"Your right your wife has a list. She just hasn't found this site yet."<p>not sure what you mean here<p>"No where in your orginal post did i see or get the feeling that you brought any of this to her attention."<p>You need to reread it then. I've said through here that we've talked at different times, and she usually gets upset, pissed, angry, defensive, confrontational you name it. I've posted all this read it again.<p>
"Nor did i see you say but i do things like this that might irrate."<p>What are you trying to say?<p>"You definitely sound unhappy
maybe possibly falling out of love? Already have?"<p>Unhappy/ Depends on the day, as I've also said, I go from thinking she's great to mr hyde. The yo-yo gets old.<p> "Getting tired of being the sole provider?"<p>I wouldn't mind it if it were appreciated. I get paid very well, it gets old. It gets tiring whe you provide and it's just assumed it'll be there. It gets old when the other person just assumes tha they can make any decision, and the other will be there to do it with a smile <p>
Have you been talking to other people and envying their relationships?
just wondering...... <p>Envying? Maybe, I have enough smarts to know that even if I left, the next wouldn't have the same problems, but would have different ones. Maybe that's part of the reason I stay. Why go through all the bs just to end up in the same place.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tengu:
<strong>I guess I weigh and decide which is worse. She wants me to do something I automaticly weigh how much trouble it is to do it, vs the war if I don't. Let's see, 15 min to do it, or a weekend of misery, plus a guilt trip when she decides to "forgive" me. I'll take the 15 min. I have drawn a few lines in the sand, and you are right, she won't cross them, but she's not opposed to walking along them, and kicking sand over the line.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You left the deferred payments out of your calculations, tengu: your growing resentment.<p>Is your wife selfish and manipulative and controlling with everyone, tengu, or is she primarily that way with you? If it's just with you, then I suspect your wife may be struggling with an issue quite typical of those whose boundaries have become enmeshed: the fear of losing one's identity. The mind reacts to this fear in pretty much the same way it reacts to the fear of death.<p>My wife never seemed to be able to understand the difference between making compromises and compromising her self. In our marriage, everything had to be done her way and in her time, or she felt like she was being smothered. In her dealings with other people she was very generous and accommodating, but a mild request from me was perceived as a threat.<p>Someone like that cannot even comprehend the kind of mutuality you are talking about, tengu. If one partner is not in control then the other must be; and not being the one in control means being vulnerable to obliteration.

"You left the deferred payments out of your calculations, tengu: your growing resentment."<p>I haven't left them out, I am realizing it, guess that is my problem<p>
"Is your wife selfish and manipulative and controlling with everyone, tengu, or is she primarily that way with you?"<p>Mostly with me. Anyone else? The love her and say how great she is. Of course this really helps me with the she's great she's mr hyde issues<p> "If it's just with you, then I suspect your wife may be struggling with an issue quite typical of those whose boundaries have become enmeshed: the fear of losing one's identity. "<p>She has said many time she's lost who she is. Which pisses me off, because I've never ever told her she can't do something. If she's want to do something I've always been there, to the point of paying for things we really didn't have money for, so she could do what she wanted. She wants to go see family, no problem, she wants to have her friends over no problem, she wants to go away for the weekend, no problem, she wants to go out with a friend no problem, I watch the kids, and pay for it.<p>
"The mind reacts to this fear in pretty much the same way it reacts to the fear of death."<p>I can see that. And I see her reacting the same way, trying to hold on tighter.<p>
"My wife never seemed to be able to understand the difference between making compromises and compromising her self. In our marriage, everything had to be done her way and in her time, or she felt like she was being smothered. In her dealings with other people she was very generous and accommodating, but a mild request from me was perceived as a threat."<p>Were we secretly married to the same woman?<p>
"Someone like that cannot even comprehend the kind of mutuality you are talking about, tengu. If one partner is not in control then the other must be; and not being the one in control means being vulnerable to obliteration. "<p>I think you hit the nail on the head, about her actions and how she feels. So are you trying to tell me I have no hope of making any change? That I might as well decide to fold or to leave?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tengu:
<strong>Were we secretly married to the same woman?
...
I think you hit the nail on the head, about her actions and how she feels. So are you trying to tell me I have no hope of making any change? That I might as well decide to fold or to leave?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You are not the first person to come here and describe her. Neither was I. Every situation is different, but the patterns repeat over and over again.<p>I don't know what the prognosis is, but I am not telling you to give up hope. I am just telling you not to wear yourself out trying to solve the wrong problem in the wrong way.<p>I struggled with depression for about six years, blaming myself for the problems in my marriage. I read book after book about marriage, trying to figure out where we had gone wrong and what we could do about it. But it wasn't until my wife finally left, without discussion or warning or explanation, completely cutting off all communication and making increasingly bizarre accusations against me, that I broadened my search for an explanation beyond the marriage and our relationship. That's when I learned that my situation was far from unique.<p>I wonder now what might have happened if I had recognized the true nature of the problem earlier. It might not have helped my wife, who might not have been able to listen. But it would have saved me from a world of confusion and self-doubt.<p>I think your first priority should be to work on learning to establish your own boundaries, so that you will be able to act with self-confidence no matter what your wife throws up against you. Be loving and giving in the style of Plan A, but break the cycle of manipulation, which is not only wearing you down, but is enabling your wife's unhealthy behavior.<p>I think your second priority should be to help your wife learn to establish her boundaries. This is tough, and is better done with the help of a counselor if it can be done at all. You may not have a chance: your wife may react to your establishment of healthy boundaries for yourself by going into a panic and fleeing. (I believe something like that that is what happened with my wife.) But your wife's actions and reactions are out of your control. The only thing you can control is what you do, and you must do something, because your marriage cannot be sustained in its current form.<p>At best, both of you will become stronger people, capable of both independence and interdependence (the mutuality you want). At worst, you will become stronger but will lose your wife.

Gnome, You told me what I think I was afraid to admit. Give up hope? I think I did that long ago. Maybe I am wrong, but I think a lot of guys would have ran for the hills long ago. I guess it's been drilled in my head from long ago, when a guy leaves, he's the ******* that abandoned his wife/family. When the wife leaves, it's because of the ******* abusive no good husband. Right or wrong, I thing these are things that were drilled in my head as a kid. I think for a long time I admitted what you are saying, but then fell for all the "I love you so much" speaches, maybe like the battered wife that takes back the husband that just beat her up, then promises change? I think (maybe me, maybe all guys) feel a certain sense of obligation to provide and protect, so since she doesn't work, and has the MS issue, plus 2 kids - I feel like I would be abandoning my family if I left. Maybe she knows that and it gives her more power, after all, one of the princapals of negotiation - knowledge is power. <p>her reacting? I really hate to say it, it's crueal and cold, but I really feel it's the truth. She has very parasitic behavior. Most parasites suck the host dry, killing them self in the process, and will fight any attempt to remove them, often killing the host in the process. Am I far off here? So what do I do? My best friend left his wife for much the same reason when they had a 1 year old. I thought that would make her fear the same, it didn't. Her sister's hubby left, and basiclly refused to speak to her, and has not to this day. Maybe for simmilar reasons. So again, you are not telling me to give up, and I am not asking for an answer, but, it sounds like you are saying there isn't much that can be done to change her?

You cannot change her, tengu. But that doesn't mean she can't change.<p>Your wife can change herself, and she can allow herself to be changed. But it is her choice, and hers alone. There are things you can do that may help her decide who she wants to be, and that may help her become that person, but how she responds to your offers of aid is up to her.<p>Do you think your wife likes being a parasite? My wife did not, and I think in a twisted way she thought that she was doing me some kind of favor by leaving me. If your wife has the strength to face herself and her fears, she may choose a better path.<p>I don't know that you will need to "abandon" your wife. If you change yourself, the dynamics of your relationship will necessarily change too. Part of the establishment of boundaries is the establishment of consequences, and there is a good chance that your wife will break one way or the other.<p>I say again: Start by deciding who you want to be and what matters most to you. Become the person you want to live with (because after all, you do have to live with yourself). Let your wife make her own choices.<p>For what it's worth, I have not given up hope in my marriage. For me, marriage is a sacred covenant, and to repudiate it would mean far more than repudiating various legal and economic responsibilities: It would mean abandoning my faith and my integrity.<p>Furthermore, although I don't know your wife, I do know mine, and I believe that my wife has the strength to do what she needs to do to find happiness - if she chooses to do so. For my part, I choose not to burn any bridges for her, and I accept the consequences of my choice.<p>My values and choices may not be the same as yours, but whatever yours are, I think you would be wise to consider them very carefully, so that you understand them and their ramifications. You may be surprised at what you find.<p>[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: GnomeDePlume ]</p>

Your first post kind of made you look like the selfish person and then the reply made you look defensive. Your problems mirror my own so much it is eerie. My ex did not let me know of his unhappiness either until he found his secretary more appealing and walked out. When we did have communication he called me the "controlling" one but I was only trying to discuss very huge problems in the marriage. Obviously they were never solved and he resented my trying to "change" him. I was a homemaker like your wife and did listen when my ex told me that he didn't want to spend his weekends working on the house. I tried to get as much done during the day so he didn't have much to do at night. I also swam to relieve stress (yes it is stressful to stay at home with kids). I also did lots of volunteer work so I could relate to someone taller than 3 feet. My ex looked upon that as money thrown down the drain since I worked hard with no compensation. He did not realize the emotional benefit I received nor did he care. Talk with your wife and listen to what she says. Don't put her in your shoes, put yourself in her shoes. What would it be like for you at home all day? Taking care of the kids should be the first priority but if she is sleeping in perhaps she is depressed. Talk to your wife and listen to what she says and don't get defensive if you don't like what she says or what we say on this post. We are all hurting and confused and healing.

Gnome, I think you summed up what i concluded long ago - Live mi life as I want it, and she can decide how in turn to live hers with me or not. I don't mean be selfish, and do as I please regardless of everyone else. I think I did that for a short time, and then caved to the demands.<p>erigby, yes it can be erie how much our problems mirror others. I have talked to many people who state the same issues. Makes it seem that much more hopeless. I'd be more than happy to discuss it is she could do so as an adult. I'd be quite happy if she would realize I am not a child, especially not her child. At times it seems like she forgets this. Staying at home was her choice. She's more than welcome to go get a full time job, if she thinks that is so much more fun. I do try to see her point of view, maybe she should try to see mine? As I stated once or twice in here, if she treated a friend like she does me, that friend would most likely not be a friend. Why should a friend get more consideration than I?