Nellie,<p>From what I hear, most people in Europe actually work a 9-5 job. Meaning there isn't the constant pressure to do overtime. I think it is France that has a mandatory 6 weeks of vacation for everyone. Germany is less, maybe 4 weeks. <p>The reason why noone has done a dissertation on multiple marriages is probably because adequate records are not kept when people get married and those records are hard to sift through on a large scale. <p>I'm afraid there are alot of people who would honestly go over the deep end if it really sunk in how low their odds really were. Then again, there are always those people who don't mind racking up a handful of divorces either. I've never understood what the big deal was in having that "marriage" label. After awhile it does get ridiculous. My guess is that some people just like saying they are married. Maybe they don't have much else going on in their life, and as long as they can say they are married (to someone, anyone, who cares?) then they feel special. <p>funny thing is, I could get married tomorrow if I wanted to. I have no doubt that there are a ton of men who would marry me--that is--if all I cared about was being married to SOMEONE and didn't worry much about being divorced again.<p>JL,<p>"Frankly, women have a lot to learn about the use of power and authority, but I am sure with time they will do well."<p>Oh yea. I forgot that you believe that biblical stuff about men being in charge and all that. There have been female leaders--of other countries. They are prone to the same flaws as men. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Once women get over the idea that everyone has to friggin' LIKE them all the time, then they do just fine.<p>"Don't close any doors,but you are right you would be foolish to rush into something. I don't know much, but I do know that you won't do that."<p>I didn't rush into the second one, and you see where that got me. Maybe I should try lying and rushing into a relationship for a change...JUST KIDDING!! On the other hand, maybe not. It worked for my second H. He managed to get support for his career and school out of me. I'm just not as charming and as charismatic as he is. I guess having a conscience also kind of sucks. I'm still kicking myself for confessing. Shoulda used him for my education first, like he did to me. Just put all his threats and degrading behavior out of my head and kept my eye on the prize--then dump him after graduation. Nice thought, but probably couldn't do it. Maybe his next wife will deal him that hand. Time will tell. Tell ya what, I won't be the one putting my cards on the table first in the future. Whoever ends up with me (if there is anyone) is gonna have to pony up with something major to convince me he is the real deal. I know, not fair. I just know how I am.<p>[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>JL,
I don't believe most people make better marital decisions a second, third, whatever time around. I think the rare few (less than 25%) that manage to make a second or subsequent marriage succeed most likely didn't have much changing to do in the first place. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I guess I'm one of those rare few who made a better marital decision the 2nd time around. I think, although H#2 is just better all around anyway - I had much more clearly defined what I wanted and needed out of a marriage which enabled me to make a better choice the second time around. Know thyself.<p>Anyway - I just wanted to say "Thank you, TS!" You have done an excellent job articulating many issues and consistently defending your position. I agree with you 100%. Maybe after you get your PhD, you should consider writing a book! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess I'm fortunate to be one of those women who never wanted kids in the first place - so there was never a choice for me to make (at least not necessarily).I have always believed strongly in paying my own way and my ego is wrapped up in my own accomplishments (which I think I got from my mother - who thrice refused alimony when she divorced my father).<p>However, I agree with your statement about a lack of opportunities for women of breeding age. Most people simply assume because I'm "that" age (30) that I'm gonna start plopping out babies any day now.<p>Anyway - I just wanted to say thanks for so eloquently posting what I've felt forever. And, you should really consider that book! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hmmm... AGoodGuy, you mistook something I said, so for the record I would like to clarify. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:
<strong>...I think that it is unfortunate that so many women stay at home while the man becomes the breadwinner, only to be without a career if/when a divorce occurs. BTDT seems to be one such example, and of course there are many others...
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps you derived this conclusion from my post on page 4 of this thread which stated:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> by me:
<strong>...The thing is, it would be really funny if it weren't so sad... It is happening right before our eyes on these boards... Women who have devoted their time and lives into their families and H's being abusive withholding money or affection and the wife wants to leave, but no job, no skills, no money. Grrrrrr!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I did not mean to imply that this happened to me. I am a married mom of 3 who happens to enjoy a career. One in college and special needs twins in elementary school.<p>I agree with TS that expectations of women's work in the home are greater than that of men in our society. I know that there are PLENTY of men who do housework and help their wives with the kids--my husband is one of them!<p>I still continue to enjoy my career working graveyard shift and working at home during the day--when I'm awake... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Although I am not climbing the corporate ladder as fiercely as TS, now that she is focused and redirected in her life pursuits. No doubt, TS is jaded because of her marriages, the people in her social circles, society, and her experiences and perceptions of each, etc... I don't have any problems with that. Our perceptions of what is happening to us--how others are treating us, shapes our attitudes!<p>As long as she is happy. She is focused on doing something for herself now, and to me, that's cool!<p>I think that a wife can and should be focused on doing things for herself, like TS stated, together with a supportive spouse. Otherwise, resentment sets in. I am in favor of LOTS of "Mommie-Time-Outs" and weekends away. I also agree with full-time moms that it IS work and much more difficult to separate out personal time unless you purposefully TAKE it.<p>I am and always will be one of those sort of selfish moms, who can also be selfless--you just have to find a balance. If mom is happy, then my family has a chance at being happy! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

And since this is Marriage Builders, after all, I must add that my involvement in the A is what helped me to have a more respectful attitude toward marriage and wanting to make mine work. It's a choice...<p>We all have daily choices to make! We all struggle with sinful appetites and thoughts. It's about daily choices in healthy directions.<p>But, if we disagree on the "rules" then there IS no debate, really. All we can do is respect each other's points of view because we all perceive our own lives differently.

BTDT,<p>Thanks for the clarification, I guess I did misinterpret your original post [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>BTW, I hope you realize that I was not making a value judgement on SAHMs (or SAHDs [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). I think (I know) how much work it is to keep a household running and to take care of kids. I greatly respect the efforts of all SAHXs.<p>My point was that (IMO) many SAHX's get screwed if/when they get divorced, because their careers will have been on a backburner for too long. So all I was saying is that that was unfortunate.<p>Take care,<p>AGG

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
Resilient,<p>Rule #26 in the list of eternal truths:<p>all decisions have to be made in the absence of total information, or with imperfect.<p>to absolve your responsibility just because you have imperfect information is not acceptable.<hr></blockquote><p>SUCKY RULE ..... when it comes around again, it needs to be veto'd out. JMVVHO

"BTW, I hope you realize that I was not making a value judgement on SAHMs (or SAHDs ). I think (I know) how much work it is to keep a household running and to take care of kids. I greatly respect the efforts of all SAHXs."<p>Just for the record, I respect SAHXs a great deal too! Many people come to other conclusions when I say that I would not want to be a full-time SAHM. Not because I find it demeaning (not in the slightest), but because I find my work very satisfying. I wish I could have both though, and don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to have both.<p>As JL noted, I AM jealous of some (maybe many) working dads because they can work AND have a family. I'm not so naive to think there isn't alot of juggling going on by those fathers. Not nearly as much as working moms though, and yes, I'm envious. I've done what I can to support flexibility for both parents in the workplace. <p>"My point was that (IMO) many SAHX's get screwed if/when they get divorced, because their careers will have been on a backburner for too long. So all I was saying is that that was unfortunate."<p>And that is all I was trying to say too.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
<strong>As JL noted, I AM jealous of some (maybe many) working dads because they can work AND have a family. I'm not so naive to think there isn't alot of juggling going on by those fathers. Not nearly as much as working moms though, and yes, I'm envious. I've done what I can to support flexibility for both parents in the workplace</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Just realize that there are exeptions to every rule. I don't know that it is necessarily gender based as much as it is personality based. I for one do 97.6% of the juggling of my career while my children's mother does the other 2.4%. <p>While married my X was more of the "Father" figure while I was and still am the more nurturing "Mother" figure.<p>Just my .02 based upon my life experience.