FWIW..<p>Here's another..

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My D was final a year ago yesterday after a year of separation. My feelings of regret began to surface when my ex proposed the idea of separating so that "I might get a real taste of living with the OM," and hopefully the relationship would wither. He told me if we still loved eachother and were meant to be together, we'd see it 'in our eyes". Well, silly me...the tables turned. Months later I learned his proposition to separate was fueled by him meeting and falling in love with another woman he met on a business trip. At this point, I was emerging from my 'fog', and he was clearly in the midst of a dense one of his own. I begged him to reconcile...get counseling...anything. When I confronted him with the knowledge of his OW, he demanded a divorce. Neither of us ever had an opportunity to Plan A it. There was too much hurt and anger. His goal at this pint was to move one....without me.<p>I think this is what bothers me the most. Yes, I hurt him deeply, but I still loved that man and do to this day. He apparently didn't love me enough to fight for the marriage. Reading these boards I see countless women who've been hurt to their very core time and time again, yet who STILL want their husbands back and would do anything to re-establish that love. I wonder if its a male-female thing. I see far few men willing to forgive and move forward working on their marriages.<hr></blockquote><p>Maybe one of the reasons why men seem to throw in the towel with their M is because when a woman is the WS, she is so far gone emotionally from her H that it becomes a daunting task to try to do a reconciliation that can take years before the M becomes healthy again. Even though men who cheat on their W's do also tend to fall in love with the OW, they tend to be an A's mostly based on lust rather than love, and thus easier to come out off. Women who are the betrayed spouses seem to understand this and know that when the honeymoon period ends in their H's As that their H's are more likely to return to the M. And to top this all off add that many of us men do have much more fragile ego's than women and an A hurts our manhood to the core, and you've got H's unwilling to fight for their M.<p>Your situation and Ruined Life's illustrates how when a BS decides that they no longer want to be married to the WS, the WS starts coming back to reality. Unfortunately that reality is now that they have lost their S and M.<p>Another thing is that WS's never want to admit to themselves that their BS's can possibly find another P that can take their place and become their future S's. When my W became a fogged up WS she treated me like I was less than a man but her tune changed as soon as I found another woman to fill the void she left behind. But just like with your xH's, it was already too late because of all the pain and suffering she inflicted on me and our D's with her multiple A's. Now my D's don't even like going over to their mom's because every time they go visit her she grills them on me and my GF and how we are doing, etc. My xW has asked me on numerous occasions to come over her place for a home cooked meal but I respectfully declined out of respect for my GF, but more so because I see it as desperate attempt at reconciling with me. She has asked me out to the theatre and movies, etc despite me saying to her NO. I have told her that I do not appreciate her attention towards me and that I will start using a third party to discuss issues relating to our D's if she does not cease and desist in her feeble attempts at reconciling.<p>I applaud both of you for your courage in posting your painful experiences because hopefully there will be a WS that will not let things get to the point where their BS will throw in the towel and proceed to divorce them.<p>Good luck and God bless both of you.<p>Joe<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

Hello...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ruined Life:
<strong>Hello dear friends --<p>It's been a while since I've visited here ... many of you will remember me by a different name but for the sake of anonymity, I've decided a new name was in order.<p>My ex H and I have been divorced for just about a year. We have two children, 11 and 14. Both of us have remarried. I think he's very happy.<p>I know I'm not. I'm constantly tormented by thoughts that divorcing my ex was the worst thing I could have done. I honestly believe it's ruined not just my life but that it has seriously impacted my children's lives as well.<p>I can't seem to find peace, not within myself and certainly not within this new marriage. There is just so much to say...but I don't want to overwhelm (or bore) anyone.<p>You know the old adage "Be careful what you wish for?"...I could be poster child for that notion.<p>I am profoundly sad but I have no idea how to change things. <p>I used to visit here when the ex and I were in the throws of separating. We both ended up having affairs but I honestly believe that I didn't try hard enough to save my first marriage. It was like I thought I could just start anew, fresh, a new beginning. I was wrong. The bond my ex and I share because of our children is incredibly strong. He is their father. He was a good husband. I just didn't realize it at the time.<p>An illness during those dark days I believed seriously colored my decision to go ahead with a divorce. The same illness plunged me into another relationship too quickly...the new marriage just doesn't feel right. I wonder if I'll ever regard it like I did the first marriage.<p>I'm scared and I feel alone. I wish I could just get together with my ex, alone, and talk to him about all of this. I know he wouldn't go for it though.<p>How does a person build a bond with a new H after a decade and a half with the original H?<p>Sorry. I babble.<p>It's good to be back. A big hello to all my old friends...K and the gang.<p>Peace,<p>Ruined Life</strong><hr></blockquote>

For what it's worth, the first year or two after a D really is horribly confusing...especially with kids. We spend so much time studying their reactions to anything, trying to dispel fear, being there for the anger, questions, crying..it's hard to take time to think about OUR needs.<p>Similar to a death..except we assign blame and fault..much of it at ourselves.<p>Working on unsettled issues and feelings remaining from the former marriage is exactly what you need to do..then you can move on.<p>Concentrating on what you can do to keep your current relationship healthy is also important.<p>Good luck, and like all other crisis's..give it some time.
T

I think it highly unlikely that the resentment will ever go away - it will probably just get worse. And sooner or later, one or both of you will probably have another affair. The trust will never be there. <p>In many, many cases, children are better off emotionally with a single parent than they are with a stepparent in the home. The children need their parents even more in the years following a divorce than they did before, and having to compete for attention with the stepparent just makes it far, far harder. Generally both the children and the stepparent end up feeling resentful of the other.<p>If you already are feeling resentful, I think it would be far better to end this farce of a marriage now, and devote your energies to your children.

Joe,<p>Thanks for your post. It was good to hear from the perspective of an xBH. I think you're correct in part about WS's not wanting the marriage back until their S wants out. It appears to be one of the dark facets of human nature to long for something once it's out of your reach....shameful, but true.<p>Your wife is obviously still clinging to the notion that the two of you still have a chance of working things out. I suspect with time, that she'll let go, as I did when it becomes apparent that you and your GF are 'here to stay'. Hopefully then she'll stop pumping your D's for info re the two of you, if not for their sake, then by virtue of the fact it'll become too painful for her to hear.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Who's Hurting Now:
<strong>Joe,<p>Thanks for your post. It was good to hear from the perspective of an xBH. I think you're correct in part about WS's not wanting the marriage back until their S wants out. It appears to be one of the dark facets of human nature to long for something once it's out of your reach....shameful, but true.<p>Your wife is obviously still clinging to the notion that the two of you still have a chance of working things out. I suspect with time, that she'll let go, as I did when it becomes apparent that you and your GF are 'here to stay'. Hopefully then she'll stop pumping your D's for info re the two of you, if not for their sake, then by virtue of the fact it'll become too painful for her to hear.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Your welcome WHN<p>But let me clarify that she is not my wife anymore and unlike your H I did not start a relationship with my present GF until AFTER my divorce. This was intentional because I wanted to show my daughters that it is not morally ok to find another person while still married to your spouse, even if said spouse did find somebody else. I do not want my daughters to grow up beleiving that it is perfectly allright to cheat on their future husbands. <p>Another thing I did before I even got serious with my present GF was to ask my daughters what they thought about her as a person because I wanted to find out what their emotional state was at that time. And secondly, I wanted them to realize that I did not want to ram my relationship down their throats without their approval. Thankfully they get along really great with my GF and they do a lot of things together that I sometimes find myself feeling just a little bit jealous [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It really doesn't personally bother me that much her feeble attempts at reconciling with me except that I see it damages the relationship that she and our daughters share. THAT bothers me because despite her sexual addiction she is not a horrible mother that does not love her daughters. I tell my daughters to please remember that their mother loves them very much and to please understand their mother's inability to let go of me as only a temporary thing that will begin to dissipate as time goes by.<p>But going back to your situation, I beleive that in a strange way your xH has become what your present H was at one time, the OM. True you do not have an actually A with your xH but it sure feels a lot like it doesn't it?<p>My advice to you is to not even try to contact your xH (treat him like an OM) and try your hardest to work on your present M. Read the Harley books 'Surviving an affair' 'His needs Her needs' and 'Love Busters'. I do beleive that even though you married OM, that you can still make this new M work and turn it into a loving one if you really dedicate yourself to it. And have faith because things do get better with time.<p>Your friend.<p>Joe<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

quote from Joe:<p>[But let me clarify that she is not my wife anymore and unlike your H I did not start a relationship with my present GF until AFTER my divorce. This was intentional because I wanted to show my daughters that it is not morally ok to find another person while still married to your spouse, even if said spouse did find somebody else. I do not want my daughters to grow up beleiving that it is perfectly allright to cheat on their future husbands. ] <p>Joe, I found this refreshing as my ex maintains to this day that he was 'justified' in having an affair since 'our marriage had been over for a long time', given my involvement with OM. He continually labels me as the 'cheating spouse' and he, the 'victim' who was driven to his actions.<p>quote:
[But going back to your situation, I beleive that in a strange way your xH has become what your present H was at one time, the OM. True you do not have an actual A with your xH but it sure feels a lot like it doesn't it?]<p>Yes, strangely enough, it does...and the feelings it resurects are pretty sickening!<p>quote:
[My advice to you is to not even try to contact your xH (treat him like an OM) and try your hardest to work on your present M. Read the Harley books 'Surviving an affair' 'His needs Her needs' and 'Love Busters'. I do beleive that even though you married OM, that you can still make this new M work and turn it into a loving one if you really dedicate yourself to it. And have faith because things do get better with time]<p>EXCELLENT advice! By the way, the OM is not yet my husband as we've only gotten engaged 2 months ago. I wanted my 11 yr old son to have at least 2-3 yrs to process the divorce before I brought another man into the house as step-parent.<p>Thanks to Joe and everyone else who've responded in a positive non-judgemental way to posts from myself and "Ruined". You've all been extrememly helpful [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi:<p>Nellie... were you sharing your thoughts... or were you lashing out in pain towards someone who had an affair? We've all made mistakes and we all need to heal.<p>Not trying to be hard on you... just asking.
Laura

WHN I'm glad that you let 2-3 years pass before you and OM engaged. It shows that you are a good mother and that your concern for your son is paramount before your relationship with your BF.<p>Your xH is full of s*** because he too cheated on you when he found another woman to have an affair with under the pretext of separating to find out if you still had feelings for OM afterwards. I suspect that he may have cheated on you whithout you realizing it before you got involved with OM. He wasn't man enough to take responsability for his part on the deterioration of your M with him that created. Sure there is no justification for your affair or your husbands but just maybe what happened to you happened for the best.<p>Never forget the lessons of an A. Read the Harley books with you BF so that he too can benefit from the wisdom they offer.<p>I would just want to add that it might also do you good if you went for counseling, even if it's just to vent, on how to deal with your feelings. I wouldn't be surprised if your future H decides to go with you, if so welcome it. You need to put the past behind you not only for your own good but also for your son and future H. You want to make sure that you don't marry your BF until all the emotional baggage from the past is finally gone.<p>Wishing you and yours the best.<p>Joe<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

Ruined Life I apologized for having directed all my advice to Who's Hurting Now, but the same things I told her apply to you.<p>Joe<p>[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

RL,<p>When I read your post I wondered if your children, in part, are having a tough time with the adjustments because they see their mother not adjusting well.<p>Yes, divorce is bad for children, but parents attitudes afterwards can either make it worse or better.<p>Just food for thought...<p>You may want to be very careful that you aren't continuing to ruin your life by now ruining your second marriage.<p>If you don't move on, you will...Are you sure that is what you want?<p>Please think through what you are doing carefully.<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

I find it interesting that, over and over again on the general questions area, you read that relationships that are based on deceit and lies are almost always doomed. Here we have someone who freely admits that her relationship with the OM is on very shakey ground specifically because of its foundation, or lack thereof. <p>Then you come to the D/D board and the general consensus is that such relationships just "need time" and maybe a bit of counseling. If there is no foundation, it may well be that no amount of fixing up will be enough to do more than just delay its collapse. <p>You can't have it both ways.

Nellie,<p>I think that in the case of one of these women, the difference is that she married him. <p>The one who is engaged, WhosHurting, has a choice to make before she goes through with the marriage.
But the other woman, Ruined, has already made a vow to the new husband.<p>Did Ruined come back anywhere else? She hasn't answered here. I hope everythings ok.

I firmly believe that no marriage that begins as an affair can ever be morally valid - you are only free to make a vow when you are in a relationship that began honestly, one that did not destroy another relationship in order to exist.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
I firmly believe that no marriage that begins as an affair can ever be morally valid - you are only free to make a vow when you are in a relationship that began honestly, one that did not destroy another relationship in order to exist.<hr></blockquote><p>
Nellie,<p>I agree 200% with you on the above statements.<p>Thank you!<p>Love,
Jo

{{{Jo}}},<p>You're welcome. It is nice to know that you agree.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>I firmly believe that no marriage that begins as an affair can ever be morally valid - you are only free to make a vow when you are in a relationship that began honestly, one that did not destroy another relationship in order to exist.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well said. It is not only morally invalid but spiritually invalid. Sure, it may be legal, but legal is the least important aspect of a marriage. Your statement bears two fundamental characteristics - simple and true. And the proof is in the pudding, just take a look around.

nellie...I find it interesting that, over and over again on the general questions area, you read that relationships that are based on deceit and lies are almost always doomed. Here we have someone who freely admits that her relationship with the OM is on very shakey ground specifically because of its foundation, or lack thereof.<p>snl...I agree that such a foundation carries with it potentially serious problems...but I also observe that the majority of marriages (80%) also end in divorce, or are loveless, unhappy accomodations (and often abusive, dependent as well).....wonder why that is. I don't think the failure of 2nd marriages has anything to do with being 2nd marriages, but are a reflection of the skills people learn (or not) in mate selection and being in relationships...be it a first, second, third marriage. On that basis one who experiences an affair and learns from it has a much greater chance of successful 2nd marriage with op (assuming they too learned, and dealt with their marriage), than 2 people marrying for the first time but doing a poor job of mate selection. But in fact many don't learn, or run away and trade one person for another, and therein lies the basis for their marital failure, they married to escape something, rather than cause they applied sound principles to their choice to marry...just like people do the first time...they marry to get away from home, or to be leave it to beaver, or to find validation in mother/fatherhood, or for regular sex, etc. etc....marriages fail pretty much for one reason, and that is the introspective understanding, and mate selection skills of the individuals...few people marry for the right reasons, mostly people marry cause they want or expect something from someone, and want to bind them to themself, and call it love to "validate" it...people often expend more actual discernment buying a car then they do choosing a mate, whether it be the first time, or an affair, same people, same outcome.

Ruined Life and who's Hurting now...
VERY interesting to read your messages.
I have posted my threads here somewhere and mostly on Divorce Busting.
It is very interesting to hear of your regrets and "pining" to reconcile with ex.
My W left me Jan2001. We were together 12 years. She 16 and me 21. I was her first love and I guess she was mine. No kids.
W left because I "switched off". She adored me and took it bad over the following months. OM (co worker) consoled her and one thing lead to another.
I only found out in December. W's emotions have been all over the place since. First person she thinks of when she wakes up is me. She thinks of me when she's with OM. He knows it to.
It is the "trust" thing on coming back. She feels "safe" with OM and what interests me is one of your comments in your message. Who's hurting now..[Quote]Today, I am still with the "OM", recently engaged. He's been wonderfully understanding, supportive and has built a nice bond with my pre-teen son....however, I still ache inside for my lost husband and marriage. We spent nearly 20 yrs together. Having spent this length of time with someone, they become almost ingrained in you. First love is a deep love....something I didn't realize until it was too late. There has been resentment towards my BF for the role he played in ending my marriage...persistently pursuing a confused married woman...there is anger towards my ex for not 'fighting' for our marriage, and mostly there is sadness and disgust at myself for the hurt I've caused my spouse[Quote]
This is very intereting. I don't know your situation, like who left who first etc to get to your to your current situation but my W knows I always wanted her back and even more so she has noticed "changes" in me (for the better).
I feel OM has "pursued" W as he was dumped by his W late 2000. She had an affair and that seems like it's withering. OM has a 5 year old D.
My W was like I said "confused", "distraught" and "vulnerable". OM I guess is mentally strong and has sort of "duped" my W went we were S into saying he would give her "the world". Treats her like a princess. Nothing he won't do for her yet she tells me he says to her "you are always critical of me". W tells me they have no understanding with each other YET she doesn't know what she wants. W doesn't know if she will go with him permanently. W tells me she feels guilty of her being with him and me being on my own. I haven't admitted to having been with somebody so I guess W is feeling guilty. W tells me in tears that if she came back then I may change my mind after all and not want her. Also months down the line I may go back to where I was before she left.
She has said many times in tears, "my life is ruined" and that "I am going to end it all".
Very depressed with how things have turned out. W says she will love me 'til the day she dies.
W says she will NEVER love anybody as much as she loved me. OM is very aware of this.
W says she will NEVER be happy again. NEVER happy as she was with me.
W says she misses me, and that she constantly thinks about me, YET W wears OM friendship ring.
SO I am saying, maybe OM pursued her when in a VERY confused and vulnerable position. Whilst although S, still a married woman. You aren't single until you are D'd.
W has not responded yet to her lawyer regarding the decree nisi...that was 5 WEEKS AGO!! Tells me she hasn't had time.
I mentioned many times that it was my choice not to be with anybody as we aren't D'd yet. Maybe she has either sub consciously or purposely delayed responding to lawyer 'cos if then it was final I would "move on".
Finally, W came here for tea last week (second time I have seen her since xmas day).
I DB'd all the way [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I asked her if she wanted to go to beach so I went upstairs to get something for her to wear on top. W asked if she could come up???
Snooped in my spare room amongst shelves.
I said my neighbour was pulling up on her driveway. Single/D'd and only recently moved in.
W dashed unexpectedly downstairs and out to the car. I followed her and locked the door behind.
Neighbour was still in her car SO what was all this "all of a sudden" exit having mentioned my new neighbour. ???
Ok I have taken over this thread, sorry.
But I found interesting the "regrets". My W I feel if she decides to keep going with OM thats she will feel as you do. I am holding out and giving her more time. I am being her friend when I get the chance to see or speak to her although I am hurting inside.
I really think she isn't happy with OM 'cos their are so many negatives about their "compatibilty".
They don't like the same music. He can't make her laugh and he is just to conservative in his manners. OM is planning their future. Is this not pressure when the poor girl is still grieving for her "first love"? The man she adored and loved so much she would do anything for him.
Any comments on this are welcome.
If I decide now to go off with OW then she may become "unconfused" and realize she wants me back. It maybe too late then, so I don't want to make that mistake yet. We have been S 15 months.
Scott<p>[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: smileysmile ]</p>