Hi!<p>I was reading your post on Mikkey's thread and it really struck home, as my situation is so similar. I found it interesting that because you changed, your husband left. In my case, altho I have changed and set boundaries, I don't think he will ever leave me......he is very emotionally dependant on me. At the same time, the fighting is worse because he sees my setting boundaries as "not being submissive", and constantly quotes the Bible at me to prove what an awful wife I am. <p>In my case, I also feel that God has realeased me, and I've done everything I can......but at the same time, because I am the one leaving, I am concerned about his reaction....he does not want to give up the person he dominates, controls, and relies on emotionally.<p>Sure would like your input.....

I also thought Renae's post was great. I can't be that same person who continues in an unhealthy relationship. I can finally breathe now.

(((Annavon)))
Yes, I've been hammered with "you're not submissive" etc too! They use religious concepts wrongly to cover up their emotional/relational problems!! But H was lecturing me on submisssion when I was a doormat too! A counselor told me, you will never please him, so just please God and live as a Godly wife doing what's right,carrying out your responsibilities, and with H have a balance of grace/gentleness and truth with firmness and love. Not easy!!!<p>The hardest part was that nothing ever got solved between us as a couple. When he hurt me and saw it in my facial expression, he said it was that I was unsaved, rebellious, or had an attitude problem!! (not that he did anything wrong and I was hurt and he needed to change his behavior.) But anything not done his exact way, even unintentionally, he was VERY HURT and I'd better apologize and ask forgiveness!!<p>Like your H, Annavon, my H has had an unhealthy form of emotional dependency on me too. I think it was from his doting mom who constantly served him long beyond the line of adulthood. I was supposed to do the same as she did...smile at him all the time (no kidding!!!), drop everything I was doing on the spot to meet his need, etc. This works into control, to meet his demands and expectations NOW, even when not communicated or else I'm a rebel!!! <p>The other side of him is fiercely independent-- won't please me with his appearance or budge for much of anything I want/need. <p>On top of that, his strict fundamentalist religious view that there's no separation or divorce under any circumstances... so how he's come around to divorcing now, is, he's reasoned I'm hopelessly unsubmissive and he's Godly, can't do ministry with one like me, so he's got to divorce me!! Imagine how he covers his relational immaturity and emotional illness with a noble religious ambition that God justifies him in leaving me! He even misread scripture to the kids and I last summer, that you leave wife/family to serve God!! <p>We went thru a stage where, he actually grew more controlling, trying to regain the level of power he used to have over me. He found it didn't work. <p>But he's withdrawn from me with this emotional dependency, as he sees me make up my own mind, set boundaries, and not let him interrupt my schedule all the time for every little thing.
He hates independence of any sort in a woman.
He was coming around to respectfully planning time....do you have time tomorrow afternoon to work on this project, or next week to do that?
But well.... it's done.<p>One day, he told me how he heard some people get back together after divorce, as if he expects that to happen "when I wake up"...see, I have the problem, and he says I'll figure it out when I'm alone!!!<p> ((((newly))), too.

Renae, I hope you don't mind that I clip your thoughts into my personal journal. This site says so many things that I've felt for a long time.
We have no visitation schedule in place, and my H dragged my D's away from me on Friday, as they were clinging to me, because it was "his" day. He's still controlling me through the girls, but can't see the damage he's doing to them. I called the police, but each parent has the right to the children. But if he does it again, I'm getting a TRO.
Like Thinker, my husband runs his business from the house & garage and needs access to work.
I've found a local support group which has been a source of hope for me.
This is such a sad situation for all of us on this site.

Renae, Wow! I was going to do this with quotes, but I would have just repeated the whole post. That is exactly what I live with! Right now he has sensed my emotional detatchment, and is being really nice.....came home from work today with tulips and daffodils for me, my favorite flowers. NOW, he starts being thoughtful! <p>I understand perfectly about nothing being solved....it seems we have 12 years of unsolved issues swept under the rug....you can hardly talk without running into one anymore.<p>And about the mom....my H's mom died before I met him, but that is exactly how she was. And how he expected me to be.<p>did he have trouble with affection and sex too? I went into detail about it in my post on EN if you want to see....too lengthy to type out here.
My reason for finally leaving is that I suspect he is cheating now.....but even if he's not, this is still the right decision for me and the kids.<p>How long were you married? Kids?

Annavon,
I've been "married" over 15 yrs....Two precious daughters, ages 14 and 11. <p>Ten years into the marriage (About 5 yrs ago), I fell into depression; I promised myself, I was going to heal and never let it happen again. H had been completely opposed to getting any counseling up to that time (his church is against psychology), so I secretly went to a Christian therapist who tested me, recommended meds, and urged me to file for legal separation. I was too weak to follow his advice, but did tell H that I needed separation. H would not cooperate with it, we had extra business going on, and I could not leave. I withdrew emotionally to heal and insisted that I could not homeschool & he must send the kids to Christian school. At the time, H agreed to remove some responsibilities; he did care to an extent. But, NOW (5 yrs later)H says he's mad that I withdrew emotionally back then. (Of course he can't see how his behavior had been killing me and my sanity was at stake.) He is saying I wanted to divorce him 5 yrs ago so he feels justified in divorcing me now! He refuses to see that my request for separation was not a desire on my part to divorce but to make things better; he thinks s & d are the same. Truly, he's just trying to blame me and justify himself divorcing now.<p>It is hard when you are at the point of leaving and he is being nice! I know. H has his nice side, and at those times, I used to doubt my perception of things, but the patterns of behavior have become clearer for me every year and the more I read about how men like this operate. I went through denial too, where I just didn't want to believe the worst about my H....and if this is who he really is, what will I do??!!! Well, God has helped me to heal and grow stronger. <p>The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans helped me alot. H does not communicate for mutual relationship but to dominate. He can't handle negative emotions (grief, stress, etc), so projects it on to me in the form of verbal and other abuses.<p>After this many years you know what's going on with your H, Annavon,....please draw close to God and see how HE wants you to proceed. I always recommend separation first, if possible, and counseling to see if he would be willing to change. In my case, the past couple years, H had said if I ever separated, he would file for divorce. So I stayed and tried everything to wake him up!<p>*****************
Newly, That's ok with me, for you to clip the thoughts. Hey, my husband works from the house too!!...self-employed; I doubt he'd get along with an employer. He's sorting his stuff now and will eventually move himself and the business to the house that will be his. <p>I'm concerned H will control through the girls too. Maybe having an exact visitation schedule would eliminate some of that? But how, when his work varies day to day, nights, tied up on weekends, ...basically workaholic??
*************<p>Annavon, before we married, H was very warm, gentle, very tuned in to me, loved to hug alot. Seemed like the perfect guy. After we were married?...fewer and fewer hugs, add SEX on demand!!...my duty; I'd get lectured if I dared ever to be tired, say no, or didn't (in my conscience) want what he grew to want (perverted!). Fortunately for me, he says God alerted him to stop the worst of it, and things got better, but still some controlling. But without intimate emotional relationship, I didn't feel loved....just used and misused.

My H fits the guy described in Margaret Rinck's book, "Christian Men who Hate Women." Have you read that? H believes God gave him authority and can treat me however he wants. I existed as an extention of him, not as my own person. He told me to get ALL my needs met in God, while I'm supposed to meet his. Once I'd written a definition of intimacy, H found it and rebuked me harshly, "Forget this intimacy stuff!! Go read your Bible!!" <p>Before we married, he seemed very relational, cared about feelings, etc...After wedding, he'd tell me, "Crucify your feelings! Just be thankful!...or..."...always cut me off or misjudged me!!! Due to this emotional abuse, I realized the only way to deal with my concerns was to work it out in my journal....and then he found that several times and hid it, didn't want me writing!!! He's disassembled the computer too, cut me off from family, etc. and always for what he thinks is a "Biblical" reason. All Abuse!

Oh, also, most of H's talk toward me is disciplinary like he's the parent who needs to order me around, rebuke, and punish me. I am self-disciplined (was an Elem. teacher)and frustrated with his ways toward me. Very draining. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

I also found The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans helped me alot. H does not communicate for mutual relationship but to dominate. I haven't been able to communicate that concept very well to my family members, because he was always such a nice guy around them.<p>My H is still in a fog, waiting for me to get fixed. He was a workaholic, until he moved out. Now all the things he HAD to do on Sat & Sun aren't getting done. He is spending a great deal more time with the girls, which is hard on me, but good for them. But it gives me time to read and go to support groups.
I'm in anger therapy because "its all my fault". I still wonder what I could have done differently, but I was working on a different premise, that of partnership. Now, he's even fighting me to have the kids on sundays, even though they'll miss sunday school and I'm a teacher.
We bought our home specifically so he could run his business from here, and got a variance to do it. He thinks he'll just stay there.
I found out the lawyer's name he gave me is not really representing him. So we have no rational person with whom to negotiate regarding visitation.
Renae, Thanks for your posts. It helps to know that I"m not alone.

Renae, your relationship does sound so much like mine....I also had a wake up call when I read P. Evan's book. The only difference is that your husband is typical when it comes to abusive men and sex....mine is not. Somehow he developed the warped view that it is ONLY for making babies, and enjoying it is sinful. So, he is angry at me for not wanting more children (after the 3rd, my DR recommended I not have more due to diabetes), and refuses to have sex. Which I suppose shouldn't bother me since he made it as quick and unpleasant as possible anyway.....but at least it was something!!! Now after 7 years of this I am not even attracted to him......and I'm way too young to think about living this way for the next 30 years!

(((Newly))) You are truly not alone!! <p>It would seem that somehow legally you could get him to operate his business elsewhere, so you don't have to be around him? Can you check with your attorney? <p>I guess for me it is just hard seeing H. I wish he'd move now, but he's refusing! When I see him, it makes me feel like "OH!! IF ONLY he could be a true husband to me!!!"....and it hurts!!!...I want marriage so much!! I'd rather he were out of sight instead of triggering me like this! But he can't comprehend how this tortures me. All he cares is the convenience of his business, not making anything easier for me emotionally.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

Annavon,
Yes the sexual part can be very distressing. There was no balance here...and what you describe is no balance either. Your H might have benefited from some counseling on what God's real intent is for sexuality in marriage; his belief is so wrong and you have suffered! God never intended celibacy in marriage. At one time, my H went on a tangent to the other extreme, where sex has no limits (that's where the perversion came in). I feel what I've experienced is abuse....and
also I believe neglect is a form of abuse. What does he do with the scripture that says not to
obstain except by agreement? My H quit entirely after our last marriage therapy last summer....<p>My H was VERY, entirely anti-birth-control,didn't reveal how extreme until after we married...and it frightened me that I'd be "bare-foot and pregnant" 'til menopause!! Well, as it turned out, I had the two girls. Later, doctors failed to detect an appendix rupture which damaged me & nearly took my life. H was mad that I didn't get pregnant soon after that!!...Well, then later, I got pregnant, placenta previa/strict bedrest, and our son was born with severe heart defect & died a month after birth. (might have been due to my scar tissue, previous infection in the abdomen?)After this third C-section which strangely almost took my life, doctors warned us not to conceive or it could kill me. H was devastated. Since that, the sex life had lost much of its luster for H because he loves kids. He used to be mad when I didn't get pregnant on his desired time. Now there was a circumstantial roadblock to his control. I think God was watching out for me in all of this somehow, knowing this marriage would only grow worse.<p>[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

OK Renae, your story is more devasting than mine, but I would really like to talk to someone who has read HNHN and the verbally abusive relationship about how you can reconcile the two. I don't want to get divorced, I want a good marriage. It looks like I'll need to file this week, but I wonder if there was or is anything I can do to change the situation. He doesn't realize the hurt he's caused in our marriage, and his lack of attention to me or the girls. He honestly believes he is and was a great father, but he was never around.
I'd really like to talk to you, Annavon or any others in controlling relationships offline or on the phone. I'm glad I realized what it was, but why can't he see it.
my email is mcelros@yahoo.com.
I don't have access to internet tonight, I'm in a hotel in Indianapolis on business and using a clerk's computer to type this.
I don't recall ever feeling happy in the marriage, but I'm not mentally prepared for divorce either. Particularly since he's using the girls to hurt me and doesn't even see that.
I'm seeing a counselor, but need more help from others in similar situations.
Thanks.

Newly, I understand, I want marriage too, SO SO SO badly!!...I want H to grow and get healthy too!! I don't want divorce, but H has filed.
His mind is terribly distorted, and seems to be getting worse. I can't get through to him in any way. <p>I don't know your whole story. I will
e-mail you. Write me back if there is any way I can help you. ((((Newly))))--big hugs!!

newly and Renae.....<p>It's good to find someone else who knows what this is like. <p>I have decided to move out May 1....which is really hard when I look around the house and see how much of myself I have put into, decorating, stenciling, hand painted murals......it is truly wonderful! But of course I will take the ability to redecorate with me and I wasn't taking the house to heaven with me anyway... My biggest concern with leaving is that he will be furious, and possibly dangerous. I really don't think he will let me go easily......I'm all he's got. He has no friends, his family doesn't like him, he quit going to church because every church we went to eventually rebuked him for his extreme views...... I am the only person who will listen to him and take care of him. He will be devestated when I leave......but I can't stay and let him destroy me inside....and even worse is what this teaches the kids about relationships and marriage.<p>Even after 12 years, it amazes me how seperate we are. Dividing up household goods will not be hard....he hates the dining room table I bought at an auction and painted and stenciled. I hate the modern kitchen table and chairs he bought. It's that way all over the house....we never liked each other's taste in anything...I'm flea market chic and he's anything expensive. At least my taste will fit into my new budget, lol!<p>Feel free to email me too....it's annavon2002@yahoo.com

Annavon, I assume this is a separation for a wake-up call to him? Have you ever separated before?
Or are you planning to file for divorce? Are you filing to get temporary financial support? Are you currently employed? Has he ever been willing to get counseling??<p>Since our oldest d is chronically ill so I can't get a job (we're trying a new treatment now--hope it works!), I really had to stay in the house. I heard also that typically a judge would want the kids to stay in their own home (with neighbor friends,etc) to keep their environment stable while the marriage moves to divorce. I told H it is best for the kids to stay in this house til the youngest graduates in 6 yrs, and initially he had agreed, but now is threatening to sell it to get his money out of it. I said, that's selfish, at the expense of the kids' emotional security.
(But when has he ever understood emotional needs?)
Well, I'm hanging in here.<p>Has your H ever been physically abusive? I went to the police and could have had my H kicked out of the house....but I didn't.

Renae...no, it's not a wake up call...I'm filing for divorce, but moving out first because he has threatened physical violence before and also beat his first wife...so I won't take chances. We have been in counseling 7 times......and each time he quit because the counselor told him he was the problem. I also have evidence that he is probably having sex with women while he is on the road trucking.....as he sees sex as for "whores" not "nice girls" like me......and that was the last straw. I don't want him back. I'm no longer attracted to him and I can't deal with the double standard...preaching the gospel, but not applying it to himself. He also decided not to attend church anymore because "nobody appreciates him". So he's not even a spiritual leader to our family. He bought a Harley and is going back to the biker lifestyle he had before we married... so I am done.<p>I wouldn't stay in this house because we are 7 miles from town, on an acreage. I couldn't keep it up by myself anyway, and as he has pointed out....it would take 20 minutes for the sheriff to get here if I called. The house we are moving to is within blocks of the kids best friends, so they will love it.<p>My lawyer is working out all the financial details...so I am not worrying about that right now. I have my own business, and if he pays child support, I'll be fine. If he doesn't I may have to get a part time job, but still not a problem.

OH!!!....wow...how do men get this warped??!!
God help him!!! <p>H has repeatedly said that I'm the one who is distorted!! Sorry, man, it is your own glasses!! <p>I have studied my H through and through....and I can tell him plainly what the problem is and how things could be better....but he can't see it!!
He can see the exact same problems in his own brother and complains how bad it is, but can't see it in himself and change!! Imagine that!!
(His brother was smart to never marry)
He'd rather divorce than grow up!! Why would anyone settle for so much less than best??? I'll never understand that.<p>It looks like you and I have done all we can do, my dear Annavon!... Life can only get better for us, I figure!!... <p>You paint furniture?...cool!! Before meeting H, I had alot of creativity, and I look forward to finding that in myself again. I used to do alot of sewing, drawing, oil painting....oh, yes, I've got a canvas ready to go now!!...and I should call it "Dare to Dream!" [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I wish you well on your new life!!! It sounds like you are well on your way!! Be sure to report back here how things are going!! <p>You're in my thoughts and prayers!!
Big hug!!...((((Annavon))))

Renae,
Thanks for your email. I'm still on the fence about what I want to do. I still love him, but can't live in the world where he accepts no responsibility. I got home last night from a business trip and wanted to log onto the internet and found he had moved his entire office out of the house. I guess I can change the locks now, but I don't have access to the internet at home. I don't know where he moved it, but he's still using the garages.
I'm not mentally ready to file. I still want him to have a revelation that he really wasn't here for the girls or I.
HNHN is His Needs Her Needs, the book written by Dr. Harley. I listened to the tape and still don't know how Emotional Abuse can be dealt with in the context of the book.

So what do you guys think of this: My crisis intervention counselor recommended I get a cell phone before i move, so I did. I wasn't really keeping it a secret, but one of the kids told Craig, so he was upset.......mostly because I didn't talk to him first, altho he wants me to have one so he can keep tabs on me....now he calls 4 or 5 times a day to check on me. Anyway, I gave him the number, and today he leaves me a message......goes on and on about how he loves me, he is waiting for me to see that, we can make it work......etc. Of course he doesn't know I know about the Viagra....he is unaffectionate and uninterested at home......takes off whenever he pleases and won't talk to me......so what is this?

Hmmm... might it be a control tactic?<p>I just know when my H said he loved me, it was control, not love in the way I know real love is.

Newly, I have the book HNHN but haven't read it thru, but I have been to Harley's seminar so I think I've got the idea. You wonder how that works with a controller? Doesn't Harley address the issue of control in some letters/articles on this site? <p>Yes, it is frustrating when you know how marriage should be but your H doesn't get it. It would be ideal to get him to a Harley seminar....I sat there that day hurting so bad because H wasn't there hearing all the stuff that was perfect for him to hear!! I do believe if he hadn't been so arogant and refused to go, the seminar might have woke him up to what marriage is all about!! Harley is clear that control is a lovebuster and
the Policy of Joint Agreement must be implemented!<p>Sometimes I have written my H a letter, if I didn't think he'd listen to me talk. Could you do that, telling him exactly how you feel about him not having been there for you and the girls, workaholic, etc... Tell him what you need and what is normal for marriage, and see what his response is. That's what I'd do. There has to be honesty about needs.<p>I think you should not file until you are absolutely sure it is the next step. Make sure you've tried everything you can to make it work, so that if divorce occurs, you will not look back and regret you didn't try hard enough to reach your H's heart. I hate divorce, I want marriage...but since H filed, the peace I have now is that I did try everything.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>