Guess I will start my own seperation thread - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

I am a very practical person, and do not indulge much in the emotional side of things (as many of you know). So maybe my notions of seperation are a bit different...does that make me wrong? Must I live my life dictated to by the emotional needs of others? If so, maybe that pushes me away...ya know? I am important too, but I don't much feel like it, I feel like there is never ending pressure to turn me into something other than what I am....another fit issue I suppose.I agree with the basic concepts of seperation, that people get "emotional" space from each other, I need that too (yeah I do have some emotions). That means stopping most regular interactions. Not seeing/doing for each other things that one can do for themself. And that is ok. I would not need to be physically seperate to disconnect that way, but I can see where most would...so although I "suggested" I could use the shower (my hovel has no working shower), get food from the fridge (no working kitchen either), use the laundary (no..well you get it) etc....would even be willing to do so when thinker not home, and so forth...it was a SUGGESTION a negotiation. I did not demand it, or get angry. It seems clear she would prefer to have as little contact or PRESENCE (something I find irrational, what difference does it make if she is not home... but I can sorta dimly see emotionally, so fine), if that is what she needs, helps her recover, then I am enthusiastic about it, and will cooperate (even though I don't fully understand it).The other issue is business, we LIVE totally off self-employment, and she is an integral part of this...it is not for MY benefit, it is for everyones (me, children, and HER) benefit too. Her various threats to do less than her full share darn well make me angry....and she knows this, and uses such threats to push my buttons. She has never once told me I can fully count on her to do all her work with the business, cooperate with me fully, etc. etc. I suspect this is solely to keep me off balance, and distress me, it is an excellent weapon, she knows I cannot do this without her, and that I have a very strong sense of responsibility, and that my anxiety level skyrockets when she expresses I shouldn't count on her. And yes that is when I will say angry things, or call names...I am not proud of that, but she has given me a terrific opportunity to learn to deal with such stuff. She doesn't seem to understand I have never trusted her emotionally (with good reason, but that is not my point here), and that telling me I cannot trust her full cooperation with the business is like pouring gasoline on an allready raging emotional fire. I need her to do whatever I ask re the business, and work in it just as hard as I do, this is not suppose to be a vacation for her, while we load up snl with even more stress (as well as lost revenue, cause I cannot do both our jobs), this has nothing to do with the marriage, this is where she works, and if she cannot pull her weight, then why even be married at all? I expect her to put in the same 40-60 hrs a week I do...and I will not budge from that 1 iota. Related to this is the fact that a bunch of stuff associated with the business is stored at home (I am a repair person, and have 100's of parts, material, and myriad of tools)..some in the house, some on the property..... I need unfettererd access to these things, and can need something on a moments notice. If we were divorcing this would not be an issue...we would both have completely functional homes, and I woul relocate all the stuff. This is not possible now, to save money I am living in cramped, primitive circumstances, as well as trying to remodel the place I am staying (something that also makes us some money when done). I need her to understand that, and control her emotions enough to deal with my coming and going some for those reasons. I won't bother, or even talk to her, would call her and let her know I am coming (so am not unannounced), do what I have to do, and quickly leave. I do not find this unreasonable, it is simply economic reality, and responsibility. I also have various records and such that I do need from time to time, and are all in file cabinets in the house, she needs them too, so even if I could take em (which I cannot) that wouldn't work either. IMO a appropriate solution is to try and plan anything I need ahead of time (unless is emergency need) and coordinate with thinker to come over when she is gone, do what I have to do, and leave before she gets back. This may be a home, but it is also a WORKPLACE, and that has different requirements. Let me add something here....making my life more difficult, and stressful WILL NOT make me want to be married more...and if that is the strategy, then well....you that know me can predict it's efficacy.There is also the issue of interactions with kids, I do a lot of mentoring to my young adults. And they can find their way over (I will only be 2 miles away), in their own vehicles...and the phone of course. But I have noticed in many cases here, plan b does not mean one has to see kids away from house, can interract with them at home, the other spouse leaves for that time, or whatever. I would like this option at least on the table. I will have lots of stuff still needs doing at home, organizing, downsizing my stuff etc. (which is another access problem), and could do so in the evening (when thinker was gone) and also interract with kids then, but she won't even discuss it....and I supposedly am the control freak here...yeah, sure I am.Anyways, I am not angry, I think the seperation is very much needed, I am understand thinker needs to disconnect from me, and that my presence interferes with that...but this is not a perfect world, we are not divorcing yet, so are not in full move everything mode, and we have a business to run....my frustration is she will talk about none of this, says I can have no access to anything at all, and that I must do whatever some 3rd party tells me to (steve in this case)...well ya know what, I am not an inmate in a prison, thinker is not my lord and master, and this is my life too, not just hers....and I am going to run MY life as I see fit, if she does not want to reasonably cooperate, so be it....so far this impending seperation "feels" like nothing more than another tool to coerce me with, not a cooperative effort to disconnect our lives, and reduce the stress we place on each other, see where we (each of us) wants to go, and amicably divorce if it comes to that...instead just another thing to fight over....*sigh*.

Guess I will reply to my own thread. One thing I have wondered about it the last year here is how acrimonious marriage is when it gets to sepetation/divorce.....why is that? I have come to beleive it is in part a temperament difference, another one of those uncrossable gulfs, and fit issues. It makes absolutely no sense to me that two people cannot rationally deal with these issues. What purpose is served by being uncooperative, angry, vengeful, depressed etc.... is it really that hard to control ones emotions, and behave in a responsible manner? That is really all that LB'ing is about, behaveing responsibly, and not projecting on to someone else your emotional issues (or manipulatring/controlling them). If you have a life, and history, and kids and care about each other...why is that thrown away in acrimony? Now if your spouse is messing with you, and doing hurtful things, sure, that is a problem. But why can't two people simply be nice to each other and act responsible? I do not mistreat thinker, I have no intentions of ever mistreating her, rejecting her, or distressing her unncessarily...the issue is only are we healthy for each other in a marital relationship (and unlike many of you supposedly, we have had turmoil our entire marriage)...if not, we just end that part of our relationship, and can still have a very close, nurturing relationship, you'd think I was murdering someone, and I deeply resent that, I am important too. IMO if people cannot amicably divorce, there is no reason to be married, it obviously is based on being property in some sense. If a spouse says they just cannot do this (remain in a marital relationship with you), it is not healthy for them, you just let em go....don't you, and adjust your relationship accordinly? But no, the other spouse does everything in their power to manipulated, corece, guilt them into staying, and the relationship gets destroyed in the actimony...why do people do that? If you don't want to be friends with your spouse, why in the world do you want to be married to them? Over the years the many times thinker said she was going to leave me, divorce me, as soon as she had the money, or whatever...I was distressed, but I wasn't angry...if she wanted to go, so be it, I wouldn't stop her, or hate her, and would want to be as connected as possible, didn't have to be married to her. Mostly I was just upset for the kids, didn't seem fair to them (when they were young), and I knew we would probably suffer financially....but I had no real problem with her leaveing emotionally. I dunno, maybe there is something wrong with me, but the notion of making someone "love" me, or binding someone to me just doesn't compute, never did....and to get mad about it boggles my mind, I will never understand that..... how can love ever be about anger?actually what makes me frustrated/angry/LB is unfairness, unreasonableness, irrationality, and complaints that I don't act like a H (meaning do all the emotional stuff whether I "want" to or not)....like this is some kind of game or something....that totally violates my biggest need, radical honesty/honesty and openess. This entire MB effort has been about getting me to act in certain ways, zero effort (except for my efforts here on the board) has been made to understand me, or deal with my issues, it has all been about thinker, and her stuff, and her needs..why is that?[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

SNL,I know this is such a great adjustment for you but you are right, your way of separating is just not reasonable or typical.What good is it if you are there doing your laundry, taking your showers, coming over to eat, coming over to interact with the children, coming over to get tools...?????Here's my suggestion, do your laundry at the laundry mat(sp?), look for a used working fridge, and temporarily eat out and/or get coolers for food such as sandwiches until you can afford to get a fridge, you and your children will just have to go out for dinner, go to the park or hang out at your new residence, on the tools...either move them to the new residence, or to a storage shed (which doesn't cost that much) or if you have a garage, perhaps agree to only use the garage.
Regarding your company, I think it may be time for you and Thinker to get separate jobs. I know thinker says she can't go back in to nursing but she takes care of your business, then she can get a job working in an office taking care of someone else's business. If you want to keep your company, you may think it can't run without her but there are people out there that you can hire to do what Thinker is doing. On the shower, is there a bathtub, if so use that, if not...Can you get one?Unfortunately, separating temporarily or permanent you guys will have separate homes. Reading your thread, SNL, I think you are being unreasonable in wanting to have all the amenities but not wanting your wife as a husband should.
You don't love Thinker anymore, you and she are making each other miserable, you don't want her as your wife anymore, at least not in the sense a husband should be to his wife, so here's the prize you get....it's called life living away from the family and wife....Also, I think that it will be very good for you to gain some independence, you sound very dependent on Thinker in so many ways. Take care and I wish you luck in your new life,ANNA

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:

actually what makes me frustrated/angry/LB is unfairness, unreasonableness, irrationality, and complaints that I don't act like a H (meaning do all the emotional stuff whether I "want" to or not)....like this is some kind of game or something....that totally violates my biggest need, radical honesty/honesty and openess. This entire MB effort has been about getting me to act in certain ways, zero effort (except for my efforts here on the board) has been made to understand me, or deal with my issues, it has all been about thinker, and her stuff, and her needs..why is that?[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<hr></blockquote>SNL,Everything you wrote on this post sounds like advice you should be giving yourself though. You are trying to control what Thinker wants to do...You want your cake and to eat it too. You don't want marriage but you want to have a nurturing relationship with her...that really sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too. I think it's time to take your own advice guy.ANNA[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

SNL,I may be posting these faster than you can respond but I had some more to add...Your reaction to wanting a separation this way was the same reaction my stbx had also...The people he consulted with, including his friend, tried to tell him it doesn't work that way, but he wouldn't listen...He wanted to come over sit in front of the TV, take a nap, eat dinner sometimes, play with the children on video games...The tension got very high...I didn't want this...he had his own place now...He bullied his way into the house and I felt no control over my life. I didn't want him hanging around my residence anymore, we were separated...He pushed me into taking matters to court...I got a lawyer, and she said, "That he's being unreasonable." The courts think so also, I got temporary orders keeping him out of the house totally...Don't push Thinker into getting temporary orders to keep you out...Quit trying to control her...You are going to cause a battle that you will lose.If you talk to a lawyer you will find out it will probably be very easy for her to get an order making you stay out...Don't let that happen, just do it on your own for now...Take care,ANNA

I feel for you, as I am in the midst of my own misery. I don't understand your whole situation, but I have a question about working things out. I was wondering if the relationship is to the point of needing this much work, then something is obviousy so wrong and needing help, then how do we get our spouse to work on this effectively? If they were capable of doing this in the first place, we wouldn't be in the situation to begin with, right. I think my H needs so much help, and frankly I'm tired of hanging around and waiting for him to acknowledge he even has a problem much less get some help, that I'm now working on getting out altogther. Twenty one years is a lot of my life to just discard, however, I don't want to go thru another 20 like this. But now that I'm finished emotionally, lo and behold he is getting his act together, what everybody hopes for. The problem now is I no longer care. He has hurt me so bad for so long, that I have removed myself from trying. We have been at this point before and it only lasts long enough for me to let my guard down and begin to trust him again, then boom...it's gone and he's back to this other person. I don't mean to discourage you at all, I just don't see how to wait and get the other spouse to do their part in mending the relationship. My H is very controlling and knows that by reacting, very loudly to anything he doesn't want to work on or talk about, I will back off because I don't want him yelling in my face. Now he has taken control and doesn't have to deal with it. I think it is nothing more than a game to him and he always wins the game (if I don't back off, I will likely get slapped in the face). So, I am no longer playing in the game. It is very hard for me to take the next step, especially with him being the model husband right now. It's just too little, too late.
I just want to live a peaceful life.
Good luck to you!

anna, maybe I need to clarify.... the shower, laundary, food stuff is inconsequential, I don't have to do those things, and I kinda understand the emtional issues for thinker.... one must remember I am a very pragmatic person, I can seperate emotion and rationality very easily. If my worst enemy needed a "shower" I would have no problem with letting em use mine..why? Cause it has nothing to do with anything, is just a shower. The point is, I am not mad about this at all.... I don't understand it (her emotions) but I think they are reasonable....on the other hand the business issues irritate me, because that has financial consequences that affect her as well as me, and the kids too...that crosses the line in my world, you set emotions aside when it comes to financial issues, if you can't (or won't) then one has a personal issue in my world, and there will be conflict....and you need to get yourself straightened out....but ya see, this is one of the fundamental differences between thinker and I, I stress her, and I don't want to be a source of her stress, she can't change that, and neither can I.... it is an integral part of our psychology.By the way, I am not angry today at all, my main concern is the smooth running of the business, and the kids welfare. I am quite capable of taking care of myself, food, laudary, etc. I have no idea why thinker thinks this is a big deal, or you either anna. Also I am not anything like your H, I am not in the slightest abusive, rather the other way around, such as it is...but our genders kind of equal it out. Nor do I have any desire to just drop in, or hang out, eat dinner, nap or any of the amenities, don't know how you got that impression...I know thinker needs to disconnect in her own way, and I will do nothing to interfere with that.As for the business, tools etc. I know you mean well, but it is not that simple, I will do so in a divorce circumstance, but not in a seperation situation....that is the whole point of a seperation, it is not a divorce, so you do not do all the things you would in a divorce. Ditto the business, if she wants to get a full time job, and keep her own money, then her remuneration from the business stops too, it is no longer her money too...that would necessitate a financial divorce, which is fine, but complicated if you are not actually divorced I would think. If she wants to work, and all her salary ends up just offsetting increased business costs, not sure that is a good thing. Plus it is a personal business, no one can do the job she does, and we would lose revenue as well as the increased costs of trying to hire someone.... all in all a bad deal, and I expect her to suck it up and perform, I am not real receptive to woe is me in this area.anna...Everything you wrote on this post sounds like advice you should be giving yourself though. You are trying to control what Thinker wants to do... snl...How so, I just expect her to pull her weight, and not LB about it.anna...You want your cake and to eat it too. You don't want marriage but you want to have a nurturing relationship with her...that really sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too.snl..Ok, explain that to me, why caring and valueing someone means cake eating? Why being considerate and nurturing is cake eating? I may not think the intimacy of marriage is healthy for us, but that means we should hate each other, and have nothing to do with each other? I don't get it. If that is how it is, then people should not be married, the marriage is a lie, it is a what's in it for me arrangement...if you care about someone, makes no difference what your marital status is...correct? I dunno, maybe you don't understand me, or maybe marriage really is an adversarial lifestyle, so ending it is likewise adversarital.....maybe that is why few here seem to understand what I mean when I say marriage should be a safe, nurturing, healthy, joyous place..... not a contract where you meet my needs, and I will meet yours, and if you don't I will hate your guts....btw somewhere was said since I don't love thinker anymore.... I have never said that, I will always love thinker, but that has nothing to do with our ability to function in a healthy marital way. Nor does it mean I cannot analytically recognize and make decisions regarding our fit, and the stresses placed on both of us. Love has nothing to do with marriage, fit is what determines success..... and that is what is meant by loving, but not being in-love....we need much better labels, those are way too inflammatory. Thinkers well-being will always be important to me (regardless), and I will always be willing/available to support/interact with her...if that isn't love, what is it?As for gaining independence anna, you are right, but not in the way you might think. Thanks for your well wishes.

snl,I'm getting ready for church, so I didn't plan on posting anything now, Chris is in the shower so I have about 4 1/2 seconds. The typical 8 year old shower.The one thing I need to respond to is this. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I am important too, but I don't much feel like it <hr></blockquote>Well, you are important, and even though you don't feel like it, I am reminding you.I will come back here this afternoon and remind you again.Gotta run,
Elizabeth

snl,you can do anything you want to, remember that, just take responsbility for your actions. . . .thinker, just like CJ, Faithful Wife, and Sue's H, who would not work together in a business with a former spouse. . . . very unrealistic.. . . and that is her right, and her responsibility to herself. . . .if her bailing out on her job angers you, you are not taking responsibility for your actions. . . your expectations are way out of whack, to the point of delusional. . . . marriage is alot like pregnancy, either you are or you aren't, and if you were and you aren't any more, usually wanting to be around the other personal at all is fairly painful . . . .Now look up the definition of friend and friendly. . . . one is a state of being, the noun, the other modifies or describes an interaction, however, THE TWO CAN BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. . . . . .
snl, take responsbility for what you are doing, and understand that you are on your own with regards to thinker, your lives are now separate, maybe never to interact again. . . . that is separation and plan b. . . . . and divorce. . . . . and thinker is not your permanent employee for life, and she should quit right, file against you and get child support and possibly alimony. . . . your position sounds to me like you married for an employee for life, and that you are a workaholic for life. possibly like your parents from the depression, but marriage and work are very, very difficult to make exist for a long period of time. . .so now get off your long, drawn out windbag CEO wannabe attitude and start learning to live your own life. . . . for all your philosophical garbage you have thrown out here, your words and expectations tell me you are NOT a very practical person, but a very emotionally immature person. . . who doesn't understand reality very well at all. . . .good luck.wiftty

For a person who does "not indulge much in the emotional side of things" you SURE DO GET EMOTIONAL! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Listen, I too think it's "possible" to have the kind of relationship with your stbx that you describe. While my ex and I were going through the divorce, he kept a key. His tools were still in the garage, and he came by daily to pick them up. I made him a cup of coffee every morning, and he used the bathroom. Sometimes I did his laundry, sometimes he brought us donuts on a Saturday morning. I was nice, he was nice. No biggie. Was it the best way to do things? I think, for the most part, it was. However, I was not/am not like thinker, and David was not/is not like you. I'm not so sure you two can pull it off, to be honest. If you can though, it does make for a more comfortable life - at least as you ease into the divorce.

IMO, you have to follow Steve's plan because you agreed to do so. Did all of these details come up in your counseling session on separating and Plan B? If not, they should have been addressed before your move. You can settle these issues on Wednesday,but in the mean time you should go out and purchase everything you need now that can't be taken from the house. If you end up divorcing you will need these things anyway, and if you get back together you can sell them then. You can buy a lot of the items you listed second hand through the newspaper. Move all your files and work equipment to the new place and call a temporary employment agency to find some one to replace Thinker. Set up temporary child support and Alimony that takes into account payment of the temporary employee in the dollar figure. Maybe Steve can help you with that until some type of separation order is in place. Set up a schedule that allows you to spend time with the kids on a consistent basis, and do it at your new home or at the places some one else suggested here. IMO, you need to sit down and logically decide how to follow Plan B in as close to it's purest form as possible. What I wrote above are just some suggestions. On Wednesday you'll be able to get advice from Steve. I would have a tight plan in mind(that addresses the details)so he can mediate and give you and Thinker immediate feedback.Both of you are in my prayers today. God Bless.

SNL,Wiffty is right on the target with everything he said. You act like you married a lifetime employee...Thinker is a person and you want to control her as your employee, your friend, whatever your emotional needs are with her...Does she get to control what her emotional needs are with you? No....Also, you don't have to understand where she is coming from or where I am coming from, I think you just need to know, she has the courts on her side on this one, so you need to compromise as best you can...Like I said also, I didn't realize how much you depended on Thinker, you could use some independence in your life...My spouse wanted to be separated but didn't want to give up anything he enjoyed either...My spouse couldn't have his way, that's just life sometimes...In divorce...Did he get his way? NoDid I get my way? No Did my children get their way? NoIs Thinker getting her way? NoAre you getting your way? NoAre your children getting their way? NoThat's divorce...That's reality...Absolutely NO ONE gets their way!Wiffty is right you're thread sounds a little dilusional...ANNA[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

ah wifty, always so supportive...and you are actually, cause all I ask from anyone is honesty (and the more radical the better). Just to clarify, this not for LIFE, we will end the business when/if we divorce (well actually it is gonna end no matter what, I don't want to do it anymore, it is just how the bills get paid....ya know). The issue is right NOW, and how the bills get paid right NOW. Those things have absolutely nothing to do with emotions and marriage, they are survival issues...and I expect (rightfully so) thinker to fully pull her weight, no matter how crappy she feels....you just don't stop cause you are unhappy with your life.... if you stop it should be done in a controlled, carefully orchestrated manner, designed for smallest amount of financial pain....there is ABSOLUTELY no room for emotion in that process. Believe me, I do not want to be CEO, I hate the position, and it will be a very happy day (for both of us) when thinker no longer HAS to work for this ogre.wifty...Now look up the definition of friend and friendly. . . . one is a state of being, the noun, the other modifies or describes an interaction, however, THE TWO CAN BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. . . . . .snl...sure, but they don't have to be, right?wifty...snl, take responsbility for what you are doing, and understand that you are on your own with regards to thinker, your lives are now separate, maybe never to interact again. . . . that is separation and plan b. . . . . and divorce. . . . .snl..Yes, I know, it is hard though, for both of us. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing is my point.wifty...and thinker is not your permanent employee for life, and she should quit right, file against you and get child support and possibly alimony. . . . your position sounds to me like you married for an employee for life, and that you are a workaholic for life. snl..Hopefully have cleared that up. As for the legal advice, she has all the money, so not really much to file against I guess. And whatever financial arrangements come to pass, I have no intentions of contesting, so she should be fine I spect.
as for the little bit pregnant thingy, sorry no dice. That is a specific physical condition, you either are or aren't. Human relationships are far more complex, and fraught with manipulation, expectation, self-inerest, psychological incompatibilities, chemisty, history, and many other things... ones marital status is only a boundary of sorts, it is not an all or nothing situation....if it is, one should not be married. I cannot fathom ever hating or being distressed over an ex-spouse, unless they were actively trying to hurt me or something...it makes no sense at all, an ex-spouse should be a shoe-in for an in-depth freindship relationship. But I accept the judgement of many of you, I am just nuts I guess, or woefully deficient emotionally, I just can't hate or dislike people because they don't do what I want em too.

delusional? Hmmmm..... you could be right anna. If ones expectations are to far from the observable norm, that would be delusional...well maybe wishful thinking, only delusional if you try to force it I guess....and I won't. Our relationship will be whatever thinker wants it to be, I just regret it is so acrimonious...and I can't see why it has to be so.yep sheryl, you described it pretty good, why can't people just be good to each other, why all the acrimony, what purpose is served....I see that is what happens alot, I just don't understand it....alady, no not much discussed, all we established with steve is that I would go (not thinker), and that I should not just wander in for showers, food etc... I enthusiastically agreed to all that, have absolutely no problem with it, and am confused why it seems to be an issue. The rest has not been discussed except for thinker to essentially say after today I can never set foot again here...that kinda irritated me. She has since clarified she wants more discussion with steve, will continue to help with the business, and realizes I have stuff here that is needed... It is MY feeling the seperation is in part being used as a pressure tactic, judgeing by the enormous amount of LB'ing type representations thinker makes concerning it.... I have not found her at all cooperative. Maybe after we talk to steve (she refuses to even discuss stuff with me, which is backwards, we are supposed to work out everything we can first, THEN seek help in resolving other issues), we can come up with a plan that meets both our needs.[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

SNl,If both can agree like Sheryl and her husband did, then great, they can do it, but if you are forcing one to do it when it's not what they want then it can't be done...There was a lot of hostility between me and my spouse, especially with him. I had no peace...I think that thinker feels the same way, she needs time to adjust and to be by herself...this is her choice.As for me and my spouse, his way wasn't working. Now that he's out of the house totally, I have the peace I need. You may think that you are not harming Thinker, but emotionally you are. She needs time to herself.Like I said, you don't have to understand it, you may feel punished by it, as did my stbx, but it's not about punishment, it's about taking care of our needs, Thinker is taking care of hers, not yours and I'm taking care of mine, not my stbx's anymore...Take care and good luck.BTW, how are you moving, when you are typing all morning...? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ANNAP.S.I'm glad you are sticking with your agreement.[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

SNL,You are saying you are not angry and you are giving Thinker what she wants...Thinker is saying you are downstairs slamming things and you are not moving out....Why is there two totally conflicting stories here?In your threads, you keep saying you are not angry, but I do have to say they reflect anger and resentment. Am I wrong?ANNAP.S.Are you being honest with your own feelings SNL?[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.1. not angry about seperateing, but pretty frustrated at thinker's unwillingness to negotiate work related stuff.2. Not slamming anything around, mostly typing.3. will move stuff this aft. am doing some other things this morn (like trying to work out the needs of my 23 yo daughter for a horseshow she has to leave on tomorrow)... and yeah, felt a need to discuss some of this on board, I am very frustrated with thinker, but that is nothing new.4. If I am still here at midnight, then everyione can give me whatfor, but I won't be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.1. not angry about seperateing, but pretty frustrated at thinker's unwillingness to negotiate work related stuff.2. Not slamming anything around, mostly typing.3. will move stuff this aft. am doing some other things this morn (like trying to work out the needs of my 23 yo daughter for a horseshow she has to leave on tomorrow)... and yeah, felt a need to discuss some of this on board, I am very frustrated with thinker, but that is nothing new.4. If I am still here at midnight, then everyione can give me whatfor, but I won't be.<hr></blockquote>So Why can't you wait until Wednesday, take a time out, and have a mediator, Steve, help you guys...You are pushing her SNL...She should be mad because you won't let it go...You are not respecting her needs, you want to argue and your mad that she won't cooperate...ANNA

Okay, I'm gonna disagree with what I just said... to an extent at least...She shouldn't be mad for you not letting it go, but she should ignore you...She told you to wait until Wednesday, take a time out, and you won't do it...That's your choice, but she doesn't have to be miserable because your reaction is not what she wanted, she just needs to ignore...ANNA

SNL: alady, no not much discussed, all we established with steve is that I would go (not thinker), and that I should not just wander in for showers, food etc... I enthusiastically agreed to all that, have absolutely no problem with it, and am confused why it seems to be an issue. ALady: The good news here is that you now know it's and issue and can work around it. I know you have financial issues to resolve, but IMO taking a hit financially to buy these things, and remove one issue is worthwhile. This is probably the easiest one to resolve. Hire some one to put in a shower quickly, and make the place comfortable for you. We all need a safe haven that is ours and can be called home. Thinker needs her place and you need yours. Your new place should be a place where you can recover emotionally. As the Captain on the Enterprise would say "Make it so". SNL: The rest has not been discussed except for thinker to essentially say after today I can never set foot again here...that kinda irritated me. She has since clarified she wants more discussion with steve, will continue to help with the business, and realizes I have stuff here that is needed... It is MY feeling the seperation is in part being used as a pressure tactic, judgeing by the enormous amount of LB'ing type representations thinker makes concerning it.... I have not found her at all cooperative. ALady: So now you know that Thinker may not cooperate. What do you think you should do if it continues that way? What if Steve agrees with Thinker? You need to have a logical plan that takes this into account. To me, that means getting your boys to help you move everything you need to your new temporary home and safe haven, so there is almost no need to go to your previous home. SNL: Maybe after we talk to steve (she refuses to even discuss stuff with me, which is backwards, we are supposed to work out everything we can first, THEN seek help in resolving other issues), we can come up with a plan that meets both our needs.ALady: SNL, you two have not been able to discuss things rationally, so what makes you think that you'll be able to do it now. You should take notes on what you want, and Thinker should do the same. Then discuss the details with Steve and let him mediate. I know it seems logical that you two work it out together first, but some times what SHOULD happen doesn't work, and you have to find a work around. You need to have an alternate plan that takes into account the business, the kids, material stuff etc.. which assumes that your separation is going to be a full plan b with no modifications. Preparation and planning ahead will make it easier on you. Try to use logic to plan ahead for this scenario, so you're not surprised if this is what Steve recommends. Remember if it comes to divorce these issues will have to be resolved anyway. This is probably a good exercise for you if that happens.

snl - I stated that I would not reply to thinker anymore, but I choose to continue to exercise my right to respond to you, unless you object....You do take quite a beating on these forums from time to time, maybe deservedly in some cases. But as I told your wife, many of the questions you seek answers to are questions I have asked myself before. I came to different conclusions than you but that doesn't make me right and you wrong.Anyway, I don't think you are going to get what you want here. Thinker isn't going to be reasonable, in small part because it is emotional trauma. The larger part, I believe, I stated on her thread. It really does appear that her biggest motivator is control.She has used the threat of divorce to try to control you(I think that is one reason she refused to respond to many of my questions) and that failed. She has been using this upcoming separation as a means of control. Since you didn't cave in to her, she extends several new rules to push more buttons. When that doesn't work, it will be something else.It will always be something with her. Now, I don't find you completely blameless here. You have to do something to break this cycle of control rather than stringing it along.Just move out, try to do everything you can on your own without giving her any excuse at all to complain about you not "following the rules". As was suggested above, if it's possible find someone else to take over thinker's job. She will have to make a decision, 1) become a "silent" partner; or, 2) exit the business entirely and just accept some sort of financial settlement. You will probably have to make that decision for her as "indecision" will probably be used to try once again to control you.You do seem to "want your cake and eat it too" as Anna suggested, but so does thinker. Unless you both enjoy living like this, someone has to be strong enough to break the cycle.Obviously, it would be great if everyone who has to separate or divorce could do so amicably. Unfortunately, that is not often the case. You do apply logic to a lot of life's questions. Logic would dictate that you get as far away from thinker as possible right now. There is some possibility that the two of you could end up back together or part amicably, but it's not going to happen right now.Anna said, ".Quit trying to control her..". She is not being totally fair here. There are control attempts being attempted by both parties here. At least of the two of you, you seem best able to look at the objective side of an argument. You've got to see these control issues if you really look. And if you can see them then you could at least stop your part in it.Anna said, "you sound very dependent on Thinker in so many ways..". She may be right, but this is also a two-way street.You guys need to be apart right now. Find a way to make it so....

yes you are right anna, it is the weak spot for us rationalists, we just cannot fathom how emotions interfere with getting issues resolved, so we push too much....I really don't know what is going on in thinker, she is clearly distressed, all I can do is just let it go I guess. Trouble is, that triggers me, our whole marriage has been like that, she gets emotional, and I still have to solve all the problems, knowing I will be critized if she does not like how I resolve stuff....I just cannot deal with people who emotionally retreat....leaves me terribly frustrated.... I am fine dealing with my stuff, but what do you do when someone else is affected? If I had my way, I would just say the heck with all this, and disappear, I am quite capable of taking care of myself...let her fend for herself and kids, but alss, that would be irresponsible of me...so I don't, but then I have to deal with (and stuff) the frustration when I am not allowed to do the job right. This is another fit issue anna, but anyways, like you said, and I agree, nothing is served by stressing thinker more, the sooner we get this over the better, and hopefully she can heal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.<hr></blockquote>Honest to God, no confusion here. I have tried to be helpful to thinker, but she did not want to hear me. Much like DeWayne, I chose to stay away from her for MY SPIRIT.As an aside, I certainly was not helping her either - BUT I COULD HAVE.I am really LOATHE to choose sides here, but I sure can't imagine going back and forth between the two of you anymore -- and Anna is turning into somewhat of a mediator herself - dangerous position to be in, I would think (emotionally, Anna. I commend you for your effort though). If I have to try to speak to one of you, you're the one who at least makes an attempt at listening to me, and respecting what I have to say.There is no confusion, SNL, because you are clear as a bell, for those of us who find the truths in the midst of your diatribes - and MANY of us do. With my ex, David, there was, and still is, a kind of love. I couldn't label it for a million bucks, but it's there. We never fight anymore, although our marriage was FILLED with it. It was as if once we 'let go' we were safe to just be ourselves. And ourselves, well, they were pretty nice people underneath it all. We speak kindly always now, although we do have some disagreements. But the underlying respect is there. He was a butthole for a long time, and I was a fat nagging wife. That was SO BIG at that time, but didn't matter anymore once we really did get the divorce going. The difference for you two, I think, is that the underlying love is NOT there. You keep saying there is love, thinker keeps saying there is love, but if it's there, I don't see it. I see two people who are pissed as hell at eachother and trying to exert control over the other one. No, I don't see hate, but I don't see love either. So, in conclusion (as if this is an essay, which it's turning into)... I am not confused.

SNL,I can see why thinker is upset. I even see why you are upset...Neither of you are getting your way...Thinker wants you to love her. Right now she wants you to say, "I don't want any of this. I love you as a husband should. I want to work on my marriage and do the things Steve says. I don't want to give up on us. I love you and I am in love with you. I know I made a mistake with that other woman and she was wrong for me, I want you as my wife, not her." That's what she wants...What does SNL want...He wants thinker to say, "Okay, so we don't have to be married anymore, but I will still work for you. I will do everything you say in our business because I know it's for my own good, and for my families own good. You can come here and eat in the house with us, you can have your showers in the house. When you want to hang out, feel free. Will have a good emotional no sex, no husband/wife relationship. You can have everything just as it is now, but you don't have to love me, want me or fulfill my emotionals needs as of a wife, but at the same time, I will give you yours."Unfortunately, I don't see either of these happening.Thinker wants your love as a husband or she doesn't want you in her life at all...It's that simple.You want Thinker's emotional support but you don't want to love her...You won't get this...it's that simple.SNL, my stbx wanted basically what you wanted...I didn't want that. We had to much hostility for both of us to even do that.I did worry about the future. I wondered if I could do it on my own.Oh yea, we both had to adjust and make changes. I am working full time outside of the home, I can't take off when the kids are out a day of school, This company makes 4 times more than our company, I have to adjust to more pressures. He is working for a boss that he doesn't like...He likes working for himself, he doesn't like taking orders... He thought I would always be his employee...He hates that he lost his company but at the same time, I could no longer work for him.I was concerned about getting another job. I wondered if I had the skills to be a bookkeeper and an Office Manager for someone else. I have only done my own companies books. I wasn't comfortable with my skills. I was self-taught. I was not for sure of my own talents.Now, I have been with my company for a month. I make good money. I have confidence that I can do the job. I get a lot of praise. I just got a raise after being there only a month. The CPA at our company has told my boss that out of all the years of being in business my accounting skills are better than any bookkeeper that company has ever had. My job isn't perfect, but I have to say, I'm getting praise and admiration I never got in the 5 years of working for my stbx's company. There's emotional needs my new job is fulfilling that my stbx couldn't fulfill in my career. I really like who I am becoming in my professional career. I am much more satisfied.This was what I needed....Not what my stbx needed. I have a feeling when Thinker starts working for someone else. When she gets praise and appreciation. When she gets confidence in knowing she can work for someone else and do a good job, she will also get an emotional fulfillment that she didn't get with you. Let's face it, spouses take each other for granted.BTW, stbx sees that I am taking care of the kids and me, he see life didn't end when he stopped paying the bills, and unfortunately, he hates it. The other day when he said he doesn't have the money to pay child support until next week and I told him that was okay, I will be fine this week without it, he said something like, "Fine Ms. Independently wealthy." I could hear the resentment in his voice...What did he want me to do? Say, I can't make it, please give me the money...Did he want to be a hero and save his family from starving?Like I said, "This was for me." I took care of my family. He may have thought he had to, but he is learning...I'm doing just fine.ANNA[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
and Anna is turning into somewhat of a mediator herself - dangerous position to be in, I would think (emotionally, Anna. I commend you for your effort though). If I have to try to speak to one of you, you're the one who at least makes an attempt at listening to me, and respecting what I have to say.
<hr></blockquote>
Sheryl,You are right, and I had this same concern about three post ago. There's a danger here. One danger I see is that frustrations turn on the mediator. Also, that I will get to close to the situation. Instead of empathizing with each of them, I will sympathize...So far I've done good not to be angry at either's choices, and I don't feel emotionally attached to this problem. I do see just two human beings, dealing with emotions as they separate. Also, Sheryl, I do think you have your head on straight...IF you think you aren't helping matters, like in Thinker's case, you stay off...You do a good job setting your limits, also and knowing when you have to take care of "Sheryl".You have always gave good advice. I think everyone on this thread has given good advice, those that I don't agree with and those that I do. There are no easy answers when separating...There's only each others points of views...and everyone has a valid point.Well, I said this a while ago, but I'm gonna get off here for awhile.I was gonna houseclean, but I think I'll go into the office for awhile and catch up on some old work...c'ya'll,ANNA

Just checking back in to remind snl that he is indeed important.Elizabeth

thx jw, made me smile [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I may get blasted fr this but I'm going to say it anyway. Just because you are "practical" doesn't mean everyone thinks the same as you. It seems to me if you really wanted this to work, you would be willing to make some sacrifices and not be so intent on having it suit you so much. It may not seem fair, but with everything comes a price. Sometimes, should we wait too long, holding out for what we want, there may come a time when it is no longer available, at any price. It sounds like you are in a battle and by relenting any at all, you would feel like you lost. Sometimes when we "win" it isn't worth what we paid for it in the long run.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by longtimefool:
I may get blasted fr this but I'm going to say it anyway. Just because you are "practical" doesn't mean everyone thinks the same as you. It seems to me if you really wanted this to work, you would be willing to make some sacrifices and not be so intent on having it suit you so much. It may not seem fair, but with everything comes a price. Sometimes, should we wait too long, holding out for what we want, there may come a time when it is no longer available, at any price. It sounds like you are in a battle and by relenting any at all, you would feel like you lost. Sometimes when we "win" it isn't worth what we paid for it in the long run<hr></blockquote>Very wise words, LTF.

Thank you Resilient.
Personal experience, learned the hard way, but never to be forgotten!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
Guess I will reply to my own thread. One thing I have wondered about it the last year here is how acrimonious marriage is when it gets to sepetation/divorce.....why is that? I have come to beleive it is in part a temperament difference, another one of those uncrossable gulfs, and fit issues. [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<hr></blockquote> If you think about it from a purely objective view it makes perfect sense.
Okay, when you were with the OW you had already gotten to the point where you had emotionally detached from Thinker in a romantic and "husbandly" way, this had probably started happening to you a long time before the OW was in the picture and by the time she came along it cemented in you feelings that were already there. When you were doing this you were already mentally and emotionally preparing yourself to detach from Thinker. The OW also probably eased the transition between these times, not that I'm saying she was the cause, most likely no, but certainly the catalyst for you to begin to be able to see life beyond your marriage. Gave it reality.
Now Thinker for all of divorce threats(to be taken as seriously as a petulant teenager yelling "I hate you, I'm going to kill myself!" when they don't get what they want) had not begun the process. In her mind she has still attached and comfortable with life as is and not able to see beyond marriage, probably never seriously crossed her mind. She seems to have attachment/abandonment issues as well and so probably saw you much like her father. Someone who would always be there no matter what, even if she abused you emotionally and said some horrible things.
Right now what you are seeing is natural and unfortunately the outcome of her not being prepared, not being emotionally unattached and also the initial betrayl which got things moving.
You had the ability to do this at your own pace, for good or ill. She has not and so she's fighting back like a cornered animal, expecting otherwise is very unrealistic.
It would be great if all divorces could be handled on civil terms but reality is that when one person is doing the leaving(add to it an initial A, even when it's not the cause and in your case I don't think it is) the other is going to react with anger, confusion, saddness and just general vitrol.
It's too bad that you can't leave totally, I really do believe that it is what thinker truly needs to get a handle on life as a single person. With you there, there will always be the opportunity for her to try and guilt you or rage at you into coming back and that kind of makes moving on impossible

SNL,I just skimmed this but I have 3 things to say;

JTW is right you are important
listen to Heartpain & Sherly both are very wise people, learn from them
I let the STBX visit the boys in my home with or without me here, he lives an 1 1/2 hrs away & other wise there would not be a chance for the boys to see their day during the wk. If I am hear sometimes I join in the conversation but as the months pass, I join in less & less. do I like this not, really but it works for the boys. & they are who most important. The STBX & I are very civil to each other. We only fight in email.

I wish both you & thinker peace. I hope you find it.[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sing ]

SNL,I hope my post here does not step on too many toes--maybe a few though. I can relate to what is happening with you and thinker because it is very similar to what happened with my H and I. We owned a business together for TEN YEARS. We worked side by side, toe to toe, building the business, and as I said on thinker's thread, I was not just a W who did the filing and answered the phones, I was an equal partner, working FT at the business, doing all the household chores too, and then working more hours at night. Unfortunately, my H tended to look at me as it sounds like you're looking at thinker...like I "owed" it to the business to pull my weight. Like I was a co-owner on paper, but he was the one who really ran things and I was a glorified secretary. Somehow, I had an obligation to the business, but it had no obligation to me.In reality, the true obligation was to myself and to our marriage and family. My duty was to provide financial support--NOT to provide the finances only through that business. My MUCH, MUCH higher obligation was to my own mental and physical health, my children, and the relationship with my H. You see, the theory is that I need to take care of myself; I need to care for my children because they are a lifetime relationship; and I need to make sure that the love between myself and my H is STRONG and can withstand, because it is ALSO a lifetime relationship. The business, OTOH, may come and the business may go. It may succeed and it may fail. And if it FAILS and I have not been true to my REAL obligations of myself, my kids, and my marriage, then they will be ripped apart too.thinker has an obligation to assist in providing for the payment of household bills, in whatever way she is able--she does NOT have a duty to work for your business. Especially when you do not see her work as a loving gesture of support or recognize how she contributes. If she were to get a 30hr/wk job right now as an LPN, and bring home sufficient pay, she has met her "obligation" of contributing to the bills and has not lifted one finger to the business. So...while I understand your position--after all, my H is a practical, logical, reasoning type like yourself--I would challenge you to rethink. She "owes" the business nothing--especially in the instance where the business does not owe her gratitude and appreciation.Personally, I suggest a logical solution, like move all the parts and files etc. out into the garage, and allow you access to the garage, but change the locks on the house. That way, you can access your parts when you need to without being demanding or intrusive on the house. Look, the fact of the matter is that you have chosen to NOT work on repairing your relationship with thinker. You absolutely have the right and free will to make that choice, and I have no doubt that you think it is hopeless and too far gone. But the consequence of choosing to not try and not work a reasonable plan and not cooperate by doing "homework" is that you do not get the benefits of your home and your wife. Period. You sleep alone now. You make your own breakfast, lunch and dinner now. You shower or clean up or whatever you do, on your own now. You do your own laundry. EVERYTHING. She does NOTHING for you now, and owes you NOTHING, because you have no obligation to her. That seems QUITE logical to me. If she has a duty to you, then you have a duty to her. If you have NOT duty to her--or if you choose not to honor that duty--then she has no duty to you! Clear. Straightforward. Rational. 
CJ

hi snl,
I dont think all of your requests in this separation are unreasonable. There seems to be room for compromise here.
It might be too much to expect thinker to have you over for meals, laundry or other personal things. But I don't think it is too much to expect a decent work environment. I don't happen to like, respect or get chummy with all my coworkers, but as an adult, I do expect us to get the job done. That doesn't mean I have to eat dinner with them, tell jokes, talk about my issues or my deepest fears in life!
I think it is possible for people to put aside personal issues, focus on work, be productive and find some measure of accomplishment in the task at hand-no matter who you are working with.
snl, why are you separating instead of divorcing?

I'll weigh in with, what is more important, your business or your marriage ?By forcing the business issuses, right now, you are endangering both, IMHO.

thx cl, another vote for reason, and adult behaviour...be that as it may, this is a highly emotional time, and I understand that, but thx for the input. We are seperateing because (a la MB) we both find it impossible to protect the other, with thinker probably being hurt the most. There is absolutely no way for her to heal, and deal with her stuff, with me in close proximity, it would take a lot of time, and not be appropriate, to fully explain the psychological/emotional interactions between thinker and I, they are fairly complex, and each in our own way very strong-willed, we also have tremendous capacity to hurt each other, and unfortunately that is what we do....not necessarily on purpose, but because of who we are. Hopefully the seperation will clear the emotional air some, and then we will be able to work out our lives.rwd, this is not about the business, this is about responsibility, I don't see it as either/or. Nor am I insisting thinker do this forever, she clearly wants out, I am ok with that, but it has to be done in a responsible manner...I absolutely refuse to accept emotional input into financial behaviour....I consider such the height of irresponsibility, and will react accordingly...it is a boundary for me, an immutable one.

SnL,
You say YOU don't think it is either/or, but how does thinker see it ?That is the biggest problem, you both are looking at the same problem but from different angles. You two must find a compromise in order to work together right now.What I meant about what was more important, by you focusing on the business needs, don't you think you are further isolating thinker? She seems to think so if I am reading her posts correctly.

I am not sure rwd, I don't really know what thinker thinks, we do not communicate such things very well, hardly at all actually. I don't know if she feels isolated, or just irritated at having to work with me...but for the most part I don't think it relevant....I am not happy either, and we have a job so do, an obligation to our kids, and our own survival...if she can't understand that, and act accordingly, it is so foregin to my thinking that it is incomprehensible, and all I can do is react...that is in part the reason for the seperation, we are so far apart, so different on our worldview we don't even understand each other at all, and view what the other does as threatening and hurtful....that is no good for either of us....I push too hard cause I think she is being stubborn and childish, and she thinks I am pushing to be controlling and abusive...the reality is we have to make money to live, and if I could do it without her, I'd agree with her quiting in a heartbeat. I feel she is very disrespectful of my responsibility to provide for the family, even though she has enjoyed the fruits of this effort....and I resent it deeply she has made this area one of contention for us. In so doing I think she has taken advantage of my desire to provide for us, and used it as a way of picking at me, it feels very unfair.

hi snl,
I have followed some of your posts and problems in your marriage so realize it is complex. I don't post or read a lot anymore-have been here wayyyyyy too long! Prior to the first mb meltdown when some of us lost our login names.
I just wondered what prompted the idea of separation as opposed to divorce? Other than the children, I cannot see that there is a thread of commonality in your relationship? I am actually asking you to explore your own feelings toward separation, plan b and divorce and see what you come up with. Maybe you have and I have missed it.
Sending hugs (((((snl))))) cl

I am probably not seeing the whole picture here, but what I see is the current problem, Plan B, is it a temporary situation which is how I see it or a long term situation ?I see thinker seeing it as a short term situation to get your marriage back on track and you see it as a long term situation and I can see your concerns if that were the case.Again my point, is how are you two going to work on your marriage if you are fighting/not talking/whatever about work?You guys need a POJA.My biggest problem is that I think and see things as a bs. I would think if I were a ws, I would do whatever it took to get back in my spouses good graces, and what I see is concerns about your needs.My x kind of took the same tact with me at our counseling. She kept blaming me for my defiencies. These LBs added up and when she started seeing the om again, I had enough and restarted the divorce papers. To me that seems to were you are heading.[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: RWD ]

hi rwd,
thanks for clarifying what i see as a problem with understandings of plan b, separation and divorce.
Hope you are doing well.

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread either, I just don't have the patience these days for either of your long drawn out diatribes (I recognize that was a judgemental comment). But, it is how I FEEL and SNL, you of all people should understand that one just feels what they do and it is ok.Anyway, I digress. While you havne't shared the specifics of your business (other than it has to do with HVAC repair and you are the technician and she is the office/bookeepper person). How long have you been in business? How do you share profits/debt? Is she paid a salary? Are you? Or do you just take in the revenues, pay the business bills and then buy the groceries and pay the mortgage with what is left over? Do you file taxes seperately on the biz? Is is a corporation or a partnership or how is it catogorized by the IRS? And one question (certainly a disrespectful judgement and none of my business), but how do you ever make any money at it when you are on the computer at least 40 hours a week????It seems to me that the services of an accountant or lawyer are necessary here to give the two of you an expert opinion as to the viability of splitting up the business? Who is going to get what and who is going to have to give/do what?SNL, what you are asking - that Thinker keep doing what she has done, at least transitionally so you can come up with a plan as to how to move the business forward (or shut it down) IS NOT UNREASONABLE!! But, you and I both know she isn't going to do it. She can't. She won't. And your expectation of her is only going to continue to frustrate you.See an expert.

I'm confused a bit here, SnL. Why are you so surprised, you've been reading here for so long.Since I read that Thinker is going into Plan B, and since you DO KNOW the Harley's principals so very well (disrespectful judgments, etc. and all ......) wouldn't you consider "Financial Support" an Emotional Need of yours? I certainly would.Financial Support = Thinker working for SnLAnd isn't one of the primary purposes of Plan B to NOT meet any of the Emotional Needs of the Wayward Spouse?I really think this is what it all boils down to, IMHO.Jo[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]

SNL,Why not end the business now rather than later?
Go ahead and bite the bullet and go back to work for someone else...that way you'll pretty much know what your income will be and can start the child support payments as direct deposit..from your check..take out any insurances and such that you'll need to take out..When you are in place with a company you can contat all of your customers and let them know that you are now working for whoever..and take their business with you...Or close your business down as it is now..
and reopen it under another name for you alone..
and hire someone else to do thinkers job..move the offices to your new home..and make an office there for someone else to work from so that all of your records are together..or hire thinker to come to your home/office and work..Which would seem to actually work the best..you take all of your office and tool stuff to new home
and then you can hire thinker..as an employee..
then after her 8 hour shift she can go home..and you have access to all of your tools and business records..you'd have someone who knows the business and the customers..and who knows..maybe by seperating the two business and home..you could actually gain a marriage relationship again..

I will comment since I am thinker, When we lived in Virginia my WH started with a company there in HVAC, and little by little started his own HVAC business there parttime, then moved into it full time. I did the calls, the records, the banking etc. I couldn't get parts, cause we had 4 little kids, and I did day care in the home and gave piano lessons. We we moved to Michigan 13 years ago, I ran the business in Virginia, and he started one in Michigan. He would go for 3 or 4 days in Virginia and I would set calls for the days he was here in MIchigan. Eventually the Virginia he ended and did the business here in Michigan. I took the calls, dispatched, records, and I also worked part time nursing. When I didn't do nursing, I took in daycare.SNL depends on me for the business, I have things organized, and easy to find. I tried for 2 years now to get it on the computer, but SNL was not wanting to at that time. Now of course, he doesn't want to cause he wants to give the business up. We are separated, for the reason we are on each others back. I think the threshold of SNL and the midlife crisis has taken an effect on him. I know my menopause got rough, but I sought help and am grateful for a great OBGYN. I feel SNL has hit that midlife crisis, he does not have a good opinion of himself, degrades himself frequently, and finds fault with us here. States to me that none of us love him, which is not true. I love him very much, and this is why it hurts so much. The kids are having a hard time with the affair issue, and it must be difficult for the one son who read SNL sexual e-mail he was sending to the other woman, SNL accidentally sent it to the sons printer. Steve Harley will not help SNL and I with the separation, SNL is not in the separation to try to achieve a cool down time, SNL wants the separation for divorce, and the Harleys do not work on divorce. They are here for the purpose of saving marriages, not destroying marriages, or criticizing marriages.My input for now.