<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>so wifty, you have any disorders? Or are you "normal".</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ROFLMAO!<p>SNL, you are so funny!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Don't be silly. Of course everyone has "issues" and is not "normal." You goof. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I have co-dependency issues, and self-esteem issues, and boundary issues, and CareTaker issues--and I'm not sure, but I don't think they translate into a disorder. But then again, if I had a mental disorder would I know it? HEEHEE.<p>You have control issues and codependency issues and some other stuff I'm sure you know about--again, probably not translating into a disorder, but who can tell! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] You seem nutty to me (rib rib).<p>Swiffty may not know it or admit it out loud, but he has issues too. Hey--we are ALL nuts here that I can tell! I don't think you can be alive and be "normal." And no offense, Swiffty, but if you truly think you are "normal" and only your XW had problems and disorders and issues, I think you're fooling yourself. Denial is not just a river in Egypt there buddy (heehee).<p>SNL, I may be a Feeler, which conflicts somewhat with your Thinker logic and reason, but I LOVE your sense of humor. It's so dry and a little dark. <p>GOOD ONE!!!!<p>CJ

I was pretty sure wifty could handle it, and so he did. So if everyone has "disorders" and no one is "normal" (unless they just happen to sit on the median point for the range of human behaviour), then what do we do? How do we "fit"...or do we all just run about trying to "fix" ourselves and/or whoever we happen to be married too, and accept that as our lot in life (vows, and the worse part of the better or worse concept)?<p>Well, I have an opinion on this. What makes us uniquely human is our ability to rise out of our circumstances (whatever they may be), makes no sense to accept ones lot in life if it does not work to some kind of reasonable standard (which can be quantified, but is not my point). Since we are pretty much saddled with our "disorders" (only small change is actually possible), and further since our "disorders" are actually who we are for the most part (just when we lose "balance", they become an issue), then the logical conclusion is we must mate with someone who has "complementary" (a positive synergy) disorders.....that meaning we bring the best out in each other....unfortuneately this is not easily done, more often than not we mate with someone whose disorders fuel a negative synergy, and bring out the worst in each other. Leading to depression, abuse, neglect, and so forth as the two struggle to survive in a very unhealthy psychological union.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong> ... Since we are pretty much saddled with our "disorders" (only small change is actually possible), and further since our "disorders" are actually who we are for the most part (just when we lose "balance", they become an issue), then the logical conclusion is we must mate with someone who has "complementary" (a positive synergy) disorders.....that meaning we bring the best out in each other.... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Okay--you make an interesting point here, certainly worthy of further thought and evaluation. I do believe that we all have our issues, and I do believe that the ideal would be to find someone with synergetic issues. BUT...what about finding someone who has issues that challenge yours? Wouldn't that be like the grindstone sharpening the knife?<p>Yes...in order to sharpen the knife it experiences conflict, but the outcome is a more excellent knife. Likewise, if we have a spouse that challenges our issues, and we have to face our issues because they are brought up by our spouse rather than "complemented", then don't we become better people because of it?<p>Case in point. My H is an ESTJ and I am an INFP. He is a hardworking, workaholic type, and I am a more laid-back, casual worker. BUT, because his issue challenged my issue, I learned to see the value of working hard--and I learned to get self-satsifaction out of a job well-done. Would this have happened if my spouse "complemented" my laid-back, casual style.<p>Just a thought...<p>Pluse, I was just hoping for more of your rapier wit and humor. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

My parents have been married for nearly 40 yrs. My grandparents were married for 60+ yrs. All of my aunts and uncles have been married 25 yrs or more and never divorced. All this obsessing about why divorce happens and who did what to whom doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Nothing and noone will ever take away my profound sadness that I will not be one of them--that I am divorced. Nothing and noone will ever make me feel safe in a relationship ever again. Doesn't matter what they say, what they do, or how many promises they make. If promises are only good intentions, then I have no need to make any and will not believe anyone who claims to make me one again. <p>I don't really even have the need to tell anyone I love them--not in a man/woman type relationship anyway. I don't have any need to hear it, and would actually prefer not to hear it. If love is something that comes and goes, then why bother? Either someone sticks around or they don't. My ex used to tell me everyday that he loved me. Big deal. Didn't mean a thing in the long run. When I date now, my thoughts about our "future" go from day-to-day, or at most...week-to-week. I don't plan for the future with anyone. I don't think about whether they will be around or not in the long haul. Seems like a waste of time.

ts...Nothing and noone will ever take away my profound sadness that I will not be one of them--that I am divorced.<p>snl...You are clearly an intelligent woman, so let me ask this in that spirit....do you really think the measure, the quality of a marriage is measured in time? Certainly longevity will be realized when a marriage is right, and works well, but in my travels (for example in-laws married 50 years, but not a nurturing place) the majority of long-term marriages I have observed are not safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous places...they are quite often two people just putting up with each other cause that is all they have. I am one of those 25 year marriages, and it hasn't been a very safe place, nor am I particularly proud of it, although we went throug the motions, and most would have described it as ok...it was not.<p>[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

In my case, while in my second affair, a thought stroke me like a lighting bolt. &#8220;What would your kids think about you if they saw you doing this?&#8221; That was my wake up call. I felt disgusted by myself, dirty, and very ashamed. I then stopped the affair and confessed to my XW. As you can guess from the last sentence, it was too late and I am paying big time. I lost my family, my wife and the opportunity to have a beautiful future together.

i will change,<p>I confessed too. If I had it to do over again, I would not have. I would have sought counseling to make sure it never happened again, gotten STD tests, then taken my secret to the grave. The stupidest thing I've ever done was have a one-night stand. The second stupidest thing I've ever done was to confess. IMO, someone can be remorseful and feel guilty without confessing. My guess is that your wife wanted your marriage to end anyway, and was probably happy to have an excuse to divorce you and blame you for it...so don't beat yourself up too much. If it makes you feel any better, then know this...Supposedly 90% of divorces involve infidelity and 70% of all men cheat at some point in their marriage. What that means is that the men your wife will be meeting now will most likely have cheated on their ex-wives too. Divorcing you will not improve her odds of being with a faithful man. Actually, it probably decreases her odds. I tell many of my dates that I was faithful. I'll bet most of her dates say the same thing, even if they weren't. <p>snl,
I don't care to have any more debates with you. You are the kind of person who lets your feelings dictate your life. I might hang out with someone like you for fun, but would never invest anything I considered important on you. But don't take it personally. I don't invest anything I consider important with men anymore--which is why it doesn't bother me to tell my dates I was faithful. I've got nothing to lose by lying. I've got nothing to gain by telling the truth either. That has been proven multiple times.<p>[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>GDP<p>neurosis,<p>an excuse to do something that is otherwise harmful, the abdication of self responsibility, with identification of differing types. . . <p>there used to be one/two labels identifying neurosis/psychosis, now, they are more specific with better clarity and better treatment styles for each one. . .<p>however, underlying the disorder or neurosis is a goal for the individual, to get attention, to preserve the self image, to do whatever is required, but in the end, is mentally unhealthy to others or themselves. . . that is if the goal is to be mentally healthy, which is the goal of the MB philosophy. . . of which i choose to agree with. . .<p>the labels are merely more descriptive than prior due to more knowledge and more information. . . <p>dismiss it if you will, however, lack of morals is a religious based answer, disorders are a more scientific based answer, and disagreement to both is merely wanting to not look at reality. . . but at life the way you choose and want it explained. . . . <p>remember, there is no meaning to life, except what each gives it. . . .<p>GDP, as i talk with other people, and listen to stories, the more i see disorder patterns, that are mostly a type of neurosis, designed to protect one from themselves, or the world, which ever they choose. . . .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>WIFTTy, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer, but I do not dismiss the concept of personality disorders, or the value of the concept. On the contrary, I believe the concept can be very useful.<p>My concern is that there may be a temptation to view personality disorders as if they are clearly defined diseases, such that if you don't have one your mental health must be OK, and if you do have one then you should be written off as a hopeless mess.<p>I don't believe things are that simple, and I don't believe you think that either, WIFTTy. Furthermore, I'm not saying that you actually conveyed that impression; I'm just wary of the tendency to stop looking for understanding once a convenient pat answer presents itself.<p>For what it's worth, the only thing I disagree with in your post is the assertion that "there is no meaning to life, except what each gives it." I am not an existentialist.<p>Emphatic agreement on seeing recurring patterns...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I will change!:
.... my XW. As you can guess from the last sentence, it was too late and I am paying big time. I lost my family, my wife and the opportunity to have a beautiful future together.<hr></blockquote><p>Hi IWC,<p><enabling my flame retardent jacket> .... I feel that you did the right thing. Albeit, I am so truly sorry you lost your family. There aren't words for how I'm sure you're feeling about that, but you gave your wife the truth and she was able to make decisions for herself regarding your marriage, you did the right thing, IMVHO.<p>To withhold the truth is a manipulation (lies of omission) and an exercise in controlling your spouse. If you wouldn't have offered her the truth there would have still been a wall between you two, keeping you from true intimacy.<p>Again, please find solice and be proud in that you were honest with your spouse and courageous enough to come clean. You did the right thing. <p>I'm sure you will find peace and contentment waiting on your horizon. Keep your head high and you won't miss it.<p>Love,
Jo

"...there would have still been a wall between you two, keeping you from true intimacy."<p>Most marriages where infidelity occur (confession or not) never achieve "true intimacy". Heck, many marriages where both have been faithful don't achieve "true intimacy". This obsession with total intimacy at all costs is really kind of sick. No wonder why the divorce rate is so high in the US. We're all hunting for the Holy Grail of intimacy, and when we don't achieve this fantasyland, then out the marriage goes. It does make lots of money for people writing relationship books though. <p>Confession almost always eliminates the opportunity (via divorce) to recover what is/was good in the relationship. It is a huge myth that people will find "true intimacy" with someone new after a divorce. Well, I take that back. They might, but it will be short-lived. Second and subsequent marriages supposedly fail 75% of the time. IMO, confessions destroy marriages, they don't save them. What might save a marriage is individuals taking responsibility for their behavior and taking action to correct it. That can be done without a confession. <p>"To withhold the truth is a manipulation (lies of omission) and an exercise in controlling your spouse."
Either person can leave at any time. I see no reason to give the so-called BS an excuse to leave, nor do I believe they are the ones who should be given sole decision making power to end the marriage. Some claim that confession is best so that the BS can help the WS, and vice versa. In reality, neither a BS or a WS is in a position to help each other after an affair. Everything I've read that encourages confession is a thinly veiled attempt to guilt a WS into allowing a BS to extract their pound of flesh prior to divorcing them. <p>Then there is the whole concept of "doing the right thing". You know, there is a pedestrian crosswalk right at the end of my street that crosses one of the busiest roads in Atlanta. The law says that cars must stop for pedestrians. I am in the "right" by crossing whenever I want, regardless of the car traffic. However, I'd probably get flattened. My point being that there is such a thing as being DEAD right--such is the case with confession. <p>One more thing...almost all of the people putting out literature in favor of confession have this in common...they have never been divorced. I hope that I-will-change does find solice. Not like it really matters to anyone who believes in confession. He got what was coming to him, right? That's the most important thing [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

I will change,<p>I'd like to put the confession thing aside for the moment. What's done is done. I've been coming over to this website for over 4 years now. What I've seen is that marriages don't end because of affairs and/or confessions. What I see is that there are issues in the marriage that have been at play long before an affair ever happens. IMO, there are very few people out there who are sex addicts or heartless serial cheaters. Most of these people are just coping with marital problems in an unconstructive way. Harley's methods might work to make affairs less likely BEFORE one happens. However, I don't believe much can be done for a marriage after the fact. <p>The main reason why I don't recommend confession is that it usually makes people want to stop trying to resolve their issues together. They spend so much time in so-called "recovery" that the underlying issues never get the attention they deserve for a very long time. Odds are, they haven't been getting any attention long before the affair too. So, in utter frustration, one or both decide to throw in the towel. No, keeping an affair a secret is not ideal or easy. I still think, that given a sincere wish for the WS to correct their behavior and adequate counseling, they can make sure a future affair does not happen. They can then work with their spouse to improve their marriage without doing anything more to jeapardize the relationship.

ts.....Most marriages where infidelity occur (confession or not) never achieve "true intimacy". Heck, many marriages where both have been faithful don't achieve "true intimacy". This obsession with total intimacy at all costs is really kind of sick. No wonder why the divorce rate is so high in the US. We're all hunting for the Holy Grail of intimacy, and when we don't achieve this fantasyland, then out the marriage goes. It does make lots of money for people writing relationship books though. <p>snl...jeez ts, occassionally through all that cyncism, and carefully disguised pain, you hit the nail right on the head....don't agree it is sick (surprise) but I think you described the landscape pretty accurately....especially liked the self-help observation, thinking of writing one myself to balance the obsessive notion every marriage is great if you just play nice....maybe you could write one about the policy of radical dishonesty... (you can take a joke I hope). I think I will comment on your post more fully later though.

ts....Confession almost always eliminates the opportunity (via divorce) to recover what is/was good in the relationship. <p>snl..So? The point is the truth is on the table, and I think it is safe to say most of us (including you) want to know if a spouse is unfaithful...correct? This is not about consequences, they will be whatever they will be, it is about honesty, and whether you have a right to decieve (by omission) someone who expects you not to...I say you don't have the right (although you have the ability to do so), and the act of concealing is far more aggressive than an affair itself. Further it reveals the secret holder (assuming they continue the marriage) as a sociopath, binding someone to them by way of secrecy, presumeably cause they want the benefits, and are unwilling to risk the loss....<p>ts....It is a huge myth that people will find "true intimacy" with someone new after a divorce. Well, I take that back. They might, but it will be short-lived. <p>snl...myth? No more than the attempt in the first marriage, just difficult in all marriages, because we are so ignorant of how to achieve it.<p>ts... IMO, confessions destroy marriages, they don't save them. What might save a marriage is individuals taking responsibility for their behavior and taking action to correct it. That can be done without a confession. <p>snl...you do need to take responsibility, that has nothing to do with confession, the confession part is so your spouse can leave you if they want, not to fix the marriage. The corollary is many beleive (and I do too) a marriage built on such a lie is hopelessly defective, cause it gives power to one over another, the power of knowing they decided whether the affair ended the marriage or not, whether they stay or not...it is unbalanced, you should also experience whether you are left or not by the bs.<p>...."To withhold the truth is a manipulation (lies of omission) and an exercise in controlling your spouse."....<p>ts...Either person can leave at any time. <p>snl...How so? The bs does not have all the information to make a fully informed decision, and that could be the deal breaker.<p>ts...I see no reason to give the so-called BS an excuse to leave, nor do I believe they are the ones who should be given sole decision making power to end the marriage. <p>snl...Wheeeeewww eeeee. That is about as blatantly a sociopathic statement as I have ever heard, and I know you are not such, what in the world possessed you to say that? give? GIVE, you think the bs needs the ws permission to make a decision so clearly important to them, not to live with an adulterer....cripes student, newsflash, EITHER party to a marriage can end it, no one needs permission, but they do need full disclosure to make a fully informed decision don't ya think?<p>ts...Some claim that confession is best so that the BS can help the WS, and vice versa. In reality, neither a BS or a WS is in a position to help each other after an affair. Everything I've read that encourages confession is a thinly veiled attempt to guilt a WS into allowing a BS to extract their pound of flesh prior to divorcing them.<p>ws...not from me you haven't read that (since I am a ws), but I won't dispute many bs (including mine in spades) wants their pound of flesh...and abuses the radical honesty of their ws, or spouses in general often do poorly with radical honesty, especially if it feels rejecting. <p>ts....Then there is the whole concept of "doing the right thing". You know, there is a pedestrian crosswalk right at the end of my street that crosses one of the busiest roads in Atlanta. The law says that cars must stop for pedestrians. I am in the "right" by crossing whenever I want, regardless of the car traffic. However, I'd probably get flattened. My point being that there is such a thing as being DEAD right--such is the case with confession.<p>snl...Yep, you might be killed (divorced), no argument....so what? Your skin is more important to you than your spouses right to dictate their own life? Too bad, you lose the marriage, such is life...don't wander anymore in relationships and you can avoid that particular life consequence.<p>ts...One more thing...almost all of the people putting out literature in favor of confession have this in common...they have never been divorced. <p>snl...Yeah, I noticed that too. Makes one wonder how someone who hasn't been there can know what others should do....and I suspect these books and programs guilt/coerce many people into staying longer than is healthy for them.<p>ts....I hope that I-will-change does find solice. Not like it really matters to anyone who believes in confession. He got what was coming to him, right? That's the most important thing.<p>snl...No the most important thing is he has given up the controlling behaviour of lieing...whether it cost him his marriage or not is irrelevant, it was gone anyways...but the chance he took was it could recover...and who knows may yet. But at least he will be a much better mate in the future, and set a terrific example of honesty and responsibility for his children...who then can have better marriages themselves....truth is like that, the ripples go on and on, in a good way....likewise secrets go on and on destroying people for generations.<p>ts...I'd like to put the confession thing aside for the moment. What's done is done. I've been coming over to this website for over 4 years now. What I've seen is that marriages don't end because of affairs and/or confessions. What I see is that there are issues in the marriage that have been at play long before an affair ever happens. <p>snl...Absolutely IWC, I agree with ts. Affairs do not end marriages, they are but symptons of the disease....<p>ts...IMO, there are very few people out there who are sex addicts or heartless serial cheaters. Most of these people are just coping with marital problems in an unconstructive way. Harley's methods might work to make affairs less likely BEFORE one happens. However, I don't believe much can be done for a marriage after the fact. <p>snl...Again I agree, I don't think most recoveries really last, or lead to passionate marriages, indeed some do, and that gives false hope re the odds they will....an affair should be a wake-up call to bs/ws alike to take a very hard look at what they really have before jumping kneejerk style into attempted recovery. You essentially have to start over, and few really do, they layer it with expectations, and such.<p>ts....The main reason why I don't recommend confession is that it usually makes people want to stop trying to resolve their issues together. They spend so much time in so-called "recovery" that the underlying issues never get the attention they deserve for a very long time.<p>snl...I agree and disagree, the truth has to come first, and if the two do the work to see they really even want to go on (most don't, they gloss over it)....but then there is a lot of obsession and focus on the affair and the bs pain...this is understandable, but unfortunate...and indeed interferes with the real work.... it often is the case that the affair and the problems are intertwined, and remorse guilt and such are not going to happen until the underlying issues resolved, this makes the whole thing very difficult, and why IMO people should just immediately divorce, and date each other without the expectations marriage puts between them...a radical approach I suppose, but would definitely clear the air for true recovery.<p>ts...Odds are, they haven't been getting any attention long before the affair too. So, in utter frustration, one or both decide to throw in the towel. No, keeping an affair a secret is not ideal or easy. I still think, that given a sincere wish for the WS to correct their behavior and adequate counseling, they can make sure a future affair does not happen. They can then work with their spouse to improve their marriage without doing anything more to jeapardize the relationship.<p>snl...true or not, no ws has that right, and the deception alone is reason enough to end the marriage, it is far more serious an offense than the affair itself. The fox cannot be the gatekeeper for the henhouse, no matter how supposedly motivated the fox is, breaks laws of the universe.....

OK, well back to the subject<p>I would have to say, yes, after over a decade after being divorced from my first husband over my involvement with another man, I feel extreme shame. I felt it then, and I feel it even more now. Especially now, as my husband cheated on me, I understand the pain that I caused as I have suffered it firsthand.<p>I feel even worse for my children, my two daughters from my first marriage. Actually, I feel bad for ME when it comes to them. I think my husband's nasty girlfriend did have a warped point when she told him (while begging him to leave me, and he refused because of our son) "You don't divorce your children, you only divorce your spouse." No, you don't divorce your children. You love them even more than ever. Except, after divorce, you only perpetuate the turmoil between their parents and either a) end up living as a single parent, struggling to raise them by yourself or b) sending them the bulk of your income and seeing them on weekends, providing you don't have to work weekends to support them. Lovely, huh? <p>I love my daughters as much as I did when I raised them. They were babies then--almost two, and almost four. Now they are teenagers. I have worked so hard over the years to send them child support, often sacrificing the comfort of my son from my current marriage to do so. I have blown my savings repeatedly in order to fly them out to Hawaii (where I lived) to visit me. Nevertheless, they are growing up without me. I forfeited my calling and the honor to be their mother--a real mother, not just a paycheck.<p>I was in that typical WS fog when I lost custody of them--you know, I demanded the divorce, but did nothing to make it happen because I really didn't know what I wanted. Well, my ex did file, and he managed to get custody. He, who had pissed me off so badly because he was content living in a squalor trailorhouse working a job for $5.25 an hour, living paycheck to paycheck, hanging our with his icky friends as a reward for a hard day's work. He got custody. It didn't occur to me that I was losing my girls forever, because in my warped vision, the relationship (with my ex) was just changing, not ending, meaning that I got to safely do whatever I wanted without him in my face, but we would still be buddies and he would be understanding of me. Yes, I know--you all hate me for that, but that was me years ago. It has taken me all the time for the whole picture to come together and for me to realize what an [censored] I was.<p>This has been a decade of turmoil to me. I have shed many tears over the end of one relationship, then struggling with and almost ending another.<p>The shame has come in phases. At first, it was purely emotional. Now it is an understanding, something that I can think through and say "Oh, yeah, that was really stupid, and this was really stupid, how could I have done this, and said that. . . but now I know. . ." <p>I don't feel quite forgiven yet--yeah, I am one of those Christians and proudly so. God forgives you automatically because He loves you--it's YOU that has to do the hard work and work through the repentance, however long that may take and however difficult that may be. You owe it to him. He gave you life, what you make out of it is what you give back to Him. I understand what one author wrote pertaining to "forgiving yourself." It means that you have the courage to admit the terrible truth to yourself (and to the people that you hurt) about your wrongs and face them, then embark on that journey to make restitution, again, however long that may take and whatever you have to do.<p>You know what was the worst, blackest moment for me out of all this? Not d-day. Not talking to my husband's girlfriend on the phone and listening to her lie to me. Not spending Valentine's day by myself while my husband spent it a Motel 6 with her, commiting disgusting sex acts. None of that was the worst.<p>It was the day that I had given birth to my son, the child I have with my present husband. My husband and I had had an earthshattering fight that morning, a really terrible one. But then I was used to it--our first year of marriage was volitile. We had spent it moving in and out of our house after having arguements, screaming at each other, dragging our friends into it all.<p>That day, I fell at work (I was trying to be hardcore, I tried to keep up soldering despite my pregancy) and broke my water that afternoon. I was in the army then, my first sergeant took me to the hospital. I called my husband's company and left a nasty message with his duty NCO that I was having the kid and if he felt so inclined, he might want to show up to the hospital, but if not, to he!! with him. <p>He did show up, just in time to be told that our kid was in extreme distress. I was not even having contractions. As I was being prepped for an emergency c-section, that's when I felt a black, horrible feeling creep over me. The anthesthesia knocked me out, I just layed in the nurse's arms and cried. It was a revelation that told me that I was due all of this misery, that I had earned it. It was my just reward for all I had done, and that my life was evened up now. I had made others suffer, now I was suffering.<p>What was happening should not be happening, I felt. All I had done was trade one life for another, I had not been grateful and counted my blessings with the life that I had had and I had just turned my back on it all to pursure another. I mostly thought about my two little daughters, so far away from me as I was about to give birth to another man's baby, who, for all I knew at the time, was dying. In essence, their half-brother. But did they choose for any other this to happen? They were so sweet and innocent themselves, so beloved to me, and yet I had foolishly traded them in for what I selfishly wanted for myself, which had turn out to be fluff. Nothing. And here, I was hurting yet another person, my unborn son, who had not, either, asked for this chaos. I was preparing myself with the reality that he might die, and I knew that it was my justice if he did.<p>I really can't explain that feeling. It was intense, and it was real. I snapped out of it the moment my husband leaned over me, holding our newborn son, who was whole and healthy, but a bit premature.<p>You know how long it took for the three of us to really feel like a family? Years. I couldn't help thinking at every moment during that time about the family that I had left behind, that I had once criticized. My husband and I both loved our child very much--I had a relationship with him, he had a relationship with him, and we had a stand-offish, from a distance love affair with each other, but it wasn't until recently that we really became a family. We were just two people who had a baby together and lived together.<p>And no, my ex doesn't know how I feel. He doesn't know how ashamed I am. I am not capable of talking to him (that was part of the reason I left him) about things like that. His behemoth wife would be standing there monitoring, anyway. She would be taking notes for the next time we went to court--she lives for this.<p>So, yes, this is my story, this is how I feel.

Oh, yeah, I guess I am over here on this board today because I have to check, from time to time, on the friends I made while I was here--I hope they are all well and happy as can be.<p>We are in recovery. I am keeping my fingers crossed that this continues.

Dear Bernzini,<p>Oh my GOD, you have hit on so many nerves for me tonight - and how RIGHT your words feel to me.<p>I too traded one life for another, although my kids were older... and I told myself, and was told by *professionals* that I was doing all the right things, because I couldn't save them if I couldn't save myself. So I saved myself, or so I thought.<p>I have spoken so much to the shame I felt when I had an affair in my first marriage. That feels like a million years ago -- in fact, it has been three years. And since then, I have gone through a divorce, moved 4000 miles away from my family, and married another. He is a loving H, and my problem is not with him AT ALL. His is truly the kind of man I needed to heal. But... sadly, now that I have healed a bit, I am left with the residual of what I did to get here, namely, leaving my children with their father. In particular, my son, who is going to be 18 this year. He was 16 when I left (my daughters were both over 18, but not yet very adult-like), anyway, my son might have chosen to be with his father anyway, but I didn't give him the choice. He could not come here due to immigration concerns (special schools, etc.). <p>I have spent hours upon hours in therapy, in journalling, in talking to friends (both cyber and RL) and even joined a second wives site that had others like me. <p>None of it brings the peace I seek.<p>Shame seems so futile. I can't do a thing to "fix" it. Time has passed, lives have changed, new lives have entered the picture. <p>To me, at this point it doesn't matter whether I should have told about my affair back then or not. My ex said I shouldn't have, and he wouldn't have cheated to get me back. How do I know... seriously. If I had to do it all over, I would tell, but only because I can't keep stuff in. I've tried. I can't. <p>I don't know a lot, but what I do know is that shame engulfs me... and it feels like I can't get out from inside of the pit. I want to get past it, but can't seem to do it. Something is missing, and I haven't found it yet. When I do, I will grab it and hold on for dear life. This is not a life, it is torture.<p>Now that is not to say that I don't have moments of joy -- but it's sure not often. We certainly beat ourselves up enough for everyone...

whew bernie, that must have been hard to write, but a good thing I suspect....sometimes we are harder on ourselves than anyone ever could be, and we get stuck in regret and self-flagellation...the decisions you made in that tough place in your life were made as best you could...what counts each day is how you live the rest of your life...that story is unwritten, be sure and write it well....life is funny, sometimes the worst things turn out to be the best, don't be so quick to think you erred....and maybe you could have gotten your girls, but you didn't, just continue to be the best mom you can, and set a good example....there is no need to finish anything with your exh, you have another life, that is where the focus of such energies belong... you will be ok, if you want to be...

You are right, Sheryl, shame seems so futile, there is nothing you can do about it. . .<p>But then again, you can, you already have taken the first step: you have admitted the truth to yourself. It does take time and experience to heal, and you will. For instance, you have offered a great help to so many people on this board, myself included, and have bestowed a positive presence here. You have made a lot of people feel better about themselves. That's a good thing.<p>Shame to me a more of an "activity" now--rather than be depressed over my misdeeds, I feel an urgency to heal what I have done. There is nothing accomplished by wallowing in it and feeling sorry for myself. For one, my experience has given me a clearer picture on what's going on with my husband, what he's thinking, how I should be reacting to him. If I hadn't fallen first, there would be no way to mend this infidelity because I would have no understanding of it. <p>And my kid, my gosh, I am proud of how he is turning out--I never overlook the chance to tell him I love him, because in the past, I neglected these opportunities. I try so hard to make every moment I spend with him a good one. I honestly have to brag about him, because he is so wonderful. He is getting to be a little macho man now, he kind of gets tired of me fawing all over him--it's not cool. I can't kiss him at the bus stop anymore. Hadn't I lost my motherhood to my girls, I guess I would take the honor of motherhood for granted.<p>My daughters--I think that God sees their hardships and is with them. My oldest is so mature, wise and emotionally mature, for her age. She is a real friend to me, despite the distances, we have a fantastic realationship. It tickles me to see her a happy teenager, loving school, gushing over boys, enjoying her friends. A normal, happy teen (I wasn't.) She also has an unwavering moral compass that amazes me. She is one of those "good kids" that you hear about.<p>My youngest daughter, we struggle a little. She was the most betrayed--she was once my little cabbage patch doll that I carried everywhere my hip, then all of the sudden, the closeness we had was ripped from her--at the age of two, when nothing bad should happen to a person. This is the person that I feel the most guilt towards, this is the person that I hurt the most. <p>Nevertheless, I am so proud of her. She is extremely talented and imaginative--if I could do anything for her, it would be to encourage her and help her realize how valuable a person she is. <p>Feeling sad and sorry for myself is pretty much an unproductive behavior, therefore.<p>Sad-n-Lonely, you say it must have been hard for me to write all of this. No, not really hard--except that while I sit here, I have a ton of laundry to do on my day off, and bathrooms to clean. I have faced up to all of this a long time ago, and by sharing my experience I can probably help someone. But, like I said, I don't feel sorry for myself, I don't hate myself--self-flagellation, I think you said. It really doesn't serve any purpose to do that at this point. Yes, it is very necessary to face the truth about yourself and feel sorry for what you have done, but you move on and try to use your experiences for good. I feel more sorry for the people that I have hurt, and that motivates me to try to help fix what I have caused.

Thank you for the lovely response, Bernzini.<p>Yes, I, like you, do not spend moment after moment thinking about shame... or beating myself up about it, but certainly, at times like these (as in: writing about it) it is foremost in my mind. <p>My children, my son in particular, is the ever-present thought that I wrestle with... I have no idea how to "fix" it, which I mentioned above. Going back at this point is impossible, unless I chose divorce. I don't want another divorce under my belt, not to mention, I LOVE my husband. Whether, in hindsight, I **shoulda** taken more time, made better plans, or whatever, doesn't matter now, as I AM MARRIED.<p>Amazing, isn't it?<p>Boy, if we could bottle this stuff - this hindsight - we could make a million bucks. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

snl,<p>"I see no reason to give the so-called BS an excuse to leave, nor do I believe they are the ones who should be given sole decision making power to end the marriage."<p>Why do I say this? Because I don't think the worst thing that can happen in a marriage is infidelity. There is a belief that the BS can be the biggest rat-[censored] on the planet, as long as they don't have sex with someone else. The idea that they are some kind of moral authority because their spouse had sex with someone else is just ridiculous, IMO.<p>A confession does not make a marriage balanced. An affair makes the marriage unbalanced, and a confession makes it worse. <p>Total honesty after the fact does not help anyone. The WS does need to be honest with themselves though, so they can make sure not to cheat again. Not for someone else's benefit, but for their own.