Wiffty,<p>Peace and Respect between the sexes, my friend! Thanks for the tune-up! Do you tighten loose screws?

Wow, I love this assumption that it's only men that want "sex on demand". Personally, as a woman I want "sex on demand" with my partner and BC pills are the way to go. They also lessen the risk of endometreosis, ovarian cancer and ovarian cysts, regulate and lessen menstrual flow. <p>I'm not a hardline Christian and wouldn't take the Pope's advice on anything sexual. After all, I wouldn't go to a mechanic that never owned a car.<p>I just get very annoyed at the assumption that everything sexual in the relationship must be because of the man's wants and desires. Maybe there's a big age difference between myself and many of the female posters here but I can't imagine a relationship like that. <p>VoR, I still think NFP is a good way to get pregnant. That you're on baby #5 reiterates that. My SO's parents used NFP too and he's child 5 of 7 and no they did not want a huge family. Sorry but as birth control it seems to lack reliability.<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

Voice of Reason,<p>
I am sure glad that someone out there is able to find humor in my sexual depravation, quite frankly if I don&#8217;t joke about it, I&#8217;ll probably cry about it.<p>&#8220;&#8221;are you for real?&#8221;&#8221;<p>Maybe, Maybe Not: pick from the following options:<p>A. I&#8217;m really a 43yo man from Iowa who is currently spending time in the state prison for having sexual relations with small farm animals, out of season.<p>B. I&#8217;m really a 31yo Christian family man from Kansas who has been totally honest about myself on this board for the last year.<p>&#8220;&#8221;Do you date?&#8221;&#8221;<p>Seriously now, I&#8217;ve been on one kinda sorta almost well maybe date in the 9 months since I&#8217;ve been divorced. I have three angelic daughters who I have focused all my attention, nurturing, and love upon to help them through the death of an American family. I was planning on dating, heck even had a woman that wanted to go out, but some things happened with my daughters that showed that they weren&#8217;t ready for daddy to date, of course it&#8217;s OK for mommy to shack up with the OM. Due to the fact that the woman that I wanted to date has children that go to school with mine and my decision to do any dating very discretely at this point, it is easier just not to think about it. If someone came along that would be great but I&#8217;m not actively looking.

..
[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
[QB]VoR, I still think NFP is a good way to get pregnant. That you're on baby #5 reiterates that. My SO's parents used NFP too and he's child 5 of 7 and no they did not want a huge family. Sorry but as birth control it seems to lack reliability.<p>QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Nduli2,<p>Thanks for chiming in... Women are good sexual initiators, too. I know I was. It's just that infant-care is an extremely demanding female time sapper... Literally every single minute, until/if they fall asleep.

So often I wanted to make love; but the little critters just wouldn't fall asleep, or started crying, or needed to be nursed, or got hurt... You get the picture! Hey, natural birth control-- Competing Baby Busyness! <p> Every parent can relate to this...<p>Finally get baby asleep...sigh...tiptoe away...hurry and get buck naked before he wakes up... rushed foreplay... heavy breathing and big pupils...smiles of joy... just start [you fill in the rest]...WAAAAAHHHH! Oh no... WAAAAHHHHHH! baby's awake...SH*T... Mom runs and tries to get baby back to sleep... H loses his ere***** and drums fingers waiting... OK, W is back... start over... Rushed foreplay... heavy breathing... WAAAAHHHH! WAAAAHHH!... DA**-IT... Mom runs and tries to get baby back to sleep... OK, W is back... H is snoring.... WAAAAHHH!...I give up...I love you, Hun...Kiss, kiss... See ya next week. Two ships passing in the nursery...<p>Fed up with mundane wife & kids, WH went and found an UNENCUMBERED "sterilized sex-on-tap pressure-reliever X-fantasy" alone in a nearby "love shack". No pesky kids, no dirty dishes, no fear of pregnancy, no committment, no love...<p>That we are on baby #5 shows the EFFECTIVENESS of the Sympto-Thermal Method! EACH pregnancy was desired and PLANNED! It was 100% reliable! <p>STM was 100% effective for us the 10 years we used it! When we wanted a baby, we STOPPED using it so we could ACHIEVE the desired pregnancy! <p>I know it may be hard to believe... but, we really wanted a large family! We wanted all five of our progeny. I would LOVE to have MORE children! Lots more...! <p> I would feel happpy to have a bustling household with ten children spanning the years! College-kids graduating with honors, high-schoolers learning to drive, pre-teens in braces, skinny fifth-graders shooting hoops all day, muddy 6-year-olds digging in the dirt, angelic pre-schoolers learning their ABC's, nursing toddlers on the go, and tiny newborns with rose-petal skin! <p>Each child was God's BLESSING! What reward! That's a Life! A family life! That's maternal bliss! That's a father's pride and joy! More kids equals more LOVE! More people to give love; more people to receive love; more lovin' to go 'round.<p>Good old-fashioned sexual marital love and lotsa' babies to boot! Now that's livin'!<p>I know, I'm sick... We were on a roll.. Too bad WH got sick, gave up, and dove into the dark addiction pit! But, he still loves his kids!<p>
QQ What scientific method of NFP did your SO's parents use so unsuccessfully? Was it the old "Model-A", "wrong-way rhythm" version no longer in use today? Modern STM and OM are the newer model "BMW's", and are statistically documented at 99% effectiveness rates in avoiding pregnancy, with NO side effects or health risks.<p> The current SUCCESS of systematic NFP methods has been developed based on large population studies in peer-reviewed medical journals. <p>Medical physicians, epidemiologists, pharmacists, nurses, and married couples, among others, "give advice" on MODERN NFP today at Family Planning Institues, University OB/GYN Departments, and International Health Organizations here, abroad, and in third-world countries. <p> Many professionals, having used it themselves, know it works. A valid bona fide reproductive choice!<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Voice of Reason ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong>Voice of Reason,<p>&#8220;&#8221;are you for real?&#8221;&#8221;<p>Maybe, Maybe Not: pick from the following options:<p>A. I&#8217;m really a 43yo man from Iowa who is currently spending time in the state prison for having sexual relations with small farm animals, out of season.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lost Husband,<p>Uh oh... This is a mean trick... You are my WH!
I knew it was too good to be true... Who are you, really? I hoped you were answer B. Who am I if you are A.? Where is my anti-psychotic medication? I'm starting to get that unreality feeling again.. Truth is stranger than fiction with my WH!<p>Let's keep laughing, it is a good coping medicine! And no side effects or health risks!<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Voice of Reason ]</p>

VoR, the way you are so glib and hateful towards your H is very disconcerting. I can understand the vitrol due to your situation but you seem to be looking at everything from a very one sided and narrow veiwpoint. Did you and your H agree to having a large family? Did both of you understand the time constraints and financial problems associated with it?
I assume your a stay at home mom, which is great I think someone needs to be at home up until the point the children begin full time school but that means your H was the sole person responsible for feeding all those mouths, keeping a roof over your heads and shoes on your feet. Do you suppose that there's more to his leaving than just easily available sex?
Men often define themselves by their ability to provide and by the work that they do. Feeding six people on one income is difficult to near impossible without making you live in near poverty. Did you ever ask him how these pressures effected him?
I know looking at it from my perspective(and I'm not 100% percent convinced that this is all for real) I could see how a man would first turn to sex as an outlet for the frustrations and fears of raising a large family and doing so with someone who seems so very inflexiable in their thinking and idealogy. You seem hell bent on having as huge a brood as possible, that might be scaring him to death and the OW is an escape from what seems to him a desperate and frightening situation.
Women ofen forget that men are human too, they have weaknesses and moments of frailty like every other human. You seem very harsh and unwilling to compromise(at least your posts portray that, in person may be different)to someone faced with such a huge burden staying seems like being trapped.
Do you see what I'm getting at or are you going to stick with the he's a pig line? Have you allowed your H to have "reproductive choices" in your marriage or is it your way or the highway? MB is about couples learning the give and take dance and doing so in a way that allows each partner to get fulfillment from their relationships. From your answers here I see very little hope that you will come to understand the concepts or embrace them.
Also remember that this is not a Christian board and so we all do not come with your idealogy.
One other thing, why do you refer to your children as critters? This also suggests a very glib attitude towards the gravity of bearing children and I don't just mean in the physical sense.
VoR, you really need to go and take a look at the Harely concepts and maybe start applying them to your marriage, there may be a chance to salvage it yet but degrading your H by calling him no better than an animal is not the way to go.<p>Oh and before you think I don't know the pain of abandonment, I was left by my H for a very young woman. I still don't think he's a piece of crap, merely a human with poor coping skills and a lot of issues to delve into. You have to come to a place of peace about this, you know?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Voice of Reason:
<strong>Good, you confirmed the normal male sex drive "pressure" and intrusive mind images Q 24-48 hours WH kept talking about. Is this really how it is for you guys? Please explain this phenomena more-- maybe us ignorant women will be more understanding of it.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Some related discussion may be found in the gutted Trying Plan A...I also need sex thread. Bottom line: I believe that some outlet for the relief of sexual frustration is necessary, but it does not necessarily have to be intercourse.<p>My impression is that strict Roman Catholic teaching about what is sexually permissible may be dangerously limiting, since it puts many men in an impossible situation. When every option open to me is considered to be a sin (even doing nothing, since that results in arguably "lustful" - and therefore sinful - thoughts), why shouldn't I pick the option which is "most fun"? After all, I'm d***ed anyway.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>But sex relations only every six weeks? Was that your choice?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No, it was not my choice. My wife is sexually anorexic. Severely so. But I did not consider the infrequency to be that big of a problem. If the truth be told, I kind of liked the suspense of not knowing how far I might get when I started making overtures. It made the rare successes all the sweeter.<p>"Sex on demand" sounds boring by comparison.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>You are scary when you say that withholding sex can be sexual abuse. I never, not once, withheld sex to punish or abuse H. I protected my health and life against harm. A woman exercising her reproductive choice of self-determination. Sometimes I delayed til the next available day/time, if I already had plans, too tired, etc. <p>When does withholding sex become sexual abuse?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I do not know.<p>I am still wrestling with the concept of "abuse" in general. I have come to suspect that the concept itself is often abused, much like the concept of co-dependency.<p>After reading material provided by such people as Patricia Evans, it wouldn't require much creativity in my thinking for me to conclude that my wife abused me. I had similar symptoms to those of abuse victims, including the "walking on eggshells" feeling and the inability to make sense out of a relationship in which the parameters were constantly changed.<p>But how would such a conclusion be "useful" to me? Especially since I never got the sense that my wife was trying to punish me or assert her power over me. I don't think she ever tried to put me down.<p>So I really don't know what to think about all this. I just believe that it's better to try to see things from more than one perspective.

Nduli2,,<p>Thanks for your long post... I am mad at you.<p>Are you a Natural Family Planning User? I came to MB's and started a thread called, "Any Natural Family Planning Users?" I want support from like-minded people who share the same religious beliefs about the lifestyle of Natural Family Planning in their struggling marriage.<p>I get the feeling that you are not an NFP user and that you are definitely not like-minded to this way of life.<p>If this is not a Christian Board, are Christians allowed here? What about angry, hurting, sarcastic, abused, Christians who want to vent so they don't Love Bust in person? <p>If you disapprove of the basic NFP way of life, why are you here on this post?<p>Both of us are free to pursue our own beliefs about such private matters. I respect your freedom to your beliefs. Do you respect my freedom? If you disagree with my religious beliefs then you don't need to read them. If you disapprove of them, then why post?<p>Are you willing to tolerate my diversity? I tolerate your diversity. I tolerate Christian, Fundamentalist, Jew, Muslim, atheist, free spirit New Age, black, white, hispanic, Birth Control users, and NFP users. <p>It is not a rigid ideology to be a devout anything. It is not rigid to be orthodox in one's profession of faith. What is rigid is the idea that people of faith are intolerable for adhering to their conscience.<p>I don't expect you or anyone to accept my beliefs. When I entered keywords: Christian Marriage Divorce, on my web search, I was led to Marriage Builders. Are you saying MB's is not open to Christians? Is MB's not welcome to Christians? <p> Marriage is a Christian institution. I got married in a Christian Church!
What an oxymoron if a conservative orthodox Christian can't be tolerated on a Marriage Board.<p>If a traditional Christian believer is unwelcome to express her religious marriage beliefs here on her own thread, then please let me know. Someone may have a misunderstanding.<p>Good discussion thrives on hearing the WIDE spectrum, INCLUSIVE of the far ends of the continuum. And, hearing out the affirmed positions of each.
________<p>Can I assume sincerity and goodwill on your part? I sure don't feel it. I feel you resent or despise my values about marriage & family. That is OK if you do, but it is not helpful for MB's stated purposes of mutual support, discussion, and healing for one to be put down for their religious values.<p>If you are sincere in support for me, that means tolerating my religious beliefs, too. You don't have to agree with them, but don't call ME inflexible and rigid because I do what the Lord of my religion expects of me.

I would never think of saying such a rude thing to a celibate, fasting Buddhist monk, or a Jew refusing to eat pork or work on the Sabbath:<p> "Your thinking is very inflexible and your ideology is rigid." That would deserve an apology on my part.
_________<p>My glib, hateful wording is a literary device called hyperbole, satire, or contrast exaggeration. I don't really mean it as true. I don't talk like that in person.

Degrading, vitriolic words like pig, critters, etc. are not meant literally. And, certainly not spoken to the real person. It is a temporary way to blow off steam so I don't kill anyone. I'd rather be called a snotty b*tch here, than wind up on death row for taking it out on a real person.
_________<p>All of the assumptions implied in your last questions about my WH and me are incorrect. If you want to help me be more open-minded, I will straighten out the facts for you in the next post.<p>Thanks, Voice

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

Why are you mad at me? Do I have any impact on what you chose to do? Getting angry is very counter-productive, I don't indulge so feel free to blast me at will if it makes you feel better, I'm made out of rock and can take it.<p> Now, what I was taking you to task on was your handling of this matter in regards to your marriage. Your faith has nothing to do with it. I don't care about your religious convictions.<p> What I wanted to know was did you speak to your H about his feelings and fears in regards to your life together. This is of the utmost importance, even entertwined with your faith as I believe the Christian faith values the husband and wife relationship over the parent/child relationship.<p> So, have you spoken to your husband honestly and openly about what is going on with him and why he chose to behave in the manner that he has. Yes, I do care, I wouldn't waste my time otherwise and if I wanted to flame I could so much stronger than you have seen. That was no flame but rather trying to get you to speak about the issues in your marriage that has brought you to this unhappy place.

NFP, is not the issue. It's a smokescreen hiding the real issues that has driven you and your H apart. Don't you feel it's important to address those more than rallying support for your contraceptive method? The posts here saying "you're right!" are not going to help you in this time of upheaval. Honest apraisal of the issues surrounding your marriage will. Undoubtly sexual issues contributed, but there's usually much more at hand than that.<p>Your posts have opened up that can of worms by putting it into the context of your marriage and it's deteriation.<p> I'm calling you rigid because you don't seem to want to talk about the real problem here, your marriage. The first post makes your H sounds like a complete and utter monster. But he can't be can he? You loved him enough to marry him and allow him to father your children after all.<p> So VoR, again I ask you aside from the first post which understandably was very angry(hey I've been there too) what else has been going on in your marriage and do you see any solutions to the problems. Have you read the MB site and the principles expoused and what do you think of them, do any of them apply to your situation?<p> Dialouge is important in the solution of every problem. You stating I make you angry does nothing and certainly doesn't effect me. However an open dialouge of what's hurting you and your H can help and at the very least allow you to find closure with what is undoubtly a painful situation.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
[QB] Now, what I was taking you to task on was your handling of this matter in regards to your marriage. <p> What I wanted to know was did you speak to your H about his feelings and fears in regards to your life together. So, have you spoken to your husband honestly and openly about what is going on with him and why he chose to behave in the manner that he has.

I'm calling you rigid because you don't seem to want to talk about the real problem here, your marriage. The first post makes your H sounds like a complete and utter monster. But he can't be can he? You loved him enough to marry him and allow him to father your children after all.
QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Nduli2,<p>We never got married. He lied to me to get me to marry him as deliberate cover for his horrifying underground addiction. He has a serious character disorder, is now in treatment, but the prognosis is grim. We have no direct contact, and our lives are totally destroyed.<p>These invalid so-called marriages are granted an annulment. <p>Yes, we discussed everything, even his feelings and fears. Yes, we prayed daily. Yes, he said he loved me every single day. Yes, he wanted everything, the big family, the whole nine yards. He lied about all of it, 24 hors a day, everyday for 17 years until I caught him in his secret life. He is still lying.<p>Do you believe me?<p>Yes, I loved the piece of him he showed me. And yes, I tried everything, including MB's.

I can't talk about the real problems in my marriage, because I was never married. My entire life for the past 17 years was fraudently stolen from me by a brilliant wealthy powerful con man. That is the real problem. He ran a completely double existence unknown to anyone but his victims. <p> I have myself and children to protect and restore to well-being. All I can do now is escape and grieve and try not to hurt anyone...<p>Oh, and I can cry out to God.<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: Voice of Reason ]</p>

JTW,<p>Don't mean to pressure you, but I've been waiting to hear. Any luck finding that book title? I checked on Amazon.com and there are 263 titles listed for A. Greeley. Theology of the Body is available there, too. Deal still on?<p>Do you believe in the Resurrection?

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justthewife ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong>
I just believe that it's better to try to see things from more than one perspective.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Gnome,<p>It is better to try to see things from more than one perspective, I agree wholeheartedly.<p>Where can we find the other perspectives unless we are willing to explore the treasury of other positions from diverse sources?<p>This conversation feels vaguely familiar... like Deja' vu.<p>I am reminded of an excellent book by Mark P. Shea, c 1996. Darn, I just can't think of the title. Something about...authority...Anyway, it's a good think & good read book; but on the other Hand, you might see it as too inflexible and rigid.

Voice of Reason said<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I feel you resent or despise my values about marriage & family. <hr></blockquote><p>even though you type with a large vocabulary, this sentence is a total mangling and abuse of the english language, never mind the emotional projection of your viewpoint onto another. . .<p>learn to use the english language properly, and you will prevent DR (Disrespectful Judgements) which can severely degrade one's relationship with ANYONE, not only a spouse. . . <p>ok, back to english 101. here is a brief list of feelings that ONLY you can have and only you can state for YOURSELF:<p>i feel ___________
fill in with:
exhausted, confused, ecstatic, guilty, suspicious,
angry, hysterical, frustrated, sad, confident,
embarrassed, happy, mischievous, dusgusted, frightened, enraged, asshamed, cautious, smug, depressed, overwhelmed, hopeful, lonely, lovestruck, jealous, bored, surprised, anxious, shocked, shy<p>so if I say:<p>I feel embarrassed. would you understand what i mean?<p>now if I say:<p> i feel you. would you understand what i am feeling?<p> NO! NOT! one can't feel you, and one can't feel that you either. . . . <p>so lets start with using the english language correctly, and stop with the emotional projection of your feelings onto someone else. . . . generally, that is typically used by a manipulative person, who is not in touch with their feelings, because they are putting them on someone else. . . to use them in a dishonest way.<p>now, do you understand what i have typed?<p>wiftty<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

Re: your original question-- yes, my first H and I tried Natural Planning, and of course I got pregnant. The man winked at me and I got pregnant.<p>My problem with this is that I *want* to believe that God will care for all the children that would come, but realistically, we could barely afford the ones we had.<p>I bet we would have had 12 kids in 20 years had we used Natural Family Planning.<p>Just my .02

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by justthewife:
<strong>
White Smoke : A Novel About the Next Papal Conclave
by Andrew M. Greeley</strong><hr></blockquote><p>JTW,<p>Thanks. I am taking the kids to the public library in the AM because our home is up for sale, and it's being shown then. I'll look for White Smoke.<p>The foreward to Theology of the Body (TOB) is an excellent overview of the magnificent vision of authentic marital love based on biblical revelation. It is a real eye-opener. Part One is profound: The Original Unity of Man and Woman. It is a teaching on the Book of Genesis.<p>To chat:<p>voiceofreason02@hotmail.com