IMO, people hang out with others if they enjoy their company. Doesn't matter what their values are and what they do in their private life. Most people only care about themselves and as long as that so-called valueless person does not do anything to betray THEM, then everything is A-OK. That is one thing I've learned about life after divorce.

nellie...I don't think continuing a relationship built upon lies and deceit qualifies as "sinning no more." <p>snl...Relationships are not "built" on anything, they are behavioural choices, and they start anew every day. Most marriages are living in sin as well (maybe all) because the H and W are not being perfect spouses, and violating various admonitions God has made. The particular marital sin we are talking about here is focusing on someone outside the marriage in a marital way (so to speak), however if you are divorced from your spouse (a condition the Bible does recognize as different from being married) then you are no longer sinning when you consider another as a mate, and/or choose them...it makes no difference what history either of you have, we are born anew in God each day, and are expected to sin no more as our goal. Since we are imperfect beings, we will in fact sin, and God can forgive us, but whether He does or not is between each of us and Him, not for anyone else to say.

Some things SNL said made me think of a few things...<p>If one follows his logic, then there is no point in getting "married" or making vows. A vow is a promise, not a statement of good intent. Unfortunately, most people treat marriage like extended dating and vows like wishful thinking. Which is fine. You won't see me making those vows again. They are meaningless in this day and age. <p>This whole question about who has shame, remorse, guilt, etc is pointless. Adding to what I said above, most people don't care. The divorce happened and anyone can say anything about why it happened. Doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. Divorce is so prevalent, it is almost a joke. Marriage these days is more like shacking up---with some legal stuff thrown in there to help you sort things out when you get tired of each other. These sort of legal issues can be dealt with without anyone making so-called promises they REALLY have no intention of keeping--that is, if they are honest with themselves. If they are honest with themselves, most will say--I promise to love, honor, and cherish you as long as you meet my needs. I promise to keep you--for better or worse--as long as the "better" happens most of the time. Till death do us part, or until I find a better deal and someone who meets more of my needs. <p>Now, how is that for reality, folks?

Hi TS, classes over for the spring?<p>ye, that is a very jaded view of marriage, but certainly, has some validity in it.<p>however, i think people on this thread haven't done enough research or studying of personality disorders, and how they manifest themselves. . . <p>these disorders really are at the core of how some people never seem to have "morals." to reason to not have any morals is to base the disorder in lack of spirituality or religion, but there are cases of where the religious have disorders, like some catholic bishops or some such in my neighborhood. the sociopaths or disordered persons seek out situations that they perceive allow them to pursue their wants and or needs, and once they begin down the path, they must continue it so as to not face themselves and their iner feelings. alot of disorders are structured around the defense of the self, from vistim to perpetuator.<p>I listened to a woman yesterday when picking up my car from the repair shop, and she defended why she would go to thailand with her husband, but would NEVER try ANY of the food. . . the excuse was that she was irish catholic, we only eat meat and potatoes. . . i am a city girl, we don't eat fish. . . the excuses or rationalizations to preserve the self are incredible. . . <p>so, to make a long post a sentence or two longer , lots of people make up reasons and do things to protect themselves from what they perceive to be damaging, demeaning, different and difficult. . . . and these result in disorders. . . (and they got a D in psychology and philosophy class)<p>wiftty

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>
Now, how is that for reality, folks?</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Sounds about right to me. I'm watching someone else go through the divorce motions right now and what you describe is exactly the case. <p> I always used to think marriage was a more or less "useless"(as in it doesn't garuntee anything) arrangement, now I know so.

ts...If one follows his logic, then there is no point in getting "married" or making vows. A vow is a promise, not a statement of good intent. <p>snl...You "linked" two different things. There are a whole variety of good, sound reasons to choose marriage.....BUT indeed vows have no point. At best they are statements of intent (but that is kinda obvious, otherwise why get married in first place). The purpose of vows is to remove the emotional side of how humans process information about themself, and make marriage only a rational contract, a decision. However marriage (if it is to be more than a legal binding, ie a safe/nurturing/healthy/joyous place) requires committment (or choice) from BOTH aspects of how we assess our life, it has to be in harmoney rationally (in that your partner is reasonably holding up their end), and EMOTIONALLY (essentially that is a safe place for you)...if EITHER of those assessment tools reveals the marriage is not functional it must be fixed or ended, else one pays a very real price (essentially stress related and manifested in physical repercussions, and shortened lifespan), in addition one is not able to realize their full potential as a human being (because of the stress, and diversion of psychological/emotional resources to shoring up the marriage...commonly referred to as "work"), thereby depriving all those you come in contact with (including spouse, children, family, friends, etc.) the nurturing you could have provided. <p>Multiply this a billion fold as people continue to live less than fullfilling lives, and you find one of the sources of dysfunction for us as a species. There is no free ride, vows are an attempt to essentially do an endrun around immutable laws, much like trying to vow you can fly. Vows only "work" for rulemakers, temperament types who cope and value the "picture", that the marriage exists is their focus (not how healthy it is for the participants), and the reason behind much of the "self-help". But even they cannot escape the consequences of trying to use vows to gaurantee emotions. A focus or reliance on vows as the "reason" for marriage is a serious mistake, and one that at best can only gaurantee the legal framework stays intact, and whatever security derives from that....but it comes at a price, and that price is the emtional health of a those who remain married only out of duty.<p>ts...Unfortunately, most people treat marriage like extended dating and vows like wishful thinking. Which is fine. You won't see me making those vows again. They are meaningless in this day and age. <p>snl...I think that is true. My observation after over a year here is that people are very unwilling to get "real" and consider with real focus, whether they should be married to each other.....and so many have clearly co-dependent marriages that are no good at all in any real nurturing sense, just emotional wastedlands, of superficial co-habitation....one wonders why people would choose such a life, much less continue it....but it is the inevitable outcome of the extremely poor job we do in mate selection...then we try to hedge out bets with vows, an admirable, but essentially useless focus. What we need to do is understand ourselves, others, and how people fit in the intense condition of intimacy, hopefully to avoid making a poor choice in the first place, but if we do, then have the tools to assess it, and fix or end it...vows has nothing to do with this, it is just an effort to gaurantee results, so yes, are meaningless, in any real sense. They are meaningless to God also IMO. I really don't think He cares if we don't follow His will for us and marry (because freewill allows us to make poor choices about everything we do) the wrong person, but try to validate it with a vow. He is not bound by our vows, He just tells us how marriage is supposed to work, and how to behave in it, and does not say He will make one work just cause we want it too. He will be with us wherever we are in life, that is different....and I think He will lead us from unhealthy marriages as well, if we ask for discernment.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>I always used to think marriage was a more or less "useless"(as in it doesn't garuntee anything) arrangement, now I know so.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Nduli2,<p>I'm sorry you feel that way, that's the saddest statement I've read on these boards in a long time.<p>"Faith, Hope, & Love are some good things He gave us, but the greatest is Love" Alan Jackson Song

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong><p>
Nduli2,<p>I'm sorry you feel that way, that's the saddest statement I've read on these boards in a long time.<p>"Faith, Hope, & Love are some good things He gave us, but the greatest is Love" Alan Jackson Song</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You can have love in your life without marriage, I am very much in love right now. But I would have to be beaten, drugged, bound and gagged to get back up to that alter. Sorry, but Love/Marriage aren't mutually exclusive and I don't want to be a two time loser.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nduli2:
<strong>You can have love in your life without marriage, I am very much in love right now. But I would have to be beaten, drugged, bound and gagged to get back up to that alter. Sorry, but Love/Marriage aren't mutually exclusive and I don't want to be a two time loser.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh Yes and I totally agree with you on that. I'm not judging you in any way, my statement was simply, as a Christian male I find that statement to be sad. Nothing more, nothing less.

quote from Nduli2:<p>[In the end it wasn't until I stopped expecting anything from my WS that I started to heal and could focus on myself and what I needed. The die was cast and no amount of show guilt from ws would have changed anything.]<p>This makes so much sense to me. I have to wonder what some posters would consider appropriate atonement for the 'sins' of their exWS. From the posts I've read, it's been stated that "continuing in a relationship built upon lies and deceit"....and not 'undoing the damage" will never result in forgiveness. Does this suggest that the exWS must sever their current relationship and return to their former spouse?
While I can empathize with these feelings, isn't it rooted in wishful thinking and fantasy?<p>While your opinions re what is considered ethical or moral behavior don't have to waver, isn't fousing on how your ex could've paid his dues and how he's currently living his life stunting YOUR healing?

I think basically there are two kinds of people. Those who believe in commitment and those who do not. Sometimes two commitment oriented people connect. The rest of the time, one or both of the people in the relationship are not commitment oriented and the results are predictable.<p>..."I promise to love, honor, and cherish you as long as you meet my needs. I promise to keep you--for better or worse--as long as the "better" happens most of the time. Till death do us part, or until I find a better deal and someone who meets more of my needs." <p>"who'd have thought The Student knew my ex...
[img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Written by Nduli2:
In the end it wasn't until I stopped expecting anything from my WS that I started to heal and could focus on myself and what I needed. The die was cast and no amount of show guilt from ws would have changed anything.<hr></blockquote><p>I too, agree with Nduli2's take on this. Thanks, Nduli2.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Written by Who's Hurting Now:
While your opinions re what is considered ethical or moral behavior don't have to waver, isn't fousing on how your ex could've paid his dues and how he's currently living his life stunting YOUR healing?<hr></blockquote><p>Actually no, I don't believe it's stunting my healing. The information offered by friends regarding my ex-H was not solicited, and it honestly bothered me. So I come here to find out why it weighs on me. For ME, hearing from others here gives me a chance to examine my feelings based on others who have had similar experiences. It helps me learn "why" I feel the way I do and then I move forward. Isn't this the purpose of these forums and boards, TO LEARN? Else, why even post anything? <p>If you'll notice Who's, no where did I mention or infer my ex should return to the marriage OR that I expect not to forgive him because he hasn't.

My pending and ongoing effort in forgiveness is also the purpose for exploring my feelings here on these boards. It's a work in progress and asking tough questions is how I am going to get there.<p>God Bless,
Jo

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Does this suggest that the exWS must sever their current relationship and return to their former spouse?<hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely it would require at a minimum severing the relationship with the OP.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by c00ker:
<strong>I think basically there are two kinds of people. Those who believe in commitment and those who do not. Sometimes two commitment oriented people connect. The rest of the time, one or both of the people in the relationship are not commitment oriented and the results are predictable.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This may be true, but sometimes a person who is "commitment oriented" leaves anyway. The resulting dissonance in the WS can lead to some really bizarre thinking and behavior. As Bill suggests, they come to "believe the path of lies they've laid down in front of them". They exhibit no shame, because they desperately need to believe that their actions are justified, and they behave in conformance with their self-delusion in the hope that by doing so they will somehow cause those delusions to become reality.<p>I am a little uncomfortable with WIFTTy's emphasis on personality disorders because, as I understand it, "personality disorders" are merely convenient clumpings of unhealthy psychological patterns that occur together often enough to make application of a label useful in some contexts. The underlying unhealthy psychological processes, however, can and do also occur in many people who would not receive a specific diagnosis. In my view, those people are every bit as much in need of help.<p>And every bit as likely to reject it.

From Resilient:<p>[If you'll notice Who's, no where did I mention or infer my ex should return to the marriage OR that I expect not to forgive him because he hasn't.}<p>
Actually, I wasn't referring to your original post Resilient, but rather quoted a couple of phrases from "Nellie", a responder. From her subsequent post I see I was correct in assuming that she believes the ex must break off their current relationship if forgiveness is ever to be possible.
Again, her choice, her beliefs, but since the liklihood of that occurring isn't great, she ultimately will have a tougher time letting go of the anger and resentment.... which will impede her own path to peace and happiness.

I think forgiveness in these situations has to be the kind that comes without expectations. That is if one wants to forgive and be free of the negative stuff.<p> I don't really talk about this much as I put it behind me long ago, but I was abducted and assualted as a nine year old child. For a long time I carried around anger and revenge thoughts for this stranger who did this. From the ages of nine to 21 I was not okay and was one of those all black wearing, cynical, hating life, bad mouthed, drinking, drug taking teenagers your parents told you to stay away from.<p> It wasn't until I "forgave" this person for what they did that I started to put it behind me and live for real. Of course this person can't do anything to show me he's worthy of forgiveness, more than likely he's dead or in jail. Really forgiving him was for me, it allowed me to let go of those really hateful feelings and wanting to hurt someone like I was hurt.<p> My situation with the ex is much the same. There is nothing he can do to take away what was done. I will never get those nights I spent crying back or my credit rating back, or my life as it was back or innocence when it comes to relationships. But when I decided and said out loud to him "I forgive you and I'm not angry" a lot of crap went with it. Sure I still have days where I wish he hadn't have done what he did but I'm not angry, merely sad that it happened.<p> Forgiveness in these situations is always for the benefit of the offended party. Sometimes it's a matter of forgiving yourself, you know.

GDP<p>neurosis,<p>an excuse to do something that is otherwise harmful, the abdication of self responsibility, with identification of differing types. . . <p>there used to be one/two labels identifying neurosis/psychosis, now, they are more specific with better clarity and better treatment styles for each one. . .<p>however, underlying the disorder or neurosis is a goal for the individual, to get attention, to preserve the self image, to do whatever is required, but in the end, is mentally unhealthy to others or themselves. . . that is if the goal is to be mentally healthy, which is the goal of the MB philosophy. . . of which i choose to agree with. . .<p>the labels are merely more descriptive than prior due to more knowledge and more information. . . <p>dismiss it if you will, however, lack of morals is a religious based answer, disorders are a more scientific based answer, and disagreement to both is merely wanting to not look at reality. . . but at life the way you choose and want it explained. . . . <p>remember, there is no meaning to life, except what each gives it. . . .<p>GDP, as i talk with other people, and listen to stories, the more i see disorder patterns, that are mostly a type of neurosis, designed to protect one from themselves, or the world, which ever they choose. . . .<p>wiftty<p>[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

so wifty, you have any disorders? Or are you "normal".

I don't know how much shame my STBX feels for his A, I do know he will not have anything to do withone that was our friends. He thinks/thought they all are/were against him. He had friends that will they would never support his A, wanted to keep in touch, he refused all attempts to reach out to him.<p>NO matter how much he tries to blame it all on me, his A was aginst everything he ever believe & stood for. If he every falls out of love with the OW, he will have a hard time living with himself.<p>I forgave him for the A, a long time ago, he is right I let him be tempted & I feel the shame that I did but he still made the choice.<p>I don't hate him, I don't love hiim either, the only one he needs to worry about forgiving him is God & that is between him & God.

I've been tested, passed as normal, a whole day in a psych ward in NY city.<p>wiftty