It does make a convincing arguement. I will also weigh in with the fact that for a very long time the church did not prohibit abortion totally and only did so after the pregnancy had reached "quickening"(old fashioned term for when you could feel the baby moving around) terminating a pregnancy up until then was perfectly fine.
This information was from a book entitled "Rethinking Life and Death", I don't have it readily available right now but it outlined why the change occurred(it was a political decision) and also why it's status changed in this country.(Before women won the right to vote abortions were routinely performed by doctors)

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

zzzzz

*looks up at Ezra-whatchamacallits* Dude, that's weak.<p>
Anyway, my own personal opinions aside(purposefully not posted here as I don't believe logical discussion should always be slanted by one's emotional reactions) I think when it comes down to it the line will always end up being drawn by personal moral and ethical constructs. In the case of abortion every religion has it's own take(or none at all) on the subject and living in a country that is not a theocracy demands that it remain a medical decision between the woman, her partner and her doctor. <p> I do also think it bears some looking at that reproductive laws have become more volitile as women have gained more and more power, both financially and politically. To control the womb is to control the fate of women, I believe the religious leaders in charge understand this very well. Women are much more "tractable" when tied by pregnancy and child rearing. If you look at the organizations that preach the staunchest anti-abortion(as well as anti-contraception) retoric(sp?) you will also find mandates about the woman submitting to the man. The two ideologies go hand in hand and with very good reason.<p> I think many prolifers forget that we are not all Christian and do not have to be forced to practice their beliefs. Yes, my own faith demands I get through life doing as little harm as I can but not everyone follows my path and I respect that. I truly wish they could do the same.<p>*rambling because I'm bored at work. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] *<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

I remember Cali's reply to the "elroy" link in an earlier post...<p>"It took me awhile to get 'it' as I read through the sight... but one of the 'letters' advocated divorce and applauded the man's new life..."
...clearly... the advocate of the disruption/distruction of "life" has spoken!<p>Anyone can put together a web page...
...putting content to advocate infidelity... abortion...
...seems to have come into vogue!<p>To see sites that offer the view of life...
...check out...<p>http://www.lifeissues.net/headlines.php?topic=ab<p>http://www.cwfa.org/library/life/2002-01-21_pr_roe-v-wade.shtml<p>http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1378/partial.htm<p>http://tennesseerighttolife.org/human_life_issues/human_life_issues_abortion_lies_and_myths.htm<p>http://www.prolifeinfo.org/fact009.html<p>http://www.cwfa.org/library/life/1999-12_pp_a-lies.shtml
<p>Stand for what is right...
It may mean that you may end up becoming the enemy of your W (or H)... of mother ...of father ...brother or ...sister!
Still.. love your enemies!<p>To stand by a wrong decision... (not the person...) but the decision is weakness... acceptance that what society has deemed to be right... is weak!<p>I pray for your strength...
Strength comes in doing what is right...
...no matter how many laws say it's OK
...no matter how many "politically correct" groups pat you on the back
...no matter how many names you are called
...no matter how much your intelligence is questioned
...no matter what.<p>If your W has the abortion...
... (and in the end she will have the final say... all can choose to do wrong... no matter what we would have them do/consider)...
...by saying "I'll stand by your decision"... the marriage is lost (I firmly believe this)!<p>If she can't meet the (emotional... and more basic) needs of the life she carries...
...she will never be able to meet the far more complex needs of a husband or... future husband! Not until she realizes the severity of her perspective action!<p>Don't listen to the segment of society that asks... "what is IS?"...
Stand strong...
...it's the only way your W will have respect for you!<p>I will gladly take the brunt of attacks from the pro-abortion group...
...I'll start a thread later this evening.<p>You... take your time... reflect... meditate... contemplate...
God loves every sinner...
...but snubbing your nose at God....
...and then blaming the influence of society for falling into murder...
...can break a spirit
...will break a life!<p>Think of life...
Act with life...
Pray for life!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: NSR ]</p>

deleted<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

WAT,<p> Well spoken. <p> No matter how badly some would like to make this decision for you and your W. In the end NO ONE can, except your W. <p> I too am very passionate on this subject, but I won't go there. I will say that "to a person", the people who have responded have done so out of a caring soul. They have all seen the pain of your post. Each one wants to help you through this to the best of their ability.<p> I would ask that you realize this is so and not be swayed into begrudging some of them, the advice they give. <p> jd

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Paruil<p>ps. Faith, I'm a she, not a he [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm sooooo sorry!!! I have no idea why I assumed you were a he.<p><Now where did I lose those gender-vision glasses so I can avoid this faux-pas in the future> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Dear Follower,<p>Here is another option. It is called a rescue. <p>A father can rescue his helpless baby from the jaws of death. The father lays down his OWN life to spare the life of his child. He shows radical love and courage by peaceful physical resistance to the abortion. <p>He may call his lawyer and determine the legal extent to which he may attempt tp stop the abortion. May he physically block her access? May he refuse to allow the use of his telephone or his money or his car for the appointment? May he stand in her way? May he lay on the cold, hard concrete driveway in front of his wife's car? What if she runs over him? What will happen if he gets arrested for blocking her access? She is still free to leave by foot.

He may petition the help of others. He may call the mayor. He may emergently contact his congressman to request legislation. <p>He may not hurt her or assault her in any way. The final choice, indeed is his wife's, but he does not have to support his wife's choice to exterminate Ezekial or Ezra's right to life.<p>The father may lay down his life for his beloved wife and child.<p>[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Voice of Reason ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I asked my W "why?". She feels that "NOW" just isn't the time. She "does" want another, but after having a house of our own (we are currently renting). She feels that she will be ready for another one when we are more "stable".<hr></blockquote><p>This is quite a thread, Follower! After reading the posts, I found myself wondering "now what was follower's W's reasons for wanting an abortion?" Have you discussed what would satisfy her need for stability? She's had two already and seems interested in a third "someday." What would she have on that "someday" that she doesn't have now?

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

You have e-mail [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

...hiccup...

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pearls b4 Swine ]</p>

I believe the best way to persuade your wife would be to sit down and have the most serious "heart to heart" that you've ever had. Explain to her your fear of being able to live with this decision for the rest of your life as well as her own ability to live with it. Let her know that this is a decision she can and probably will make BUT you will have to live with the decision that she does make. I know you will have to live with the decision if she keeps the child as well, BUT there will be so many blessings and so much love to come with that decision.<p>I have seen so many instances where an unplanned or suprise child becomes SOOOO special to the parents. <p>Regrets can be forever and a decision like this is forever. <p>Blessings and love outweigh regrets any way you look at it. Point that out to your wife.<p>KINDNESS, PEACE, AND LOVE<p>P.S. I know from experience that if you continue to show your SD that you love her, it will work. Don't let her decide what your behaviors are. You decide how you want to behave and act towards her and DO IT. It's hard, but it can be done. Please (at her young age) get her some counselling. There are probably counsellors available at school that could help her. <p>Is her father in the picture?

I know what I'm going to say may be harsh and not very MB but considering that you beleive that abortion is murder in the eyes of God and that your wife is hellbent on having one, there is no other alternative.<p>LEAVE YOUR WIFE. <p>But don't issue an ultimatum to her as a way to blackmail her into doing what you think as the right thing because that is also morally wrong. God doesn't interfere with your free will and neither should you with your wife's free will.<p>She's told you that the reason why she doesn't want the responsability of motherhood at this time is because of your financial situation. This is a valid point but SHE STILL HAS ANOTHER CHOICE AND IT'S CALLED 'GIVING UP THE CHILD UP FOR ADOPTION'.<p>I too beleive that the choice is ultimately in the woman's hands but YOU ALSO HAVE A CHOICE.<p>Good luck and God bless.<p>Joe<p>[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

I haven't read all of the responses you've gotten here, but I just want to say to your post...
PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS ABORTION HAPPEN!! <p>Maybe your pastor can intervene here to confront your wife's attitude, wake her up to her moral responsibility, and save this precious unborn life! Preventing sin (abortion/murder)now, is far better than how you and W both will be struggling like mad to recover afterward. Abortion will not fix anything in your lives...it will only make more problems. <p>You should let her know, that even if you two divorce, you will take your fair share of responsibility for the baby too. This child, like all others, is a blessing, not a curse!!! God said so!! We must believe that.<p>I do not believe this happened by accident...God wanted this child in the world through you two. God allowed this conception for His higher glory and purposes!! Please be strong here, and don't let the murder happen!! <p>She needs Godly women who will support her through this pregnancy and help her find the blessing in all of this. Can you call a Christian Pro-life group who might have a counselor to work with her too?? And like I said, get your pastor involved to confront this BEFORE the sin happens!!!!!!!!!<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

Follower,
After being unavailable to the boards for a week, this may come too late.<p>Despite some of the posters here, you have been given some good advice. I won&#8217;t say what I would do, as I am not in your shoes. I firmly believe that NO ONE ever really could say for a fact that they would do this or that until they have BEEN THERE!!!!. That being said, the ones that have been there could add some insight, but your situation is still your own. I could say what I would do, but that wouldn&#8217;t help you anyway, so I won&#8217;t.
Ultimately and unfortunately, your wife has the sole choice and therefore the ultimate irrevocable responsibility for the decision. You can only state your case, pray, and hope she makes the right decision. There may be valid concerns for abortions, but the one you said she has given seems very weak in itself.<p>Someone posted if you can&#8217;t enthusiastically agree then &#8220;support&#8221; her decision to get the abortion. This is really preposterous!!! According to your own words at the first posting, this would totally contradict what you believe. If you go ahead with this, (saying you support it when you really don&#8217;t) then you will have to live and deal with the ramifications of that decision for the rest of your life. It is certainly not being true to yourself. Aren&#8217;t we all having difficulty because our spouses haven&#8217;t been &#8220;true&#8221; to us? How then, can we live with ourselves if we cannot be true to ourselves? This I cannot fanthom. Yes, we all make mistakes, but you will have had at least a week to think about this and state your case. I&#8217;m not going to say you will &#8220;win&#8221; your case, but if that is how you truly feel, burying your thoughts and feelings to temporarily &#8220;pseudo-support&#8221; your wife is going to eventually leave you in a pit of despair. Its difficult enough to climb out of it the first time.<p>Whatever your wife decides, she will also have to deal with the ramifications and CONSEQUENCES of her action. Yes, God forgives, but we still are ultimately held accountable for our decisions and actions, and there are still consequences, whether they show up early or late. <p>
Is there such a thing as some kind of non-judgemental support group that any one has heard of? Where individuals can talk about their abortions without having to be made to feel that they totally blew it? Do any churches do this? Once the abortion is made, its made. We can&#8217;t change that and people have to find a way to alleviate and deal with the feelings that go with whatever decision is made. I don&#8217;t mean this to say to &#8220;approve&#8221; of the possible abortion, but to talk extensively with those who have gone through this. Both those that decided to abort and then aborted the abortion (changed their mind at the last minute) and those who have also indeed gone on with the abortion and how it has mattered thereafter. I don&#8217;t suppose a lot of real people (aka not anonymous) would be willing to come forward and discuss this though. If this were possible, then at least many avenues would have been searched to help her at least feel that she made the best decision not soley based on her &#8220;feelings&#8221;. <p> Everyone here knows that &#8220;feelings&#8221; can turn around and bite you in the [censored] at a later time, and when you get out of the fogg, you wonder where the h*ll your head was at the time you made those decisions based on your feelings. <p>I see time as an added pressure here and many people don&#8217;t make wise decisions under that type of pressure.<p>I feel for you both. It&#8217;s a difficult decision, and one that is irrevocable. You are also in our prayers.
There is no dancing around this issue to be politically correct. Once the decision is made, and acted out, that's it. Its not something you can take back, unless she is one of those people who get off the table at the last second. (I have known one of those people). Please let us know what the ultimate decision is.<p>Mikkey<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mikkey ]</p>

I pray for continued healing for you and your W. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When you need it... read about Post-abortion Realities:<p>There are many resources for those who suffer from abortion. Call 1-800-5-WE-CARE, the National Office of Post-abortion Reconciliation and Healing<p>Check out the ministry of <a href="http://www.rachelsvineyard.org" target="_blank">Rachel's
Vineyard</a>... and "Vine and Branches", the monthly E-newsletter of Rachel's Vineyard.<p>The idea that abortion solves problems is a deception and illusion. The reality is that it solves nothing and brings a host of problems of its own.<p>Through the links below you'll have an ever-increasing understanding of some of those problems, and some of the help available to bring hope and healing.<p>Nobody knows exactly how many women suffer the after-effects of abortion. What is clear, however, is that the more one searches, the more one finds. More research is necessary in order to bring the public the most reliable information on this critical issue of women's health.<p>Some complications of abortion flow from the inherent dangers of the procedure itself. Others come from the carelessness and callousness with which it is carried out. Some women never survive a legal abortion.<p>If all the abortions in our world stopped tomorrow, the task of healing will have only begun, and will go one for decades.<p>See the website of the Elliott Institute, which provides research and testimonies on the aftereffects of abortion and explores various psychological and physical complications. Likewise, read an interview conducted with
Dr. David Reardon. With his permission, he makes available the monthly newsletter of the Elliott Institute, which provides the latest reports on ground-breaking research about the negative effects of abortion.<p>Other sites which speak of the connection between abortion and breast cancer, including that of Dr. Joel Brind. <p>Also, read about the potential legal liability of abortion providers who do not inform women about the prospect of increased risk for breast cancer following an induced abortion:www.johnkindley.com.<p><a href="http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/columns2001/01-12-03forbiddengrief.htm" target="_blank">Forbidden
Grief</a><p>The Rachel's Vineyard website contains a schedule of retreats for Post-Abortion individuals<p>Finding Hope After Abortion<p>Abortion, A Choice Against Women<p>A Brief Summary of Post-Abortion Distress<p>Testimonies of Women who have had Abortions<p>Testimonies of Men who have had Abortions<p> "Her Choice" Post-Abortion Awareness Campaign<p>Repentance and God's Forgiveness after Abortion<p>Inspiringly... visit the website of the National Memorial for the Unborn. The National Memorial for the Unborn, in Chattanooga, Tennessee, used to be an abortion facility. Now it is dedicated to the memory of those who have been killed by abortion. Moms, Dads, and other family members of aborted babies can contact the memorial and have a plaque put up on the wall there, with an inscription in honor of the child.<p>A similar shrine now also exists at the Church of the Holy Innocents, 128 West 37th Street, in New York City. This Shrine of the Holy Innocents, at which names of aborted children may be enrolled, is a simple but remarkable haven of comfort in the midst of a city filled with abortion chambers.<p>Former Abortion Providers<p>Survivors of Abortion<p>and last but not least... Blackmun Wall.<p>Let the Divine Mercy be yours.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: NSR ]</p>