Ok, So I've seen some people talking about bpd. Went to the book store, not looking for that, but staring out at me was a book on bpd - border line personality. <p>I didn't buy it - yet. I did leaf through it, and what a shock. It was as if the met my wife when they wrote the book. Many of the things I've said about her were in there - walking on egg shells - I told her that once, what a fight that was - major mood changes in min. then wondering why you are still mad - and on and on. The scarry thing is I always used to think she was like my mother, and she also fits right the little bit I read. <p>So what's the real deal with this? What do I do, is there any curing this? or just learning to deal with it?<p>The biggest thing with her is mood swings, she can be all over me telling me how much she needs me and loves me 1 min, then pissed because I didn't clean up the dishes as fast as she wanted. If I try to do anything on my own, she starts with how much she misses me etc, and if that doesn't work, gets pissy. I used to think it was a form of manipulation and control (ok, I guess it still is but is it related to this? I see a huge effect of this on my son. I used to think she was just a perfectionist - she'd be on him to clean his room, it'd look ok to me, not house and garden, but not bad for a teenaged boys room. She'd still say it wasn't good enough, often having him in there for hours till it was as clean as if she did it. So, am I on to something here with the BPD? Or am I just cramming something in a category to make it fit?

No, but I'm dealing with something very close....NPD. I've read the book you're referring to because it has some very good thoughts on detaching, etc. This has been very hard. We just started with a new MC who specializes in NPD, so the jury's still out on what will happen, but I am at the end of my rope. I would suggest you get the book. I'm on here at some point almost everyday and understand pretty well what you're going through if you need/want support.

what the hell is npd? what is the differance?

A therapist or MC could help you determine if this is definitely your wife's problem. In my case, I just went to the therapist and detailed what had been transpiring over the course of our relationship, and she told me "I think this is what you're dealing with". I went to MC for second opinion basically, and he didn't come right out and say it, but described someone with NPD perfectly. I don't think this is something that can be "cured" because it is part of their psychological makeup, but I've been told that a MC that specializes in the disorder can help the other spouse "manage" the siuation or do "damage control". Also, the MC can explain to the person with the disorder in terms that person can understand, the what and why that they just don't seem to "get" about how their actions impact the relationship. In addition, the MC can explain to the non-PD spouse how the PD spouse thinks and why certain things that the non-pd spouse would not consider triggers are in fact triggers to the PD spouse. There is also some information on the Net that could help you to understand more about this condition. I'm waiting to see how much our relationship can change before I make any decisions about the marriage. Again, I'm here if you want to talk and/or support.

Well, i have experience, and you cannot change her, she has to want to do that by facing her past. BPD is partly a coping mechanism for managing a very, extra sensitive person with lots of fears of loss of control. . . . and wanting to be the center of attention at all times. . . .<p>The book i read that answered questions that i had for 18 years, is "BPD, walking on eggshells" or something like that. . . and in that book, the only answer it has for you is to NOT allow the other person to manipulate you with the types of manipulation that they use.<p>In other words, they may interpret your particular choice of clothes as saying "$uck you today." However, you just happen to like the combination for today. . . (this was pointed out in the book, and I was on the receiving end of just that converstaion almost verbatim from the book) so you need to lay down the boundary that her opinion is not your opinion, and you are an individual with your own personality and views, and you will act independently based upon your view of the situation. . . .<p>they will tend to want to control your so that there are no changes, as they can't handle change very well, so they want a routine. . . now if you want peace with her, then you establish a routine and stick with it no matter what. . . .<p>there were so many routines that i had to follow that it was very rigid and shallow. . . . be home at exactly a certain time, leave home at exactly a certain time, have dinner at exactly a certain time, dishes had to be done as soon as possible right after dinner, there could be no dirty dishes in the sink in the morning, food had to be back in the refridgerator as soon as possible or else it was contaminated. . . she felt very comfortable in a teaching job with a schedule for every class. . . . but as for a management job, with varying responsibilities and time demands, very frustrating for her. . . . but one of the weird problems is that they are so focused on controlling the external world that they lose sight of their own selves, meaning I was yelled at for leaving out a dish on a counter FULL of other junk not put away. .. but that was irrelevant, it was her control of the situation and particularly me that is most important, as they view relationships as their source of energy and control . . . .<p>read the books, read the articles on the website from the BPD point of view have you seen them?
search on the link below and read up on the articles there on BPD. .. .<p>finally, in order to gain their respect, you have to be tough on your boundaries, meaning if they start to exceed your level disrespect allowed, you walk away. . . and i mean every single time, but you warn them that if they persist in XYZ, you will walk away. . . and you have to do it every time, no matter what, and then they will begin to learn from you, but to fight fire with fire only escalates their self fulfilling prophecies of BPD.<p>good luck
but read, read, read. . . <p>for me, i realized that it was a losing battle,
because she is a 3rd generation BPD, and she has learned well from her FOO, and there is no way to convince her otherwise, with parents who pander to BPD and don't stand up with any boundaries. . . in fact, BPD people love conflict avoiders as they are easily manipulated. . . .<p>gotta get some work done

Just great!!! <p>"Well, i have experience, and you cannot change her, she has to want to do that by facing her past. BPD is partly a coping mechanism for managing a very, extra sensitive person with lots of fears of loss of control. . . . and wanting to be the center of attention at all times"<p>I'm not sure if they were issues for her, the control thing absolutely, center of attention? Not sure. She was the younges, alwas talked about the older one picking on her, and getting in trouble for taking up for her self<p>. . . .
"The book i read that answered questions that i had for 18 years, is "BPD, walking on eggshells" or something like that. . . and in that book,"<p>That is the book i looked at, guess I'll have to grab it today<p> "the only answer it has for you is to NOT allow the other person to manipulate you with the types of manipulation that they use."<p>Funny I sort of came to the conclusion long ago (like maybe last year lol) that I will live my life as I want (and as I'd want someone to do to me) and she can be part of it on not as she choses.<p>
"In other words, they may interpret your particular choice of clothes as saying "$uck you today." However, you just happen to like the combination for today. . . (this was pointed out in the book, and I was on the receiving end of just that converstaion almost verbatim from the book) so you need to lay down the boundary that her opinion is not your opinion, and you are an individual with your own personality and views, and you will act independently based upon your view of the situation. . . ."<p>
Again interesting. I bet a lot of our fights might revolve around this issue if I think of them<p>"they will tend to want to control your so that there are no changes, as they can't handle change very well, so they want a routine"<p>Oh my god, how many times I've said that about her. If I am 10 min late I hear why are you late? Didn't know i punched a time clock. If I stop for an hour or 2 on a fri to have a beer with friends you'd think I came in at 2 am. Calling at the last min, telling her company will be over for dinner this evening? forget it.<p>"now if you want peace with her, then you establish a routine and stick with it no matter what" <p>guess i am not going to have much peace, I am not 1 to live by routine, maybe that's a lot of the problem<p>
"there were so many routines that i had to follow that it was very rigid and shallow. . . . be home at exactly a certain time, leave home at exactly a certain time, have dinner at exactly a certain time, dishes had to be done as soon as possible right after dinner, there could be no dirty dishes in the sink in the morning, food had to be back in the refridgerator as soon as possible or else it was contaminated"<p>some of this she does, some she doesn't, depends on the issue, and if it's her job to do. <p>"she felt very comfortable in a teaching job with a schedule for every class. . . . but as for a management job, with varying responsibilities and time demands, very frustrating for her"<p>maybe why she doesn't work. She has her own set schedule<p>"but one of the weird problems is that they are so focused on controlling the external world that they lose sight of their own selves, meaning I was yelled at for leaving out a dish on a counter FULL of other junk not put away.<p>yes!!! That is what I meant about her doing some and not doing others, depending if it was her job or not.<p>"but that was irrelevant, it was her control of the situation and particularly me that is most important, as they view relationships as their source of energy and control"<p>hence the reason she won't support me doing anything on my own? or going away on my own for something??<p>"finally, in order to gain their respect, you have to be tough on your boundaries, meaning if they start to exceed your level disrespect allowed, you walk away. . . and i mean every single time, but you warn them that if they persist in XYZ, you will walk away. . . and you have to do it every time, no matter what, and then they will begin to learn from you, but to fight fire with fire only escalates their self fulfilling prophecies of BPD."<p>
ok, This I'll try, problem is she's extreamly good at knowing which manipulation tool to use<p>
"for me, i realized that it was a losing battle,
because she is a 3rd generation BPD,"<p>I'm sure she's a 2nd, as her father was exactly the same, and her mother extreamly timid<p> "BPD people love conflict avoiders as they are easily manipulated"<p>That's me, the last thing I want to do is have a fight about some stupid bs after a long day at work so I usually give in. <p>Isn't trying to plan a her all but impossable? i mean won't she just feed off of the extra "niceness - doormat" what ever you want to call it and become more controlling and manipulative.<p>
Funny I remember her saying something once about just doing what she wanted and we wouldn't fight, and many times about power struggles and tension over power. <p>
gotta get some work done

OK, so I ran out and bought "stop walking on eggshells"<p>Of the criteria I can tell - 2 involve inside feelings - she absolutely fits 6, with a strong possibility for the other 3, as well as many of the extra traits. So now what? Is this something that comes ang goes over time? Some behaviors fit her when she was in school (drugs), and none of it seems to fit the first 7-10 years we were together. Maybe because I was around and not interested in doing things away from her?

yES, i HEARD THIS ALSO:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Funny I remember her saying something once about just doing what she wanted and we wouldn't fight, and many times about power struggles and tension over power. <hr></blockquote><p>In the beginning, she asked me "Why don't you do just what i ask without questions or having to understand?" I told her that i don't do anything that i don't understand for the sake of doing it. I could get in troubble doing that some day.<p>When she was on the losing end of an argument, she would say: "I just don't want to argue" which means i want you to agree with me. . . .<p>How about this: all our lives, she would get pissed if she was not asked to do something, which is legitimate. . . when she had her BPD attack, and i asked her if she wanted to come back to the counselor with me, she said:
"NO! and don't ask me those questions because i don't know how to say no!"<p>well, you just said no didn't you? i dind't reply. . . .<p>the BPD episode is her fighting her parent's battles in her marriage, because she sees her life like her parent's lives. . . . that's how she measures herself. . . .<p>she told me: "We have to get divorced because my parents should have divorced!"<p>she told me: "You are too independent!"
she told me: "You rich people aren't real."<p>these are clearly her inability to control me, and therefore, she feels out of control with me. . . my XMIL controls my XFIL by getting sick whenever he starts to get too independent from her. . . and XMIL is nothing but skin and bones, and can barely walk. . . .<p>what's funny is that XFIL made a sweeping generalization that was not true, and i disagreed with him. . . he refused to talk to me the rest of the conversation. . . . <p>so as far as control, so you think that a teching job is not perfect? teaching hs students where you have the ultimate authority and knowledge? I remember so many days where i had to pick her up and get her to coaching soccer that she fought for, and then she got it and had a major breakdown because she didn't know how to play or coach it. . . . it is all ego and control related. . . <p>and it will be until her dying day. . . unless she decides she can't live that way anymore. . . .<p>good luck
wiftty

as far as i see X, it gets worse because now she has to give up the kids to me on weekends and vacations. . . major stressor and she manipulates the kids and tries to make herself number one in their eyes to their detriment. . . <p>there is alot of guilt, and there is alot of loss of control. . . . she went bonkers when i took the kids on my first vacation while separated: i mean calling me all kinds of names, immoral, i shouldn't do this, etc. . . because she was losing her kids to the enemy. .. .<p>god, i could go on and on. . . . while attending son's athletic contests, she and 9-10 yo d will make out in the stands, hugging and kissing on the lips, X making extra effort to make sure d knows she is the mom and loves her more than anything else in the world. . . i will just wait until d starts to become independent. . . .. <p>ugh!<p>so it just gets worse but you need to counsel your son on how to not take the bait, and to walk away, or just stand and say politely, "i disagree. . . " and then "guilt won't work"<p>and you need to set the example. ... . .
so that the kids will follow your example. . .
however,the result is that your W might become so out of control that she freaks and files for divorce, etc. that is the risk with these people. . . .<p>good luck
wiftty

what is XMIL - xfil?<p> I didn't read the book any last night, just kind of digested it, couldn't really bring it in the house around W yet. It hit me like a truck. My mother is this and more. I have not spoken to her since I was 20. As I look through the criteria my mother had most, and bad.<p>She'd become close friends and 3-6 months later they were the enemy, usually over some imagined event. Self destructive, physically to her self, spending, drugs (diet pills) binge eating, shoplifting big time. Funny thing was she'd get caught many times in the same area, and the PA would demmand that she be locked up. She'd always manage to talk her way out of it. She'd get court ordered psych, and have them feeling she was the victum.Massive mood swings, in a matter of seconds she could go from happy to rage to happy. Litterally in 30 seconds.<p>I remember so many times over the past few years - probably 7-10 years ago it started with my wife -I wondered why I married someone so much like my mother. My wife is not as bad, her issues seem to center around control, a set routine, not allowing people to get close, and major mood swings. She doesn't really have the self destructive behavior (maybe spending issues) though did drugs as a kid, not sure if that counts in this.<p>
It's funny, I see a lot of things in these posts like her. She was almost attached at the hip to my son, not that he's a teen and wants independance they have a lot of fights. He wants freedom, she doesn't want him to have it. He rebels, hse tries to hold on tighter and I end up in the middle.<p>"she told me: "You rich people aren't real"<p>She's never said that, but she always acts like wealthy people are somehow bad because they have money, that it's not fair. I get paid extreamly well, and she always thinks my company should pay me more. She always says it's not fair if the owner buys a new car, goes on a trip. She thinks he should give the cash to the employees (meaning her)<p>
"however,the result is that your W might become so out of control that she freaks and files for divorce, etc. that is the risk with these people. "<p>we had a fight once, it actually started as a what's wrong, why was I in a bad mood discussion. I told her (ironicly enough) that living around her was like walking on eggshells. Within 5 min she had packed some stuff and left. I felt the most intense relief. Unfortunately she came back 2 hours later, was all solem etc. <p>The ***** of this, one of the things that got me through a very bad childhod (apparently because my mother had this badly) was the knowledge that it wouldn't last forever, I'd grow up and away from it. So what do I do, marry someone with the same problem.

XMIL - XMotherInLaw
XFIL - XFatherInLaw
XIL - XInLaws<p>you seem to want to draw exact comparisons between some of my quotes and your W's quotes. . .that is a little too black and white, there may be similarities of issues, which makes the diagnosis more plausible, but think and relate more in generalities of issues, such as money, or interpretations of career choices. . .<p>my X told me, "I wan't real and only firefighters and emts are real because they put there butts on the line everyday." the interpretation of this comment is to support her life choices of low paying, high social service career choices as better than high paying, business careers. again, the devaluation begins to make herself feel better with no effort for real esteem on her part. When i asked her what i did for a living, she said she didn't know and couldn't answer the question. Yet, i have shown her, taught her because she needed the skills at one point in her career, but she couldn't remember or understand. . . this is typical for BPD in the memory is only very recent and for the moment. . . .<p>so you have FOO (Family Of Origin) issues that are haunting you? I suggest some good counseling, do you like to read?<p>there are tons of books on life. . . . and what a psychotheraputic journey is like. . . .
one that i love to read and reread is, because it addresses the topic of internal power struggles and control, and the illusion of control<p>"if you meet the buddha on the Road, kill him"<p>by sheldon kopp. . . . . great book, filled with examples of power struggles in literature that you should have read in high school . . . with shakespeare's "Macbeth," Dante's "Inferno", Conrad's "Heart of Darkness", there are more. . .<p>anyway, its about the struggle to make meaning of life, and the internal struggle for control . . . and the illusion of power and the power of control . . . but you have to read it slowly and carefully if you aren't a student of literature. . .<p>good luck, you have some very interesting decisions ahead of yourself. . . . and i think that good counseling, both through reading or finding a leader, is key to your happiness right now. . . .<p>good luck
wiftty

Although I do amateur psychoanalysis myself, and so am in no position to criticize, I think I can at least offer a caution: many psychological issues/disorders/illnesses exhibit similar symptoms. Make the wrong diagnosis, and you can easily come up with the wrong prognosis. And you can easily respond inappropriately.<p>On the other hand, tengu, it concerns me that you think your mother may have BPD. It seems that it is extremely common for men to marry women who are like their mothers in significant ways. So you may have something of a cross-check there.<p>For what it's worth, I have seen many of the symptoms of NPD and BPD in my wife, but I have also seen counter-indications. I suspect that her father has NPD, and that because she learned many of her coping strategies from him she exhibits some of the same characteristics, particularly in her current state of denial and self-delusion (aka "the fog"). But I do not believe that she herself has NPD, and our counselor/psychotherapist (who has known my wife longer than I have) agrees with me.<p>I didn't talk with the therapist about BPD, but the fit is no better, in my judgement. When I looked at the aspects of my wife's personality and character that went against the DSM's descriptions of these personality disorders, and when I discovered plausible alternative explanations for those of her behaviors that did appear to match, I pretty much gave up on the idea that a "pat" psychological label could be usefully applied.<p>I myself struggled with depression for about six years, and although I did not choose the genetic or environmental factors that led to it, I did choose how I responded. I believe that my wife has a similar power to choose her behavior, that she is not inevitably "trapped" by her FOO issues.<p>But I cannot make my wife's choice for her, any more than she could make my choice for me.

<p>[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: OvrCs ]</p>

tengu,<p>Ratz here. I am a rat. Really many rats because I have these personality disorders... Borderline and Narcissistic. I have split personalities with compartments. I am an amazing divorced guy. A major betrayer and affair rogue.
_______<p>
I think you are a rat, too. We think the same. We act the same. But you are only a baby rat. You can become a big fat rat if you want. You are almost there. If you keep up relishing your degrading interior line of thinking much longer, you will develop into a most fiendish ratz, like myself.

Here is how you are turning yourself from a baby rat into a supreme wizard ratz:<p>Here is what you already think:<p>I am a most excellent specimen of the human race. I am healthy and vigorous and sexually virile.<p> I am an accomplished, determined, self-disciplined masculine martial artist. <p> I am a financially successful, hard-working, hard-driving, intelligent, white-collar contributor to society and to the Gross National Product.<p>I am a fine, upstanding citizen.<p>I am a wonderful loving family man.<p>I am a stable and involved father, stingily performing duties of child care.<p>I am the breadwinner and sole provider for my non-descript family.<p>I am logical, reasonable, and able to think for myself and for my wife.<p>I am victimized by my manipulative, needy, vulture wife.<p> I want to venture out into the world on my own and have a life of my own, like a bachelor, but my wife imagines we are married.<p> As a husband, I am completeley unselfish, self-giving, and mutually supportive of my wife in all things; even bending over backwards in giving more than my "fair share", like United Way. <p> I most certainly am not angry that my neurologically handicapped wife with multiple sclerosis has a serious, incurable, debilitating, chronic, paralyzing, and progressively worsening life-threatening terminal illness.<p>I am not mad that she is utterly lazy and doesn't do a single thing around the house...<p>M. S., P.M.S., B.S., they are all lame excuses for not working as hard as I do. I am the Gold Standard of hard-work; and sick wife doesn't measure up anymore like she did as the healthy wife of my youth. She can easily be replaced with a better quality worker now that she is no longer useful.<p>Nope, I am not angry at all that she refuses to "work" up to my high expectations by using her M.S. trump card and claiming she is sick... <p>I'm NOT angry that she doesn't punch her time-card that I installed next to our front door...or observe the "Working Hours of Lazy Worthless Housewife" sign I posted above the kitchen sink... or appreciate my "On-Probation Housewife Employee Evaluation Form" rating I gave her after her recent failed performance assessment.<p>I am not gratified that I will soon be forced to FIRE her from her already lowly status as my wife, old lady, and her puny non-job as my housewife. The kids will see my fine example of not tolerating inferior non-performers. <p>If she doesn't shape up fast, or wind up in a wheelchair to prove she's sick, then I have no choice but to pretend I'm not a selfish ******* deserting my family, by secretly meeting my needs in the bed of a more mutually capable and deserving woman.<p>And most of all, above all things, I am fair. Eminently fair. I am the Judge of Fairness.
I judge all things and define what is fair. I am the standard-bearer and keeper of justice. I know what is fair and I decide what is fair. <p>I declare exactly what menial chores are deemed worthless "woman's work"; those wife must do 24 hours a day, since she doesn't "work". I declare exactly what achievements are important valuable "men's career"; those man succeeds at only from 9-5 weekdays. All other non-stop coverage on the homefront is slave wife's responsibility. <p> Sometimes I get confused and wonder why I get so irritated at having to do 50% of her "jobs" when I get home, since I keep saying that it isn't even "work", because being a housewife means she doesn't "work"!<p>I Especially have the Authority to define, rule over, and issue edicts on equality and fairness, as I see fit, in my judgements about my wife. I define and label her personality, her behavior, her family, and her entire reality and lack of value as a person.
___________<p>In fact, tengu, you believe you now have the omnipotent, God-like privilege to see and to define the person of your wife as she REALLY is. <p>She is really nothing. She is nobody. She is a zero and worse. <p>Now you are playing pastor and doctor...She is... Possibly adulterous pondscum? Maybe psychiatrically disordered BPD or NPD? Hopelessly screwed up from childhood?<p>Have you lovingly and personally assisted this deranged woman to the compassionate care of a licensed M.D. psychiatrist for a thorough DSM-IV diagnostic evaluation?... referrals, second opinions, marriage counseling... trials of effective medications and useful treatment therapies?<p>Your gavel of justice has struck a verdict on her and she is pronounced worthless. Her defective personality traits are manifest and the prosecution has won the case against her. She is guilty of being a selfish, disgusting, lazy, unlovable wife.<p>She has committed no marital misconduct...no crimes...no adultery...no addiction...no abuse...no abandonment...<p>Your wife is simply unlovable. <p>Your wife is incapable of working as hard as you think she should, so she is unworthy of as self-giving a man as you.<p>You Definitely Deserve Better than Her!
_______________<p>GOOOOD, tengu, good. You are a betrayer, tengu!
You have already arrived at infidelity! <p>Step One: Adultery in your heart first. Next is Step Two. Adultery in the slippery, slimy flesh.<p>In fact, you have been unfaithful to her now for many years. Despising her, scorning her, looking down your nose at her.<p>Now, you are ready to fully betray her.<p>My wife is selfish.
My wife is demanding.
My wife is controlling.
My wife is blamed for all my unhappiness; she is so bad, it is her fault that I am justified in being bad too..."What goes around should come around..."<p>Now, go commit adultery, tengu...it already is rationalized in your mind...Sexual Revenge...Angry Vindictive Self-Righteous Illicit Sex---It's the BEST!!...your orgiastic way to even up the score...<p>Have the affair! <p>If she catches you...Divorce her!<p>Don't try therapy or professional help first, you might actually wind up seeing something good in your boring wife!!
____________<p>Tengu, You need to GRIEVE... You are So sad and so hurt and so angry....You know she is sick with M.S. and weakening, and fatiguing, and tiring, and becoming vulnerable and emotionally fragile, and weak and less able to work...<p>Have you Grieved over this loss WITH her?? Or have you gone in for the kill? Your choice.<p> You two are running away from the only possible chance in this world for true love... If only you forgive her now... then vomit up in her lap all your hatred and resentment and disdain and scapegoating of her..... Ask her to forgive You!<p>Go... Put the kids to bed... take her by her tender hand... Lock the bedroom door...Confess everything in your seething angry heart...Weep the tears of fear and loss of losing her...Bleed all over her with your hurt and pain... Beg her forgiveness for your emotional unfaithfulness.<p>She will fall into your arms with tears of regret and gratitude. She will be irresistably drawn to passionate sexual union with you in a renewed way.<p>If you show her a change of heart tonight, she will desire more than anything to be the woman of your dreams.<p>You will have the most exquisite love and sex this side of heaven if you forgive your wife for becoming sick...It's not her fault, tengu.... Please, go now and sob in her arms...Be a courageous man for her...Show her manly sorrow...<p>Totally give up your "oriental lover"...Your martial arts hobby!! Give it all up and radically re-commit to her in her time of weakness!! You can always resume karate later in a year or so if she goes into remission... <p>This marriage can be restored til death parts you.<p>If she rejects you... then consider sacrificial love til she dies, or separation if need be to protect you from emotional danger in the marriage. <p>Stop the infidelity no matter what; or you will wind up a sewer rat, just like me.<p>The Ratz<p> ratzr@hotmail.com<p>[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Ratz ]</p>

"you seem to want to draw exact comparisons between some of my quotes and your W's quotes."<p>Yes maybe good maybe bad. I'm trying hard to be objective, and to not try to make things "fit".<p> "that is a little too black and white, there may be similarities of issues, which makes the diagnosis more plausible, but think and relate more in generalities of issues, such as money, or interpretations of career choices" <p>I agree here also, but that is also why I've been here so long, and questioned my self as the problem.<p>
"my X told me, "I wan't real and only firefighters and emts are real because they put there butts on the line everyday." the interpretation of this comment is to support her life choices of low paying, high social service career choices as better than high paying, business careers. again, the devaluation begins to make herself feel better with no effort for real esteem on her part. When i asked her what i did for a living, she said she didn't know and couldn't answer the question. Yet, i have shown her, taught her because she needed the skills at one point in her career, but she couldn't remember or understand. . . this is typical for BPD in the memory is only very recent and for the moment"<p>
not sure how much this applies<p>"so you have FOO (Family Of Origin) issues that are haunting you? I suggest some good counseling, do you like to read?"<p>Yes FOO issues, and that is an understatement. My mother seems to have also have had this (based on what I've read so far) though so bad she could not hold a job, interact with people, was very self destructive in many aspects. A good counsoler? One of my first jobs today. <p>
"there are tons of books on life. . . . and what a psychotheraputic journey is like. . . .
one that i love to read and reread is, because it addresses the topic of internal power struggles and control, and the illusion of control"<p>I'll have to check this out<p>"if you meet the buddha on the Road, kill him"<p>
"good luck, you have some very interesting decisions ahead of yourself. . . . and i think that good counseling, both through reading or finding a leader, is key to your happiness right now."<p>Yes I think you are right, I think if kids were not involved my decisions would be so much easier. Right now? I have no idea what to do, so I will start slow, find a good coun. and go from there. To be honest, knowing I am not a nut case (ok relitively speaking) is a huge relief, and explains so much<p>
"good luck"<p>thanks, think I'll need it

gnome<p>"Although I do amateur psychoanalysis myself, and so am in no position to criticize, I think I can at least offer a caution: many psychological issues/disorders/illnesses exhibit similar symptoms. Make the wrong diagnosis, and you can easily come up with the wrong prognosis. And you can easily respond inappropriately."<p> Yes you are so right, I don't even have enough knowledge in this area to be a novice. I do read well, and do learn to apply what others have written. I may very well be wrong, but I also know I am not to wrong, she has some form or disorder and it needs to be addressed. I have a 15 year old son, the damage is probable done to him from this, I can only hope I can get some of it undone. I also have a 4 year old, and I can't let this repeat with her.<p>"On the other hand, tengu, it concerns me that you think your mother may have BPD."<p>Based on the book I read, she has BPD or some other disorder simmilar.<p>
"It seems that it is extremely common for men to marry women who are like their mothers in significant ways. So you may have something of a cross-check there."<p> It's funny I When my wife and I dated (late teens) we'd get in a fight and I'd say she was just like my mother, ironic how true, maybe even then on some minor level.<p>
"For what it's worth, I have seen many of the symptoms of NPD and BPD in my wife, but I have also seen counter-indications."<p>NPD???? Counter indications? Maybe, but like any mental illness doesn't it manifest differently? My mother was a total basket case from this, but control over me was not an issue - I used to go all over hells half acre - in the summer I was up at dawn and gone till dark every day. She never had any problems with this. My wife on the other hand will start calling me if I am 15 min late from work. <p>
"I suspect that her father has NPD, and that because she learned many of her coping strategies from him she exhibits some of the same characteristics, particularly in her current state of denial and self-delusion (aka "the fog"). "

I don't know her father well enough, just from what I've seen and heard, he may have some issues, or something else simmilar.<p>"But I do not believe that she herself has NPD, and our counselor/psychotherapist (who has known my wife longer than I have) agrees with me."<p>From what I read, one needs 5 of the 9 to have it, my wife absolutely has 6. Of the 3 left, 1 I don't understand enough, but it could fit if I am correct in my interpretation, and the other 2 deal with her internal feelings I just don't know. The extra traits she has most of. My mother had all 9, and in massive quantities.<p>"I didn't talk with the therapist about BPD, but the fit is no better, in my judgement. When I looked at the aspects of my wife's personality and character that went against the DSM's descriptions of these personality disorders, and when I discovered plausible alternative explanations for those of her behaviors that did appear to match, I pretty much gave up on the idea that a "pat" psychological label could be usefully applied."<p> You may be right here, but that doesn't mean that something serious isn't going on<p>"I myself struggled with depression for about six years, and although I did not choose the genetic or environmental factors that led to it, I did choose how I responded. I believe that my wife has a similar power to choose her behavior, that she is not inevitably "trapped" by her FOO issues."<p>I have never had depression. I have had major issues with self esteem, self doubt etc. Not too supprising when you are being (especially as a kid) ridiculed daily, are led to believe that you are wrong in your thinking. Hell my mother was so bad that when I went in the military, basic was a snap - I was so used to being screamed at the DI's seemed mild in comparison.<p>"But I cannot make my wife's choice for her, any more than she could make my choice for me."<p>So true. Kind of ironic, last year when things were really bad, I mad the decision that I would live my life as I wanted (within reason, doing to her as I'd have her do to me) and she could be part of it or not as she chose. Kind of ironic, seems like the course of action one muct take with this.....

Ratz,<p>
I read this and my first reaction was how dare you bash me, who the F%^& do you think you are. The reality is, you don't know me, you don't know my life, what I lived through growing up. You don't know my wife or what I've gone through with her. I never claimed to be perfect - only normal. Normal people AREN't perfect - just normally flawed. I think I've said in many posts on here, I'd love to have a relationship where we both are there for each other and lovingly support each other in all our life's persuits. That just is not something I see with my wife.<p>Living with someone who has this (or at leas has the symptoms ) is not a normal life. Have you ever lived with someone who has this? Do you know what it's like to have no friends because your spouse will not get close to others, meaning she wants no regular social interaction with people because they might become too friendly. That means you can't invite friend over for a cookout, dinner etc. I/we have no close friends, just people that we see a few times a year - enough so they can't become too close. Do you have any idea what it's like to have someone constantly telling you you are wrong do more, and you do, only to be told you are wrong do more, on and on, then to be told you do too much? You start to question your very being you own sanity - maybe I am really a basket case. Sounds like from your own admission you have many issues of your own to deal with, don't compare yourself to me, don't make assumptions or my life without knowing me. <p>I also have to kids to think of. As their father I am responsable for their safety and well being. I saw what my mothers psychosis did to me, I see some of the same effects on my kids.<p>Since you are going to jump up on your soap box, tell me what I should do? stand by and watch my kids be screwed up from this? Should I give up having a life to please my wife? Should I stop activities because she doesn't like them. Should I live a life with no friends or social life? You tell me what I should do since you seem to think you know more about my life than I do<p>I started to address your commments line by line, but you know, I'm not going to wase my time. You are telling me how I feel and what I think, yet you've never met me. You've read a few lines of text I wrote, and are drawing conclusions and saying this is who I am. Most of them are so far from the truth it isn't funny.

Ok here's the $64k question. I want to find a doc that treats this to get her there. I can't exactly go home tonight and say hey honey, guess what I think you have..........<p>If I go, make an appt and try to start this, she'll see the insurance info when they bill for it. How do I start this without it blowing up in a huge fireball?

tengu....<p>What if you were to suggest that you go to someone for marriage counseling that specializes in this disorder. That's what I did, and it seems to be working. Is your spouse receptive to going to marriage counseling? Give it a try....what do you have to lose? As for insurance, unfortunately our MC isn't in any plans.

My insurance will cover sessions. My problem is that I know if I say anything to upset the status quoe, it'll be a fight. She once asked me why I was upset, I told her I was tired of all the fighting, that living with her was like walking on eggs ironic isn't it. Within 5 min of the start of that discussion/arguement whatever you call it, she was packing bags and left. Unfortunately she came back in 2 hours all solem and sorry. I guess the real issue is how to get her to go without it being a battle or making her worse