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snl - I stated that I would not reply to thinker anymore, but I choose to continue to exercise my right to respond to you, unless you object....<p>You do take quite a beating on these forums from time to time, maybe deservedly in some cases. But as I told your wife, many of the questions you seek answers to are questions I have asked myself before. I came to different conclusions than you but that doesn't make me right and you wrong.<p>Anyway, I don't think you are going to get what you want here. Thinker isn't going to be reasonable, in small part because it is emotional trauma. The larger part, I believe, I stated on her thread. It really does appear that her biggest motivator is control.<p>She has used the threat of divorce to try to control you(I think that is one reason she refused to respond to many of my questions) and that failed. She has been using this upcoming separation as a means of control. Since you didn't cave in to her, she extends several new rules to push more buttons. When that doesn't work, it will be something else.<p>It will always be something with her. Now, I don't find you completely blameless here. You have to do something to break this cycle of control rather than stringing it along.<p>Just move out, try to do everything you can on your own without giving her any excuse at all to complain about you not "following the rules". As was suggested above, if it's possible find someone else to take over thinker's job. She will have to make a decision, 1) become a "silent" partner; or, 2) exit the business entirely and just accept some sort of financial settlement. You will probably have to make that decision for her as "indecision" will probably be used to try once again to control you.<p>You do seem to "want your cake and eat it too" as Anna suggested, but so does thinker. Unless you both enjoy living like this, someone has to be strong enough to break the cycle.<p>Obviously, it would be great if everyone who has to separate or divorce could do so amicably. Unfortunately, that is not often the case. You do apply logic to a lot of life's questions. Logic would dictate that you get as far away from thinker as possible right now. There is some possibility that the two of you could end up back together or part amicably, but it's not going to happen right now.<p>Anna said, ".Quit trying to control her..". She is not being totally fair here. There are control attempts being attempted by both parties here. At least of the two of you, you seem best able to look at the objective side of an argument. You've got to see these control issues if you really look. And if you can see them then you could at least stop your part in it.<p>Anna said, "you sound very dependent on Thinker in so many ways..". She may be right, but this is also a two-way street.<p>You guys need to be apart right now. Find a way to make it so....

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yes you are right anna, it is the weak spot for us rationalists, we just cannot fathom how emotions interfere with getting issues resolved, so we push too much....I really don't know what is going on in thinker, she is clearly distressed, all I can do is just let it go I guess. Trouble is, that triggers me, our whole marriage has been like that, she gets emotional, and I still have to solve all the problems, knowing I will be critized if she does not like how I resolve stuff....I just cannot deal with people who emotionally retreat....leaves me terribly frustrated.... I am fine dealing with my stuff, but what do you do when someone else is affected? If I had my way, I would just say the heck with all this, and disappear, I am quite capable of taking care of myself...let her fend for herself and kids, but alss, that would be irresponsible of me...so I don't, but then I have to deal with (and stuff) the frustration when I am not allowed to do the job right. This is another fit issue anna, but anyways, like you said, and I agree, nothing is served by stressing thinker more, the sooner we get this over the better, and hopefully she can heal.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>bizarre isn't it. I can only imagine the confusion those of you who have followed us the last year experience.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Honest to God, no confusion here. I have tried to be helpful to thinker, but she did not want to hear me. Much like DeWayne, I chose to stay away from her for MY SPIRIT.<p>As an aside, I certainly was not helping her either - BUT I COULD HAVE.<p>I am really LOATHE to choose sides here, but I sure can't imagine going back and forth between the two of you anymore -- and Anna is turning into somewhat of a mediator herself - dangerous position to be in, I would think (emotionally, Anna. I commend you for your effort though). If I have to try to speak to one of you, you're the one who at least makes an attempt at listening to me, and respecting what I have to say.<p>There is no confusion, SNL, because you are clear as a bell, for those of us who find the truths in the midst of your diatribes - and MANY of us do. <p>With my ex, David, there was, and still is, a kind of love. I couldn't label it for a million bucks, but it's there. We never fight anymore, although our marriage was FILLED with it. It was as if once we 'let go' we were safe to just be ourselves. And ourselves, well, they were pretty nice people underneath it all. We speak kindly always now, although we do have some disagreements. But the underlying respect is there. He was a butthole for a long time, and I was a fat nagging wife. That was SO BIG at that time, but didn't matter anymore once we really did get the divorce going. <p>The difference for you two, I think, is that the underlying love is NOT there. You keep saying there is love, thinker keeps saying there is love, but if it's there, I don't see it. I see two people who are pissed as hell at eachother and trying to exert control over the other one. No, I don't see hate, but I don't see love either. <p>So, in conclusion (as if this is an essay, which it's turning into)... I am not confused.

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SNL,<p>I can see why thinker is upset. I even see why you are upset...<p>Neither of you are getting your way...<p>Thinker wants you to love her. Right now she wants you to say, "I don't want any of this. I love you as a husband should. I want to work on my marriage and do the things Steve says. I don't want to give up on us. I love you and I am in love with you. I know I made a mistake with that other woman and she was wrong for me, I want you as my wife, not her." <p>That's what she wants...<p>What does SNL want...<p>He wants thinker to say, "Okay, so we don't have to be married anymore, but I will still work for you. I will do everything you say in our business because I know it's for my own good, and for my families own good. You can come here and eat in the house with us, you can have your showers in the house. When you want to hang out, feel free. Will have a good emotional no sex, no husband/wife relationship. You can have everything just as it is now, but you don't have to love me, want me or fulfill my emotionals needs as of a wife, but at the same time, I will give you yours."<p>Unfortunately, I don't see either of these happening.<p>Thinker wants your love as a husband or she doesn't want you in her life at all...It's that simple.<p>You want Thinker's emotional support but you don't want to love her...You won't get this...it's that simple.<p>SNL, my stbx wanted basically what you wanted...I didn't want that. We had to much hostility for both of us to even do that.<p>I did worry about the future. I wondered if I could do it on my own.<p>Oh yea, we both had to adjust and make changes. I am working full time outside of the home, I can't take off when the kids are out a day of school, This company makes 4 times more than our company, I have to adjust to more pressures. He is working for a boss that he doesn't like...He likes working for himself, he doesn't like taking orders... He thought I would always be his employee...He hates that he lost his company but at the same time, I could no longer work for him.<p>I was concerned about getting another job. I wondered if I had the skills to be a bookkeeper and an Office Manager for someone else. I have only done my own companies books. I wasn't comfortable with my skills. I was self-taught. I was not for sure of my own talents.<p>Now, I have been with my company for a month. I make good money. I have confidence that I can do the job. I get a lot of praise. I just got a raise after being there only a month. The CPA at our company has told my boss that out of all the years of being in business my accounting skills are better than any bookkeeper that company has ever had. My job isn't perfect, but I have to say, I'm getting praise and admiration I never got in the 5 years of working for my stbx's company. There's emotional needs my new job is fulfilling that my stbx couldn't fulfill in my career. I really like who I am becoming in my professional career. I am much more satisfied.<p>This was what I needed....Not what my stbx needed. <p>I have a feeling when Thinker starts working for someone else. When she gets praise and appreciation. When she gets confidence in knowing she can work for someone else and do a good job, she will also get an emotional fulfillment that she didn't get with you. Let's face it, spouses take each other for granted.<p>BTW, stbx sees that I am taking care of the kids and me, he see life didn't end when he stopped paying the bills, and unfortunately, he hates it. The other day when he said he doesn't have the money to pay child support until next week and I told him that was okay, I will be fine this week without it, he said something like, "Fine Ms. Independently wealthy." I could hear the resentment in his voice...What did he want me to do? Say, I can't make it, please give me the money...Did he want to be a hero and save his family from starving?<p>Like I said, "This was for me." I took care of my family. He may have thought he had to, but he is learning...I'm doing just fine.<p>ANNA<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>and Anna is turning into somewhat of a mediator herself - dangerous position to be in, I would think (emotionally, Anna. I commend you for your effort though). If I have to try to speak to one of you, you're the one who at least makes an attempt at listening to me, and respecting what I have to say.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Sheryl,<p>You are right, and I had this same concern about three post ago. There's a danger here. One danger I see is that frustrations turn on the mediator. Also, that I will get to close to the situation. Instead of empathizing with each of them, I will sympathize...<p>So far I've done good not to be angry at either's choices, and I don't feel emotionally attached to this problem. I do see just two human beings, dealing with emotions as they separate. <p>Also, Sheryl, I do think you have your head on straight...IF you think you aren't helping matters, like in Thinker's case, you stay off...<p>You do a good job setting your limits, also and knowing when you have to take care of "Sheryl".<p>You have always gave good advice. I think everyone on this thread has given good advice, those that I don't agree with and those that I do. There are no easy answers when separating...There's only each others points of views...and everyone has a valid point.<p>Well, I said this a while ago, but I'm gonna get off here for awhile.<p>I was gonna houseclean, but I think I'll go into the office for awhile and catch up on some old work...<p>c'ya'll,<p>ANNA

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Just checking back in to remind snl that he is indeed important.<p>Elizabeth

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thx jw, made me smile [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

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I may get blasted fr this but I'm going to say it anyway. Just because you are "practical" doesn't mean everyone thinks the same as you. It seems to me if you really wanted this to work, you would be willing to make some sacrifices and not be so intent on having it suit you so much. It may not seem fair, but with everything comes a price. Sometimes, should we wait too long, holding out for what we want, there may come a time when it is no longer available, at any price. It sounds like you are in a battle and by relenting any at all, you would feel like you lost. Sometimes when we "win" it isn't worth what we paid for it in the long run.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by longtimefool:
I may get blasted fr this but I'm going to say it anyway. Just because you are "practical" doesn't mean everyone thinks the same as you. It seems to me if you really wanted this to work, you would be willing to make some sacrifices and not be so intent on having it suit you so much. It may not seem fair, but with everything comes a price. Sometimes, should we wait too long, holding out for what we want, there may come a time when it is no longer available, at any price. It sounds like you are in a battle and by relenting any at all, you would feel like you lost. Sometimes when we "win" it isn't worth what we paid for it in the long run<hr></blockquote><p>Very wise words, LTF.

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Thank you Resilient.
Personal experience, learned the hard way, but never to be forgotten!

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>Guess I will reply to my own thread. One thing I have wondered about it the last year here is how acrimonious marriage is when it gets to sepetation/divorce.....why is that? I have come to beleive it is in part a temperament difference, another one of those uncrossable gulfs, and fit issues. [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p> If you think about it from a purely objective view it makes perfect sense.
Okay, when you were with the OW you had already gotten to the point where you had emotionally detached from Thinker in a romantic and "husbandly" way, this had probably started happening to you a long time before the OW was in the picture and by the time she came along it cemented in you feelings that were already there. When you were doing this you were already mentally and emotionally preparing yourself to detach from Thinker. The OW also probably eased the transition between these times, not that I'm saying she was the cause, most likely no, but certainly the catalyst for you to begin to be able to see life beyond your marriage. Gave it reality.
Now Thinker for all of divorce threats(to be taken as seriously as a petulant teenager yelling "I hate you, I'm going to kill myself!" when they don't get what they want) had not begun the process. In her mind she has still attached and comfortable with life as is and not able to see beyond marriage, probably never seriously crossed her mind. She seems to have attachment/abandonment issues as well and so probably saw you much like her father. Someone who would always be there no matter what, even if she abused you emotionally and said some horrible things.
Right now what you are seeing is natural and unfortunately the outcome of her not being prepared, not being emotionally unattached and also the initial betrayl which got things moving.
You had the ability to do this at your own pace, for good or ill. She has not and so she's fighting back like a cornered animal, expecting otherwise is very unrealistic.
It would be great if all divorces could be handled on civil terms but reality is that when one person is doing the leaving(add to it an initial A, even when it's not the cause and in your case I don't think it is) the other is going to react with anger, confusion, saddness and just general vitrol.
It's too bad that you can't leave totally, I really do believe that it is what thinker truly needs to get a handle on life as a single person. With you there, there will always be the opportunity for her to try and guilt you or rage at you into coming back and that kind of makes moving on impossible

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SNL,<p>I just skimmed this but I have 3 things to say;
  • JTW is right you are important
  • listen to Heartpain & Sherly both are very wise people, learn from them
  • I let the STBX visit the boys in my home with or without me here, he lives an 1 1/2 hrs away & other wise there would not be a chance for the boys to see their day during the wk. If I am hear sometimes I join in the conversation but as the months pass, I join in less & less. do I like this not, really but it works for the boys. & they are who most important. The STBX & I are very civil to each other. We only fight in email.
<p>I wish both you & thinker peace. I hope you find it.<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: sing ]</p>

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SNL,<p>I hope my post here does not step on too many toes--maybe a few though. I can relate to what is happening with you and thinker because it is very similar to what happened with my H and I. We owned a business together for TEN YEARS. We worked side by side, toe to toe, building the business, and as I said on thinker's thread, I was not just a W who did the filing and answered the phones, I was an equal partner, working FT at the business, doing all the household chores too, and then working more hours at night. <p>Unfortunately, my H tended to look at me as it sounds like you're looking at thinker...like I "owed" it to the business to pull my weight. Like I was a co-owner on paper, but he was the one who really ran things and I was a glorified secretary. Somehow, I had an obligation to the business, but it had no obligation to me.<p>In reality, the true obligation was to myself and to our marriage and family. My duty was to provide financial support--NOT to provide the finances only through that business. My MUCH, MUCH higher obligation was to my own mental and physical health, my children, and the relationship with my H. <p>You see, the theory is that I need to take care of myself; I need to care for my children because they are a lifetime relationship; and I need to make sure that the love between myself and my H is STRONG and can withstand, because it is ALSO a lifetime relationship. The business, OTOH, may come and the business may go. It may succeed and it may fail. And if it FAILS and I have not been true to my REAL obligations of myself, my kids, and my marriage, then they will be ripped apart too.<p>thinker has an obligation to assist in providing for the payment of household bills, in whatever way she is able--she does NOT have a duty to work for your business. Especially when you do not see her work as a loving gesture of support or recognize how she contributes. If she were to get a 30hr/wk job right now as an LPN, and bring home sufficient pay, she has met her "obligation" of contributing to the bills and has not lifted one finger to the business. <p>So...while I understand your position--after all, my H is a practical, logical, reasoning type like yourself--I would challenge you to rethink. She "owes" the business nothing--especially in the instance where the business does not owe her gratitude and appreciation.<p>Personally, I suggest a logical solution, like move all the parts and files etc. out into the garage, and allow you access to the garage, but change the locks on the house. That way, you can access your parts when you need to without being demanding or intrusive on the house. <p>Look, the fact of the matter is that you have chosen to NOT work on repairing your relationship with thinker. You absolutely have the right and free will to make that choice, and I have no doubt that you think it is hopeless and too far gone. But the consequence of choosing to not try and not work a reasonable plan and not cooperate by doing "homework" is that you do not get the benefits of your home and your wife. Period. You sleep alone now. You make your own breakfast, lunch and dinner now. You shower or clean up or whatever you do, on your own now. You do your own laundry. EVERYTHING. She does NOTHING for you now, and owes you NOTHING, because you have no obligation to her. <p>That seems QUITE logical to me. If she has a duty to you, then you have a duty to her. If you have NOT duty to her--or if you choose not to honor that duty--then she has no duty to you! Clear. Straightforward. Rational. <p>
CJ

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hi snl,
I dont think all of your requests in this separation are unreasonable. There seems to be room for compromise here.
It might be too much to expect thinker to have you over for meals, laundry or other personal things. But I don't think it is too much to expect a decent work environment. I don't happen to like, respect or get chummy with all my coworkers, but as an adult, I do expect us to get the job done. That doesn't mean I have to eat dinner with them, tell jokes, talk about my issues or my deepest fears in life!
I think it is possible for people to put aside personal issues, focus on work, be productive and find some measure of accomplishment in the task at hand-no matter who you are working with.
snl, why are you separating instead of divorcing?

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I'll weigh in with, what is more important, your business or your marriage ?<p>By forcing the business issuses, right now, you are endangering both, IMHO.

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thx cl, another vote for reason, and adult behaviour...be that as it may, this is a highly emotional time, and I understand that, but thx for the input. We are seperateing because (a la MB) we both find it impossible to protect the other, with thinker probably being hurt the most. There is absolutely no way for her to heal, and deal with her stuff, with me in close proximity, it would take a lot of time, and not be appropriate, to fully explain the psychological/emotional interactions between thinker and I, they are fairly complex, and each in our own way very strong-willed, we also have tremendous capacity to hurt each other, and unfortunately that is what we do....not necessarily on purpose, but because of who we are. Hopefully the seperation will clear the emotional air some, and then we will be able to work out our lives.<p>rwd, this is not about the business, this is about responsibility, I don't see it as either/or. Nor am I insisting thinker do this forever, she clearly wants out, I am ok with that, but it has to be done in a responsible manner...I absolutely refuse to accept emotional input into financial behaviour....I consider such the height of irresponsibility, and will react accordingly...it is a boundary for me, an immutable one.

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SnL,
You say YOU don't think it is either/or, but how does thinker see it ?<p>That is the biggest problem, you both are looking at the same problem but from different angles. You two must find a compromise in order to work together right now.<p>What I meant about what was more important, by you focusing on the business needs, don't you think you are further isolating thinker? She seems to think so if I am reading her posts correctly.

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I am not sure rwd, I don't really know what thinker thinks, we do not communicate such things very well, hardly at all actually. I don't know if she feels isolated, or just irritated at having to work with me...but for the most part I don't think it relevant....I am not happy either, and we have a job so do, an obligation to our kids, and our own survival...if she can't understand that, and act accordingly, it is so foregin to my thinking that it is incomprehensible, and all I can do is react...that is in part the reason for the seperation, we are so far apart, so different on our worldview we don't even understand each other at all, and view what the other does as threatening and hurtful....that is no good for either of us....I push too hard cause I think she is being stubborn and childish, and she thinks I am pushing to be controlling and abusive...the reality is we have to make money to live, and if I could do it without her, I'd agree with her quiting in a heartbeat. I feel she is very disrespectful of my responsibility to provide for the family, even though she has enjoyed the fruits of this effort....and I resent it deeply she has made this area one of contention for us. In so doing I think she has taken advantage of my desire to provide for us, and used it as a way of picking at me, it feels very unfair.

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hi snl,
I have followed some of your posts and problems in your marriage so realize it is complex. I don't post or read a lot anymore-have been here wayyyyyy too long! Prior to the first mb meltdown when some of us lost our login names.
I just wondered what prompted the idea of separation as opposed to divorce? Other than the children, I cannot see that there is a thread of commonality in your relationship? I am actually asking you to explore your own feelings toward separation, plan b and divorce and see what you come up with. Maybe you have and I have missed it.
Sending hugs (((((snl))))) cl

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I am probably not seeing the whole picture here, but what I see is the current problem, Plan B, is it a temporary situation which is how I see it or a long term situation ?<p>I see thinker seeing it as a short term situation to get your marriage back on track and you see it as a long term situation and I can see your concerns if that were the case.<p>Again my point, is how are you two going to work on your marriage if you are fighting/not talking/whatever about work?<p>You guys need a POJA.<p>My biggest problem is that I think and see things as a bs. I would think if I were a ws, I would do whatever it took to get back in my spouses good graces, and what I see is concerns about your needs.<p>My x kind of took the same tact with me at our counseling. She kept blaming me for my defiencies. These LBs added up and when she started seeing the om again, I had enough and restarted the divorce papers. To me that seems to were you are heading.<p>[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: RWD ]</p>

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