Wifty,<p>No, actually there was no movie about PAS in the divorce course we had to take. There was only a brief movie about how unhappy the children of divorce are.<p>Each of us interprets "reality" differently. I can not speak to why your children's mother does not want you to care for them when they are sick, but I do know that you have mentioned that the house is within sight of where she works, a fact which when not mentioned certainly makes it look as if "leaving them alone" is a somewhat different issue than it is. <p>I know that you and I don't agree on much of anything, and I see a lot of apparent attempts to control on your part in your posts, not to mention your constant blaming of your wife for everything you do not like about your children's behavior. One has to wonder if some of your children's behavior toward you is in response to the obvious disdain with which you regard your wife, a disdain which I doubt that you could hide from your kids even if you wanted to. I know enough about the school where your wife works to doubt that they hire stupid people, as you have made out your wife to be, to teach advanced math courses. It seems to me from your posts that if anyone in your relationship were likely to be trying to convince the children that the other parent was a loser, it would be you, not her. <p>Sheryl,<p>You are correct that I am firm in my beliefs - some would say stubborn - but I am equally firm in the belief that being firm in one's beliefs is a good thing. I think it is all too common to see shades of grey where there aren't any. One has to be wary of, as my old Unitarian minister said, being so open-minded that your brains fall out. <p>I am sure that it is possible that some parents try to alienate their kids from the other parent - but I don't think that is possible for alienation to happen if the other parent stays involved with the kids and TALKS to them. In the vast majority of cases, it is a matter of the parent who left for the OP having a temper tantrum because their kids are mad at them, and it is easier to blame the BS than it is to accept the fact that they screwed up their relationship with the kids themselves by their actions.<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

Sad thing is...fathers also try to alientate children from their mothers..so it's not just something women do..it's both sexes..but it seems that because more women get physical custody that women are the only one's who do this..<p>Like my ex..doesn't have physical custody...nor is he seeing anyone to my knowledge..does the same thing..when he has the kids for a week..or even just a weekend..

Nellie,<p>unfortunately for my kids, i think they have only heard one side of the divorce, and its not mine, because in the speech that i gave the family before i left, i told them i would explain to them when they are older why this is happening, because they were too young to understand. . .<p>and i have NOT said anything to kids about X, except once, when i started to say that she should take responsibility for kids, and i stopped there. Gut i haven't said anything negative, which may be confusing them since i apparently left the house, and haven's said anything about why. . . so maybe my not putting her down is counter productive?<p>however, i will tell the kids when they are ready to understand it, and in a different setting, away from the homes, probably on a vacation.<p>I see where X went after the attention by someone who was recently divorced, hurting and was needy, and she eats up that situation, and he was considered a "god" in her new world, so she went for him. . . . and lost. . . and she confided all situation with the OM with the 8 yo as her confidant. . . not smart in my book. . . <p>however, with her control lessened, because i have them, she does very weird, abnormal, i don't see anyother parents doing these acts in public, demonstrations of "her love" for the kids. . .<p>well, she is trying to make the kids have a great childhood by absolving them of all their responsibilities, to them, and with me, she puts all the respnsibilities on the children. . . in facxt, when i had to discuss what WE were doing with the kids as far as pickup and the such, she couldn't make a decision, the only answer she had was "whatever the 12 you wants." Well, this was parent to parent talk and schedules. . . .<p>so she conveniently "forgets" about having them ready. In fact, I told her once that the kids need to be ready to go when i get there, and i give them a time. . . yet, when i get there 5-10 minutes after i said i would be there, no one is ready, i have to wait around, X makes the pickup drop off time a romantic interlude with the kids, and then she and the kids blame me FOR THEIR NOT BEING READY. . . . well that is not self responsibility making, and it is also just putting up roadblocks for my time. . . . <p>so, i don't quite think you have it right with your assumptions, and i don't quite think you have a very eclectic view of situations. . . . and you can disagree all you want, but i also know of divorcees who have had problems like this. . . . and the X's are very disordered and manipulative. . . .<p>wiftty

Wiftty,<p>You are d** right they must be confused - and to say nothing in explanation to them because they "are not old enough to understand" shows a complete lack of respect for your children. Even preschoolers deserve an explanation given at their level, and your kids are considerably older than that. <p>You have continually called your wife stupid, abnormal, and a great variety of other "diagnoses" on this board - and if you think your kids are not aware of what you think of her, you should probably think again. So far the vast majority of your complaints have had no obvious basis as far as I can see - so you have to wait a few minutes for your kids - what is the big deal? Maybe your wife is reacting to what she sees as your attempt to control her by ordering her to have the kids ready upon your arrival. Your kids are old enough to tell time - why is it her responsibility to have them ready anyway? Where you come up with descriptions like "abnormal" for hugging or kissing the kids in public I can't imagine - who the H*** cares if no one else does whatever it is she does - if it is ok with the kids that is all that matters. You are not the God of Propriety.

Nellie,<p>who is responsible? both are, it is the kid's responsibility, and the parent's to see that the kid learns or is taught responsibility, not avoiding responsibility. . ultimately, if she is to TEACH responsbility, she will have them prepared, and not support them in NOT being ready. . . . and it is an agreement, not a demand. X will ask me when will i arrive, and i tell her politely, and ask her to have the kids ready at that time. . . to have them not ready does not teach responsibility, and then to criticize me for being late as their excuse is blaming others and self responsibility avoidance. . . so you agree this is what should be taught? <p>i can wait, but then why am i to be criticized by her when i am late, not prepared etc. you see, there is a lack of equality, there is only a one way, selfish way with X. . . and she uses the "i forgot" excuse quite a bit. . . but I can never use the excuse, or she goes ballistic. . . so you were saying about equality? that there should be or should not be? today, she told me about how she lied to her athletic director to get some field space to practice? should i point this out to the kids as the way to get what you want? or should i straighten her out right then? or what should i do? what do you think i did do?<p>and the kissing at athletic contests, i have yet to see ANY OTHER parent sit with their daughter in their lap, facing them, 9 and 10 yo range, lip kissing while the game is going on to the oblivion of the game for 5 minutes at a time while the son is playing . . . we are at the game to support the son, and to learn to support other by setting an example.<p>is it not a little disrespectful to ignore son playing in the game and to be making out on the bench with her daughter? ugh! i have yet to see one other parent like that, and i have been to hundreds of games, for twenty years, way before we had kids almost every Wednesday and Saturday . . . .<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> You have continually called your wife stupid, abnormal, and a great variety of other "diagnoses" on this board - and if you think your kids are not aware of what you think of her, you should probably think again. <hr></blockquote><p>so how would they know that i think that of her if they don't read this board, and i don't say anything like that in front of them? basically I don't say anything about her, they know i get irriated at her, but they don't know that i hate her. even the shrink last year asked the kids how did the fake family christmas go, and the kids told him better than they expected. . . .<p>what you don't know is that i can ignore people who irriate me very well. . . and you know, when was the last time you went to help your spouse move, which she agreed to do, and then spent 10 minutes in bed with daughter, kissing and making out . . . there is a time and a place for every activity, and i have an opinion on what i think is appropriate and what i think is not. . . <p>and with all the reading i have done, there is alot of inappropriate behavior, such that when i take daughter out to a dinner with my family, instead of playing with her cousins and interacting, she tries to make out with me. . . that is not the time and place, but that is what she has learned from X, and i have to gently tell her that this is not the time and the place. . . . despite what you may think. . . . <p>now, here is a woman that kicked out her H, initiated the divorce, and then tells the kids that she wishes she could come to my family's christmas party. . . HELLO? so how does that straighten out the kids? me thinks it confuses them and she does whatever it takes to look like a victim, and the good guy. . . . now i over heard 10 yo daughter telling cousins that. . . do i confuse the kids? maybe by not trash talking the X, and i have told them once, why, but they did not understand and the shrink at the state course said, just to say that dad doesn't love mom like that anymore, to be direct, but no more, and answer their questions. . . which i will . . .<p>so yes, this place is used to allow my opinions to come forth, however, this is the only place, and they don't read the postings, because i monitor what they read on the web. . . I have discussed her behavior with my mom, who has worked in psych wards before, and she agrees with me, plus she has identified other disordered people way before others have caught on . . .<p>so why is it that 13 yo son asks me to help him with his studying for SSATs, and when i come over, he starts throwing temper tantrums, trash talking the requirements that he wants to succeed in. . .? i constantly refused to listen to sour grapes, trash talking to make oneself feel better, i don't display it to them, and i won't tolerate it from them. . . i see the beginning of emotional abuse, as stated in the web page associated with the link i posted. . . and they did not learn it from me, but i see and hear X putting down the kids successes, where i step and disagree with her . . .<p>so nellie, you can make your assumptions fit your point of view, however, i challenge you to find me trash talking the X in front of the kids. . .
or confusing them by suggesting anything other than i can't live there any more. . . <p>tag, you're it

Hi Y'all! I saw this and just had to post my 2 cents worth. Since my divorce, I haven't seen our 2 boys at all. EW has totally brainwashed them to believe:
-What a rotten father I've been
-I don't care if they're all dead
-I killed their beloved dog and cat
-I was going to marry a schtizo b**** who was going to kill them
-I hate all of them
-I am a liar and need to stop lying so much (but everything their Mother tells them is gospel truth)
-I turned my back totally on them
-I'm extremely selfish
-I "dis-respect" them... and on and on and on... Well, I just left it in the hands of the Lord, I've written a few emails and snail mail letters to my kids - end result: they have been brainwashed worse than the former KGB or North Koreans ever could have done during the Cold War. My kids have been raised very weak-minded and to believe every single thing their mother tells them, then when faced with the plain truth backed up by facts, chose to IGNORE what I said and repeated what they have believed all along. "You can't reason with a closed mind" and that's just the way it is. Both my kids sent me a nasty letter demanding I sign their Adoption Papers, so I did. I have never had the first thing bad to say about my EW to them, in the few times I did email them or write to them. And yes, I agree that the guy who has that website about "stalking, harassing the ex, etc." is brainwashed his own self. I certainly don't think he's a Christian - and we're supposed to speak the truth in love, even if it hurts. Giving your ex a hard time fighting over custody, finances, possessions, etc. is NOT the answer. I simply walked away after Marriage Counseling failed and I was blamed for every single thing that went wrong, by both my (then) wife AND our Marriage Counselor. I let my ex and kids have every single thing they wanted and did not fight them over anything. They thought they were doing me a favour by letting me take a few video tapes, my clothes, a nightstand, one blanket, and my bicycle. Then they got mad and wanted all the tapes back. To make a long story short, material possessions meant more to all of them than anything else.
So, yes, there is a LOT of bitterness, hatred, anger, lying, revenge, and theft out there, but I just couldn't see a Christ-centered child of God behaving this way. Sad, but true.
Since I began Divorce Recovery on my own, God has spoken to me a number of times, replaced everything I lost, but the best thing of all is: He gave me a new Wife who is sweet and kind beyond my dreams! She is the exact opposite of what my EW was... So, yes, dreams do come true and God does hear our cry when we're in the pit of despair and misery from divorce fallout.
Please keep looking up - God loves us - even if our ex's don't!
Peace, Harold

I do not agree that it is appropriate to base one's decisions on what you "learned" in the "parenting" course that the state mandated. If I were to do that, I would have "learned" that the sleeper effect means that a few years down the road the children may "have a few questions," (her exact words) rather than the real meaning - that a fairly sizable percentage of kids of divorce have serious psychological problems that often do not become evident until years later, often as they enter adolescence or early adulthood. <p>I think anyone who has every gone to marriage counseling knows that not all marriage counselors are good; nor are all psychiatrists, lawyers, investment bankers, or any other kind of professional. For every piece of "expert" advice you mention, I could find conflicting advice. <p>I have no idea whether your wife treats your children appropriately or not, although I suspect that her side of the story might be different. What I have found really annoying is that you have NEVER had anything positive to say about her - why on earth did you marry her in the first place, then? Even though my H had treated me badly, I can still think of a number of positive things to say about him - and I do. <p>I really doubt that you can hide how you feel about your wife from your kids, whether you say anything or not. It would not surprise me if your kids thought you left their mother because you thought she was stupid, and if that is the case, no wonder they feel resentful. <p>And of course anyone who has to take the SSAT's (or the SAT's or the GRE's or the LSAT's or whatever) would complain about them. Personally I would agree that subjecting kids of that age to ability testing that permanently tracks them into or out of opportunities is harmful - so I can see the child's point, but even if that were not an issue, everybody always complains about the unfairness of tests. I don't think it is worth getting upset about.<p>It occurred to me that perhaps your wife purposely does things that she knows annoy you just to get your goat. It's got to be tempting, when you are dealing with someone who is capable of thinking of his interactions with you in terms of "straightening you out" to want to p*** him off. <p>You and I are probably never going to agree on anything, but it doesn't really matter since, thank goodness, we don't ever have to have anything to do with each other.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> And of course anyone who has to take the SSAT's (or the SAT's or the GRE's or the LSAT's or whatever) would complain about them. Personally I would agree that subjecting kids of that age to ability testing that permanently tracks them into or out of opportunities is harmful - so I can see the child's point, but even if that were not an issue, everybody always complains about the unfairness of tests. I don't think it is worth getting upset about. <hr></blockquote><p>you can see the child's point, however, you fail to understand the reality of life. . . <p>test are part of life, will always be, there are unwritten, formal tests, such as interviews for jobs. . . there are unwritten, informal tests, such as cooperation and sincerity every day. . .
decisions have to be made and tests are part of measuring a larger pool of applications fopr a limited number of positions. . . . <p>to throw temper tantrums at age 13 against the realities of life, means that parenting has given the child the wrong messages. . . and if the wrong messages are given, then the child has less of a chance to suceed in a happier, healthier life. . . . <p>simple as that. . . . i can parent towards success, towards happiness, because i have been through alot of it, failures, new attempts at new directions, developing proper persectives on decision making, yet i made a mistake, i realized it before the wedding, but did not have the knowledge or the self confidence to act on it. I generalized it away, just like you try to in your responses. I lacked the knowledge of emotional abuse, i lacked the knowledge of what manipulation was, but i was confused. . . and in confusion, i generally don't want to make rash decisions. . . <p>there was another time i was passively aggressively manipulated, and i thought about divorce before kids, but someone else talked me out of it because i was upset. . . however, if i knew what i know today, i wouldn't even date the person. . . and i learned this from sitting with a group of guys who were either just getting married or still dating, and after listening to their analysis of women, i realized i did not have any background in which to have made a good decision for myself at age 27, when i did get married. . . i married out of ignorance and misbeliefs. . . and i told my best man that i shouldn't be getting married, but he just laughed and said, pre marriage jitters. . . . well, alot changed after i got married, and only for the worse. . . very slowly, but the wanting to control and isolate, the subtle jabs, and the pure misinformation and the male/man bashing was weird, and since all her best friends were gay, i was trying the plan A route to the max, always did, but it never got me any closer. . . . <p>so yes, nellie, i will take the responsibility for making a big mistake, and i dont' really like her after having her problems projected onto me. . . as if i am the problem by being having decent standards and upholding them not just when they are convenient for me. . . . for taking parenting as a serious job, not just a popularity contest. . . . but to teach worthwhile life lessons on how to survive and how not to get derailed. . . .<p>there areother posters here who hate who their Xs, turned into, RWD comes to mind, and i agree with him becuase i have very similar issues with my X as he does. . . and i dislike and don't associate with people who just yell sour grapes, and don't do much to help themselves, but just look for sympathy to maintain their position in life. . .<p>i thnk i read a tag line here that was very true, in think its sportguy, who says, somehting like sympathy is nice, but doesn't solve the basic underlying problems. . . . or somehting like that. . . well, i try to solve problems, which is a basic life skill, which my parents taught me well. . . . and when you are thwarted at different attempts to teach my kids the same skills, which is highlighted in the book, the road less travelled, then i get frustrated at selfish, controlling, sour grapes people . . . <p>who resist progress and change, because it threatenes their fixed view of life. . .<p>so take it or leave it, but i don't like my X, nor do i like what she is doing with the kids, and it is a constant battle, and given the percentage of time i have, and her resistance to my having more, it is a very difficult battle. . . <p>good luck
wiftty

As a mother of six, four of them between 12 and 21, be forewarned that it will get worse before it gets better. If you are lucky, as I was (so far anyway), your kids will get through adolescence without getting into trouble with drinking or drugs - if all you have to suffer through is the occasional outburst from your teenager, you should count your lucky stars. <p>I don't like my H's new personality one bit - but that does not negate the fact that he was a good man, and it does not negate the fact that he was, and is, intelligent and talented. To me, calling your wife unintelligent sounds like sour grapes...

nellie,<p>i was inlove with my wife, and she WAS a good person, but that changed, and i don't live in the past, i live in today. . . . i don't like her new personality one bit. . . <p>yeah, i hate her for taking away my time with the kids through the court system, after WE agreed that she wanted mediation, and i took her through mediation, and i had a good relationship with the kids, until she had a lawyer that wouldn't support our agreement, and she went for everything she could get. . . minimum time for me, maximum $ from me. . . . and stupid, nice, fair me, i was too nice because i still had hope and loved her. . . .<p>i will never forgive her for that, and the only reason she gave was, in the best interest of the children and the judge wouldn't give it, so why should i. . . with nothing to back it up. . . .<p>never again. . . . but i don't bash her in front of the kids. . not once. . . <p>and after explaining it to someone else, the other person, very smart, commented that this is just a game with her. . . and yep, it is a game, a control game. . . an egotistical, emotional control game. . . . designed to perpetuate the past and to not upset the feelings of loss of control that ultimately happens as kids grow up. . .<p>wiftty