http://www.parentalalienation.org/PASdirectory.htm<p>Which type of alienator are you? Read the "three types of alienators" link.<p>I am closest to #1 with an occasional #2 out of sheer frustration because my XH (well, my XMIL moreso I believe) is a #3 and it scares me. Especially now, with this info.

Crap, this is when I wish I kept a file of all the interesting and informative things I have read and had it handy now.<p>The whole thing about PAS is scary, and it is to a point real.<p>I'm totally not trying to step on your toes my dearest princess, and I know how seeing things like this can be scary.<p>From memory let me tell you what is in my brain file on PAS. Please remember that I am an idiot so whatever I say you may choose to ignore.<p>Parental Alienation Syndrome is an invention of a man (%&***@ I can't remember his name) who is a fathers rights advocate. Now by saying fathers rights advocate I do not mean - when I tell sad dad and luc, who have been the primary caregivers to their children thru this turmoil, to seek joint custody and placement of their children. This man is the founder of an organization that uses tactics to intimidate and scare women into settlements that they do not deserve.<p>There are several takes on PAS, and the latest study that I read, and that was given to us at our state of Wisconsin mandated "How to be a divorced parent" class, was that it has not been proven to be anything more than usual turmoil families go thru in divorce.<p>Sure, there are women who bash their x husband and that is SO bad for the kids, but this PAS is used in cases where there has been domestic violence and in the long version description of PAS it even includes when a woman files a restraining order on a man who has beaten her if the man fathered her children. That ain't PAS, that is life or death.<p>Now I'm on kind of a mission here, I do not want you feeling like you are being a bad parent or doing anything scary. That is what they made this shi* up for. <p>I am now going on an internet crusade to find you some links that will fully explain what I have terribly tried to describe here.<p>Love,
Elizabeth

This is a link to a site mostly devoted to helping mothers fight against PAS.<p>If you read one link read this from the California newspaper Pasadena Star News. A quote from this article...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Although PAS has been discredited, there is little sign that litigators will stop using it to obtain custody for their clients, or that judges will stop paying attention to it. <p>"PAS is a wonderful litigating tool. It gives the court a scientific-sounding solution ... but it's pure B.S.," Devers said. <p> <hr></blockquote><p>An article discussing the case FRYE v. GARDNER.<p>From Women's E-News, re:Women's Credibility Doubted in Many Family Courts.<p>Elizabeth
MORE TO COME

The @ssholes name is Richard Gardener.<p>"The Parental Alienation Syndrome - a mythical mental illness 'discovered' by Richard Gardner"<p> The "Father's Right's" Mo...fter a Restraining Order has been Issued<p>
This is the creep's web site.<p>This guy is such a creep I can't even look for stuff anymore.<p>Princess - YOU ARE A WONDERFUL MOTHER. You have done nothing that is not ordinary. You are a victim of this creep. I love you, your kids love you, and you are doing your best to do your best. Do not let this bully allow you to feel bad for even one second.<p>SEETHING.<p>Man, I haven't gotten this worked up in a while.<p>I need a beer.<p>Hey kids, your dad's a [censored].<p>Elizabeth

Just making sure you people read this!

Their dad IS a [censored] (I have more choice names for him in private) but I go out of my way to not berate him in front of the kids.<p>He's at it again, though. Check out my latest thread on EN forum (re: punching bag) ...<p>This guy is something else.<p>Vacation is two days away ... peace ... for a week ... aaahhhhh

Hey Thanks for posting this Buttercup!<p>I found it really interesting -- good things for both parents to avoid!<p>In fact I sent it to my STBX, along with a note saying "gosh I see how destructive this could be, and I am really committed to not participating in this kind of behaviour!"<p>Which he of course took as an accusation.... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ....sigh....my intentions were good.

I won't send my XH the part about #3 specifically because it will let him know that he CAN succeed in turning the kids against me as an obsessed alienator. He and his mommy are well on their way ...<p>I should send them the #1 and #2 things though, but it wouldn't matter ... he doesn't believe me that I DON'T tell the kids bad things about him ... he's a completely paranoid irrational person. The kind that makes "extremists" look bad. :-/

OK, you guys are reading, but are you getting it? Don't let this creep with a made up disease make you feel bad. PAS has been proven to not be REAL. <p>Can you tell I am passionate about this one?<p>Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I understand about "PAS" the syndrome, the disorder, not being a real medical condition, yes ... but I do feel it is emotionally damaging to the children when one parent/grandparent is brainwashing them with misinformation about the other parent to the extent that they are angry and disobedient ... I've heard from so many people who had no relationship with their bio father simply because of things their mother said about him ... to find out later in life that it was false, and sometimes too late to get to know their father ... except in my case it is the non-custodial parent trying to get the kids prepped to tell the judge they want to live with daddy, and gathering this "evidence" against me ... I'm out of ideas on how to cope.<p>I feel that parental alienation exists. I don't agree with PAS as a medical disorder ... I do think that PA could cause emotional disorders, though, such as depression or anxiety, do you see what I'm saying? :-/

Hi;
I know what you mean about brainwashing,and ex's bashing the other parent.I know of two situations going on right now like this.
The GF's sister is brainwashed to the point where she is weak.This guy took her out of school at the age of 15 and has been controling her with threats and voilence for 14 years(he is 10 years older than she is). The GF and her sister take the children to church every sunday but the weekends that he gets them he takes them to a place where they teach the boys to hate god.
The boys have no self control are abusive not only to their mother but to the GF's kids as well.
Just the other day she happen to walk by her 6 year old's bedroom door just in time to see one of her sister's boys jumping out the second story window with the young girl ready to follow him.
Her sister acted like there was nothing wrong and basically more or less acted like there was no control there. If someone saw this or if he had broken his neck there would have been alot of explaining to do to the cops and children's aid.
The man has been very sucessful at parent bashing tell his kids their mother is sleeping around all the time,yeah right like we live on Vulcan.As for The GF's ex I think the worst he is doing is pumping the kids for info and using other people to do his spying ,and if I heard the GF right is trying to get her sister in bed. These guys are real winners aren't they
231 [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Oh yes, this is real, and i have first hand evidence and admittance of it from X.<p>I can take the kids on a vacation, have a great time, the kids and I understand each other, and then a month later, they hate me. . . <p>well, turns out that X is undermining me and brainwashing them with her version of life, which with her BPD, is a controlling, responsbility avoiding view. . . .<p>although unless cornered with logic, she manipulates reality viewing to be all controlling. . . the illusion of power over her family as if her view of life is the only view, and it is a very narrow view all based on looking at everyone as children. . . me included. . . <p>this keeps her successful adult image alive as omnipotent. . . i know this for a fact in that anytime she tried to tell me about how i should act and how she is dealing with a situation between us, she always referenced the sitation as if i am a child, actually stating me as a child U10. Finally I told her that her view doesn't apply as I am not a child, but a fully functioning independent adult. . . . At this point, her argument stopped and she had no more abiltiy to discuss this with me. . .<p>there is a chapter about this very damaging scenario in "If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him", chapter 5, "Tale of a power trip", pages 77-89 which outlines the emotional damage that occurs. . . and the result is an illusionary power trip by the child, siding with the manipulative parent against the other parent. . . and the self image of the child collapses sometime in adult hood when the child realizes he has been duped by the manipulative parent. . . .<p>its a very interesting and worthwhile read. . ..<p>wiftty

Ok, I just wanted to make sure that everyone understood that this can be used in not such a nice way.<p>And yes, I totally understand that it is real.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The whole thing about PAS is scary, and it is to a point real. <hr></blockquote><p>My mom should be given a PhD in Parental Alienation. She still tries to undermine my sisters and my relationship with my father. You would figure that since the divorce was over 20 years ago that she would have given that up by now. <p>I am totally not saying that it is in any way acceptable for a parent to tell a child anything that would jeopardize the relationship with the other parent. That is bad news, unfair, and just plain mean. <p>I do my best to not discuss the divorce or our relationship in front of the kids, I'm especially careful what I say when I am in a 'mood' and I always tuck them in with Daddy and I love you very much. We pray for Daddy and his family at dinner and when we remember to do goodnight prayers.<p>It is not a secret though to our older son that Daddy did some things that weren't nice. He witnessed some of the stuff, so it would be silly to deny it. I do say that Daddy is going to try and never lie again, and that sometimes it is hard to understand why adults do things sometimes.<p>When it comes to Amanda witnessing physical violence we say that Daddy was sick, and is trying very hard to get better and will never hurt Mommy again.<p>Sorry, tons of probably unnecessary info here, but I just want everyone to understand that there is a difference between parental alienation, and having parental alienation used against someone in a divorce case.<p>Elizabeth

It is highly questionable whether brainwashing even exists:<p>mind control, brainwashing<p>much less whether it is possible for a parent to "brainwash" a child.<p>PAS is often an accusation bandied about by parents who have something to hide from their children. <p>My H can say whatever he pleases about me. I may not like what he says, but I will absolutely defend his right to say it. If it is not favorable, either it is not true, in which case I could present counter-evidence, or it is, in which case I would not have a leg to stand on. If it is merely an opinion, then he certainly has a right to express it.

Nellie,<p>This is one area where I will totally disagree with you.<p>Unless you've seen this VERY REAL syndrome(PAS) in action, you have no idea the damage it causes.<p>I understand that like many other things it can be *used* incorrectly, but let me give you an example where it certainly is true.<p>A mother gets full physical custody of a 5 year old and the father gets Every Other Weekend (EOW) visitation. The father pays the required child support. The mother wants more money, but can't get it, and she wants the father to take the child more often. He can't, due to a work schedule conflict. The mother begins to badmouth the father on a daily, if not more often, basis. Further, when the father calls to speak to the child nightly, the mother says the child will not speak to him. In the meantime, she tells the child that daddy isn't calling. The child is hurting, thinks daddy doesn't care, and clings to mommy (of course). THIS IS PAS in it's simplest form. <p>It's very real. And there are HORROR stories.<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

Sheryl,<p>A caring father would ask the child why he does not want to speak to him, and when the child claims the father has not called, the father tells the child that he is, in fact, calling every night - and the child demands an explanation from the mother. If the child can not tell time, the father tells the child that he will call right when Barney ends. The child waits by the phone, and the mother would have to be really sneaky to somehow intercept the phone call. Many 5 year olds are capable of making a phone call - why couldn't the father give the child his phone number - get an 800 number if necessary. If the mother is saying something that is not true, there is NOTHING stopping the father from telling the child his side of the story, if he really wants a relationship with his child - then again, if he doesn't care, it is easy to make wild accusations against the mother and use her as a scapegoat.<p>As an aside - assuming that this story is not merely hypothetical, why doesn't the father do whatever is necessary so that the child can visit as much as the mother allows? I don't buy "can't." It is inconceivable to me that a parent would not want his or her child far, far more than EOW. And why, exactly, does the wife want the father to have the child more often - her work schedule conflicts? Does anyone care about the work schedule conflicts of the custodial parent? Oftentimes, the NCP gets to see his child whenever he wants, but only when it is convenient for him. That is NOT parenting. <p>And why on earth would the mother try to "alienate" the child if she wants him to spend more time with his father? One would think that would backfire, and the child would refuse to visit.

Actually Nellie, the story was totally hypothetical. <p>I belong to another site, a member-only site, for second wives. There is a section on PAS, and I've read horror stories. I made up a kind of conglomeration (sp?) of several situatons.<p>You know Nellie, you bring up some interesting points, and of course they make *sense*... the trouble is, so many times PAS makes no sense at all. <p>I said, in the other post, that it was the most simplistic of examples. The most severe, of course, deal with parents who take children out of the state or country, and/or tell the children the other parent has died. That would be the MOST SEVERE case scenerio. It's certainly not "common" but it does happen occasionally.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

Sheryl,<p>I have looked at a couple of second wives message boards, and was horrified at the prevalence of hatred and blame directed at the first wife - one would expect that from OW's, but I saw it even among second wives who at least claimed not to be. If you believed what was on some of those sites, you would think that the majority of first wives were psychotic, which I somehow doubt is the case. I would take anything said by an OW with a grain of salt, obviously.<p>I think you and I would agree that lying to your child is harmful. Obviously parental kidnapping is also harmful. On one of the links Elizabeth gave, there was actually the claim that telling your child that their other parent was violent or an alcoholic was "PAS." If the other parent is, in fact, violent or alcoholic, hiding that information from your children could easily amount to child endangerment. <p>It seems to me that the inventor of that syndrome was just out to make a name for himself, and to blame the custodial parent for any negative feelings and resentment the child may have about the NCP, who, as we know, in many cases, has little to do with the children after becoming involved with the OP. Lying to your kids is bad, whether you are lying to convince them that the other parent cares less than he does or more than he does, or whether the parent is lying about something completely unrelated, like the child having been adopted. It is the lying that is harmful - but no one has gotten rich promoting PLS.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

Nellie,<p>it does exists, it's due ot people who have control issues. . . in your state mandated course you should have seen the movie on it, it does exist as evidenced in the state divorce course.<p>second, there are people who have control issues, and try to beat the oediple complex. . . yet in the end, the child is emotionally damaged. . .<p>you can choose to believe what you want, and as i read your posts, you choose many times not to view reality as such, but to choose to interpret reality as you would like reality to be. . . however, reality is far more diverse and cruel in divorce situations than society documents.<p>Let me ask you: why would a mother leave a sick child at home alone instead of allowing the willing father to care for the kid while the mother works?<p>that's what happens all the time over here, and X claims i am meddling in her life, yet the child is home alone for 6 hours, sick, and yet X refuses to let me care for him/her. . . . its a mind game for control, and that control is more important for the person than whether the children grows up healthy or not. . . <p>and BTW, my X has her BA in childhood development, yet doesn't use any of the knowledge learned from it. . . in fact she treats everyone as if they are still in childhood development. . .
including me, which signifies to me a mental perspective defect. . . .<p>i have a coworker, lawyer, well educated, who has a sisterinlaw who is just like that to her, and the kids involved are hers and my coworker. . . each is married with kids. . . yet when my coworker's SIL talks with her, she just puts down my coworkers kids to her face, just to make herself feel good. . . . the things that this SIL has said are outrageously obvious putdowns of my coworkers kids success. . . Now if this person was so blatant in a normal situation, how do you think she would react in a divorce? i would bet openly, pretty bad, in fact, very bad. . . <p>of course that is assumption, but the best determinate of future behavior is past behavior. . .<p>so is it real, yes, i have seen it, and am getting the brunt of it from the kids. . . last night, i picked them up after not haveing seen them for a week, and were they ever nasty to me when i saw them, of course, mom was there, whispering to them. To her and them, its a loyalty game, loyalty to the victim, as she portrays herself. . . there is lots of mileage in trying to gain sympathy, and X has told me that's what she is out for. . .<p>it takes me about the length of the drive to let them know i won't take their bad moods, and i out logic them to the point that finely, once they give up that i am not who their mom wants them to think, then i am back to a loving dad in their eyes. yet, when i ask them on the phone or when i pick them up, how was school and what did you do today, they start to get ugly with me, so they can hate me like their mom does. . . but it doesn't get very far. . .

Nellie,<p>I'm not even gonna go into "First Wife" territory. Remember, I am also a first wife. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am talking about a MOTHER who alienates her children from their father, for WHATEVER reason - although yes, it does seem that his remarriage sparks it on more than one occasion. <p>Let me make it clear that it has NOT happened to me, or by me. <p>However, I have seen the affects on others I know. <p>That said, yes, I completely agree that if the TRUTH is stated, that is NOT PAS in my mind. If daddy is a drunk, or a felon, I'm all for telling the truth, age appropriately, of course. <p>But it's those times, as wiftty states, when Mother (or Father) uses the "honesty" (or dishonesty, for that matter) as a tool to measure LOYALTY to the (usually)custodial parent. <p>Nellie, you are very firm in your beliefs - all of them. You never waver. I respect that. But you must realize that there are varying shades of grey out there that don't fit into your situation. Just because YOU are honest with your children and don't alienate them from their father, does not mean that all mothers do. I know I'm preaching to the choir here.