Follower, I am pro-choice, so feel free to ignore me if you want to.<p>This is an awful situation, because no matter what happens, one of you will feel that the other imposed their life decision on the other. If you brow beat your wife into continuing the pregnancy, she will feel that you have hijacked her body and FORCED her to breed. Sure, she may come to love the child more than life itself-- or not. Can you imagine the anguish of a mother who cannot bond with her child because of her abiding resentment of the circumstances of its birth? Or the despair of the child?<p>On the other hand, if she has the abortion, you will feel that she has "murdered" your son or daughter. I'd hate to be the wife trying to rebuild a relationship with a man who considered me a murderer.<p>If there was ever a situation deserving the POJA treatment, this is it. The two of you need to think all the ramifications through to their logical conclusions. "How will you feel in a year if...? What will we do when...?"<p>But ultimately, it is her final decision. No, there is no state in which a woman needs her husband's consent for an abortion, nor should she. A woman who feels that she cannot carry a pregnancy to term should not be forced to do so, because that is a form of slavery.<p>I'll tell you where I'm coming from. I had an abortion. My (then) boyfriend was adamantly not ready to have a child. I went along with what he wanted. Within a couple of years, we were married and had our daughter. I then had three ectopic pregnancies. I don't feel overwhleming guilt or loss about the abortion or the ectopics. I don't feel that I murdered anyone, or that I sinned. And I believe if I had not had the abortion I would not have had the wonderful daughter that I do have. But at some level I do resent that what should have been my decision was deferred to what he wanted. I can only imagine that that kind of resentment would blossom exponentially if I had been forced to be a brood mare against my desire.

Please print this out and give it to your wife.<p>Dear wife of "follower":
Follower has posted his concern about you wanting to have an abortion and feeling unsure if this is what you want in your life. I understand your feelings of insecurity, because I have been there, too.
Before my H and I married, I became pregnant and was only 20 at the time, and already had a child from a previous relationship (got pregnant from my ex-boyfriend and then he dumped me when I had the baby).
I was a straight-A student in school and had a future in front of me and then I became pregnant when I was in grade 12 and everything changed. I chose not to have an abortion, but when I became pregnant with my H (who was my boyfriend at the time) I became frightened as the past incidents that occured crept up to me. All I could remember was how much pain I felt when my ex boyfriend didn't wnt anything to do with the fathering of my son, and I wondered if that would happen again. Perhaps you too are wondering if you have this baby, things won't work out and then you will be stuck, so an abortion may be the easier road for you.
My H encouraged me to have the abortion because he felt we were both too young and not married, and I already had a child and was finally going to school and studying for a career. I cried and prayed and lied to my best friend about the pregnancy, and I told her I miscarried. I had the abortion, but not without resent towards my H, who was the one insistent I had it. I was leaning towards the idea, but thought that we could pull through and find a way, if only we tried. I was afraid if I didn't have the abortion he would leave anyway like my ex boyfriend. After the abortion, I suffered from sever depression. Our relationship became even worse and I was just getting well enough in the spring to kick his butt out when I became pregnant again. You may wonder at this point of my story if I believed in birth control-of course I did. I became pregnant on the pill-taking the strongest pill, at the same time each day.
I was that one percent.
I refused at that point to have an abortion and nine months later, our son was born. I always regret having the abortion-especialyl since I became pregnant anyhow. After having our son, our relationship became rocky again quite quickly and it was a battle for quite some time and life wasn't always easy. But things are improving-we are getting along better and our marriage is becoming stronger slowly. There are still rough times and doubts but having the baby didn't ruin my life, it only made it better-having a beautiful, smart son who loves me with all his heart.
A year after that, we decided to marry and try to make things work, and I became pregnant again, on IUD. I wasn't planning to have any more children for awhile, hence the IUD. I was devastated to find this out, but the pregnancy was a tubal one and we lost the baby. I remember feelnig somewhat relieved, but also did feel sadness since I wanted to have another baby with my H someday, and now my fertility was in question.
It took us five years to get pregnant, and I only had one fallopian tube left-a miracle. Of course when I became pregnant I was very afraid because it happened quickly and a little earlier than planned-I hadn't purposely gotten pregnant but we were talking of getting pregnant last fall or winter.
I just had my third baby-our only daughter, and when she was born there was some problems and we thought she might die.
When I was faced with that, I realized there was nothing I wanted more than her to live, and regretted ever doubting if things would work out having three kids or being pregnant.
My marriage hasn't always been exemplary, but the most amazing moments have included my children.
After going through an abortion, and almost losing a child, I realize now life is so precious and IS a gift.
This decision of yours is permanent and perhaps there is no changing your mind and you will go ahead and do what you must feel you have to do.
But it will not make your marriage better-it will tear it apart because you both cannot agree and your H will be resentful, as I felt resentful for my H's encouragement to have an abortion.
I don't know what else to say, but I pray you consider that some things in life are mysterious and meant to happen, and maybe this is meant to be.

no long lectures here....in your marriage...all decisions should be made jointly....but in your wife's body...i think she gets the final say. I hope she will discuss it with you, I hope that it is a careful decision that she makes understanding all of your feelings....but I think it is her decision and I hope that you will love her and support her no matter what. she may want an abortion....but if you listen to the many testimonies here...she many not even be able to follow through...i certainly considered it when i got pregnant the last time...see my threads to understand the reason why....and like me not be able to follow through....but I support her right to make that decision.

Let her get the abortion and support her decision. She feels the pregnancy was a big mistake that she does not want to pay for for the next 25 years. Why bring a child into that environment....She needs your support, please quit treating her like a mindless "baby carrying" vessel. You act as if you love the baby inside her more than her or her opinion. Bring her to the clinic and assist her in getting the abortion. Anything else will be like a 25 year prison sentence for her! Love your wife enough to respect her decision.

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

Where are we going when we can put the laws of man ahead of the laws God has written in our hearts?<p>Yes, everyone has the "right"/free will to make their own choices...
...choice is good...
...when it is a choice to kill... it is always the wrong choice.<p>Yes, there are absolutes in this world...
...but the our culture has taught us...
...we can set our own relativistic standards of right and wrong...
...in fact... we can be like Gods... (where have I heard of this before!?)<p>Follower...
...as the husband... you can tell your W...
...it is wrong.
...don't ever be ashamed to tell your loved ones the difference between right and wrong.
...if you don't... can you really claim to be their loved ones?<p>Yes... you will be admonsihed by others for speaking the truth...
...life as a follower... must come with your own acknowledgement of accepting or rejecting the truth... and you will suffer for living the truth...<p>Seek His grace and mercy...
...and pray for conversion of the mind and spirit of your W.<p>I know I'll be praying.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

I'm a Christian who believes that abortion is a personal choice. <p>Although I believe that the fetus has a soul and is a person before birth, I will fight to the death my right to terminate the pregnancy - and will answer to God for my choices, I'm sure. <p>That said, abortion is one of the most difficult decisions, and one which can haunt the woman for years. Sometimes the real pain doesn't come until much later in life. And sometimes, it is a choice which she will never regret. Either way, it is ultimately her decision. <p>I believe that you have a right to know her choice, and that you two should decide together, but the bottom line is that it's her body, and if you want your relationship to survive, you need to respect that and support her.<p>I hope she doesn't get it, truly. I would have a very hard time making that decision myself.

ALL.<p>WOW! Don't know what to say with all the responses that I've received, both positive and negative. But I know I can say this.... "Thanks".<p>This is why I post. If I had all the answers, I wouldn't be posting on this forum in the first place. I come to this forum for advice and help. I also have a counselor. But sometimes we search elsewhere for answers and need a second or third opinion. You know?!<p>I respect ALL comments given... and I do mean ALL. I never expected to hear things ONE SIDED. The more I heard comments, both positive and negative, the more my eyes opened up. All this time I thought about what "I" should do and what "I" thought was right. I rarely thought about my W's side of the story. But what I really feel is most important right now is... I need to concentrate and think about my STBC.<p>All, please don't get me wrong. My W is a lovely and sweet person. I may have "down-graded" her by saying things I probably shouldn't have. Or I may have made her seem like a "mindless" person. But she is my W and I love her dearly.<p>This isn't easy for me. I hear some of you say...
- I should respect her decision.
- I should do all I can to convince her to keep it.
- It's not right for the STBC to be brought into this environment.
- Keeping it will effect your marriage.
- Killing it will effect your marriage.
- You shouldn't have sex after this.
- She should have her tubes tied.
...etc.
And all of you have good reason and logic behind it. Which is what makes it hard for me. But in the end it all falls into OUR hands (W and Myself) and the hands of God.<p>I'll need to read over ALL your replies again and again. Also, I need to talk to my wife AGAIN about all this - but don't want to give her an ultimatum. I want this choice to be something we BOTH agree upon. In that way - there will be no pointing fingers.<p>I'll be sure to keep you all updated.<p>THANKS AGAIN.<p>... I'm still open to comments and suggestions.

Follower:<p>Although I am anti-abortion, this is a decision that ultimately rests with your wife. I would certainly let her know your feelings about this, and attempt to come to a POJA-style agreement---but in the end, it will be her choice.<p>I would suggest that you might want to try the following:<p>1. Let her know that you believe an abortion is morally wrong. If you believe that you will be able to continue in your marriage---you should let her know that you will still "love" her, even though you don't support that decision.<p>2. If she won't keep the child as her own, it would help to ask if she would consider adoption. Although that's not high on your list, it would save the baby's life. It also would give your wife time to reconsider the decision (although I would advise you to NOT pressure her to do so).<p>3. If she decides on the abortion (and you would still want to work on the marriage) I would suggest that you do your best to support her as your wife.<p>My wife had an affair that resulted in a pregnancy by the OM (while we were separated). She decided on an abortion. I had no idea that she was pregnant. She went to a clinic, went inside, registered---and then walked up and left. Our 11th hour miracle is now three years old and sleeping soundly on the couch. God may still work a miracle for you---try to conduct yourself in a moral AND loving manner.<p>And I will keep you all in my prayers. God bless you and your family.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Voice of Reason:
<strong>
"I love you Daddy! I love you too, Mommy. Please let me live! God, my Father, I trust in you."<p> Voice of Ezekial
Voice of Ezra</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're a sick person. you really should seek some kind of help.<p>Isn't this poor guy going through enough as it is???

his wife want to do something against his will, and he feels he can't stop her... YOU ARE NOT HELPING. you are increasing his pain.<p>It's a good thing God loves us so much... get on your knees and ask for Him to forgive you, for tormenting this poor guy's soul...<p>it is not his will for his wife to do this... and trying to make him feel guilty, is not helping, since he feels guilty enough, not been able to convince her otherwise!!!<p>GIVE HIM A BREAK!!!<p>I hate judgmental people... they make me wanna puke!!! that's the reason i left my last church, and haven't joined one since... i can talk to God at home... away from them hypocrites/ liers/ judgmental freaks... who think they have the answer to everything, and that they're better christians than the rest of the world....<p>go ahead and say what you want to me, i don't care. no i don't know your story... what i know is that what you just posted, was not a descent thing for you to do (how does it feel to be the one been judged???)<p>as for you, follower... God knows there's just so much you can do... pray, my friend... pray and ask God to touch your wife's heart... ask God to "visit" her heart, and speak to her... ask him to open her eyes, so she can see clearly...<p>i'm not going to judge you... should you decide that maybe she is right... that's you guys decision...<p>ask God to show you what's the best thing to do... normaly, i'd be against abortions... but life can be a b@#cth sometimes, and put you in a position where you will find yourself doing things you'd normaly not do.<p>whatever you guy's decision is, God will be with you... and NO, He won't stop loving you or sending you to hell should you change your mind and agree with your wife.<p>"nothing can separate us from the love of God." He'll still be there for you. <p>Ask him, follower... he still asnwers prayers.<p>i'll pray your wife will be fair about this and let you have your say as well. you both have to decide together, and come to an agreement.<p>Prayers, <p>Pam.

Brother,<p>As CatWalk1 said, your W may be primarily concerned with a feeling of been trapped. A pregnant woman is very dependant - as is a woman with a young child. Deal with these fears. Do everything you can to give her a sense of freedom and control. Help her find some space. Take as much as possible of the burden of childcare of your already born children. Fix the relationship with your SD. (Don't call her a SD but a D (IMHO)). Get down on your knees and cry and beg. Fast. Pray. Stop going to work. Stop doing anything else. But somehow, avoid manipulative behaviour toward your wife.<p>I'm praying for you all.<p>-AD

I just have to add something-- Ezra is a man's name. If you have this child and she's a girl, please re-think this. If you're stuck on the "ez" combination, how about Elizabeth?

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

For anyone who think abortion is an option I would have to ask: have you had one? Not do you know someone who has, but have you? If you haven't personally had an abortion, i do not think it is your place to advise someone that it is ok. What are you basing your advise on - you haven't been there. You don't have ANY idea what you are recommending. <p>I have had one. And I think ANYONE who has been through it will say it is NOT an option. It WILL effect you the rest of your life and statics show that couples who have abortions are less likely to survive the relationship because of the pain/grief/burden/lifelong effect that it will carry in your relationship. <p>I regret that decision I made 16 years ago - it STILL effects me. I am forgiven, my baby is in heaven, God still loves me. But there is still consequences to our actions/decisions we make. For me it is the brother/sister my children never had. The fact that I never got to hold my baby or tuck him in at night. The grandchildren I will never have from that child because of my decision. I will see him again someday - that is my hope. But to think that an abortion "fixes" things or "solves" something - you are inviting a whole new set of issues in that you will have to live with. Take it from someone who has BEEN THERE - it is an option I wish I never considered.

Sounds like you have other marriage problems besides the abortion. At least the baby you aborted does not have to bear the brunt of all your marriage problems....

"I LuvNprotect Me" ... Thanks. You're right - it would be hard for some to give an ideal response having not been in the situation themselves. But I do appreciate the responses regardless.
------------------------------------------<p>To the person who wrote....
"I love you Daddy! I love you too, Mommy. Please let me live! God, my Father, I trust in you."
Voice of Ezekial
Voice of Ezra
Thanks for the response... but yes - that was not necessary.
-------------------------------------------<p>I am aware that EZRA is a guy's name - but I always thought it sounds good enough to be a girls name as well. Elizabeth - I need to consider [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>But... I'll make that decision if my W decides not to go through with the "A".
-------------------------------------------<p>I've decided to support her decision and to stick by her side regardless. And some of you are right, whatever my W's decision is, if it were to go through with the "A" - that will be between herself and God. And we have an awesome and forgiving God that will never stop loving us. <p>--------------------------------------------
So - I'll keep on praying for my W. But I will not condemn her if she decides to go through with the "A". Again, I need to support her decision and just....keep praying. <p>True...God's "will" be done. But then again... he will not come in the way of my W's "free will".<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Follower ]</p>

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

Follower, <p>Honestly, I was assuming that this would be your choice. Your wife will abort, and you will support &#8211; &#8220;follow&#8221; &#8211; her in her decision.<p>I suspect that the reality is that you have too much of your sense of self invested in your marriage for you to be objective in your decision-making.<p>I suspect that the reality is that too much of your emotional equilibrium is beholden to your relationship with your wife for you to have the courage of your convictions right now. &#8211; Your conviction was that abortion is murder, although, on your behalf, you did write it this way:<p>I'm coming from a "Christian" way of seeing things. God said that He knew us since we were in our mother's womb. So the baby that exists in my W's womb is already a human being. And to go through with this would be "murder."<p>In all fairness, you did hedge your statement by putting quotes around the words Christian and murder, which indicated to me that these were not integral parts of your self-image, that these considerations could not be counted on as weighing heavily in your decision-making in times of stress and strain. They were cursory considerations. Tentative considerations. The quotes around these words indicated to me that these were also optional aspects of your self-image, that in times of stress and adversity and duress, these considerations could not be counted on to be prime or significant considerations. Rather these were considerations that you could fairly easily wiggle your way out of and conveniently jettison overboard. <p>The question that came to me when I first read your post and I was trying to size you up emotionally was: how much of a fight (a respectable and compassionate fight) will he put up for his beliefs? In order to remain consistent with his beliefs is this guy willing to go without sex for an extended period of time? Is he willing to rock the boat or will he be too fearful of pushing his wife away and ending the marriage? Is this guy a person who believes certain things when he doesn&#8217;t have a dog in the fight, but when it comes time to show the courage of his convictions will he find a way of backing down &#8211; a way that will allow him to rationalize his shortfall in courage, a way that will allow him to appear as a good guy? Is this guy an enabler, an accommodator, a peace at all costs kind of guy, or is he a guy who is able to practice tact, who is able to pick and choose his battles, a man who is not willing to compromise his principles, but who holds that compromise is a principle?<p>And these are all questions regarding your integrity, your character. As it is right now, you&#8217;re faced with a difficult choice of integrating your beliefs with your actions. You believe abortion is wrong and that it is the equivalent of murder (those were your words, your beliefs; yes you may have hedged them, but you&#8217;re an adult and you said that you believe that abortion is tantamount to murder). And so now faced with the difficult and anxiety-provoking road of trying to integrate those beliefs with your actions and squaring the two, you are finding out that it&#8217;s easier to change your beliefs to accommodate the situation rather than hold onto yourself and fight amicably, respectfully, judiciously, compassionately for what you believe. See, faced with the choice between the difficulty of living up to one&#8217;s convictions or proving there&#8217;s no need to, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.<p>In others words, it&#8217;s not so much that you want to stick by your wife and support her, it&#8217;s that you don&#8217;t want to lose her: too much of your emotional stability and functioning is tied up in your relationship to her; you are dependent on her. And thus your shortfall in courage, your unwillingness to fight for what you believe and know to be true. That abortion, in this case, is only a few degrees shy of outright murder.<p>Your choice is to be a hero or a zero, a man or an amoeba, to be able to look yourself in the eye or to keep your wife around and get entangled in seeing yourself as she sees you.<p>See, one of the things you have consider is whether or not on some deep level your wife knows or senses or &#8220;feels&#8221; that having an abortion in this case is actually a no-no. If it is, and if you support her, you are buying into her ploy for you to validate her. Your &#8220;stand by your wife&#8221; stance allows her to diffuse responsibility for her decision from her shoulders to both of you.<p>And if this is so, you also need to consider how much she will be able to respect you down the road for having not stood up for your convictions and instead having enabled her in this decision. She may end up resenting you for allowing her to do what she did. (Or she may not; but it is something for you to thoroughly consider and mull over.)<p>
A couple comments on what you wrote:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I've decided to support her decision and to stick by her side regardless. And some of you are right, whatever my W's decision is, if it were to go through with the "A" - that will be between herself and God. And we have an awesome and forgiving God that will never stop loving us.
<hr></blockquote><p>This is a silly rationalization. In fact it gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want. Rob a bank, kill school children, club a seal to death. God is awesome and he will forgive and never stop loving you no matter how you deal with this situation &#8211; whether you enable your wife or whether you exercise the courage of your convictions. The problem with your statement is that it actually provides no guidance whatsoever in making one choice over another. Whether you become a leader of nations or opt to be a solitary drunk or a serial killer, God will never stop loving you. <p>On the surface, your argument may square with the parable of the prodigal son, but it doesn&#8217;t square at all with the parable of the talents, nor does it square at all with Jesus&#8217; words in Matthew 25:31-46. (In fact, Mother Teresa used to cite these words as a cornerstone of her defense of life and the unborn.)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To the person who wrote....
"I love you Daddy! I love you too, Mommy. Please let me live! God, my Father, I trust in you."
Voice of Ezekial
Voice of Ezra
Thanks for the response... but yes - that was not necessary.
<hr></blockquote><p>Why was this not necessary?<p>
And lastly, regardless of the culpability you assign to yourself in this abortion (there&#8217;s enough gray area here for you to conveniently diffuse your responsibilities and play a game of &#8220;helpless bystander&#8221; or &#8220;look, my hands are tied; what possible difference can I make?&#8221; -- ) in the next abortion, you are a full-blown co-conspirator. That&#8217;s why if you do decide to copulate again with your wife, you either <p>(a) must (all of the following, without exception) have a vasectomy, wear a condom, use a spermicide, and your wife must have her tubes tied and use an IUD, (because if you believe as you do, then no longer can abortion be used as a form of birth control, and you cannot donate your sperm to someone whose reverence for life is skewed, underdeveloped, faulty, akilter),<p>or (b) you have to do what is easier: change your beliefs. No longer is abortion tantamount to murder, it&#8217;s a viable and legitimate form of birth control, it&#8217;s permissible, if not desirable, when there are other considerations such as keeping your marriage and family in tact, such as maintaining your emotional equilibrium vis-à-vis your relationship with your wife &#8211; i.e. maintaining your &#8220;healthy sense of co-dependence,&#8221; your fusion, your current coefficient of borrowed functioning. What you must do is become that oddest of all creatures, the walking contradiction, the &#8220;Christian&#8221; pro-choicer.<p>Gird up your loins and esto vir!<p>Paruil<p>
ps. Faith, I'm a she, not a he [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Paruil ]</p>

Not to fan the fire but I wonder what people think about this? <p>http://elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>