I have been following your posts recently regarding the children.....<p>As you may remember, this is a HUGE issue for me.
You are both correct in your interpretation of the issues....and I can understand where both of you are coming from.<p>All 3 of our X's (mine still a stbz!) are dealing with their own personal crises, I do not really believe that any of this was really about a good or bad marriage. I do not think that was the issue in our cases. Rather they are all acting out their rebellion against their mother or father and see us as such, especially as we did not go along with indulging their infidelity or other difficult behaviour. IN NEllies case you have been very kind and understanding, which just enraged your X further as you did not react in a manner expected.<p>I am not in the mental health field, but I have had to take drastic steps recently with my 18 year old. Now he has always had issues of lack of academic achievement and self esteem. Since separation he has floundered and his problems were compounded. This resulted in a full professional profile....identity problems, BPD....identified by behaviours now also manifested by his 48 year old father since he took up with this OW.<p>So my take on this is, in all 3 cases our spouses see us as the difficult parent, only because they have lost control of their lives. They probably all have mental issues which require professional help, but instead play the victim in all this and vilify us to justify why they are OK and try to make us appear non functional.<p>It is this that seems to enrage you, Wifft and myself as well, in that it totally undermines the parental relationship we have with our children. Why should our children have parents who make them take responsibility....it is not as nice as fun and blaming others. Of course this is not enough, any parenting is destroyed, there are no more certainties in terms of values, morals, religious traditions.....namely because if they (parents) are not sure anymore who they are or what they want, then how can they model this, and when the other parent continues down the same path as usual, instilling the previous shared values etc, they are so hell bent on destroying this in their children, because if they no longer have this, why should their children?.....i.e. a parent who cares and does not walk away from the onerous responsibilities.<p>So in my case and WIFTT, trying to teach our children right from wrong....how a parent acts, flies in the face of the existing behaviour, and further enrages them.
Add this all to the divorce equation and the kids are a mess. Who are the children supposed to model their behviour on? how are they supposed to know a better way for their own future.<p>Add to this that each time one tries to set behavioural boundaries in a generic sense, it comes back to "dad bashing" i.e. that specific behaviour is inappropriate . How then can a child learn that that behaviour towards another human being is not OK? How can a child learn that to keep on making the same rotten choices does not work?
How does a child learn about relationships in the future?<p>I can understand why some non-custodial parents walk away from their kids in a situation such as this......as it does aleviate the confusion regarding the children's own identity.<p>But if I say and do nothing to my children am I not walking away from my parental responsibilities?
Am I not neglecting my children?
Do they not have a right to know how to stay safe?
Even if this is all 100% contrary to the message and "parenting" they get when at dad, am I supposed to keep quiet and then deal with each and every crisis as has been the pattern, as no one else will? <p>Nellie, from what I understand, in your case your H walked out on his responsibilities towards his kids and has minimal contact. While this is very damaging to the kids, and yes they will have to deal with ALL their father did...adultery, abandonment, impoverishment etc, they are still taking all their parental advice from you,and your H is not interested enough or caring enough about his kids (at this point in time) to make the necessary effort to add confusion to the mix....so while your children will have to deal with that in the future, they do not have to really deal with the polarity of values and therefore no longer know which way is up.......<p>This is just all my understanding.....!!!!!!?????

Willbok,<p>My H does have fairly little contact with the kids, and only rarely talks to them about anything other than surface stuff. My younger kids are for the most part scared to say anything that could make him angry, because they are afraid that he will stop loving them. <p>I should probably just ignore Wiffty's posts, because his authoritarian parenting style is so diametrically opposed to my own. There are very few non-remorseful betrayers whom I feel sorry for - but for some reason his diatribes against his wife, and what comes across as his excessive pride in his own abilities makes her an exception.

Nellie,
I thank you for your reply.
I do disagree with your description of WIFtt. That was one of my points...which I did not express too well.
When the children are exposed to boundryless behaviour, with no direction, the other parent has to impose (somehow) a sense of responsibility and consequences etc. This is doubly difficult, especially when the other parent undermines any and all parenting anyway, so discounts whet the "parent" is doing. It is like lets all gang up against the one parent....kids as well as the other parent. After all rules do not apply to us, instant gratification is owed us and no one is allowed to say no to us.<p>I think, despite Wiftt rater autocratic style in your opinion, that is what he is up against. I know this has been my life for over 3 years, and frankly I am tired of all this,but I cannot walk away from still trying to instill some values into my children.<p>As I wrote, your XH walked out on his kids in all ways. When they do not walk out but truly and honestly believe that they are better parents(and please understand, I do not mean parenting with a different style...because in my book that is truly OK) and talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk, then the "parent" who truly parents is left with a horrendous mess to continually clean up.<p>One cannot continue to parent more "laissez faire" under these circumstances.<p>Boundaries have to become very firm so the children understand the issues.....but they do interpret this as against the other parent.<p>Could you tolerate drug use in your home?
Could you tolerate underage drinking and drunkeness?
Could you watch your child disintegrate to a state of non functionality and state in public,never mind in private after pulling the child into his home to prove he is a better parent" I have invested enough energy into this child , he is on his own and can sink or swim because it is my time.." and then offering the kid destructive choices based on hedonism and buying his love?<p>IN other words the messages given to the child are contradictory and confusing.<p>Could you sit by and do nothing....I cannot and did not,despite the fact that my son does not like me. Parenting is not about whether or not your child likes you or not, as a parent one has to do things for your children that they will not like. Soshould one not do them?<p>It is bizarre to say the least....but I can say that after 3 years of this 2 kids are doing much better, one is in the process of getting the very intensive help he needs and one has destroyed many relationships that he is in need of help,but as an adult now, believes he is fine.....and there is nothing I can do as long as his father reinforces that I am the source of all this, which simply perpetuates my son not taking responsibility for his part in his relationship problems,but more importantly getting the professional help he so desperately needs,which I have suggested to him is vital ....and he is told your mother is crazy!<p>[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: willbok99 ]</p>

well said WILLBOK,<p>and i have told the kids, i do not sign up for this parenting job as a popularity contest. . .<p>so they know. . . . it will be interesting to see how 13 yo son's first year of school will go at X's school, now that son has been accepted. . . <p>what will happen if he gets in trouble? how will she act? this one will be interesting. . . . <p>when my dad took me on my first work program in college, he met with the head of the company, so to speak, and told him, "don't be easy on my son."<p>i have met several wives whose H were very tough on their male kids, and the wives were rather horrified at the time, and opted to stay out of it. . . both families have very nice, very well respected children, one who has just gotten married, and the other who is entering HS. . . <p>i have seen kids whose parents are very laissez faire, and the kids never grow up out of adolescent behavior. . . they also never do much with the kids. . . but they give them alot of stuff. . . . my X loves stuff, as does her family. . . my family loved experiences, not much stuff, but i have a wealth of experiences. . . <p>these are the activities that self esteem is based upon, working through to success, putting in the effort to try, to fail and to learn to get back up again. . . there are problem solving skills to be learned. . . however, if your primary parent is a conflict avoider, and only wants to be needed, how does one learn the lessons of life by doing them, by facing and overcoming being knocked down. . . .<p>these are the lessons that my X is NOT teaching our kids, but are sheltering them from experiencing them. . . which will result in leaving home with little sense of direction and self responsibility. . . .<p>when my kids continually says, its not my fault, but it was his clothes that he left behind, and were subsequently stolen, when does the child learn? how does the child learn?<p>willbok expressed it correctly, i will not give up until he has left to live on his own. . . the unfortunate part is that i will never be able to afford a house in the town where i used to live, near the school, unless there is some jackpot in the future. . . which is a total longshot and i don't buy lottery tickets. . . .<p>so he will never have a reasonable choice to decide to live with me. . . and learn about being responsible. . . <p>nice job willbok. . . .
wiftty

Willbok,<p>I have not been convinced, based on Wiffty's posts, that his wife's parenting has been "boundaryless" - it generally seems to me that her parenting style is just very different from his. <p>It is possible to be very involved in your kids lives without being authoritarian. My kids can be argumentative and stubborn (can't imagine where they got that from [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) but they are very responsible. Fortunately, I have not had to deal with drinking or drug issues, and I am sure that would be terribly difficult. Part of the reason that they have avoided these issues may be just luck, but part, I believe, is because excessively compliant behavior, either with authority or with peers, has never been demanded or expected.<p>I think the most important thing is to stay involved with what the kids are doing - that is far more important than any particular parenting style. And, unfortunately, far too many good parents have kids who end up in trouble anyway. Of course, I think the public school environment (and that in most private schools) is in general very harmful for kids, but I won't even get into that.

Nellie and Tom,
Thank you for your replies.<p>First, to reply to Tom:
Congratulations on your son getting into the school. Ihope that this is the right place for him,and that you take it on a year by year basis,rather than accepting it that he will graduate fromthis school.<p>Another problem is "but they give them alot of stuff. . . . my X loves stuff, as does her family. . . my family loved experiences, not much stuff, but i have a wealth of experiences. . ."
The rampant materialism in our continent has left many adults never mind children very confused.
IfI get things I must be loved by the person who gives it to me....they must like me and care for me....ergo if I don't get what I want, then the love and care is not there. <p>I have had a hard job teaching my kids that they have a false sense of entitlement. I owe them their materialistic needs,but it is my choice to provide their wants. I am fortunate in that I can provide to the same level as their father....but he will provide no needs, only the wants after I have taken care of the needs and refuse to provide the wants for whatever reason. What message does this give children? Manipulation and control over parents and emeshment with adolescent behaviour. <p>Unfortunately due to the kids behaviour, I question whether I sould provide anything other than basic needs.....and this includes all the experiences I am able to provide,which their father has not.<p>And now to reply to Nellie:<p>Whether Tom is too authoritarian or not, is not the issue. What I see as important is that he is NOT abdicating responsibility as a parent. He does not need his children to validate who he is, as I do not, as you do not. We all seem to know who we are and what our strengths and weaknesses are, but his x and my H NEED their children ....to use them as possessions or to befriend in appropriately My children are confused as to the parental vs friend relationship offered by their parents.<p>In answer to your response
"Part of the reason that they have avoided these issues may be just luck, but part, I believe, is because excessively compliant behavior, either with authority or with peers, has never been demanded or expected."
I have not demanded this either...and my children would not have given this in the first place. In any case 2 have special needs so normal compliant behaviour was always difficult to achieve and a struggle. <p>"I think the most important thing is to stay involved with what the kids are doing - that is far more important than any particular parenting style."
Actually I have always known more about my kids lives that most parents I know....even if they did not tell me, I guessed or found out. I have never been naive about my children, and until recently they told me too much about their own lives.<p>While I cannot be sure,my kids started using around the same time as their dad took up with OW and he uses as well with his young thing (I have written evidence)....after all if dad a ghis girlfriend did,who is mom to suggest it is not what we should be doing.<p>So Nellie and Tom,I have no answers really in how to prevent all this. I only know little more what it is all about now....<p>
And yes the frustration continues on a continual basis for me. It will end for me when the youngest has left home. For my kids it will never stop.<p>The other point is that for me, is that with all this going on, every time I move forward in my life, something happens with one or another kid to suck me right back into the insanity....
go figure.<p>So Nellie, believe me, my heart goes out to you in your struggles financially for your children in the here and now, but your kids are mentally better off than if their father truly decided to undermine all you do as a parent . They will have to deal with huge issues later in life,but at present are not confused.<p>I believe Tom's and my children will not have to deal with quite the same sort of abandonment issues,but they have to deal with who they are and what they stand for. Of course they also trust no-one!<p>And this is a result of one parents personal crisis!!!! <p>Happy Easter to you both and your children