I have been trying to start plan A but am having a difficult time. I know it has only been three days.... is there anyway to help myself along. I think I'm worried that she won't think I love her anymore and will move on. I never dreamed in a million years I would be on this f****** site talking about this. We had a great marriage... I'm very hurt but don't hate my wife... I have never felt closer to her (insided me) than I do now. It is nice because she will hug me and give me a peck on the lips when I ask. We haven't had sex for 1 month... this is starting to be a problem for me. Any suggestions? I would never go else where for sex. I am a married man and until I am not I am faithful to my wife regardless of what she has done.

Okay, this is going to be blunt but... you have two hands... In reality, the last thing you want to do in Plan A in to ask for something that is your need and not her need. I know it is not fair and I know it is very difficult but Plan A is about meeting her ENs, your ENs come last if at all. This does not mean that you don't take care yourself, it is just the opposite, you take care yourself and work on yourself to be a better person, but your ENs in the relationship, including SF (sexual fulfillment) will most likely NOT be met. Sorry, its been 8 months and couting for me.. the lack of SF doesn't seem to get any easier with time, atleast not for me...
Dave

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am a married man and until I am not I am
faithful to my wife regardless of what she has done. <hr></blockquote><p>Gland to here this!! Good Job!

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

My point was to state that asking for something that is a major EN for you but not hers while in Plan A is a major LB, and not to do it.
My intent was not to debate the morality of masturbation, you could probably do a very large post on that subject. What you do with yourself is none of my business, my point was simply not to LB, sorry I even mention the part about the hands, I was half joking... If you can go months or years without any SF, then that is great, you are a KNIGHT IN SHINING HONOR.
Dave

what if you're fantasizing about your WS while you're fulfilling your SF need by yourself? [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Is that wrong?!!

Wouldn't be in my book but my opinion didn't seem to be so popular. Not sure what else you do for months or years, this is a very long process, SF is usually one of thee top 5 ENs for males.

Begging your pardon, Dave, but one person's contrary opinion does not make your own "unpopular".<p>In my opinion, nothing "channels energy away from stress & sexual temptations" nearly as effectively as masturbation. (Note that physical exercise tends to increase libido rather than defuse it.)<p>As long as you're not depriving your spouse, and as long as you're not "lusting after" someone else, I don't see any problem.<p>As a Christian, I am aware of NO Biblical admonitions against masturbation. (Believe me, I've looked.) Last I heard, the Roman Catholic church was officially against the practice, and of course it's a controversial subject in many Christian circles; but despite my own generally old-fashioned sexual mores, the theological and philosophical arguments which I have heard advanced against it have always struck me as pretty weak.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong>
As long as you're not depriving your spouse, and as long as you're not "lusting after" someone else, I don't see any problem.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>
You are heading down the same path as me.<p>18 months after D-Day and I am still suffering.<p>Give her the ultimatum NOW - sort yourself out or GET OUT.<p>Believe me after 18 months of hell - masturbation is better than sex.

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newstartj:
<strong>The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.<p>The purpose of sex, numbskulls, is to give LOVE to YOUR WIFE and to CREATE NEW LIFE. <p>Sexual PLEASURE is an INCENTIVE to have sex with her and is a REWARD FOR GIVING HER LOVE. AND HOW MANY BABIES WOULD THERE BE IF LOVIN' WEREN'T PLEASURABLE?<p>SEX IS A DRIVE, an INSTINCT, not a true need like OXYGEN or FOOD. Sexual Fulfillment is not an absolute NEED; it is an urge that is fulfilled as a by-product of LOVING YOUR WIFE. <p>The argument that masturbation is natural, is meaningless. Natural does not equal good. It is natural for my kids to lie, steal, and hit, but those things are disordered, especially a sign of immaturity if they persist into adulthood. Just goes to show that our natural urges of eros must be subordinated to reason, authentic marital love, & maturity, too.<p>WHY waste your time getting married at all, if you believe in self-service?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I was not aware when I got married that I would be making a vow of celibacy, and I believe it is to my credit that I have remained true to my vows despite the unforeseen consequences. I would be delighted to give my wife 100% of myself. She accepts 0%. Sexual frustration, not sexual fulfillment, is my "reward" for loving my wife, and masturbation deprives her of nothing.<p>I am not going to argue here about whether masturbation has a place in a healthy marriage (although I could). We are not talking about healthy marriages here, but ones that are already "morally disordered".<p>I believe in absolutes, and I am not trying to suggest that two wrongs make a right. But anyone who has studied ethics to any degree is aware of how quickly matters of morality can become muddy. It is not always appropriate to take a moral standard prescribed for one context and assign it to another.<p>God knows how unyielding I can be when it comes to standing on principles. I feel no need to defend myself on that account. But God also gave me gifts of "reason and intellect" which I believe I am expected to use in the application of those principles.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I CHALLENGE you to be chaste for one day. Will YOU do it?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I've done that.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Now, BE CHASTE for one WEEK? Will you have a seizure?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I've done that. No seizures to report.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Try controlling yourself for one MONTH? Will you shrivel up & die?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OK, I've done that too. Rather the opposite of shriveling occurs. The hormonal buildup results in the libido going into overdrive, and everything begins to take on a sexual coloration.<p>Some moralizers have suggested that "wet dreams" will provide a natural solution for this effect, but despite being a very patient man, I got tired of waiting. And anyway, the images that turn up in dreams can be far more questionable morally than anything I would conjure up deliberately.<p>Other moralizers have suggested that sublimation is the answer. Perhaps that works for some people, but I have found it to be only temporarily effective. The MOST effective method for defusing the libido (aside from masturbation) that I know of is living in a constant state of exhaustion, and that is neither healthy nor completely reliable.<p>In the end, I lost interest in trying to solve what I believe to be essentially a non-problem. I'm afraid that I don't grant a great deal of weight to "constant traditional teaching over thousands of years"; that description could also be applied to the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. Neither can I grant much weight to "the firmly held moral sense of the faithful", considering how diverse that moral sense tends to be. I am much more interested in looking at the principles and standards found in the Bible and trying to understand them, so that I can apply them wisely.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Ask JESUS CHRIST, he NEVER masturbated; and he was a true man, who faced temptation, JUST LIKE YOU!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>It always amazes me how ready some people are to make claims about what Jesus did or didn't do, despite the silence of the historical record. I want to know the real Jesus Christ, not construct an image of him in the likeness of my own preconceptions.<p>The Bible simply does not address the issue of masturbation. Period.

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newstartj:
<strong>But I feel fear, since I sense a hint of hostility towards me in my defense of the traditional teaching of the Church regarding CHASTITY.<p>I respect your right to religious liberty in this forum, will you respect mine? (Witty sarcasm is OK with me.)<p>Was your use of the perjorative label "moralizer", applied to me with my position? I don't like that label since all Christians apply morals according to their own conscience.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No hostility here. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Since you chose some rather strong language in your posts, I felt no compunction about being pretty direct in my own posts, but my purpose in posting was to present an alternative position rather than to attack you. Those who know me know that I am far more interested in encouraging people to think things through than I am in trying to persuade people to my point of view.<p>I chose to use the term "moralizer" because it concisely and accurately references the role which someone takes upon himself when he strives to provide instruction in morality and guidance in how a moral life may be achieved. I was not aware of a pejorative connotation beyond that which derives from a natural distaste for being told what to do and the common inclination toward "shooting the messenger".<p>The term still strikes me as more appropriate and less negative than "old fuddy-duddy" or "holier than thou" or "prude", and although "traditional moral valuizer" seems clear enough (as long as everyone understands just which of many traditions we are talking about), my sentence constructions are already awkward enough without resorting to deliberate twisting of the English language.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I reaffirm the traditional teaching that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act in ALL situations (even before, during, & after marriage).<p>The reason is that the deliberate use of sexuality outside normal marital relations contradicts, in its ESSENCE, the final purpose of our sexual faculty. For masturbation LACKS the SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP, called for by the moral order, of a FULL SENSE of MUTUAL SELF-GIVING and CREATION of HUMAN LIFE in the CONTEXT OF TRUE LOVE!!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>"The final purpose of our sexual faculty" is quite an interesting expression, I think, and very appropriate to this discussion. I agree that the final purpose of our sexual faculty is to be fulfilled within marriage, but I think it's clear that our "sexual faculty" has a place and a purpose outside of marriage as well, even if that purpose is only to impel us toward marriage.<p>Personally, I don't understand how anyone who has experienced the "full sense of mutual self-giving" to which you refer could possibly consider masturbation to be any kind of substitute for a "morally ordered" sexual relationship. Intellectually, I understand that some individuals with intimacy problems prefer masturbation as their means of sexual release, but my capacity for imaginative empathy doesn't stretch that far.<p>To my way of thinking, masturbation is a bit pathetic, in much the same way that scrounging for food in garbage cans is pathetic, but that does not make it an affront to the natural order of the created universe.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>The BIBLE DOES ADDRESS the ISSUE of MASTURBATION and ALL ABUSES OF the SEXUAL FACULTY...CONDEMNING THEM COLLECTIVELY in the NEW TESTAMENT when it refers to "IMPURITY", "UNCHASTENESS", and the other vices contrary to chastity & continence.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>None of the Scriptural references you provided are relevant to this discussion unless, as you suggest, the Biblical authors intended masturbation to be included under the umbrella of the general-purpose terms for sexual sins.<p>I know of no basis for reaching such a conclusion outside of the pronouncement of various Church authorities. Since I am not a Roman Catholic, I do not find the mere fact of a pronouncement to be persuasive.<p>Of course, to those non-Christian readers who may be lurking in this topic, this whole discussion must seem pretty silly. Biblical pronouncements are not likely to have any greater significance for them than Roman Catholic traditions have for me.<p>To them I would just say this: Remember that whatever you do, you will have to live with yourself for the rest of your life.

GnomeDePlume - <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It always amazes me how ready some people are to make claims about what Jesus did or didn't do, despite the silence of the historical record. I want to know the real Jesus Christ, not construct an image of him in the likeness of my own preconceptions.<hr></blockquote><p>Thank you very much for putting this thought into much better words than I could. As you know, however, this will have no sway on the "faithful". They have absolutely no understanding of your posiiton.

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Mushrooms can't be ruled out from the definition of vegetables.<p>Try this.<p>What IS included in vegetables?<p>Define.<p>1. Vegetables<p>Vegetables are edible leaves, stems, roots, tubers, seeds, and flowers of certain plants. Botanically, vegetables are classified as any part of a plant that is not involved in reproduction. Some foods that are actually fruits are classified as vegetables because of their nutrient content.<p>http://www.healthwell.com/healthnotes/Food/Vegetables.cfm

What is Plan A?<p>I've seen Plan A, Plan B for infidelity.

Hey y'all just thought I'd chime in to say how much I love this stuff. These discussions, I mean. There are a couple going on the boards that really cause one to think. <p>I've been following this one from the beginning.<p>I am a Christian and I pretty much agree with Gnome on this one.<p>I did have a couple points to make:<p>1-How does one "practice" homosexuality? Are there certain lessons one must take before actually becoming a homosexual.<p>2-How on God's green earth did we go from talking about masterbation to mushrooms? Is this some kind of "American Pie" thang or what.<p>3-Gnome, First off I'm not a practicing homo nor do I play one on TV but I have to say that I absolutely love reading your posts.<p>Best of luck to all here.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKK<p>Elizabeth dashes from her computer as to not be sucked in as she has oh so many times before.<p>I quit. I'll stay. And nobody had to invite me.<p>If you wanna masturbate, do it.<p>I've done it. It feels good. It doesn't transmit disease, it is not being unfaithful or sinning according to Fr. Bill (number available upon request).<p>I'll masturbate any gosh darn time I please, and then I will go to Communion on Sunday in my Roman Catholic Church with my head held high.<p>I will even masturbate with a vegetable if I feel so inclined, although mushroom would not be my choice.<p>The point is, people have needs. If other people do not feel they are valid then they are loosing out on something they might learn. All feelings are valid. All of them. End of story. <p>newstartj is new here, and on another post (Free Will) had asked some questions of me. I have answered them fully, I hope I helped some, and I also help that what I have said to her helps her to understand that we are all here to share and learn.<p>I do not apologize for my feelings, never have, never will. I think that we need to make sure that when we post we keep others feelings in our hearts, and make sure that we do not go off on people just for the sake of furthering our viewpoints. <p>I am always in the mood for a good post that makes you think, but we MUST remember that everyone here is different and that is not our problem or concern.<p>AND WE GOTTA STOP ALL THIS YELLING!!!<p>I'm getting a headache.<p>Anyone got any vicodin? I prefer the 15/325's.<p>Excuse me while I go take a pill then pleasure myself with a vegetable or two.<p>Love,
Elizabeth