I am a very practical person, and do not indulge much in the emotional side of things (as many of you know). So maybe my notions of seperation are a bit different...does that make me wrong? Must I live my life dictated to by the emotional needs of others? If so, maybe that pushes me away...ya know? I am important too, but I don't much feel like it, I feel like there is never ending pressure to turn me into something other than what I am....another fit issue I suppose.<p>I agree with the basic concepts of seperation, that people get "emotional" space from each other, I need that too (yeah I do have some emotions). That means stopping most regular interactions. Not seeing/doing for each other things that one can do for themself. And that is ok. I would not need to be physically seperate to disconnect that way, but I can see where most would...so although I "suggested" I could use the shower (my hovel has no working shower), get food from the fridge (no working kitchen either), use the laundary (no..well you get it) etc....would even be willing to do so when thinker not home, and so forth...it was a SUGGESTION a negotiation. I did not demand it, or get angry. It seems clear she would prefer to have as little contact or PRESENCE (something I find irrational, what difference does it make if she is not home... but I can sorta dimly see emotionally, so fine), if that is what she needs, helps her recover, then I am enthusiastic about it, and will cooperate (even though I don't fully understand it).<p>The other issue is business, we LIVE totally off self-employment, and she is an integral part of this...it is not for MY benefit, it is for everyones (me, children, and HER) benefit too. Her various threats to do less than her full share darn well make me angry....and she knows this, and uses such threats to push my buttons. She has never once told me I can fully count on her to do all her work with the business, cooperate with me fully, etc. etc. I suspect this is solely to keep me off balance, and distress me, it is an excellent weapon, she knows I cannot do this without her, and that I have a very strong sense of responsibility, and that my anxiety level skyrockets when she expresses I shouldn't count on her. And yes that is when I will say angry things, or call names...I am not proud of that, but she has given me a terrific opportunity to learn to deal with such stuff. <p>She doesn't seem to understand I have never trusted her emotionally (with good reason, but that is not my point here), and that telling me I cannot trust her full cooperation with the business is like pouring gasoline on an allready raging emotional fire. I need her to do whatever I ask re the business, and work in it just as hard as I do, this is not suppose to be a vacation for her, while we load up snl with even more stress (as well as lost revenue, cause I cannot do both our jobs), this has nothing to do with the marriage, this is where she works, and if she cannot pull her weight, then why even be married at all? I expect her to put in the same 40-60 hrs a week I do...and I will not budge from that 1 iota. <p>Related to this is the fact that a bunch of stuff associated with the business is stored at home (I am a repair person, and have 100's of parts, material, and myriad of tools)..some in the house, some on the property..... I need unfettererd access to these things, and can need something on a moments notice. If we were divorcing this would not be an issue...we would both have completely functional homes, and I woul relocate all the stuff. This is not possible now, to save money I am living in cramped, primitive circumstances, as well as trying to remodel the place I am staying (something that also makes us some money when done). I need her to understand that, and control her emotions enough to deal with my coming and going some for those reasons. I won't bother, or even talk to her, would call her and let her know I am coming (so am not unannounced), do what I have to do, and quickly leave. I do not find this unreasonable, it is simply economic reality, and responsibility. I also have various records and such that I do need from time to time, and are all in file cabinets in the house, she needs them too, so even if I could take em (which I cannot) that wouldn't work either. IMO a appropriate solution is to try and plan anything I need ahead of time (unless is emergency need) and coordinate with thinker to come over when she is gone, do what I have to do, and leave before she gets back. This may be a home, but it is also a WORKPLACE, and that has different requirements. Let me add something here....making my life more difficult, and stressful WILL NOT make me want to be married more...and if that is the strategy, then well....you that know me can predict it's efficacy.<p>There is also the issue of interactions with kids, I do a lot of mentoring to my young adults. And they can find their way over (I will only be 2 miles away), in their own vehicles...and the phone of course. But I have noticed in many cases here, plan b does not mean one has to see kids away from house, can interract with them at home, the other spouse leaves for that time, or whatever. I would like this option at least on the table. I will have lots of stuff still needs doing at home, organizing, downsizing my stuff etc. (which is another access problem), and could do so in the evening (when thinker was gone) and also interract with kids then, but she won't even discuss it....and I supposedly am the control freak here...yeah, sure I am.<p>Anyways, I am not angry, I think the seperation is very much needed, I am understand thinker needs to disconnect from me, and that my presence interferes with that...but this is not a perfect world, we are not divorcing yet, so are not in full move everything mode, and we have a business to run....my frustration is she will talk about none of this, says I can have no access to anything at all, and that I must do whatever some 3rd party tells me to (steve in this case)...well ya know what, I am not an inmate in a prison, thinker is not my lord and master, and this is my life too, not just hers....and I am going to run MY life as I see fit, if she does not want to reasonably cooperate, so be it....so far this impending seperation "feels" like nothing more than another tool to coerce me with, not a cooperative effort to disconnect our lives, and reduce the stress we place on each other, see where we (each of us) wants to go, and amicably divorce if it comes to that...instead just another thing to fight over....*sigh*.

Guess I will reply to my own thread. One thing I have wondered about it the last year here is how acrimonious marriage is when it gets to sepetation/divorce.....why is that? I have come to beleive it is in part a temperament difference, another one of those uncrossable gulfs, and fit issues. It makes absolutely no sense to me that two people cannot rationally deal with these issues. What purpose is served by being uncooperative, angry, vengeful, depressed etc.... is it really that hard to control ones emotions, and behave in a responsible manner? <p>That is really all that LB'ing is about, behaveing responsibly, and not projecting on to someone else your emotional issues (or manipulatring/controlling them). If you have a life, and history, and kids and care about each other...why is that thrown away in acrimony? Now if your spouse is messing with you, and doing hurtful things, sure, that is a problem. But why can't two people simply be nice to each other and act responsible? I do not mistreat thinker, I have no intentions of ever mistreating her, rejecting her, or distressing her unncessarily...the issue is only are we healthy for each other in a marital relationship (and unlike many of you supposedly, we have had turmoil our entire marriage)...if not, we just end that part of our relationship, and can still have a very close, nurturing relationship, you'd think I was murdering someone, and I deeply resent that, I am important too. IMO if people cannot amicably divorce, there is no reason to be married, it obviously is based on being property in some sense. If a spouse says they just cannot do this (remain in a marital relationship with you), it is not healthy for them, you just let em go....don't you, and adjust your relationship accordinly? But no, the other spouse does everything in their power to manipulated, corece, guilt them into staying, and the relationship gets destroyed in the actimony...why do people do that? If you don't want to be friends with your spouse, why in the world do you want to be married to them? Over the years the many times thinker said she was going to leave me, divorce me, as soon as she had the money, or whatever...I was distressed, but I wasn't angry...if she wanted to go, so be it, I wouldn't stop her, or hate her, and would want to be as connected as possible, didn't have to be married to her. Mostly I was just upset for the kids, didn't seem fair to them (when they were young), and I knew we would probably suffer financially....but I had no real problem with her leaveing emotionally. I dunno, maybe there is something wrong with me, but the notion of making someone "love" me, or binding someone to me just doesn't compute, never did....and to get mad about it boggles my mind, I will never understand that..... how can love ever be about anger?<p>actually what makes me frustrated/angry/LB is unfairness, unreasonableness, irrationality, and complaints that I don't act like a H (meaning do all the emotional stuff whether I "want" to or not)....like this is some kind of game or something....that totally violates my biggest need, radical honesty/honesty and openess. This entire MB effort has been about getting me to act in certain ways, zero effort (except for my efforts here on the board) has been made to understand me, or deal with my issues, it has all been about thinker, and her stuff, and her needs..why is that?<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNL,<p>I know this is such a great adjustment for you but you are right, your way of separating is just not reasonable or typical.<p>What good is it if you are there doing your laundry, taking your showers, coming over to eat, coming over to interact with the children, coming over to get tools...?????<p>Here's my suggestion, do your laundry at the laundry mat(sp?), look for a used working fridge, and temporarily eat out and/or get coolers for food such as sandwiches until you can afford to get a fridge, you and your children will just have to go out for dinner, go to the park or hang out at your new residence, on the tools...either move them to the new residence, or to a storage shed (which doesn't cost that much) or if you have a garage, perhaps agree to only use the garage.<p>
Regarding your company, I think it may be time for you and Thinker to get separate jobs. I know thinker says she can't go back in to nursing but she takes care of your business, then she can get a job working in an office taking care of someone else's business. <p>If you want to keep your company, you may think it can't run without her but there are people out there that you can hire to do what Thinker is doing. <p>On the shower, is there a bathtub, if so use that, if not...Can you get one?<p>Unfortunately, separating temporarily or permanent you guys will have separate homes. Reading your thread, SNL, I think you are being unreasonable in wanting to have all the amenities but not wanting your wife as a husband should.
You don't love Thinker anymore, you and she are making each other miserable, you don't want her as your wife anymore, at least not in the sense a husband should be to his wife, so here's the prize you get....it's called life living away from the family and wife....<p>Also, I think that it will be very good for you to gain some independence, you sound very dependent on Thinker in so many ways. <p>Take care and I wish you luck in your new life,<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>
actually what makes me frustrated/angry/LB is unfairness, unreasonableness, irrationality, and complaints that I don't act like a H (meaning do all the emotional stuff whether I "want" to or not)....like this is some kind of game or something....that totally violates my biggest need, radical honesty/honesty and openess. This entire MB effort has been about getting me to act in certain ways, zero effort (except for my efforts here on the board) has been made to understand me, or deal with my issues, it has all been about thinker, and her stuff, and her needs..why is that?<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL,<p>Everything you wrote on this post sounds like advice you should be giving yourself though. You are trying to control what Thinker wants to do...<p>You want your cake and to eat it too. You don't want marriage but you want to have a nurturing relationship with her...that really sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too. <p>I think it's time to take your own advice guy.<p>ANNA<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

SNL,<p>I may be posting these faster than you can respond but I had some more to add...<p>Your reaction to wanting a separation this way was the same reaction my stbx had also...<p>The people he consulted with, including his friend, tried to tell him it doesn't work that way, but he wouldn't listen...<p>He wanted to come over sit in front of the TV, take a nap, eat dinner sometimes, play with the children on video games...<p>The tension got very high...I didn't want this...he had his own place now...He bullied his way into the house and I felt no control over my life. I didn't want him hanging around my residence anymore, we were separated...<p>He pushed me into taking matters to court...I got a lawyer, and she said, "That he's being unreasonable." The courts think so also, I got temporary orders keeping him out of the house totally...<p>Don't push Thinker into getting temporary orders to keep you out...Quit trying to control her...You are going to cause a battle that you will lose.<p>If you talk to a lawyer you will find out it will probably be very easy for her to get an order making you stay out...Don't let that happen, just do it on your own for now...<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

I feel for you, as I am in the midst of my own misery. I don't understand your whole situation, but I have a question about working things out. I was wondering if the relationship is to the point of needing this much work, then something is obviousy so wrong and needing help, then how do we get our spouse to work on this effectively? If they were capable of doing this in the first place, we wouldn't be in the situation to begin with, right. I think my H needs so much help, and frankly I'm tired of hanging around and waiting for him to acknowledge he even has a problem much less get some help, that I'm now working on getting out altogther. Twenty one years is a lot of my life to just discard, however, I don't want to go thru another 20 like this. But now that I'm finished emotionally, lo and behold he is getting his act together, what everybody hopes for. The problem now is I no longer care. He has hurt me so bad for so long, that I have removed myself from trying. We have been at this point before and it only lasts long enough for me to let my guard down and begin to trust him again, then boom...it's gone and he's back to this other person. I don't mean to discourage you at all, I just don't see how to wait and get the other spouse to do their part in mending the relationship. My H is very controlling and knows that by reacting, very loudly to anything he doesn't want to work on or talk about, I will back off because I don't want him yelling in my face. Now he has taken control and doesn't have to deal with it. I think it is nothing more than a game to him and he always wins the game (if I don't back off, I will likely get slapped in the face). So, I am no longer playing in the game. It is very hard for me to take the next step, especially with him being the model husband right now. It's just too little, too late.
I just want to live a peaceful life.
Good luck to you!

anna, maybe I need to clarify.... the shower, laundary, food stuff is inconsequential, I don't have to do those things, and I kinda understand the emtional issues for thinker.... one must remember I am a very pragmatic person, I can seperate emotion and rationality very easily. If my worst enemy needed a "shower" I would have no problem with letting em use mine..why? Cause it has nothing to do with anything, is just a shower. The point is, I am not mad about this at all.... I don't understand it (her emotions) but I think they are reasonable....on the other hand the business issues irritate me, because that has financial consequences that affect her as well as me, and the kids too...that crosses the line in my world, you set emotions aside when it comes to financial issues, if you can't (or won't) then one has a personal issue in my world, and there will be conflict....and you need to get yourself straightened out....but ya see, this is one of the fundamental differences between thinker and I, I stress her, and I don't want to be a source of her stress, she can't change that, and neither can I.... it is an integral part of our psychology.<p>By the way, I am not angry today at all, my main concern is the smooth running of the business, and the kids welfare. I am quite capable of taking care of myself, food, laudary, etc. I have no idea why thinker thinks this is a big deal, or you either anna. Also I am not anything like your H, I am not in the slightest abusive, rather the other way around, such as it is...but our genders kind of equal it out. Nor do I have any desire to just drop in, or hang out, eat dinner, nap or any of the amenities, don't know how you got that impression...I know thinker needs to disconnect in her own way, and I will do nothing to interfere with that.<p>As for the business, tools etc. I know you mean well, but it is not that simple, I will do so in a divorce circumstance, but not in a seperation situation....that is the whole point of a seperation, it is not a divorce, so you do not do all the things you would in a divorce. Ditto the business, if she wants to get a full time job, and keep her own money, then her remuneration from the business stops too, it is no longer her money too...that would necessitate a financial divorce, which is fine, but complicated if you are not actually divorced I would think. If she wants to work, and all her salary ends up just offsetting increased business costs, not sure that is a good thing. Plus it is a personal business, no one can do the job she does, and we would lose revenue as well as the increased costs of trying to hire someone.... all in all a bad deal, and I expect her to suck it up and perform, I am not real receptive to woe is me in this area.<p>anna...Everything you wrote on this post sounds like advice you should be giving yourself though. You are trying to control what Thinker wants to do... <p>snl...How so, I just expect her to pull her weight, and not LB about it.<p>anna...You want your cake and to eat it too. You don't want marriage but you want to have a nurturing relationship with her...that really sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too.<p>snl..Ok, explain that to me, why caring and valueing someone means cake eating? Why being considerate and nurturing is cake eating? I may not think the intimacy of marriage is healthy for us, but that means we should hate each other, and have nothing to do with each other? I don't get it. If that is how it is, then people should not be married, the marriage is a lie, it is a what's in it for me arrangement...if you care about someone, makes no difference what your marital status is...correct? I dunno, maybe you don't understand me, or maybe marriage really is an adversarial lifestyle, so ending it is likewise adversarital.....maybe that is why few here seem to understand what I mean when I say marriage should be a safe, nurturing, healthy, joyous place..... not a contract where you meet my needs, and I will meet yours, and if you don't I will hate your guts....<p>btw somewhere was said since I don't love thinker anymore.... I have never said that, I will always love thinker, but that has nothing to do with our ability to function in a healthy marital way. Nor does it mean I cannot analytically recognize and make decisions regarding our fit, and the stresses placed on both of us. Love has nothing to do with marriage, fit is what determines success..... and that is what is meant by loving, but not being in-love....we need much better labels, those are way too inflammatory. Thinkers well-being will always be important to me (regardless), and I will always be willing/available to support/interact with her...if that isn't love, what is it?<p>As for gaining independence anna, you are right, but not in the way you might think. Thanks for your well wishes.

snl,<p>I'm getting ready for church, so I didn't plan on posting anything now, Chris is in the shower so I have about 4 1/2 seconds. The typical 8 year old shower.<p>The one thing I need to respond to is this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am important too, but I don't much feel like it <hr></blockquote><p>Well, you are important, and even though you don't feel like it, I am reminding you.<p>I will come back here this afternoon and remind you again.<p>Gotta run,
Elizabeth

snl,<p>you can do anything you want to, remember that, just take responsbility for your actions. . . .<p>thinker, just like CJ, Faithful Wife, and Sue's H, who would not work together in a business with a former spouse. . . . very unrealistic.. . . and that is her right, and her responsibility to herself. . . .<p>if her bailing out on her job angers you, you are not taking responsibility for your actions. . . your expectations are way out of whack, to the point of delusional. . . . <p>marriage is alot like pregnancy, either you are or you aren't, and if you were and you aren't any more, usually wanting to be around the other personal at all is fairly painful . . . .<p>Now look up the definition of friend and friendly. . . . one is a state of being, the noun, the other modifies or describes an interaction, however, THE TWO CAN BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. . . . . .
snl, take responsbility for what you are doing, and understand that you are on your own with regards to thinker, your lives are now separate, maybe never to interact again. . . . that is separation and plan b. . . . . and divorce. . . . . and thinker is not your permanent employee for life, and she should quit right, file against you and get child support and possibly alimony. . . . your position sounds to me like you married for an employee for life, and that you are a workaholic for life. possibly like your parents from the depression, but marriage and work are very, very difficult to make exist for a long period of time. . .<p>so now get off your long, drawn out windbag CEO wannabe attitude and start learning to live your own life. . . . for all your philosophical garbage you have thrown out here, your words and expectations tell me you are NOT a very practical person, but a very emotionally immature person. . . who doesn't understand reality very well at all. . . .<p>good luck.<p>wiftty

For a person who does "not indulge much in the emotional side of things" you SURE DO GET EMOTIONAL! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Listen, I too think it's "possible" to have the kind of relationship with your stbx that you describe. While my ex and I were going through the divorce, he kept a key. His tools were still in the garage, and he came by daily to pick them up. I made him a cup of coffee every morning, and he used the bathroom. Sometimes I did his laundry, sometimes he brought us donuts on a Saturday morning. I was nice, he was nice. No biggie. <p>Was it the best way to do things? I think, for the most part, it was. However, I was not/am not like thinker, and David was not/is not like you. <p>I'm not so sure you two can pull it off, to be honest. <p>If you can though, it does make for a more comfortable life - at least as you ease into the divorce.

IMO, you have to follow Steve's plan because you agreed to do so. Did all of these details come up in your counseling session on separating and Plan B? If not, they should have been addressed before your move. <p>You can settle these issues on Wednesday,but in the mean time you should go out and purchase everything you need now that can't be taken from the house. If you end up divorcing you will need these things anyway, and if you get back together you can sell them then. You can buy a lot of the items you listed second hand through the newspaper. <p>Move all your files and work equipment to the new place and call a temporary employment agency to find some one to replace Thinker. <p>Set up temporary child support and Alimony that takes into account payment of the temporary employee in the dollar figure. Maybe Steve can help you with that until some type of separation order is in place. <p>Set up a schedule that allows you to spend time with the kids on a consistent basis, and do it at your new home or at the places some one else suggested here. <p>IMO, you need to sit down and logically decide how to follow Plan B in as close to it's purest form as possible. What I wrote above are just some suggestions. On Wednesday you'll be able to get advice from Steve. I would have a tight plan in mind(that addresses the details)so he can mediate and give you and Thinker immediate feedback.<p>Both of you are in my prayers today. God Bless.

SNL,<p>Wiffty is right on the target with everything he said. You act like you married a lifetime employee...<p>Thinker is a person and you want to control her as your employee, your friend, whatever your emotional needs are with her...<p>Does she get to control what her emotional needs are with you? No....<p>Also, you don't have to understand where she is coming from or where I am coming from, I think you just need to know, she has the courts on her side on this one, so you need to compromise as best you can...<p>Like I said also, I didn't realize how much you depended on Thinker, you could use some independence in your life...<p>My spouse wanted to be separated but didn't want to give up anything he enjoyed either...<p>My spouse couldn't have his way, that's just life sometimes...<p>In divorce...<p>Did he get his way? No<p>Did I get my way? No <p>Did my children get their way? No<p>Is Thinker getting her way? No<p>Are you getting your way? No<p>Are your children getting their way? No<p>That's divorce...That's reality...Absolutely NO ONE gets their way!<p>Wiffty is right you're thread sounds a little dilusional...<p>ANNA<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

ah wifty, always so supportive...and you are actually, cause all I ask from anyone is honesty (and the more radical the better). Just to clarify, this not for LIFE, we will end the business when/if we divorce (well actually it is gonna end no matter what, I don't want to do it anymore, it is just how the bills get paid....ya know). The issue is right NOW, and how the bills get paid right NOW. Those things have absolutely nothing to do with emotions and marriage, they are survival issues...and I expect (rightfully so) thinker to fully pull her weight, no matter how crappy she feels....you just don't stop cause you are unhappy with your life.... if you stop it should be done in a controlled, carefully orchestrated manner, designed for smallest amount of financial pain....there is ABSOLUTELY no room for emotion in that process. Believe me, I do not want to be CEO, I hate the position, and it will be a very happy day (for both of us) when thinker no longer HAS to work for this ogre.<p>wifty...Now look up the definition of friend and friendly. . . . one is a state of being, the noun, the other modifies or describes an interaction, however, THE TWO CAN BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. . . . . .<p>snl...sure, but they don't have to be, right?<p>wifty...snl, take responsbility for what you are doing, and understand that you are on your own with regards to thinker, your lives are now separate, maybe never to interact again. . . . that is separation and plan b. . . . . and divorce. . . . .<p>snl..Yes, I know, it is hard though, for both of us. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing is my point.<p>wifty...and thinker is not your permanent employee for life, and she should quit right, file against you and get child support and possibly alimony. . . . your position sounds to me like you married for an employee for life, and that you are a workaholic for life. <p>snl..Hopefully have cleared that up. As for the legal advice, she has all the money, so not really much to file against I guess. And whatever financial arrangements come to pass, I have no intentions of contesting, so she should be fine I spect.<p>
as for the little bit pregnant thingy, sorry no dice. That is a specific physical condition, you either are or aren't. Human relationships are far more complex, and fraught with manipulation, expectation, self-inerest, psychological incompatibilities, chemisty, history, and many other things... ones marital status is only a boundary of sorts, it is not an all or nothing situation....if it is, one should not be married. I cannot fathom ever hating or being distressed over an ex-spouse, unless they were actively trying to hurt me or something...it makes no sense at all, an ex-spouse should be a shoe-in for an in-depth freindship relationship. But I accept the judgement of many of you, I am just nuts I guess, or woefully deficient emotionally, I just can't hate or dislike people because they don't do what I want em too.

delusional? Hmmmm..... you could be right anna. If ones expectations are to far from the observable norm, that would be delusional...well maybe wishful thinking, only delusional if you try to force it I guess....and I won't. Our relationship will be whatever thinker wants it to be, I just regret it is so acrimonious...and I can't see why it has to be so.<p>yep sheryl, you described it pretty good, why can't people just be good to each other, why all the acrimony, what purpose is served....I see that is what happens alot, I just don't understand it....<p>alady, no not much discussed, all we established with steve is that I would go (not thinker), and that I should not just wander in for showers, food etc... I enthusiastically agreed to all that, have absolutely no problem with it, and am confused why it seems to be an issue. The rest has not been discussed except for thinker to essentially say after today I can never set foot again here...that kinda irritated me. She has since clarified she wants more discussion with steve, will continue to help with the business, and realizes I have stuff here that is needed... It is MY feeling the seperation is in part being used as a pressure tactic, judgeing by the enormous amount of LB'ing type representations thinker makes concerning it.... I have not found her at all cooperative. Maybe after we talk to steve (she refuses to even discuss stuff with me, which is backwards, we are supposed to work out everything we can first, THEN seek help in resolving other issues), we can come up with a plan that meets both our needs.<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNl,<p>If both can agree like Sheryl and her husband did, then great, they can do it, but if you are forcing one to do it when it's not what they want then it can't be done...<p>There was a lot of hostility between me and my spouse, especially with him. I had no peace...<p>I think that thinker feels the same way, she needs time to adjust and to be by herself...this is her choice.<p>As for me and my spouse, his way wasn't working. Now that he's out of the house totally, I have the peace I need. <p>You may think that you are not harming Thinker, but emotionally you are. She needs time to herself.<p>Like I said, you don't have to understand it, you may feel punished by it, as did my stbx, but it's not about punishment, it's about taking care of our needs, Thinker is taking care of hers, not yours and I'm taking care of mine, not my stbx's anymore...<p>Take care and good luck.<p>BTW, how are you moving, when you are typing all morning...? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>I'm glad you are sticking with your agreement.<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

SNL,<p>You are saying you are not angry and you are giving Thinker what she wants...<p>Thinker is saying you are downstairs slamming things and you are not moving out....<p>Why is there two totally conflicting stories here?<p>In your threads, you keep saying you are not angry, but I do have to say they reflect anger and resentment. Am I wrong?<p>ANNA<p>P.S.<p>Are you being honest with your own feelings SNL?<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.<p>1. not angry about seperateing, but pretty frustrated at thinker's unwillingness to negotiate work related stuff.<p>2. Not slamming anything around, mostly typing.<p>3. will move stuff this aft. am doing some other things this morn (like trying to work out the needs of my 23 yo daughter for a horseshow she has to leave on tomorrow)... and yeah, felt a need to discuss some of this on board, I am very frustrated with thinker, but that is nothing new.<p>4. If I am still here at midnight, then everyione can give me whatfor, but I won't be.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.<p>1. not angry about seperateing, but pretty frustrated at thinker's unwillingness to negotiate work related stuff.<p>2. Not slamming anything around, mostly typing.<p>3. will move stuff this aft. am doing some other things this morn (like trying to work out the needs of my 23 yo daughter for a horseshow she has to leave on tomorrow)... and yeah, felt a need to discuss some of this on board, I am very frustrated with thinker, but that is nothing new.<p>4. If I am still here at midnight, then everyione can give me whatfor, but I won't be.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>So Why can't you wait until Wednesday, take a time out, and have a mediator, Steve, help you guys...<p>You are pushing her SNL...She should be mad because you won't let it go...You are not respecting her needs, you want to argue and your mad that she won't cooperate...<p>ANNA

Okay, I'm gonna disagree with what I just said... to an extent at least...She shouldn't be mad for you not letting it go, but she should ignore you...She told you to wait until Wednesday, take a time out, and you won't do it...That's your choice, but she doesn't have to be miserable because your reaction is not what she wanted, she just needs to ignore...<p>ANNA

SNL: alady, no not much discussed, all we established with steve is that I would go (not thinker), and that I should not just wander in for showers, food etc... I enthusiastically agreed to all that, have absolutely no problem with it, and am confused why it seems to be an issue. <p>ALady: The good news here is that you now know it's and issue and can work around it. I know you have financial issues to resolve, but IMO taking a hit financially to buy these things, and remove one issue is worthwhile. This is probably the easiest one to resolve. Hire some one to put in a shower quickly, and make the place comfortable for you. We all need a safe haven that is ours and can be called home. Thinker needs her place and you need yours. Your new place should be a place where you can recover emotionally. As the Captain on the Enterprise would say "Make it so". <p>SNL: The rest has not been discussed except for thinker to essentially say after today I can never set foot again here...that kinda irritated me. She has since clarified she wants more discussion with steve, will continue to help with the business, and realizes I have stuff here that is needed... It is MY feeling the seperation is in part being used as a pressure tactic, judgeing by the enormous amount of LB'ing type representations thinker makes concerning it.... I have not found her at all cooperative. <p>ALady: So now you know that Thinker may not cooperate. What do you think you should do if it continues that way? What if Steve agrees with Thinker? You need to have a logical plan that takes this into account. To me, that means getting your boys to help you move everything you need to your new temporary home and safe haven, so there is almost no need to go to your previous home. <p>SNL: Maybe after we talk to steve (she refuses to even discuss stuff with me, which is backwards, we are supposed to work out everything we can first, THEN seek help in resolving other issues), we can come up with a plan that meets both our needs.<p>ALady: SNL, you two have not been able to discuss things rationally, so what makes you think that you'll be able to do it now. You should take notes on what you want, and Thinker should do the same. Then discuss the details with Steve and let him mediate. <p>I know it seems logical that you two work it out together first, but some times what SHOULD happen doesn't work, and you have to find a work around. <p>You need to have an alternate plan that takes into account the business, the kids, material stuff etc.. which assumes that your separation is going to be a full plan b with no modifications. Preparation and planning ahead will make it easier on you. Try to use logic to plan ahead for this scenario, so you're not surprised if this is what Steve recommends. <p>Remember if it comes to divorce these issues will have to be resolved anyway. This is probably a good exercise for you if that happens.