I was curious about the betrayed husbands and what life is like without their children.<p>How far did she move them from you?
Me - 130 miles (2.5hrs)<p>Did she take them out of the state?
Me - Yes (with court approval, not mine)<p>How many children and what age when they moved?
Me - 1 daughter, 4 years old when moved<p>It still a woman's world out there in this department. I miss my daughter terribly and now see her growth in spurts. It's very hard to be involved in the education process under the circumstances.

cat,<p>I understand how you feel but do you honestly expect your xw to reject her own best interests (and those of your d) just so that they can live close to you? (I am operating under the assumption that she moved closer to her fiance.)<p>My x has petitioned the court to order me to keep my daughter in this county---I have no plans to move but what if my job forced me? I am supposed to quit a good paying job that I've been on over 15 years so my x can play 'dad' every weekend? Or divorce the new husband who helps support d as well if he has to move for his work?<p>I don't mean to sound harsh--I know you are hurting and miss your baby but sometimes I think we don't look at the big picture. <p>Actually, 130 miles in a two hour drive---it takes me 1/2 of that to get home every day. I don't see how this would stop you from visiting. It's just not as convenient as it was.

Dallas,<p>It doesn't stop me from visiting. I see her every other weekend. I'm also supposed to see her one weeknight per week, but her mother refuses, saying it's too hard on the child. No $h!t!!! That was my position when this arrangement was proposed.<p>I effectively see my daughter 4 days per month. Think about that before you or your new hubby take that new job in Amarillo!<p>And your phrasing of your x "playing dad" sounds a little condescending and patronizing.<p>[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: catamount82 ]</p>

I was the WS. Originally I had a home built 1-2 miles from my ex so that he could stay very involved with the kids and their activities. First he played lots of games that made it convenient for him given our distance. You know, not pick them up, pick them up anywhere from 2 hrs. to 24 hrs. late or not pick them up at all. Or, he'd bring them home Saturday instead of Sunday and not call first. Or, he'd forget to bring their clothes back so that he could stop by a number of times over the next few days to deliver them an article at a time. When he got bored with that he went 2 years without even calling them. Too close for comfort and I moved away from him. A big 15 minutes away but enough to not make harassing me convenient. Despite my strong feeling of hate towards him I'd never move our children a great distance from him because despite his rotten fathering skills the kids love him. My husband lives about 15 minutes from his kids too. We are in the middle of both ex's to try and keep it equal for both.

cat,<p>I'm sorry. I really didn't mean it that way. I was thinking subconsciously I guess about MY sorry x who wants all of his d's love and adoration but is fighting taking responsibility for her (support, of course)tooth and nail. I really didn't mean it as a reflection of your situation. And while I don't plan to move her away from her dad, I won't ruin us financially just to be convenient to him.<p>Bonnie, I know what you mean. We live in the same small area here and the x is 'too good' to call d at home or come here to pick her up or see her. Instead he goes to school and has her drug out of class, disrupting everyone else, and sees nothing wrong with it. And he, too, often skips his weekends with her--opting to work instead. Then whines that he never gets to see her. Sheesh. Sometimes I wish somebody would push him in front of a bus.

Diddallas....too funny about getting pushed in front of a bus. I use to always say that I wish mine would eat a bullet. I know most of the time I don't mean that but there are times......

nope, I mean every word...terrible but true.

I was curious about the betrayed husbands and what life is like without their children.<p>Life without my children is awkward and difficult, but I'm adjusting.<p>How far did she move them from you?
About 1,000 miles.<p>Did she take them out of the state?
Yes (I could have refused but I let her go.)<p>How many children and what age when they moved?
I have 4 kids (see signature). She took the youngest two. The oldest 2 live with me. Yes, I'm one of those lucky ones that have younglings that won't leave the nest! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
I agree, it's a bummer. I focus on the positives and make sure I'm available to them in any way they want to talk to me. I have MSN Messenger, AOL Instant Messanger, email, a cell phone and a pager. I call them most evenings even though they're hard to get a hold of. When they're here I make sure every minute counts. I don't waste my time complaining about the problems that them living in 1,000 miles away creates because none of that is their fault.

As I've had the experience of being the child with this selfish BS, I knew what to do when I got divorced.<p>My mother married the OM and eventually moved us 400 miles from our dad. Although the step-dad did do a lot of stuff with us brothers (two), he was a jerk. My mom did not participate in our lives much at all. Oh, BTW, the marriage was dead after about a year. They lived a dead marriage for umpteen years before divorcing after my brother and I were out of the house. House, never a home. So much for "soulmates".<p>I told my WS XW (stbxw at that time) that I'd fight her "tooth and nail" for our daughter. There was no way in hell I was going to let her damage our daughter by her selfishness.<p>I have primary custody. I work with the XW and we currently have a 50/50 arrangement as far as time with our daughter (5 y.o.). My XW is to marry the OM in September. She's not happy. She moved to be closer to the OM (25 miles from me) and she's still not happy. She said she'd have to make the sacrifice and drive the distance. Selfish BS. No thought of our daughter. I remember having to drive the 400 miles back and forth to my dad once or twice a year. The XW is still not happy. Her engagement ring doesn't even fit.<p>In our divorce papers, I've agreed to stay in a tri-county area in order to maintain custody. I'd never want to make the distance between mother and father difficult for my daughter. I've lived through that. I had an empty childhood.<p>Kevin

There are two problems with this statement:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I understand how you feel but do you honestly expect your xw to reject her own best interests (and those of your d) just so that they can live close to you?<hr></blockquote><p>1) The daughter's best interest is to be near her father, if he is an involved father, which he is.<p>2) This question is a no-brainer. Absolutely the xw should reject her own best interests for the sake of her daughter. It is called being a parent. This seems to be the essence of the difference between WS's and BS's. Almost always, the former think THEY come first, and the BS's think the family comes first. That is why, in so many cases where the woman is the WS, the father has been the primary parent, and in virtually every case where the man is the WS, the mother has been the primary parent.

There are two problems with this statement:<p>I understand how you feel but do you honestly expect your xw to reject her own best interests (and those of your d) just so that they can live close to you?
1) The daughter's best interest is to be near her father, if he is an involved father, which he is.2) This question is a no-brainer. Absolutely the xw should reject her own best interests for the sake of her daughter. It is called being a parent. This seems to be the essence of the difference between WS's and BS's. Almost always, the former think THEY come first, and the BS's think the family comes first. That is why, in so many cases where the woman is the WS, the father has been the primary parent, and in virtually every case where the man is the WS, the mother has been the primary parent<p>Nellie1,<p>First, I'd like to know if you have children, how old they are. Second, I resent the inference that I am stupid--I assure I am not. What you may consider a 'no-brainer' may actually be something that many, many people struggle with.<p>So, what you are saying is that since I couldn't make my marriage work with a non-helping, self-absorbed, emotionally withdrawn parnter after 18 years, now that I have actually found someone else who does meet my needs, is actually a helpmate to me, loves me above anybody else on this Earth...that if the situation arises, I should either end my new marriage or submit to financial hardship so that I can make sure my x husband isn't put out any as far as visitation of our daughter is concerned? Yeah, it's a no-brainer, all right. Would you do it? I bet not. In fact, I would guess that after surviving an unhappy marriage, you, like most of the rest of us, would grab your second chance at happiness with both fists. <p>The child's best interest is to be in a happy, loving, financially stable home. <p>I get the feeling that you are or at least think like those 'mother martyrs' who sacrifice everything for their children. IMO, this is foolish and sets your children up for unrealistic disappointments in real life. Nobody else will do that for them and they will have a hard time learning the truth of the world---you can't always have everything you want.<p>Lest you get the idea that I am a selfish b*tch, I, too, give my child everything she needs and a lot of what she wants. And I will do without if necessary to provide for her. But, I am not willing to sacrifice my husband and our financial stability for the convenience of my x who is too selfish to even pay child support (until we go to court next week, that is).<p>I have learned two things raising children: 1) they take all of your sacrifices for granted and feel cheated no matter how much or how little you do for them and 2) they grow up and move away--leaving you sitting alone in a tiny apartment on welfare if we are to follow your instructions. No thanks.<p>I also think you are presumptuous to infer that this is the direct result of affairs. This has nothing to do with infidelity--it has to do with divorce and visitation. The fact that one or the other partner did or did not have affair is irrelevant here. Pardon me, but I think your 'bs chip' is showing.<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I have learned two things raising children: 1) they take all of your sacrifices for granted and feel cheated no matter how much or how little you do for them and 2) they grow up and move away--leaving you sitting alone in a tiny apartment on welfare if we are to follow your instructions. No thanks."<hr></blockquote><p>I hope I'm full of s*** but if you beleive this then why didn't you give your xH custody of your kids? It shows resentment towards them and how was that in their best interests?<p>A parent that expects his/her children to provide for them in their old age is setting him/herself up for disappointment. They will probably get married and have families of their own that they will have to put their interest first above all others.<p>The only thing I hope that my children will do for me in my latter years, is to give me a call or visit me when it doesn't interfere with their family responsabilities.<p>Your statement has as much validity as me saying that one thing I learned about having beign married is that no matter how much you love a woman and provide for her she will cheat on you, leave you for another man and leave you horribly heartbroken. I'm sorry but even in my bitter experience having beign married with my multiple affair loving xW, I do not hold that view.<p>But children do learn from their parents behavior in their marriages. What kind of lesson do you think a child will learn when his/her parent cheated on their other parent, broke up the family for the OP, and got 'rewarded' by the legal system in the process? Why then be surprised when they turn up be selfish adults
themselves who repeat their cheating parent's pattern of behavior in their own marriages?<p>BTW in case you think I am the typical non-custodial parent BS b****ing about his lot in life, I am actually the custodial parent of both our daughters and my xW pays child support.<p>Diddallas I agree with most of your points of view, but this is one where I seriously beg to differ with you.<p>Joe<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: justanotherjoe ]</p>

I have been reading the site for many months. I am both a BS and a WS. <p>My husband just this morning, took my daughters 1855.99 miles away. He feels called to the ministry and believes that where he is going is where he is to be to get training. Why did I let him take my daughters? I let him because my aunt and uncle live there and they adore the girls. They treat them as their own and while we are going through this trial, I believe it is best for them to have that support. <p>I can't explain it, and some people think I'm insane, but I feel that it's best. I will most likely be moving there myself, but I'm having to come to terms with leaving my home.<p>I am making a sacrifice for their best interests. While I woud like to keep them with me, they wanted to go and know that I will be there in time.<p>I feel odd just sharing this little bit when no one knows anything about me, but this post beckoned me.<p>Michele<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]<p>[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: MD ]</p>

There is a book out there somewhere, I don't remember the name of it or the author but it's main point is that children are better off with a single parent than a parent who jumps into a second marriage as that parent is usually using the second marriage to heal themself.<p>I've heard Dr. Laura tout the book.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>if you beleive this then why didn't you give your xH custody of your kids? It shows resentment towards them and how was that in their best interests?<hr></blockquote>
Well, Joe, first let me say that I appreciate your kind words about *most* of what I have to say. To answer your question, my sons were 18 (gone on his own) and 16 (chose to live with his dad) when I divorced. My daughter resides with me as I believe that little ladies are best guided by their mothers (if the mother is at all fit)after they reach a certain age whereas young gentlemen need the male role model that a good dad provides. Also, having custody would entail that the x actually do something for someone else--like change his work hours (4-12midnite), hire a babysitter, change his off days to take care of dd and, my goodness, pay to feed, house and clothe her--those things that he has no intention of doing. And my daughter does not want to live with her father.<p>Furthermore, I do not resent my children, I love them dearly and will give them any internal organ they want...all I am saying is that it has been my experience that children of all colors, religions, and social backgrounds go thru the stage of taking their parents and luxuries for granted. Having raised two and a half (and I believe that I am a decent mother...I don't drink, dont gamble my paycheck away, I come home at nite...went to the soccer games, band concerts, choir performances and dance recitals-btw, if the x went to a game or recital, it was after a lot of begging on my part and a huge fight)-taught them right from wrong and they ALWAYS had everything they needed and a lot of what they wanted, often heard complaints that 'johnny had a new video game, why can't I get one, too?' As Mark Twain said: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." They all go thru the stage--it's part of growing up.<p>What I expect from my children is that they grow up to be moral human beings--nothing more, nothing less. My old age care is my responsbility which would mean being financially responsible NOW.<p>Nellie 1 said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Absolutely the xw should reject her own best interests for the sake of her daughter. It is called being a parent. <hr></blockquote>No, IMO, that's called being a martyr. Will that child decline to move away from YOU when she is offered a fabulous once-in-a-lifetime job in Moscow? Probably not. Of course, we all sacrifice for our kids---but you can't sacrifice everything, you must keep something for yourself.<p>Joe said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What kind of lesson do you think a child will learn when his/her parent cheated on their other parent, broke up the family for the OP, and got 'rewarded' by the legal system in the process? <hr></blockquote> I think that ultimately we all learn that the legal system is just that-the law-it often has nothing to do with right and wrong or justice. If so, a certain retired football player would be in prison for murdering his exwife and friend. I think we all forget that 'life isn't fair' sometimes. And when the lesson is taught to us again, it is painful.<p>Your statement has as much validity as me saying that one thing I learned about having beign married is that no matter how much you love a woman and provide for her she will cheat on you, leave you for another man and leave you horribly heartbroken.No, but a true statement would be that "no matter...it is still POSSIBLE that she wll cheat..."<p>I know that this is a touchy subject for all of us for one reason or another. Fortunately, I am not on the non-custodial side of the fence...thank God. I don't know how I would cope if I was. But honestly, if my ex were to marry a nice, religious woman who would be kind and a friend to my daughter, I would let her live with them if she wished...I wouldn't be happy but I would do it.<p>All I'm saying is 1-I do agree that both parents should have a constant, stable relationship with their children AND non-custodial parents do get the short end of the stick most of the time BUT I think it is unfair of the non-custodial to want the custodial to sacrifice everything, including their happiness, for convenience. After all, the original post was not that Cat was unable to ever see his d, it is much less convenient. Wait til they go away to college...you never see them then! Couple times a year. If he feels so strongly about it (and cat, I don't mean you personally) why doesn't he MOVE CLOSER TO THEM?

RWD and everyone else here,<p>I think we've fallen into the trap of 'generalization'. We are starting to stereotype the BS's as the poor, moral victims-the WS as slavering, immoral devils...etc. <p>I try to keep in mind that we are all individual and even if every detail of your marriage is the same as mine, we are individuals with different feelings, experiences and actions which make all the difference.<p>And RWD, not to be rude, but I cannot stand Dr Laura and if she advised me to come in out of the rain, I'm afraid I'd have to stay out and get wet. Just my opinion. Again, her theory is fine but it is a theory. She doesn't know me, my x, my current or my kids and therefore, she is in no position of knowledge as far as *I* am concerned.<p>Now I can't personally speak for anyone but me but I will say that I have used my second marriage to repair the first...I have made a conscious effort to try not to make the same mistakes this time around. Is that wrong? Or maybe I want to make a whole bunch of *new* mistakes? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I agree that it probably is not a good idea to jump into a new marriage but who is to say for sure what is right for you but you? <p>I beg your forgiveness if I have offended anyone for I value the experiences and wisdom that each of you so kindly shares with the rest of us. If I have hurt you, please just think of me as the idiot cousin everyone ignores at the annual family picnic. You know, the one with the blue leisure suit and white patent leather shoes.<p>{{hugs}}

No need to apologize to any Diddallas.<p>I'm very glad that you posted and set us straight on what you meant. And I agree wholeheartedly with you on the last two posts.<p>I value very much your posts because they are so honest and down to earth. No B.S.<p>Have a great one (I certainly will try to. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>Joe

Didallas,<p>Actually, I do have kids - six of them, to be exact. The youngest is six and the oldest is 21, so I do have a fair amount of experience in the child-raising realm. <p>I don't expect my kids to be "grateful" for whatever I have done for them - perhaps they are, but they should not have to be. The most I would ask is that they place as much importance on family as I do when they in turn have children.
Interestingly, their father, who has always said that sending the children to college was extremely important to him, recently tried to convince our eldest that she should thank him for paying the small portion of her total tuition that he has paid. <p>Many states, including my own, will not allow the CP to move out of state unless the NCP agrees or the court decides that it is in the best interests of the CHILDREN. The best interests of the adults are irrelevant. <p>Putting what is best for your children above what is best for yourself is not martyrdom - it is being a responsible parent. I am not resentful for what I may have given up for my children. My happiness is not in competition with theirs - my happiness is in large part a result of theirs.