Other than the counseling you and your wife went to has she been to any other counseling??<p>I'm sure it didn't help her self-image any being told she was selfish and self-centered..<p>From experience here, a person who has was raised in an abusive home..(and for her if her mom was married multiple times, it's possible that she was molested by many step-fathers, and boyfriends of her mother)she doesn't understand 'emotionally' how to say no, and even that she has a RIGHT to say NO to other mens advantances..yes, she may understand it on the surface...but deep down..
she doesn't feel like her body is hers..but that it's here to only please men..and if she can't do that..then she's worthless as a person..<p>Inside, she's looking for the validation from a father she never really had..that she is lovable
and acceptable as a person..<p>it sounds as if she's afraid to get emotionally close to anyone especially you..because your 'family' she doesn't trust you to always be there for her..(why should you..she's not worthy of being loved) Not that YOU feel that way...But that is how she feels inside..whether she is saying that or not..<p>If I may, I'd like to recommend a couple of books that you can read that may help you understand her a little more..and the internal damage done to her very being..emotionally she is still a child..
she may feel that because she's admitted she was abused..that she's dealt w/ the problem..(I know I did for years) two the books are<p>The Wounded Heart -- Dan B. Allender<p>Toxic Parents - Susan Forward<p>If you read "The Wounded Heart" first it will help you learn the dynamics of what's going on inside of her..and how sexually abused women learn to cope..It took me three months to read that book..
and it's not a very long book..but it is one that has been very valuable in my healing..<p>She probably looks at you as a father figure..even
though your not her father..you say you love her..
and you want to make love w/ her..her father and possibly many others told her they loved her..and wanted to have sex with her..so subconsciously these are correlated together in her brain..and it's hard to learn this isn't the same type of relationship...<p>the worst thing you can do is tell her things like 'just get over it', "I'M NOT YOUR FATHER",
"It happened so long ago, you should be over that already", if she says you do things that trigger her..(she may not even realize they are triggers
to her past abuse) then believe her..<p>If you have any questions please feel free to ask..if I can help in anyway I'll try..<p>Maybe I can help you understand what I needed and didn't get my ex husband..so that you can help her..

nice post TR, this is stuff I never knew, not having had to deal with it, but it is probably good background for everyone to be aware of re this very big problem for many women...so we can at least understand a little bit if we find ourselves needing to be helpful/supportive/understanding to someone.

OK TR: What you say is true about her sexual abuse how she see's herself and me as a father figure. I read books about the subject and even I went through a workbook myself how to treat her and understand her. She later went through it herself later but I didn't know it until we separated when she moved and the book was laying out, I was shocked....Shocked because she to this day she says books, counseling, churches, is a bunch of junk......she said she wants to be herself whether good or bad.......She says that book stuff ain't for her its for the birds.....<p>When we went to counseling they took my story separate and hers separate after 3 sessions and then brought us together, and told us the good and bad what they gathered about each us, however she resented the bad what they documented about her and she said nomore and jumped ship.......I took my bad and started working on myself....I even confessed openly to her with tears that I failed her and hurt her not knowing how she was deeply hurting and needing me to meet her needs at that time. I knew of the sexual abuse with her but I dealt with it but she wouldn't?<p>Now I did see in writing in her workbook when she wasn't looking that she wrote she likes to be seductive and a party person..She has never been a wild hootchie in her life she is a sweet woman..<p>She did tell me that after her father came back in her life in 1998 she now was having conflict of trying to separate me from of trying to see me as a husband ONLY and not her security father figure anylonger....she said she knew it was wrong to have placed me so high up in her life that took me out of the boyfriend/husband role, but it was just our age and her need through the years, she's 38 now me 39.<p>Therefore her bio father has little values and standards whatever he says go in her life even if it means its ok to have an affair...Meaning they have a family moto of " Whatever you want to do we are behind you good or bad"....SO she grabbed it and ran with it, then ALL the affairs started and he tells me " Well we support each other and nobody interferes with our decisions"...His wife of 10 years his 7th wife, he goes and sleep with my wife's mother [1st wife] in 1997 divorced 30 years ago,....my wife told him it was wrong back then but he said oh well, he said his current wife wasn't meeting his needs and appeared to like a guy where she worked. So he sleeps with his 1st wife while my wifes mother is in a troubled marriage herself of 23 years....Bio dad/mom meet secrectly in another state away from there spouses after 7 marriages each.<p>So as you see her past plays a very strong role in whats happening today...I have been patient over the years but I never thought all this would happen to us.
Thanks for the input.

Correction on first line oops! What you say is true about her sexual abuse how she see's herself and me as a father figure..<p>Should be she see's me as a father figure...

EverlastingCompassion:<p>I cried as I read your post..I can see so much of my own family here..Not that my parent were divorced and married many other people..but my dad had many affairs..and even as a child I knew this..I knew this because "I" was felt like one of his OW..he used me just as he did them..betrayed me as he did my mother and all of these other women..he married one of the women he had an affair with..they've been married some 20 years..
and it wasn't until after my mother became a Christian did she stop sleeping w/ my father..even after they'd divorced and he'd remarried..she gained the self-respect she needed to stop reacting to his manipulations to get her to bed him..<p>But, My father said much the same things.."Do what you want to do..we love you anyway" but you know what..that isn't love..to sit and watch a person do things that hurt themselves..you seperate yourself from the person who is destroying themselves because it's so painful to watch--
No, you don't stop loving them..but you don't have to watch them inflict the pain upon themselves either..<p>much like the family of an alcoholic..you don't support the drinking..and you can't force them to quit, but you can remove yourself from it..so you don't have to watch them kill themselves..<p>When I became a Christian, I didn't have a clue about God's love and grace..and what it meant when others refered to God as Father..because to me a Father was abusive..he hurt me..and I struggled in that area for a long time..I didn't understand grace..I knew shame, guilt, self-contempt,
other contempt, betrayal, I knew how to be hurt but hated to see anyone else hurt..I felt I was strong enough to take the internal pain but nobody else was..I'd lived w/ it all my life..I judged myself condemned..so when others condenmed me for things and accused me of things..(whether or not I was guilty of those things or not) it added to my own self-contempt..and other-contempt..that to me was love..as long as they treated me the way I felt I deserved to be loved..I was okay..anything different wasn't love..love couldn't be compassionate, kind, giving, sharing, gentle, acceptance..because it went against everything I knew to be true about love..everything I was taught love was supposed to be like..which is why so many of us who have grown up in homes like this continue in abusive relationships..and it isn't until we learn that everything we ever knew to be true is a LIE!!! that the people who were supposed to protect us didn't..and we look at reality that
the people who were supposed to love us the most
as children..committed a crime/sin against us..that we can begin to heal..the hardest words to ever come out of my mouth was when I had to admit to myself that my father was a criminal..
he was a pedophile..and had he done to someone else what he had done to me he'd have gone to jail..yet, even with acknowledging that..he was still my father..and I still loved him..I began to really understand when God's word says..God Hates the sin..but not the sinner..he hates what we do..but not us..and I was able to really feel God's grace and compassion..I read the story in the bible about the adultress woman so many times..I could relate to her..everyone including herself..was condemning her..As Ray Boltz sings in his song...All She saw were the stones..and she looked up and seen Christ standing there full of love and compassion..no contempt, no judgement..just compassion..I know she was brought to tears..but that is where your wife needs to be..that is where true healing comes from..knowing what God says is true..<p>Although your wife probably hates God, because how can a supposed loving God allow this to happen??
I faced that too..and had to understand free will..I know God prompts my heart between right and wrong..just as I am sure He prompted my fathers..and I had to acknowledge that "I" don't always follow His prompting just as my father didn't all those years ago..my dad made wrong choices..just as I have made wrong choices..and I understood it's NOT what God wanted..But short of killing my father..or me..He couldn't stop it..without forcing HIS will onto my dad..so He took what happened to me..and is using that for HIS GLORY!!! Making his word true.." And we know that all things work together for good to them that Love God, to them who are called according to his purpose." <p>And God used Dr. Allender's, and Susan Forwards book's as two of the many tools to help me in my healing..for me to understand the dynamics of what I felt inside..and the thing is..the signs and symptoms can descibe the dynamics of any form of abuse..not just sexual..<p>Dr Allender discussed three types of women..the party girl, the tough girl, and the good girl--These are just a few examples..<p>the tough girl has the attitude that she doesn't need anyone..for anything..she can do it all by herself..she thinks she has no 'needs' to need anything from anyone is a weakness..emotions are controlled..she can spot a phoney miles away..<p>the good girl is controlled, lonely, passive,
and full of self-contempt..they are sacrificial..
doesn't know how to accept help from others so she doesn't inconvience them, but always goes out of her way even if it is an inconvience to help them..she's a martyr..she gives and gives of herself and can't so no, and when someone gives back to her..she feels she 'owes' them something..
she wants to please everyone..she will draw support from others but only be used by them..<p>the party girl is a combination of the two..full of paradoxes..easy-going, mellow, intense, inconsistant..has the ability to hate herself and others at the same time..yet, can draw you into a relationship and then turn and run for no reason..
when she allows herself to agonize over a hurt or loss she views it as pointless (the Tough girl see it as weak, the good girl see's it as selfish)
she won't allow herself to be troubled over problems because she knows it will require honesty within herself..it's easier to cry about it for a minute and the walk away from it..instead of face it..(much like an alcoholic, have that drink instead of facing the problem) she's more of the seductive one..but her methods of relating are
start-up, enjoyment, use then sabatoge the relationship because they are getting to close..<p>as I said these are just some brief descriptions on styles of relating that Dr. Allender discusses in his book..but he has so much more information in there that can be helpful...<p>And yes, you can learn all you can about it, and change yourself...but your wife also needs to want to change..she needs to know that she's loveable just as she is..even though she doesn't feel she that way inside..<p>I've been blest that my father has changed..at least it appears so on the surface..I don't believe he's gone to God in repentance of the damage he caused me..or fully understands God's grace..but I know..He's changed..as I've been able to sit and talk to him about the pain and hurt..and him listen..he still hasn't fully admitted the real damage..he's admitted he abused me..to me, and nobody else..and all he says..is I was a different person back then..I was a drunk and I don't remember what all I did..and I'm sorry I hurt you..which is a beginning..God can work from there if he allows it..if he's willing to really listen..I told him I don't hate him..but, I hate what he did to me..and that I forgive him
and that I love him..our relationship is still strained..but..I know in time..that can change too..and I trust God to work in His heart as He has mine..to help him understand God's true grace and compassion..<p>Like I said before..If you have any questions..feel free to ask..

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>nice post TR, this is stuff I never knew, not having had to deal with it, but it is probably good background for everyone to be aware of re this very big problem for many women...so we can at least understand a little bit if we find ourselves needing to be helpful/supportive/understanding to someone.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
TR- SNL, It's not just women who have been violated like this..it's men too..it's said that
1 in 9 men have also been sexually abused..
Although I think it may be more than that because men tend to keep more things inside..and don't open up the same way most women do..<p>I personally know 4 men who have lived it..because I have been so open with them about my own past..they have opened up to me about theirs because they knew I would understand..to at least some degree the pain they endured..<p>two of these men I have known since Jr. High, one I have known since I was like 4 years old..two of these men my ex-husband accused me of having affairs with..because we talked..I was their support group..they all know each other..but none of them know about the other having gone through the same things..because they still live with shame and guilt that they couldn't stop it..they weren't physically strong enough to stop it..they are now..because physical strength has become their way of survival..Nobody will EVER do that to me again..attitude..I will never be to weak to protect myself again..I wish they would talk to each other..but it's not my place to tell the others..because that would betray their trust in me..so all I can do is listen to and pray for these men..that God will work in their lives to find the support of other men who have lived it also..and give them the strength to learn to speak out against it..

Tr...I don't know your story, are you a WS or BS? I appreciate your openess, I really saw a lot of my wife in your life experience...Thanks for the input, I'll let you know when I need some more info....

In many ways I was both...I ended up having an EA,
after I'd started healing emotionally..w/ someone who was very compassionate, loving, gentle, caring..everything..that was just the opposite of what I had in my marriage..when I realized what it was he and I had..that was missing in my marriage I ended the relationship..and confessed everything..talked to my then husband and asked for him to go to counseling, quit drinking..and
well basically get himself help so that we could work on the marriage..because I knew..I couldn't change him..he could only change himself..but, he doesn't feel he needs to change..he felt I needed to change..I had the problems because I didn't like him calling me names, I didn't like his being gone so much and not being here, but then I didn't like his drinking when he was here, I didn't like the way he didn't want me to have friends..he didn't like any of the friends I did have..I should just accept that's how marriage is..and thats how he is..and well..I accepted thats how he is..BUT...not how marriage is..he didn't want me working..or going to school..the only reason I'd 'want' to do that is so I could leave him..because as he put it.."you just want to be single" leaving the underlying threat that if I did those things..he would leave because I didn't 'need' him..he'd promise me year after year that he would change..he'd find another job..he'd be home..but he never would..<p>I went over the emotional needs w/ him as defined on this site..he got angry..and verbal because I didn't have the exact same needs he has..because in his mind..we were married..we were "ONE PERSON"
and I shouldn't need anything different than he needed..just like my I shouldn't like anyone he didn't like...he told me I should have married an f'n preacher..just many things..he'd accused me of
many affairs...he always told me..the only reason men like you is for sex..I didn't want to believe that..I wanted so badly to believe that men could actually like me for who I was as a person..and not just for sex..which is something OM taught me..that YES, men could like me..and love me..for who I am as a person..and it not be about sex..<p>Like I said, I'd ended the relationship w/ the OM..and tried to work on the marriage..he didn't think he needed to change..I couldn't take it anymore..and basically told him..you have a choice..you can either find another job that your home all the time..quit drinking..go to counseling..or find someplace else to stay the one weekend a month that your in town..well..he chose to take two weeks vacation and move out..because
there was nothing wrong w/ him..I had the affair, I had the problem with the way he treated me..so I had the problems not him..well..in a way he was right..I took it for years thinking that was normal..so I definatly had a problem..he moved out..april of 2000<p>I see you seen there was a problem in how you treated your wife and you changed that..and she couldn't handle those changes..because it would require her to face the pain inside herself..and apparently she's not ready for that..My ex didn't want to change..didn't think he needed to change..
he wasn't the one who had all the problems..I was..but, when I started to heal..he couldn't handle the changes I was making in myself..I was becoming to independant of him..and he didn't like that..he wanted to keep things as they were..him in control of me..

Ok TR: Here's my situation, My wife and I are 1,200 miles apart. After the 8th affair I decided to move back to my home state, we had already seperated 5 months prior, she moved out. Now that I'm this far away, what could possibily be done? There's OM'(s) in the picture, divorce to be final in May, says she feels she's happy now..<p>Based on your knowledge - is she cured now that she's away from me?<p>Will the same issue be there in her still with OM in the picture? Or does he come and all is well now?<p>How could I be the cause of all her pain and OM steps in and she's made whole? Is this and illusion or is hse really OK now?<p>Can she have Sex with OM and be fine now? even though she left me out of betrayal?<p>I would like to know your thoughts and input.

EverlastingCompassion:
[QB]Ok TR: Here's my situation, My wife and I are 1,200 miles apart. After the 8th affair I decided to move back to my home state, we had already seperated 5 months prior, she moved out. Now that I'm this far away, what could possibily be done? <p>TR- Try and be her friend when she needs someone to talk too, don't judge her..just let her know your still there if she needs to talk..<p>
Based on your knowledge - is she cured now that she's away from me?<p>TR- Being away from you does not 'cure' her..the only help is counseling..and learning a new thought process about herself..<p>Will the same issue be there in her still with OM in the picture? Or does he come and all is well now?<p>TR- If she's not gotten help, yes the same issues will be there..doesn't matter who is in the picture..and if they marry once your divorce is final..I'd say in about 1 to 2 years the same issues would begin to resurface...if not sooner..
although in some occassions it may take longer..
but if kids are involved..sometimes certain birthdays and ages will trigger memories..
especially if they look like her..<p>How could I be the cause of all her pain and OM steps in and she's made whole? Is this and illusion or is hse really OK now?<p>TR- Your not the 'cause' of all her pain..just as my ex wasn't the 'cause' of all mine..but by your not knowing and understanding the depth of her problems..your actions probably triggered things in her that she's not even aware of...and won't be aware of until she begins to go back and face the hurts head on..acknowledge them..put a name to those feelings..and change her thinking patterns about herself...Not being a professional...but just based on having been there..it's an illusion
if she's not gotten help...(I had a counselor tell me it takes a good 18 months of intensive counseling to even begin to hit the core issues..and then it takes another 12 months to relearn everything you'd been taught, depending on how long the abuse went on and how bad it was)<p>Can she have Sex with OM and be fine now? even though she left me out of betrayal?<p>TR- Yes, and No..she can have sex w/ him now because there isn't the bond..her relationship
with him isn't the same as with you..but once she begins to get the emotional closeness that she really craves..it will scare her and unless she's ready to face it..she'll run again..she'll do everything she can to sabatage their relationship..because thats how she relates..thats all she knows..<p>when the 'fun' is gone from the relationship..and it's the day to day stuff..she's not emotionally prepared for that..because emotionally she's still stuck in childhood..then when he requires more of a commitment from her..to really be a part of the relationship..if she doesn't get help..she'll bolt..she'll find someone else to have 'fun' with..<p>I know your seperated..but if the two of you have kids then you'll still be a part of her life..and the one thing you can give her is stability..be consistant w/ your kids..read the books I recommended and they may offer you some insight on
how you can help her..even as just a friend..it will probably be hard to do..but if you really love her and want the best for her..then you'll help her by just being there for her when she's hurt..you'll need to put your feelings aside and just listen..not everyone is capable of that though..so don't be hard on yourself if you can't be..but you can still encourage her..you can even send her a copy of The Wounded Heart..she may get mad..toss it aside..I did..but..she may keep it..read little bits of it..get angry..toss it aside again..pick it up..read some more..get angry..toss it aside..and all the while God works on the heart..till you pick it up and read it..
Like I said..it took me three months to read the book..<p>What she is really looking for and doesn't know it..is a friend..a man who will treat her with respect..and not expect, push, coerce, manipulate her into bed..she needs someone who will tell HER NO!!! She will try to wile her way into a man like thats bed..and think there is something wrong either with her..(not attractive enough) or him..
but if he really loves her..and treats her w/ the respect she's never gotten and teaches her, or even tells her she can say NO, she has a right to say NO (Something she's probably never heard) that she has a right to say NO, don't do that..
it will help her..so if you can stay there and just be her friend..she may one day realize how much you really love her..for her..and not just for sex..

Thanks TR - Thats very, very good information...I'm very thankful for your honesty, not everyone can tell there life story as an open book before so many people. I do want the best for my wife...<p>I have to go there in May for my daughters senior graduation....Our divorce day is 6 days prior, I don't see how could she do such a thing and make our daughter suffer in her memory that her parents divorce date was 6 days prior to her graduation day?<p>This will be my first time seeing them since July 2001....<p>I do have a question? After the 8th affair while I lived in the same city as her, she refused to see me, call me, come by , even turned my D's against me, I was left all alone there no friends or family, She threaten to call the police the day I was leaving to say by to my daughters so I didn't get to say goodby...After I left and arrived to my State she cryed why? why? why? why did you do such a thing? Why did you leave me?<p>That kinda floored and shocked me because, The I'm not in love with you, don't ever call me, stay away from me, I'm not attracted to you, etc...all this was so strong with her, 8 guys in the picture then she throws the why, why, why at me.<p>She emailed me the other day and asked how long do I plan to stay when I come...again she says, "Well I'll only see you at the event" once thats over I have other plans with friends and I don't plan to see you after that.....you can spend additional time with your daughters.<p>Its this real with her or is she fronting?<p>Anyway I'll get the books - I almost want to say " THe wounded heart" is what I bought my wife along with the workbook, I think.<p>Thanks!!

EverlastingCompassion:
[QB]Thanks TR - Thats very, very good information...I'm very thankful for your honesty, not everyone can tell there life story as an open book before so many people. I do want the best for my wife...<p>TR- well, thats how we heal..we share, we talk about it..it makes it more real..also helps us realize how far we have come..<p>I have to go there in May for my daughters senior graduation....Our divorce day is 6 days prior, I don't see how could she do such a thing and make our daughter suffer in her memory that her parents divorce date was 6 days prior to her graduation day?<p>TR- I don't know either..as my kids have always been my first priority..and their mental well being..(even through my EA) they came first..and
he respected that..<p>I do have a question? After the 8th affair while I lived in the same city as her, she refused to see me, call me, come by , even turned my D's against me, I was left all alone there no friends or family, She threaten to call the police the day I was leaving to say by to my daughters so I didn't get to say goodby...After I left and arrived to my State she cryed why? why? why? why did you do such a thing? Why did you leave me?<p>TR- this is complicated..she has an aversion to commitment..she's terrified of it..as far as committing her entire being to a relationship..
(alot of ppl are like this) and as long as you were married..and there for her..she couldn't commit to someone else..now that your gone..on one
level she's terrified that OM will require that same emotional committment of her..that you wanted..<p>if you look back over the years of your marriage..
you said she had like 8 affairs..yet, you never really did anything..until you began to change..
when you began to change emotionally and expected more of a commitment to you and your marriage I bet she got worse..very ugly..mean..lashed out in anger..which was actually her fear of having to really give herself emotionally to another person
who might hurt her..she doesn't trust you not too,
how can she?? everyone in her past has used and abused her..she's terrified..that once you get to know 'her' the real her..you won't love her anymore..how could you?? she's dirty..(in her head) she lives in shame..and guilt..and NOBODY could really love her..(even though in reality..they do) she just doesn't feel it inside herself..she probably blames herself for the abuse..(you should tell her she's not to blame for what happened to her) in her head she's probably gone over a thousand times what SHE could have done differently..but there is NOTHING SHE COULD HAVE DONE!!! She just doesn't see it..so she blames herself..her mom didn't protect her..her dad certainly didn't..so why should she trust you too?? And now you've left..and proven that she was right all along..she can't trust you to be there..
(but..you were there..you just couldn't take it any longer) which is why I say..if you can..be there as her friend when she just needs to talk..<p>You can if she asks again why did you leave me..
say..I didn't leave you..I stayed, You left..let her know that even though you may have left physically you are still there as her friend..
but that she left out of fear..she'll get angry
and she'll blame you..let her know that yes, you made mistakes..and if you have to list what they were..show her you were responsible for your actions..NOT HER..so she can take responsibility for her own..<p>You also mentioned that you moved to be near your family..did you not have a friendship base there?
What about your job? You need friends of your own..just as she does..a marriage partner can't meet ALL of your needs..and they can't be expected too..they can meet most of them...but not all.
so try and make friends of your own..join a church
get involved in a sunday school class, or in a sports team at work..or something..<p>
That kinda floored and shocked me because, The I'm not in love with you, don't ever call me, stay away from me, I'm not attracted to you, etc...all this was so strong with her, 8 guys in the picture then she throws the why, why, why at me.<p>TR- Because you took her security away..she doesn't know how to give emotionally without facing the past..<p>She emailed me the other day and asked how long do I plan to stay when I come...again she says, "Well I'll only see you at the event" once thats over I have other plans with friends and I don't plan to see you after that.....you can spend additional time with your daughters.<p>TR- Let her know thats fine..and go out with your daughters..and enjoy your time with them..don't down their mother..you can let them know you still love her..but that it was painful for you to see her with someone else..and you needed time to heal and think things through..<p>Its this real with her or is she fronting?<p>TR- She's scared..so for her it's real because it's ALL she knows and understands...as I have learned through my own research..she's still emotionally a child..stuck emotionally in her understandings of relationships as she understood them when the abuse began..<p>The sad thing is..I am finding ppl who grew up in an abusive enviroment..unless they were removed from it at a very early age..or it didn't go on for very long..or if they had healthy relationships to counter act the abusive ones..
most all are stuck emotionally the same way in terms of relating..<p>my ex grew up in an alcoholic home..started drinking at a young age..and his style of relating is immature..like mine was..as I grew up emotionally..and he didn't..I noticed this more..
and as I have done research on the topic for a class paper..I am finding Psychologist say the same things..be they Christian, or secular..it's something that happened in the learning centers of the synapes portion of the brain..(although it can be corrected..even w/ out physical surgery) it's more of an emotional and mental surgery..<p>Again, I hope this helps..My prayers are with you..

Thanks TR - Yes, commitment is a big issue and yes, when I started asking more responsibility in moving foward in things of life, yes she started bucking.....I'll get back with you once I speak to her over the phone and get a better feel what is happening of late and try a different approach even though the DV-day is in about 8 weeks, I know she is suffering from extreme guilt from it all because she is a christian also for many years.

You know, I was thinking about this after I posted earlier..and was wondering about her affairs..<p>You said she's had 8 of them..have they been secretive, or out in the open? Meaning did you
have to do some snooping to get the information about them or did she confess them herself?<p>I'm asking because I wonder if she may on a subconscience level view them in terms of her having 'control' over the relationships..it struck me really weird today..it was like..WOAH..She's
having these affairs..they are in secret..just like the abuse was done in secret..and if she blames herself..thinking she caused the abuse in some way then in her head..she controlled the abuse..but I know I blamed myself..when I had no control at all..<p>But something else I was thinking about..where you were asking if it would be easier for her to have sex with this man than with you..and does that mean she's healed..<p>I was thinking about this..I know for myself..when I was little I fought the arousal my body had when my dad touched me...because this is a NATURAL REACTION to sexual touch..it's how we are created..so maybe..in her head the only way she can enjoy sex is in 'secret' like with the fear of getting caught..like the fear of someone walking in on the abuse..of someone cathching them..and someone finally finding out and making it stop..
but nobody ever made it stop..even if they did walk in on it..just like you--never put your foot down about the affairs and said..NO MORE..<p>Until Now when you left..You didn't stay this time and tell her..I love you..but this is wrong..You deserve more than that..you deserve to be treated better than a backstreet whore, because YOUR NOT!! You are so much more than that, You are such a wonderful woman and I love you...and our marriage deserves more than what he had in the past..and I'd like to try to get that..but the only way we can get to that point is if we work together..but if you can't even try here, then I am sorry, because I love you to much to stay and watch you continually hurt yourself over and over..<p>Try that approach..and see how it goes..

TR - The first 5 affairs occured while in the same house. They were discoved because she had a printed log of a online affair conversation,then I discovered cellphone, secret email accounts, etc... at that time she was real cold to me....but I never knew of an affair...<p>She does carry a strong element control about her, Her words are "WHat ever she does she has to be in control of it to make it succeed" It was this way with our finances - ALL control or take no part. These affairs were/are in secret, I think she see's the divorce to justify them openly.<p>When she confessed them the 5 affairs in counseling she said it was wrong but then 5 days later goes and buy one of the married men clothes..that she never met physically he lived in another state 1,500 miles away , 2 weeks after that she bought airline tickets to see him and another guy in same state 2 diff cities, but I don't what took place but she did go.<p>She was sexually abused at 13 yrs old by her step-father - she told me her mother walked in on him/them after several nights of this and blamed her for all this and called her a Whore...Her mother kept the step dad in the house anyway.....<p>Until I discovered my wifes affair in Jan 2001, she opened up for the first time in 20 years and told me stuff that happened during the sexual abuse... IF I mention now what she told me in all her tears and confession of discovery day, she says "I didn't say that" I tell her well how else would I know what your mother said did to you and your step-father in such detail unless you told me? Her mother died in 1998 and my wife said all this in Jan 2001?<p>In dec 2001 4 months ago- I called her cellphone and a guy answered the phone - He said what do you want? She belongs to me now, you messed up and didn't handle your business, of course I exchange some words and he threaten to come kill me if necessary...My wife gets on the phone and says thats what you get and says I have male friends now and you can't tell me what to do anymore. I was stunned and crushed because the guy sounded like a thug and a controller...Now this about guy number 10 at this point<p>Just weeks prior to this she said " Do you think I tried to be involved with all those people" Also other things she says.. I quote her back to things she said and she say " I never said that"....Very confusing at times...<p>Of late I've heard her make comments like she's caught in a relationship or something, never said she has a boyfriend, its still a secret, so she thinks..she slips up and says stuff though if she is in a relationship though...I think the divorce is all centered around swinging to OM...<p>She made a comment last 2 weeks ago and said "you know you are a good looking man and I won't be surprized if some woman snatch you up real quick and said call me crazy but I perfer to be friends with you even after the divorce....Problem is - I'm not interested in nobody...What was that about?<p>Do you think she will be excited to see me in May? or since the divorce will be final she's lost it all about me?<p>Our counsellor did say, there's nobody she believes that can lead her other than me. Said she see's me as a way out of darkness with the help of the Lord because she knows what I stand for...He said she's in darkness but she see's me like a flashlight....so I don't know where this is going....<p>If I ever say in those emails you violated our marriage vows talking about Sex and positions with those mean and telling them that you love them, she now says they discussed sex but didn't have or promised each other Sex?.... I feel like talking her is like talking to Bill Clinton about it.....I saw 32 emails of perversion with one guy, she wouldn't delete them after the affairs and confession to the counsellor...<p>Her comments to me about that "I love her and don't wont her to hurt herself" was' Well sometimes you need to let people go and let them do as they please just like a drug addict and when they're ready to stop or learn a lession then that has to be there decision and not yours' so back off and let me do this"....I want to be me good or bad...<p>So here we are today, with this attitude..

EverlastingCompassion:<p>
And she's right..sometimes you just need to let them go and allow them to suffer their own consequences..<p>Sounds like she is denying what she said before because she's still not ready to face the truth..
sounds like she wants too, but it really is painful to discuss..<p>You said her mom walked in on the abuse and blamed her..that is actually more common than ppl think..
which exasperates and confirms the childs beliefs that they 'caused' the abuse..they did something to provoke it..when in reality they didn't..which also destroys the child's self-respect even futher..and it prevents them from really ever feeling loved by anyone else..<p>"How could you really love me when my own dad left me?" <p>(also common in divorces..when one parent doesn't keep in touch with the kids it's causes a fear of abandonment) <p>"How can you really love me, when my mom wouldn't even protect me??" "How can I expect YOU to protect me when my mom didn't?" <p>"My mom didn't parents didn't love me enough to help me, so therefore I am not lovable"<p>there are just so many issues she has to deal with..you can't force her to face those issues..
she has to be ready to face them..<p>I can't tell you to go ahead with the divorce..
but you can maybe talk to your lawyer and let him know..that you think it could work if you try marriage counseling..the judge may grant a postponement on the divorce and allow a three month mandatory marriage counseling..they don't always do that...but sometimes they do..and if you think she's worth it..then give it a shot..and then find a Christian based counselor..who has experience with abuse issues as well..and continue to read up on plan A, and put that into practice during that time..

TR - You have very good insight to this type of behavior...Thanks.....She does take things as her fault which her mother did blame her which also bleed over to marriage issues "Her words "Its all my fault".... so now it all built up and exploded...She always says now "I'm not taking the blame for how you feel or anything thats happened"!!, things have been my fault all my life and I'm tired of that stuff!!.....<p>
Therefore these affairs she feels she don't need to apologize because she's done it all her life...In her head of course".....<p>These affairs never occured until the 17th year of our marriage in Nov 2000, she was always faithful and a good wife...<p>As far as divorce, she seperated, she filed, No lawyer involved we agreed on everything, once again she controlled it all, she feels she coming out on top and dogged me in the process, she has her things and her men....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EverlastingCompassion:
[QB]TR - You have very good insight to this type of behavior...Thanks.....She does take things as her fault which her mother did blame her which also bleed over to marriage issues "Her words "Its all my fault".... so now it all built up and exploded...She always says now "I'm not taking the blame for how you feel or anything thats happened"!!, things have been my fault all my life and I'm tired of that stuff!!.....<p>
TR- The sad thing is..she will continue to carry this self-blame into all relationships..until she faces the pain..and you can't control that..<p>Therefore these affairs she feels she don't need to apologize because she's done it all her life...In her head of course".....<p>TR- She'll face it one day..and accept the truth..
what happened to her as a child wasn't her fault..
but it is her problem that she hasn't faced it..
and is responsible for that..and the choices she's making..that I think is the one of the hardest things to accept as well..is realizing that YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE...and then you blame yourself for not seeing it to begin with..and then it's a matter of accepting the fact that okay..this is what I understood..these are the choices I made based on that knowledge..they weren't the right choices..so where do I go from here?? How do I correct these mistakes?? And then working to correct them..and accepting those mistakes you can't fix..<p>
As far as divorce, she seperated, she filed, No lawyer involved we agreed on everything, once again she controlled it all, she feels she coming out on top and dogged me in the process, she has her things and her men....<p>TR- It was also your choice to just except it..
and not fight for your marriage..you can change your mind..you can say NO This is not acceptable to me..I think our marriage is worth saving..or you can accept that it's over..and move on..you can still fight because it's not over yet..until those papers are signed..you just need to know what it is you really want..

TR - On the issue of the Divorce - I fought not to sign for many months, but she begged me to let her go and stop holding her agianst her will. Just as Dr.Harley says, you can't work with a spouse that still has OM in the picture, and she had 8....Therefore she said I was a wimp and passive, can't make decisions, etc...because I wouldn't sign. Therefore I signed because In the state she filed in was a No-Fault law for divorce so she didn't need my involvement, but if I didn't sign anything I would have lost visitation rights to my daughters and lost all my possessions, so I signed for those reasons and not the divorce.<p>Manipulation has been a strong aspect in all her ways I don't know what will happen in the future.<p>Thanks for all your input, I think it great to see that a person[you] can recover from such a ordeal. With her in the affairs do you think the Other Men are seeing the bad stuff yet?

Don't know if they will see the bad stuff..from my own experience.. <p>when I was younger and before marriage my relationships were sex based..if/when they became emotional I ran..as I got older..after my first marriage ended..(he met someone else, I let him go, didn't fight it, and honestly, I was of the mindset that there were other men out there) and we divorced..I was in counseling, and church..growing both spiritually and emotionally met my second husband..who well..long story..was
controlling..and I wasn't strong enough in my own self..that I quit going to counseling thinking I don't need this anymore..I still looked for other peoples opinion and valued theirs more than my own..and well..I screwed up..I was looking for a friend..not a sex partner..and he kept throwing up
my past relationships to 'prove' I was lying..and basically to tear me down emotionally..and like I said..emotionally I wasn't strong enough in myself
to tell him to basically take a flying leap from the nearest bridge..and I shut down emotionally again..when I tried to get that..well..he couldn't /wouldn't give it...doesn't know whatever..but were now divorced..<p>and now that I am healing..I want both..I want the friendship first..and the sexual part of the relationship...but I am no longer willing to sacrafice myself..for someone else to be happy..<p>So to answer your question...No, I don't think they see that side of her..and I honestly don't think they will unless she marries one of them..
or one tries to get emotionally close to her..and expects emotional closeness from her..then she'll either face herself..or she'll run again..and sabatage her own relationship..because she doesn't feel she deserves anything more than what she is getting..which is a sad place to be in..<p>So even though you love her..and your divorce is pending..start moving on with your own life..work on you..figure out what it is that you would do differently in a relationship now..and expect nothing but the best..treat yourself and others with respect..and expect to be treated with respect by others as well..