My husband and I are both Christians and are wanting to add some spice to our sex life. We have gone to a couple places where there are many couples fooling around w/ their partners and eventually end up having sex. My husbnd thinks this is neat because he's a bit of a voyeur/exhibisionist. I don't mind it terribly, but I don't feel like it's something we need to be doing a lot from a Christian stand point. However, I also know that I need to be able to meet his needs for sexual fulfillment. We've gone to a place like this about 3 times in the last 1.5 years - so it's not become any sort of ritual at all. I am all for spicing up our sex life, but would like some input from others on what to do. Is there a way to lead/live a Christian life and still have a healthy/fun sex life??

Yes, but I don't think watching other couples is it!<BR>Personally, anything that vis mutually agreed upon and does not involve outside partners is OK with me, and within the Christian beliefs I hold. The human body has an incredible capacity for pleasure, and I beleive God intended for us to share that with our spouse. Toys, games, different styles of sex are all ways to spice things up...but I would draw the line at anything involving other people...<BR>

Yes, it is certainly possible to be a Christian and have a good sexual relationship. <P>How you do so is up to your husband and you, but being in the same place with other couples having sex is likely to lead to problems. This is especially true if you, the wife, are not enthusiastic about the idea. <P>Have you considered renting a video instead? Your husband gets what he likes, it is safer for you, everyone is happy and no one gets hurt. The hard part about this will be finding a video that is not offensive or boring. If you have access to a camcorder, perhaps you might consider making your own video. <P>Gee, us nice wholesome Christians making such suggestions to each other! We better be careful, or people will get the impression that marital sex is a wonderful gift from God!<P>

one source for toys, videos etc. which is not a raunchy, triple XXX site is <A HREF="http://www.goodvibes.com." TARGET=_blank>www.goodvibes.com.</A> Maybe you an your H might peruse it togther, and see if you see anything that appeals to you both...<BR>

Not to sound alarming...but I have a limited amount of experience in the area of including other people in sex, simply because my current partner and I are now in therapy for sexual addiction issues (his, not mine)...NOT a good idea...INCLUDING videos or magazines...IF you are struggling w/ the ideas at all. More to the point: This question may be less about sexual fulfillment than about the Policy of Joint Agreement. I'd say review that little gem with your husband and see what sort of compromise you can come up with that you BOTH are enthusiastic about. <P>Further...(again, not to be an alarmist)...if your husband absolutely MUST have the inclusion of other people in your sex life, and can not seem to be satisfied with other avenues of spicing things up that you both enjoy...I'd say there are some major issues you both need to look at.<P>UUUGGGGHHH...sorry to sound so paranoid...it's just that after trying to convince myself for nearly 27 years that I can accept pornography, if done in good taste, if not abused, etc. etc....I finally realized that as a woman, I cannot! <sheepish grin> The problem is, I hid my revulsion from myself and my partners for so long that when I finally admitted it, it was almost too late. I have developed what could almost be called an aversion to sex, and have fears that I may never enjoy it fully again. <P>Anyway, I know this sounds extreme, but I just want to spare other women out there the same misery if possible. Just keep that Policy of Joint Agreement in mind...and if you're really not enthusiastic about something (be honest w/ yourself), then DO something about it!<P>

It's not that my husband HAS to have others involved - we have never done anything w/ another couple (no touching, swapping...etc) - that is something I am TOTALLY not going to do - and he has never pushed that way. He just likes to spice up the sex every now and then by going to places where there are others fooling around, and where he and I can do the same w/ each other and sort of "show off." We've played a board game called Intimate Commands w/ another couple before - but again, never had any contact w/ the other couple - and this he enjoys too. (the game has cards that tell you do do a command w/ your partner for like 30 sec. or whatever he wants you to do.) And he did have a problem w/ looking at porn stuff on the net, so he wanted to get a Christian blocker called Hedgebuilders so that he would not be tempted to look at the stuff - and that filters out ALOT of trash - so that has been very helpful. I want to be able to meet his needs adn satisfy him, but at the same time I'm trying to figure out in my mind and belief system, what is okay and what isn't. Like am I being too prudish, etc...

Most men are vouyeristic to some extent. So I don't see this as a problem in and of itself. I have to agree though that going to a place (where is this place anyway are we talking Hedonism in Jamaica or something) where you are in the proximity of others couples engaged in sexual situations is dangerous. Crossing the line that you say you have drawn is just a few steps away. Yikes! Making your own video can be fun. Toys, lotions, new places can all spice things up. <p>[This message has been edited by Mudder (edited March 01, 2000).]

Isabella,<P>Hi again. I'm sorry if I came off like a spaz in my first post, it's just that I know how easy it is to dismiss your own misgivings about sex for the sake of a relationship. I don't think you should worry about being 'prudish'...obviously, you've gone along with many of your husband's desires, being willing to try things out. Hey, if you don't like something, you don't like it...and you usually know it. Whether you (or anyone else) think you have a good reason for it or not doesn't really matter. Your emotions, feelings, and reactions are valid because they are yours. Ok...I'll crawl down off my soapbox now. <P>Anyway, you are in my thoughts. Good Luck. And don't forget to review the Policy of Joint Agreement...I still think that concept is straight from the Marriage Fairies!

Isabella<BR>I'm glad this thread is still open because there are some things I'd like you to consider in solving this issue with your husband. It sounds as if you have some reservations about the ways your husband wants to spice up your sex life. Have you talked to him about those reservations?<BR>If you continue to overlook your own feelings about this you risk not only losing your love for your husband but also developing an aversion to sex. <BR> Isabella, I believe that God intented sex to be exclusive. If you want a healthy and fulfilling sex life for both you and your husband, it must be exclusive. Exclusive means not including anyone else in any way in your sex life. It seems to me that exclusivity would exclude video's and sex games with other people. Dr. Harley has a very convincing argument for exclusivity in his book Love Busters, chapter 11 (Resolving Conflicts Over Sex). If you don't have it, you can order it through MB<BR> You might also consider reading His Needs Her Needs or better yet Give and Take, The Secret to Marital Compatibility. The chapter on meeting the need for sexual fulfillment in both of these books would be very helpful in solving this problem.<BR> Isabella, please don't overlook this problem. Ask the Lord to show you what he thinks about this and what He wants you to do about it....that's the first place you want to go when you have any problem in your marriage. Okay? You might also want to give Dr. Harley a call during his radio broadcast to see what he has to say. <BR> <BR>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42

CJB80 - <P> I liked what you had to say. I ordered His Needs, Her Needs and we plan to read it together - so hopefully that will help. :-) I'm all for new ideas and trying new things - I just don't know that I am very comfortable w/ my husband's ideas. I agree w/ you that sex is and should remain an exclusive thing - but how would I go about explaining that to my husband? I want to be able to meet his sexual needs, but not do things I feel we shouldn't do. Part of the problem is that when I tell him I don't think we should do such things (even though we never have physical contact w/ other couples) - he says that he doesn't see anything wrong with it because what goes on is between him and I, and no one else, and that he leaves feeling even more in love w/ me because I'm fulfilling his fantasies and open to new things... Then in the back of my mind I think that if I'm not going to meet his sexual needs, who will? And I'm sure he won't go out and look for someone else - but I want to be able to keep him happy in a major area of most men - sex. And I do have a deffinate point at which I will not do things - I will not have ANY contact w/ another couple - and if he ever pushed me to, I would become incredibly upset w/ him, and he knows it and says he never will. A while back we saw the show "Summer of Sam" (a Horednously bad movie) - and in it there was a scence where the main actors are going to bascially what I'd call a sex club - everyone doing whatever w/ whomever... and my husband thought going to a place similar (but just keeping activity between the two of us!)- sounded like fun - and since then, that seems to be his focus of our sexual activity. We still do it in the private of our own home, but he tells me that he'd like to do that (sex) w/ others around... AUGH. Also - where in the Bible can I point him to look at for guidance on this issue??<BR>

Hi Isabella;<BR>Wow, you really brought up some good questions. My mind went blank when I read them. The only thing I could think of to tell you at this time is to try The Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). Give and Take modifys the POJA to read: "Only make love in a way that has the enthusiastic agreement of you and your spouse." But your first task would be to sell your husband on the POJA. <BR>I had a thought a minute ago....oh yea..It sounds like you still have some influence on your husband in this area which would give you some leverage in convincing him to follow the POJA if you combine it with prayer (in other words let the Lord do most of the convincing...He's better at it).<BR>One other thing is that you will need to be very careful to avoid any kind of disrespect or demands. My thought is that instead of going at it as being wrong (I tried that approach myself with my husband, it doesn't<BR>work) approach it as a difference in beliefs or opinions. There's an article in the Q&A section of MB titled "You Believe What?"<BR>which can be helpful in persuading him (Dr. Harley calls it Respectful Persuasion...the Lord called it friendly persuasion when He was encouraging me to use that strategy). I can't remember exactly where the article is but you can find it if you use the Search whatchamacallit on the home page. <BR>I can't think of anything in the bible that would be helpful at this time (if I do I'll get back with you okay?). Have you explained to him that you don't like it or that it offends you? If anything it would at least let him know where you stand. <BR>Let me pray about this for awhile Okay? If I can think of anything else that would be helpful I'll get back with you. One thing that would help a lot is listening to Dr. Harley's radio broadcast. He presents some very good reasons for following the POJA that you could use with your husband. Pray about calling Dr. Harley too, he's a whole lot better at this than I am.<BR>I've got you on my prayer list..so keep posting Okay? <P>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42

Isabella--<P>My H and I have also been to sex clubs 3 times in about that same amount of time. We had no contact with anyone else, and enjoyed the experiences. I feel very comfortable that my H will ask no more of me than I am willing to share, and our rules are well established. Rule # 1 is "no" MEANS "NO."<P>I'm not going to delve into the Scriptures for answers to your post...admittedly, not my forte. However, I am a Christian and have family morals. Your H sounds like he's willing to negotiate these sexual issues with you, and that's wonderful. Maybe he would be satisfied with the fantasies of group sex or others in close proximity, even if you never visit a club again. And, even if you both KNOW you may never go again, you don't necessarily have to say you won't. Might keep the fantasy a bit more exciting? <P>I've heard of that game you mentioned but never played it. The idea sounds fun, but I'm not sure I'd ever want to try it! H and I kid each other about playing "nekkid twister with oil" together/maybe we'll try that some day.<P>I really do believe that as long as a committed couple are in total agreement with their sexual practices and no one gets hurt, it's okay. That certainly incorporates the POJA.<p>[This message has been edited by Lucks (edited March 07, 2000).]

Isabella<BR>I've been thinking about you all afternoon. My husband and I prayed together for you earlier Both of us feel very strongly that you might be better off getting some expert advice from Dr. Harley. If you would feel uncomfortable talking to him on his radio broadcast, you might want to send an e-mail to him at bharley@marriagebuilders.com<BR> Our concern is that your husband is asking you to do something that he knows you feel uncomfortable with (I am assuming that he knows you don't like it). That in itself is going to create some real problems because<BR>he's not taking your feelings into account on this issue. Instead, he seems to be ignoring them. Please get in touch with Dr. Harley or set up an appointment with Steve Harley through the counseling center. <BR>Keep in touch. Okay?<P>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Psalm 42

Hello again. Today (Thursday) my H called and while we were talking about fuzz on the peach, he asked me if I had to choose between one of two places we have gone before (Place A. - where couples are going at it in the open and watching others, or - Place B. more of a party/social get together where couples can meet, dance, socialize and later go to a hotel room for whatever) which would I choose? He said he wasn't sure he wanted to go to either, just wanted to know. I told him that Place B grossed me out because of some of the Women-Women stuff that went on out on the dance floor. I told him I thought it was gross and perverted. So then a bit later, we were chatting on the computer and he said I never answered his question. I told him that if I had to choose, probably Place B, but that neither really appealed to me. He told me that what I said earlier was very judgemental. He didn't like that I used the word perverted. I told him I didn't direct it towards him, I directed it towards the behavior of the Women. He said it didn't matter. AUGH. <P>It's like I have two choices - Place A or Place B - pick the lesser of the two evils or H gets upset and says I'm judgemental. Well heck, don't I have a right to be? If I think what is going on is wrong, I should be able to call it how I see it, regardless of how it makes him feel. I didn't call him a pervert! - just the behavior that I saw. And I know that most men think W-W stuff is pretty neat - but I don't in the least. And furthermore - why does it seem that how I feel doesn't mean squat to my H because all he thinks about when it comes to "spicing up our sex life" is what he wants!? AUGH!! <P>And if he asks why I don't want to go to these places, I tell him that I don't think they are places we should go. I kind of feel that if you would not take your mother to a certain place, then you don't need to go. And as a Christian, I take Jesus with me! - and I really dont' want to go into such places w/ Him. (that may sound silly, but that's sort of the way I see it.) And when I tell him how I feel, he says that he feels like I'm judging him and his sexual ideas.<P>It's like if I could just hit him really hard over the head w/ something and knock those ideas out, things would be better. Maybe not as "adventurous", but at least I wouldn't feel like I'm sacrificing my moral beliefs to meet my H's sexual needs. Am I just way out of line? I know that Wives need to be able to meet their H's sexual needs, and I"m all for that - but I also don't think that when the W feels uncomfortable w/ what the H wants to do, that she should do it.<P>Any suggestions? <P>(sorry this is so long - I needed to vent in a BIG way!) <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Isabella (edited March 16, 2000).]

Isabella,<P>I am concerned. Have you and your husband begun work with "His Needs, Her Needs"? What about the policy of joint agreement? I know I can come off as an alarmist, it's just that reading your posts sets off my own alarm bells, having been through similar situations (even going through them now). It seems as though you are getting the short end of the stick. YOUR desires/needs/wants/morals/values seem to be put aside continually so that your H's desires/needs/wants/etc. can be met. Policy of Joint Agreement! I can't say it enough! Are you enthusiastic about his gambling? NO! Are you enthusiastic about his desire to go to clubs? NO! There has to be give and take. Yes, you can have fun. Yes, you can experiement and really enjoy sex. But it doesn't sound as though you enjoy what he's asking for. That's just plain unfair. What if you wanted to do something (sexual or not) that he felt uncomfortable with? Would you push and push until he did it? I have a feeling you wouldn't. Anyway...I'll stop preaching again. But I liked what you said about bringing Christ where ever you go. If you were truly making love, I'd say Christ would approve, and that uncomfortable knot in your gut wouldn't be there, eh?

Hello again. Well, the same day I wrote my previous reply, my H and I had a much needed battle. Sure, we don't like to fight, but I think this was one that needed to be fought. After being upset w/ eachother and not talking for most of the evening, at about 11 p.m. we finally started talking about all that had been said that day regarding the places he wanted to go and our sex life in general.<BR> As it turns out, he has been pretty dissatisfied w/ our sex life for quite some time but has never told me. He said that I make him feel uncomfortable because I can be so judgemental about things like situations on TV that I think are wrong, that when I say something about the tv show, he feels that if he had a desire to do something w/ me, that I would feel the same way towards him as I do the tv show. (He watches the MTV show "Undressed" (i can't stand it) and it's about teens/college students who basically seem to go from one partner to the next - when I've watched it w/ him, I've made comments about what they are doing is wrong and sick.) He says that it makes him feel like he can't talk to me about our sex life because of what I say about the tv shows. He said that he's not ever going to ask me to or even wants to ever physically include another couple in our sex life (like no swapping, or having her and I do stuff to eachother, etc.) But he said that he would like to feel that he can at least ask me to do something (w/ out the intent of me doing it) w/out me getting mad and judgemental about it. He said that he wouldn't ever expect me to do it, and wouldn't want me to do it, but he said that he should be able to at least feel comfortable enough that he could ask me to do something w/ another man. He knows it won't ever happen and would not want it to - just wants to be able to have open lines of communication and feel that there is nothing that we cannot talk about. <BR> He said that he gets the feeling from me that missionary style in bed a couple times a month is what I feel is plenty for our sex life. He said that seems to be what I'm willing to do, and nothing more. That I have a little box of what is acceptable and what isn't, and missionary style is the only thing that fits in my box. I told him that there isn't anything between the two of us that I wouldn't be willing to do, it's just that when he wants to have others around, I'm not as comfortable w/ it.<BR> We talked more about it and came to the conclusion that I'm on my end of things - totally unwilling to do what he wants and go where he wants because I'm not getting my needs met when it's just the two of us. I said that maybe if he and I were more adventurous in the things we did alone, then I would be more willing to go to one of the places he wants to go. But when it feels like it's either "missionary" or "other people places", there is no happy middle ground for either of us. <BR> I think I would be more willing to try things he wants to do if when it is just he and I, I felt like he was meeting my needs and vice versa. Otherwise, I feel like I'm the one who's always giving and what am I getting out of it? Nothing really. Yeah, I enjoy making love to my H, but when it's not meeting my needs because it feels more like a "Wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am" time than a slow, loving and enjoyable time, I'm not so willing to meet my H's needs. I know it sounds a tad selfish, but it's totally true. And it's not like he's pushing to go to these places several times a week or even several times a month. The last time we went was in December I think. And I do understand that if he invisions the only thing we'll do the rest of our lives is missionary and nothing else, that going to these other places even a few times a year is a nice night out.<BR> So that's about where we are at. He understands how I feel and we have not talked about going to one of these places again since last week. We both think we need to first work on improving things between he and I before we go to another club. Or else I'll feel resentful because he wants his needs met, but isn't willing to try to meet mine. So, at least now that we both know where the other is coming from, we'll see how it goes in the future.<BR> Thank you for all your posts - I'll keep you updated. God bless. <BR> <BR>