p>Interestingly enough I can see the benefits of the Landmark Forum and I can also see how it could be devastating to te wrong people.<p>Interestingly enough it was a week after I finished my forum training that my ex-dumped me. THrough the Landmark Forum I began to express everything to her and she dumped me. I have been in hell (prugatory now) ever since. I mean my life went up in smoke. Ultimately she probably would have broken it off anyway and so in that light maybe it was better to have it done sooner than later. All I can say is that it definitely had an influence on my relationship and that I miss my life (ex) greatly still today. I think about her at least 100 times everyday and it has been 9 months since she broke it off.<p>I am now in a new realtionship and if I was taking the advice of the Landmark Forum I'd be out of it right now because I am not being completely "authentic". That's true. I also know my current GF is not being authentic. Ultimately we we'll probably have to re-confront things such as she's religious and I'm not, I aspire to be famouse - she wants or life tobe very small and private.<p>The compromise/be true to yourself game is truly tough and quite frankly also getting pretty old. Is it supposed to be this tough??<p>Any responses appreciated.<p>Jack

Dear "Emotionally Checked Out"<p>Another Excellent Post on this topic. First I want to say thanks to everyone for contributing thus far. I really am struggling with this.<p>Okay "Emotionally Checked Out", in being totally honest I still miss my ex a great deal. I think about here every morning, throughout the day and at night. I still feel "not complete" like I'm living in neverland without her by my side.<p>I am guessing I still need healing time. I do think that had I never been involved with my ex that I'd be more apt to pull the marriage-trigger with the new girl. Guess I've learned enough to be scared.<p>Thanks!