Well, <p>Told WH that I will only commuicate with him through written message, e-mail, nextel phone, fax, third party or counselor. He has flatly refused to do this and "says" he's not reading any of my e-mail, and he won't speak to any of my third parties. <p>He has had the boys since last Friday(a week ago) and will not return them until I speak to him. He is also forcing the OW down the kids throats by seeing her durng this time and having her watch them. And, he is staying with his parents, so they are in a sense assisting him with this bad behavior - I mean don't they think their grand kids need to see their mother? <p>Anyway, I'm of two minds. One wants to go over there and get the kids while he's at work on Wed. - I can just pick them up from school. <p>Or, I can just let him continue to have them and let his parents pick up the slack of driving them to and from school when he's at work and see how long it is before someone gives - his parents or the kids. He needs a does of reality.<p>My 3 year old must be dying inside and feeling so insecure. My WH really has no heart. But the kids need to see his true self and be the ones to get him to do the right thing. THey are 7 1/2, 6 and 3. Although the 7 1/2 year old thinks he has to lie for his dad to get his love. It's sick. <p>They have a counseling session on Thurs. and I wonder what they will say when they say they haven't seen their mom and new baby sister in two weeks. Of course this also mean that WH hasn't seen his new daughter in two weeks either, and I sent a tape over of her and he hasn't even shown it to the boys. Talk about an A being an addiction.<p>Our court date is in April, and the divorce should be final at that time with a temporary custody agreement in place. But it's how to handle this until then that's the issue.<p>Anyone have any advice? K<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: God is in Control ]<p>[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</p>

I don't know what the rules are in your state, but in NJ visitation is one week night and every other weekend. BUt you'd need a lawyer to file for you. And I don't know if you're ready to handle everything with your new baby girl.
I wish you luck, but you may need to go legal.
Our state has women's assistance centers which help with such matters. Look for help. BTW Congratulations.

AS far as harm, definately NOT!<p>we had a top notch pediatrician while he was here, (went religious, packed up and went to a third world country. . . .) and he said was to minimize time with the newborn beyond the house for the first six months. . . . no pass the baby around at work, or with tons of relatives, etc.<p>so giving your baby lots less stress for the first couple weeks is probably very beneficial as she gains weight and gets used to this new world. . . <p>second, just because the state laws use guidelines to make decisions quick and easy for judges, does not mean that a father has to get the minimum automatically, or every week. . . .<p>third, your kids might appreciate you more when they come back. . . however, i have to deal with one of those head cases, those selfish controllers with time who screwed up the marriage, and then refuses to allow me anything more than schedule flexibility, if i'm lucky. . .
i'm the father, and after we agreed to a 60-40 split in mediation, she decided because the laws were minimal, she and her lawyer decided to use the minimum guidelines. . . it was very selfish. . .<p>however, at the point in time that you decide they need to come home, then you contact the attorney with the letter, and ask the attorney to set up what's needed, or file some sort of contempt charge against him. . . .<p>suffer, maybe temporarily, but permanently, they've got a long childhood of parental bickering to go through, i don't think an extra couple of weeks at this point in time will mean very much. . .<p>but i would use your lawyer while you rest and take care of the newborn<p>wiftty

I don't know if you've done so but you need to talk to an attorney and have a visitation schedule established. That way if he doesn't return your children, you can have the police go with you to retrieve them and he will be in contempt of court.<p>Your children do need to see you. But I don't think they've been harmed by this withholding of visitation. But please seek some legal advice. Father for equal rights will help mothers, too, and they do it for a small membership fee. I would at least check them out.

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Oh, I wish it were that easy. Yes, I have explored all legal options - and the April hearing is the hearing to establish temporary custody etc. <p>Unfortunately, where I reside, the spouse has to be actively doing drugs in front of the children or I have to be in real fear of the children's lives for the courts to step in for any emergency hearing.<p>So far neither of those situations have come into play.<p>Yes, I can get them from school, or when their grandparents have them because my rights trump theirs. Or I can have have the police accompany me if the prandparents refuse to let me have them. But as far as to parents fighting over the kids, the police say there is nothing they can do because both parties have equall access.<p>Now if WH refuses to tell me where he is with the children I can have him pocked up on a parental kidnapping charge, but a judge would have to sign off on that an he could return them by the time I got an order signed.<p>So really, if push came to shove, I can get them back sooner rather than later. I am however beginning to think that just like in SAA, this may be the best thing for WH and kids so that they can get a taste of what their father is really like, the grandparents can see the real WH, and the WH can have a does of reality.<p>It is awful for the children I know, but the 3 year old won't remember this and I'm keeping the lines of communication open with my other 2. They are also scheduled to go to counseling this week and they have school. <p>My FIL talked to me last night and wanted me to be the "bigger person" in all this but what he was really asking me to do was to continue to let WH walk all over me just like my FIL is letting him do. And I politely said, I'm not taking WH's controlling abusive actions anymore, and the WH has responsibility over how he treats the children and it's time he took some of that responsibility. I'm not going to bail out WH anymore. It's not my fault the kids are suffering. It's his and I'm sick of him placing blame on everyone else but himself for his actions.<p>I'm taking it one day at a time though, paying special attention to how the kids are doing so that I can jump in and rescue them if it gets too bad. I read SAA again about when Sue left and I think Jon Plan B'd for a long time. However, it doesn't say what he did with regards to teh kids. <p>Thanks for everyone's concerns. I do also believe that a court will not lool kindly on knowing that WH kept children away just because I wouldn't communicate with him in person. Especially since I have offered to go to counselors and speak through third parties etc.<p>We'll see. K

((((K))))<p>I'd like to add my pennies.<p>1st cent - You sweet hubby sounds extremly controlling and manipulative so I'd be really scared right now. If he has these children for a long time right before court, what's to say that he's not going to try to use that against you.<p>2nd cent - Granted I don't know all the details, but why can't you two atleast talk long enough to come up with your own visitation schedule prior to court?

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

Hi K-<p>My first question is has your husband always been this controlling or is this a symtom of the affair?<p>Being a lawyer, I know you know the law and have scoped out your options, however, this doesn't seem right or legal. One parent can't interfere with the rights of another and he is clearly doing so. <p>In order to work this out, is there any way that you can sit down with your WH and establish some guidelines? I would do it in the prescence of another, your attorney would be great and work out a schedule. You can't afford to wait until April. If he refuses call in the law. He can't keep them from you, it is illegal and like someone has already said, he may try to use it against you in court. You want to get those kids back. Consult your attorney immediately!<p>As for permanent damage to the kids. I don't see that happening, but who knows what he is doing or saying in your absence. What is the deal with your inlaws? I take it he is abusive and controlling to them as well? What exactly did your FIL have in mind in regards to you being the better person? Maybe they need to be better people and step in for the sake of their grandchildren.<p>This situation is getting out of control. You need to step in and get the law on your side. Your WH is not God, even though he seems to think he is. We have a legal system to deal with jerks like him.<p>Hang in there and keep us posted.<p>K

Hey Bill,<p>apparently you have never worked very much with mentally disordered people. . .<p>they are not the average bunch. . . .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>Hey Bill,<p>apparently you have never worked very much with mentally disordered people. . .<p>they are not the average bunch. . . .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>worked with them heck, I was married to one of em.<p>But seriously, you lost me on this comment.

Oh my gosh! Go get your kids!<p>Love,
BB

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

with this comment:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2nd cent - Granted I don't know all the details, but why can't you two atleast talk long enough to come up with your own visitation schedule prior to court? <hr></blockquote><p>mine agreed to everything, and then wanted it changed it at the last second. . . . after having it for about 1 year, and successfully so. .. . told me she wanted a divorce and never asked for the CS- told her lawyer that she couldn't live like this and that i was being unreasonable. . .<p>so yeah, i doubt you were married to a real live controlling, emotionally unstable one. . . . yours just had a couple of issues. . .<p>Bill, my X wants to punish me for something from her childhood FOO, constantly changes and manipulates the schedule so that i get absolute minimum time. . . sometimes she is nice, other times i can't even finish a sentence and she starts off yelling, she has even starting yelling at me in the middle of a soccer field with all parents around. . .<p>She divorced me and then wants to sit next to me at all kids games, and make nice small talk. . . but she holds our 10 yo d, will not let her go, will do full body embraces and lip kissing with her in public at sports games IF i am there. . . <p>so why did my x yell at me, curse at me, call me names, etc. told me i shouldn't be getting them for vacation time, when i came to pick up kids for my scheduled vacation time with them that we agreed to? why would she divorce me and tell the kids that she wants to come with me and the kids to my family's christmas party?<p>they are disordered, and some are very disordered. . .<p>to ask why they can't sit down to talk about it is a pure battle of control against the world as they see it, and they don't see it anywhere near how we see it . . . .<p>so that's what i mean about you haven't really dealt with the crazy ones. . . .

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;mine agreed to everything, and then wanted it changed it at the last second. . . . after having it for about 1 year, and successfully so. .. . told me she wanted a divorce and never asked for the CS- told her lawyer that she couldn't live like this and that i was being unreasonable. . . &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;<p>Yep, been there done that. My x wrote out our original custody agreement and then changed her mind on EVERYTHING after telling the kids. She decided that I should only have the standard custody agreement. So I fought for primary custody. She told the kids they were going to one school and then changed her mind. <p>&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;so yeah, i doubt you were married to a real live controlling, emotionally unstable one. . . . yours just had a couple of issues. . . &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;<p>Let&#8217;s see she tried to run over me in her van. She still try&#8217;s to change the established schedule. And yes I have many saved voice messages being called every name in the book. Say what you want but to this day she is still trying to assert her control and to say she&#8217;s emotionally unstable would be an understatement. Like many others she has unresolved issues with her family that reared up in our marriage and were them pointed at me.<p>I guess the degree of &#8220;disorder&#8221; can be an issue. In my case we at least had our first court date within 10 days of her leaving so an agreement had to be made. Kansas seems to be a state that despises domestic disputes and almost forces the parties to make agreements. Since she was the &#8220;controller&#8221; I asked her what she thought a reasonable temporary schedule would be. She came back with something totally ridiculous and I answered with something ridiculous in the other direction and at some point we were able to meet in the middle.<p>Now I can&#8217;t pretend to understand the point of view from a physically abused wife for I was an emotionally abused husband with only occasional physical altercations to which I simply fell to the floor and allowed her to have her way until she was done. But when it comes to my kids, I will not allow her to intimidate me in any way. I have and will continue to take any legal action to ensure that my girls are properly taken care of emotionally and physically.

well, you are among good company, worse than mine, so hats' off to you . . . i only got slapped once, along time ago, and she has never done that again. . . but i know the rest. . . <p>however, here in MA, with a no fault,
there is a standard minimum the judge does not have to think about. . . . he asks for a GAL report to see if the W is a fit mother, and then assigns primary. Mediation is not a requirement, and only if agreed to and executed before court. <p>so its stacked against the H. . . .
plus there are standards for CS, so a W
has total control . . . .<p>however, when i talked with the mediator, she said that some people can not sit in a room and discuss stuff at all. . . . IMPOSSIBLE<p>mediation can be impossible without a requirement. . . <p>Kansas is a progressive state, you are lucky.
in my opinion, custody for me would have been impossible. . . .<p>corp executive, travel, no house in town where kids go to school.
wife - 20 year school teacher of HS,
teaching awards
EMT, coach<p>my kids wills not come out of this whole. . . .<p>good luck, you live in a better state than i

Hi K-<p>I've been reading all of your posts and thought I'd post here with in hopes you'd see itthe quickest.<p>First of all thanks for the titles. I will check into them. I think I am doing a pretty good job of keeping things balanced, but he never ceases to amaze me. I feel like I am dealing with a child, however, I must admit that this is nothing new, I have felt that way for years.<p>Also thanks for the lead on the BPD. It fits my husband to a tee. While we were together I was always on eggshells. He was always doing something to upset things. I know that this a common action of adult survivors of abuse, but it is extremely hard to live with. Don't get me wrong, I am not perfect and I did not handle all of his problems like I should have, but I at least was willing to try and to consult professional help. <p>He still is the master of blame. I will admit that he is not nearly the control freak that your WH is, however, he is always so bitter about life in general. Of course nothing is ever his fault and therefore he moves from quick fix to quick fix. The poor OW is so sheltered due to distance that she is blind. Furthermore, she takes care of him completely. I see her falling into the same pattern with him that I was in only much sooner. She has no idea what she is in for and thanks to distance it may be awhile before she sees it if she even does as she gets deeper and deeper into it. <p>For her sake maybe something will happen. For his sake too. I keep hoping for the A to end in hopes that it will push him to get help for his problems if for nothing else the kids' sake. It is the only thing really holding him up right now. That fog cause wonderful rose colored glasses shall we say? Without the A I can see him hitting bottom a lot quicker, but then again only God knows.<p>Enough about me though. So what other hoops has your WH come up with? I think he is getting a little dose of what the reality of being a full time parent is all about. You are not being difficult, he is just not used to you using boundaries. He doesn't like it, but it is working for you. Do you have the kids back? I totally understand your 6 year old crying about wanting to come back. You are their stability, they need you. I know my kids are always happy to see their dad, but they know who they feel secure with, sure of , and want to live with. I imagine your kids feel the same.<p>As for the BPD, I know what triggers my X. What about your WH? His parents seem to be total enablers. What was his childhood like? <p>Take care of yourself and those kids. Keep me posted.<p>Take care and God bless!
K