After 9 monts of trying to save my Marriage, a not so good Plan A, a much better, although short Plan B, and finally giving up after WS left me 3 times for this OM, my stbx appears to maybe be starting to come out of the Fog.<p>She has been alittle more friendly the last couple of days, and this morning when I dropped off the children, we actually had a normal conversation.
What threw me is that she made some comment about not being 100% sure that our marriage is over, I did not reply as this was the first good conversation, mainly about the children, we have had in many, many months. She is still with OM, she has given no indication that there is problems with OM (in fact just the opposite), no indication that she wants to work on things, etc. Just the comment that she was not 100% sure she wanted the marriage over, she is learning things on her own, and needs more time. She also said she didn't expect me to wait for her and that I should continue to move on in my life without her.<p>Although I still love her, I have given up on this marriage, I am no longer putting any effort into trying to fix things between us. There has been so much hurt.<p>Have anyone seen this, is it just confusion on her behalf? Is she getting scared as our divorce day is approaching, is it that since I am finally letting go it is starting to have an effect on her? The last thing I want to do is to get hurt again, I am finally recoving and having more good days than bad, I don't want to go backwards however I do still love her. I guess that I just continue to let things go and have no hope for the marriage, but on the other hand I think about what could be if things worked out, I certainly did not do the best Plan A. I am not sure where to go from here, I had planned on trying to start dating and moving my life forward without her. Any advise would be appreciated.
Confused,
Dave

Dave,
I feel the same way. I just posted under the subject "need interpretation of MC".
My H said the same thing last night. "I saw a glimmer of Hope last week". I answered what? This is after I'm finally comfortable with my decision to divorce, that there really is no hope for the relationship, and he interprets my independence as hope. I really don't understand and hope someone else can explain it to both of us.

Newly,
Thanks for your reply... strange that it seems no matter what happens you find someone here going though the same thing.. I guess that is good, but bad that someone else has the same issues.
I also posted under GQII forum,same topic, You may want to follow that one. I check out your post, keep in touch.
Take care,
Dave

Dave I finally got divorced last month and I still love my X it is very difficult to let go especially when one truely loved the other. It sounds to me that you have pretty much made up your mind the best thing you can do is go foward and let time heal your broken spirit. To keep looking behind you will cause you alot of doubt and pain. <p>I now have custody of my son and share custody of my daughter when I drop off my little girl sometimes my X gives me a look like she is very sorry for what happen but sometimes no matter how hard you try you just can't go back. There are thingd that one just can't forget or get over. So move on look foward take care of your children and in time you'll know that it was the only option you truely had.<p>Carl

Dave I'm very sorry for what your going thru right now. I too had those feelings when I finally gave up on my M. Even though I still loved my xWW, I knew that continuing in such a destructive M (with her sexual addiction to men that were inmates) was not good for me and our daughters.<p>I hope that you don't think I'm pushing you towards divorce, but sometimes we have to do what we know is right for us and our children, even though it hurts us deeply to do so.<p>Good luck and God bless.<p>Joe

Dave,<p>I couldn`t help but reply to this post, being I have been through exactly what you now have, as well..<p>My ex was gone, (in deep fog) for 3 YRS!!! and this past NOv, (to the day) he came back, asking to try again, and I was a bit leary.. (sp?) and was not as receptive as he thought I`d be.. it was all too untrusting, and it had been a long time, and I feel during that time, we all loose something.. and even if we try again, it is NEVER the same.. it takes time to rebuild and (I feel) you will always have doubt, and mistrust that it could happen again.. so I was a bit layed back and distant for a time, in which he backed off again.. <p>BUT!!! the answer to all of this, (in my situation) is that my ex was/is seeing his OW, who "IS" still married and never left her H for my H, and so he ahs been being played for, for 3 yrs now.. she keeps him on a string like a puppet, and he came to this conclusion, as well.. but I feel he (for some STUPID reason) has hopes with her, because he never really got his chance.. and I`m sure she is telling him she is not happy in her marriage.. (FOR 3 YRS NOW) and he keep the door open, just in case she DOES leave her H..<p>SOOOOOO! the out come is, that I told him no more, I`

Dave,<p>I couldn`t help but reply to this post, being I have been through exactly what you now have, as well..<p>My ex was gone, (in deep fog) for 3 YRS!!! and this past NOv, (to the day) he came back, asking to try again, and I was a bit leary.. (sp?) and was not as receptive as he thought I`d be.. it was all too untrusting, and it had been a long time, and I feel during that time, we all loose something.. and even if we try again, it is NEVER the same.. it takes time to rebuild and (I feel) you will always have doubt, and mistrust that it could happen again.. so I was a bit layed back and distant for a time, in which he backed off again.. <p>BUT!!! the answer to all of this, (in my situation) is that my ex was/is seeing his OW, who "IS" still married and never left her H for my H, and so he ahs been being played for, for 3 yrs now.. she keeps him on a string like a puppet, and he came to this conclusion, as well.. but I feel he (for some STUPID reason) has hopes with her, because he never really got his chance.. and I`m sure she is telling him she is not happy in her marriage.. (FOR 3 YRS NOW) and he keep the door open, just in case she DOES leave her H..<p>SOOOOOO! the out come is, that I told him no more, I`m done, and I have to admit, I did loose alot of respect and feeling for this man, whom I once idlized, adored, and loved so dearly.. he was the man I wanted to grow old with, and to share watching our daughter grow, marry and have grand kids with.. the whole gamit.. but now I see too much time has passed and he is still not sure what he wants.. I think it is MLC, my self.. but I am not looking at this, any more, as any chance left in H__!.. it is over, and if he SHOULD ever change his mind, and come around again, (one NEVER knows) I know I did everything to prove we COULD HAVE made it for life.. it is his loss, and I now feel sorry for him.. he is going to grow very lonely, and he ain`t getting any younger.. <p>he is alone now, she is "still" married, and this is the first time he has no one beside him in his whole life.. so I also feel he only came back because he was lonely, and couldn`t handle it.. NOT A "REASON" TO RETURN.. very confused man, and until any WS can come to REAL terms with reality again.. then they won`t live a normal life, again either..<p>well good luck to you... stand tall, and live it up!!! ok..<p>AV

AV/Joe/Carl, thanks for the great advise. The funny thing was I just posted the other day that I was finally letting go and moving on, then this set back, here is an update...<p>Well today the wicked bixch of the east was back on her broom. I caught hell for being nice this morning when dropping of the kids. All i did was say hi and ask how things were going. So much for being friendly.... Why do I even put myself though this... I must enjoy being hurt....maybe I am the one in the fog... Now I feel like shxt today. I know that I need to go back to Plan C, I was doing so well, I guess there will be alot of ups and downs yet. This must be how a drug addict feels, you go for a long time without it(her), you start doing better and then one hit of the drug and you fell like you are back to square one. I guess I need to treat myself like I have an addiction and just stay the hexl away from her. Thanks for letting me vent.<p>Another valuable lession learned.. don't get suckered in by false hope... I will take your advise and continue my Plan C. STBX just called my office phone and cell phone while I was typing this, probably to apoligze... no, let me take that back, probably to blame me for her outburst.. anyway I didn't answer the call and she didn't leave a voice mail. I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sick of this, I could never imagine treating another human like she treats me, what is wrong with her... sometimes I have to remind her that she has children as I truely think she forgets, she has 3 weekends and 1 full week planned for vacations with OM, none include the kids, thank God! I think a need to go for a walk outside and cool down.
Dave

Dave the only one that can stop the verbal abuse cycle is yourself. Once you start to make plans to go foward with yourlife without your stbx you'll find that there is still a life out there for people like ourselves. I still have my bad days but what this whole process has taught me is that one's happiness must come from within. Do things that make you and your children happy. <p>Carl

Dave,<p>My experience was that when things were going bad in la la land, she was always mad at me. When things were going well, she was nice. At one point I thought things were improving between us. We were having productive conversations with no fighting and things were looking pretty good. I found out later that things in la la land were wonderful and that they were planning on getting a place together. So much for any real progress.<p>You've already learned the lesson though.... Don't get your hopes too high. Sorry I don't have better news, but looking back after being divorced for eight months, I let things drag on longer than I should have.<p>Good luck.

Your welcome Dave,

Don`t let her suck you into her web of guilt.. thats all it is..<p>look at the possitive side.. she may be going through such stress for all (her) the wrong choices she made, and all your NICENESS is making her crazy, seeing what she LOST, YOU!!<p>I have to admit, I do still have hope, even after three long yrs.. but very little, now.. my ex is acting like a school boy, wimping for some one that is stringing him along.. the old, "always want what you CAN`T HAVE" syndrum.. <p>I now KNOW it is best to leave it alone, and let them ALL learn for them selves, by thier own mistakes, what they did, and had and lost.. a real shame but a crude lesson thats needs being taught.. <p>I hope this brings some thought for a better day Dave...<p>smile.. BECAUSE SHE IS MISERABLE... I`m aure of it.. or she wouldn`t be acting that way!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>take care...<p>AV

Thanks guys/gals, I am going to continue to move forward, enough is enough..I will not fall into this "trap" or "web" again. I guess you really have to let them learn the hard way on their own, and then it is probably too late, sad, but true.
If things were so great for her, why would she been so mean, grumpy, miserable, etc all the time.
She is also on anti-depression medication, as I am, I know why I am on it but if he is her sole mate and she is suppose to be so happy now, then why the meds?
Take care, thanks for being there for me.
Dave

Hi DAve-<p>When I read your post yesterday I immediately started to respond, but felt I was too negative so I didn't send it in favor of sitting on it a bit and thinking it over. Now I read today and see how things have already changed.<p>What I was going to say yesterday was that My X often would come around being overly friendly, claiming to have doubts, feelings, etc. Usually this happened when I had been making good progress at moving on, was happy, etc. Then I would take it as a sign that maybe there was hope only to be let down and hurt again. At first he knew where I was effected and I saw how it empowered him, then as time went on and I learned more, I kept my feelings to myself. It took away some of his power, but I was still getting hurt. As you already know this is a process. As time went on I started looking at things for what they really are, keeping my guard up, and protecting myself. <p>Guess what? We have been divorced for 2 months and he is still doing it. He did it just the other night in fact, coming over offering to help me out with some things around the house and then suggesting we have a bon fire with the kids. When he left I felt some of those familiar twinges of hope again, but I cut them off right away. I reminded myself that if the OW was in town he would never do it and that when she is in town, I go from being his best friend to his crazy, obsessed wife. I no longer play into his games and it really has helped me. <p>I am starting to ramble here, but what I am trying to say is that all too often the WS sense that we are moving on and although they have no intention of being with us, they don't want to lose us either. You can't control them, but you can control you. Focus on you. No matter what happens you have to look out for you. Far too many of us worry more about our WS's feelings than our own and it only hurts us.<p>Take care and God bless!
K

Hi K,
Thanks for your post, that makes alot of sense. It is stange how there is some much in common with the action of BS, it is almost like you can predict what is going to happen. I get "suckered" in to feeling sorry for her alot, but once I get trapped,then I get hurt. The result is ALWAYS the same. I have to learn not to fall for this, not to feel sorry for her, it is just a trap, she created this situation, I have tried to help her out so many times, I have provide so much financially support to her, $2K a month, plus $300 for her car payment, + $140 for preschool, in addition I
used to always give her extra money when she needed it - all she does is spend this on OM, he has very little income..nothing is saved for the kids future (by her) Again, I feel sorry for her when she comes to me that she doesn't have money for this or that I there I am to bail her out, and once I do then it is back to getting on her broom and riding off with OM. All this is in the process of changing.. I am going to court to have her alimony dropped ( I signed the seperation agreement before I was aware of the A), all of her insurance (health, life, dental, vision) will terminate on June 03, and I am going to try to get my child support reduced do to the fact that she has failed to even look for work. I also want to add a provision that she must save 20% of the child support for the childrens education, today she save 0. Too busy spending it on weekend get aways with OM. I am rambling now.... anyway, I appreciate your post, it really help me,
Take care,
Dave

Way to go Dave, that is an excellent plan of action and I sincerely hope that you do not fall for her 'poor li'l ol' me' routine, and follow thru with it.<p>I too beleive that we BS's are/were in a 'fog' of our own because of all the crap we put up with from of WS's. It's one thing to forgive a WS that is truly remorseful and , despite the pain of withdrawl from OP, is willing to do all that is possible to heal the M, and another where the WS is so totally disrespectful of the BS that he/she continues to be with OP.<p>If it's any consolation Dave, the vast majority of us BS's experienced that 'fog' you are talking about. The difference I beleive between a BS's 'fog' and a WS's 'fog', is that our 'fog' has a noble purpose which is the healing of our M's and of our families, while the WS's 'fog' is nothing but thoughtless selfishness.<p>Keep us updated and may God grant you the strength, health, and wisdom to do what is right for you and your loved ones. Take care my friend.<p>Joe<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Dave,<p>You already got some great responses, and I agree that this seems to be the norm for post-divorce situations.<p>I think it is caused by the fact that the WS get very comfy during the months prior to separation/divorce, because they get the best of both worlds (spouse at home trying to meet their needs, OP meeting their other needs). Then, when separation/divorce occurs, they start worrying that the spouse will move on, and they may end up all alone if the OP doesn't "work out". So they get panicky, and I think their behavior goes anywhere from being nice (when they want you to hang on) to being pi$$y (when they're angry that you may not hang on).<p>My ex has/is been doing the same thing, and I learned to try to ignore it (not always successful). She actually told some people that she was angry that I ended up filing for divorce, despite the fact that she was out of the house for six months, refused to even consider reconciliation, and continued to pursue her OM. Go figure.<p>I too believe that the best course fo action is to move on, without looking back. I think it's very hard, I know I'm struggling sometimes, but from what I've seen, plus all the other posters who've been through it, it seems like the best approach. It's just funny that everytime I seem to get into a good groove, she comes around and confuses the heck out of me...<p>AGG

Hey Joe and AGG,
thanks for the replies, I am gland I am not the only BS that has been in the fog. I guess if you did not have the emotional attachement and knowing what is best for your family, you would never tolerate this behaviour from another individual. It baffles my mind that this person, who I still love, can treat me with such disrespect. In addition, how can you put antoher person above your kids, my stbxw left when our son was only 6 months old, for the last 9 months see only wants to take them for 6 overnights a month... that blows me away.<p>I know what I have to do, the problem is going to be not to get pulled in when she gives me some ray of hope, I think I have learned that this is just false hope and I will end up hurt again. I think this is what you do when you want to save the marriage more than anything, you latch on to the slight ray of hope but after being burned a few hunderd times, you learn to keep your hands out of the fire. I guess you will now when there is true hope of reconcilation but you can't wait for it as it may never happen, you just go forwad and don't look back, if the WS ever comes out of the fog and wants true reconcilation then you cross that bridge but until then you don't worry about it because it very well may never happen.
Take care, have a good night, I sorry you guys are in a similiar situation, it sucks but what doesn't kill you will make you stonger. I know I have learned so much from this and it has brought me alot closer to my children.
Take care,
Dave

davepr,<p>You posted:
"thanks for the replies, I am gland I am not the only BS that has been in the fog. I guess if you did not have the emotional attachement and knowing what is best for your family, you would never tolerate this behaviour from another individual. It baffles my mind that this person, who I still love, can treat me with such disrespect. In addition, how can you put antoher person above your kids, my stbxw left when our son was only 6 months old, for the last 9 months see only wants to take them for 6 overnights a month... that blows me away.
I know what I have to do, the problem is going to be not to get pulled in when she gives me some ray of hope, I think I have learned that this is just false hope and I will end up hurt again. I think this is what you do when you want to save the marriage more than anything, you latch on to the slight ray of hope but after being burned a few hunderd times, you learn to keep your hands out of the fire. I guess you will now when there is true hope of reconcilation but you can't wait for it as it may never happen, you just go forwad and don't look back, if the WS ever comes out of the fog and wants true reconcilation then you cross that bridge but until then you don't worry about it because it very well may never happen."<p>Well, I think you answered alot of your own questions. Seems like your W is just a plain old fence-sitter. They seem to love being able to CONTROL things in their lives, that by all accounts are completely out of control. <p>My personal opinion is that if your S has an affair, and was previously a good S, then you should try for a period of time to give your S the space he or she needs to find their way. I believe that your love should be able to support your S through a bad patch in their lives. After all, didn't we all marry for better or worse? Hence, Plan A fits in perfectly with showing and demonstrating loving care for the WS, and respect for the relationship and marriage by our fervent desire to make whatever personal improvements are necessary.<p>Yet, I also believe that there may come a time when you can no longer afford to give your S the benefit of the doubt. Recognize that your WS is truly in angst and likely very conflicted, but the continuation of the fence-sitting begins to harm the emotional well-being of the BS. This is truly the time for Plan B, or as Dobson says....letting the cage door open and letting your WS go free. Recognize that your WS may go and never look back.<p>This time is meant to give the WS a taste of REALITY and CONSEQUENCES for their actions and also their inactions. You are really giving your W neither of these. Although you say you are in Plan B and Plan C, seems like you may still be meeting way too many of her needs, so consequences and realities are not affecting her at all.<p>How to prevent yourself getting sucked back in by the WS who still copntinues the affair is a sticky wicket to manage. The BS usually HOPES and STRONGLY DESIRES restoration and reconciliation. We latch onto any little thing the WS does or doesn't do to sustain that hope. I know I sure did. How to manage this is to be critically honest with yourself, to avoid the "BS fog." What a term - I had never thought of it that way at all. But, you must not pin any hopes or aspirations on inuendoes made by the WS, gossip you've heard about your S and the OP, how sad the WS looks, etc. None of this means one thing in terms of restoration of your marriage. In hindsight, I would say that one thing that is a good predictor of reconciliation is that at some point, the WS makes the EFFORT and the OVERTURES. Talk is cheap, and a half-baked reconciliation is like planting good seed on rocky groud. It won't be able to develop lasting roots. In my opinion, your WS must demonstrate initiative and effort towards the reconciliation, or it is just another show of selfishness that the WS wants to keep the BS as a back-up plan.<p>Give your W the time and space to decide. You need to stay away from her as much as possible. Think a really good Plan B. Re-read SAA! Let her know you may be open to discussion of reconciliation if she is willing to do what it takes. Stop meeting as many of her needs as you legally, ethically and morally can. Do the right things for your children. Focus on self-care and self-nuturing. In time, the trueness, or lack thereof, of your W's heart will be revealed to you.<p>Best wishes, Desiree

Hi Desiree, thanks for the feedback, you are right, I still meet too many of her needs.I am working on cutting the financial support, that should be a big one for her. I have been sucker in to giving her extra money when she needs it, she already gets $2K a month. Once I give her the extra month she is back on her broom and treating me like shXt. That is coming to an end, I have not been giving her any extra and I stopped her alimony, although I still need to go back to court to get the alimony terminated (I was not aware of the A when I signed the seperation agreement) I have also given her 30 day written notice that her health, dental, life, and vision insurance will be terminated. That will leave her $800 less a month between the two.
She has not gone back to work, her, her friends and OM hang out at her apart pool everyday, sounds like fun. In addition, I have the kids all but 6 nights a monhts, we are suppose to have them 50/50, I am not complianing for having the kids, I love having them here and I do much better when they are around, but she has it fairly easy.
I hate being mean to her but I do need to show her reality. She came into my house to talk when she dropped off the children yesterday, I didn't say anything but immediately after she left sent her an e-mail re-stating my position for her to not come into my house when dropping them off, I get set back everytime i see her, I am trying to avoid seeing her as much as possible. She always wears some very "sexy" when she knows I am going to see her, not sure why she does this, maybe to hurt me some more.. she is good at that.
I did not a Plan B letter with the help of Jen Harley. I don't call her at all, the FS is in the process of cutting back... I just need to avoid the contact when we exchange the kids.<p>I do love her and want her back more than anything in my life but she has caused me so much pain and has been unbelievable cruel to me, you would not believe some of the things she has said to me.
But I have to be in self protection mode now, I can't take this anymore, I need to move forward as if she is never coming back, if she does, then I will deal with crossing that bridge, but I don't have much hope and I must, for my own sake, try to break my love for her....it is no longer healthy for me... Many months ago when I found out about the A, I put a loaded shotgun to my head, spent 3 wonderfull days locked up in the mental ward of the hosptial, she didn't even come to visit me, guess I still have some unrealistic expectations that she cares for me, I really don't think she does, I am just the back up plan. She told me see hasn't loved me in atleast 3-4 years, then why did she have children with me? Anyways, I am starting to ramble on, I understand you point, I will do better in this area. <p>PS, I know the OM cannot meet her FNs, he is 43, lives with his parents, never been married, never been in a serious relationship, has no idea about kids.. he tells her that he is going to be their dad.... idot doesn't realize they already have a day that spends 90% of the overnights with them, I am NOT going anywhere, these are my children, not his, he will learn that in time. Also, his job doesn't have alot of income, when he is actually working at not hanging out with my stbxw and spending my money.
Take care,
Dave

davepr,<p>Your response does verify for me that your W has not had to feel any reality or consequences at all! She is living the life of Riley! She still has the financial support, emotional support of a family, with little to no RESPONSIBILITIES at all. You are carrying the ENTIRE load right now for your family - economically, emotionally and physically.<p>I know you love your W - that is very evident by your posts and your past actions. You demonstrate that by continuing to be more than generous to her and by trying to prevent her from "suffering" despite herself and her own actions and choices.<p>YOU MUST STOP DOING THESE THINGS. You must stop trying to FIX things she is screwing up and stop trying to PREVENT her from suffering the consequences of her actions and inactions!!! The fate of your marriage depends on you letting her see, feel and taste the consequences and reality of what she has done! This is likely why Jen Harley wants you to go back to court to stop financing her life of independence, play and fun. <p>Look, why should your W give up what she is doing and come home - it hasn't cost her ONE THING!! She doesn't care if the OM can't meet her FNs - YOU are doing that. You are keeping the family together. You are solving and handling all the problems. She has OM for sexual fulfillment and recreation. In essence, she has it ALL. Why would she want to give up a life of fun and play that costs her nothing and she has given up 100% of the responsiblities and problems????<p>Keep counseling with Jen. You are not seeing that your actions have been HINDERING your marriage recovery. Please see that by allowing your W to suffer some consequences of her choices, you are NOT being punitive. You are being LOVING. I learned through therapy that I was trying to CONTROL the outcome by carrying the entire load for the relationship - mine and his. Work on yourself and give up your need to try to control the outcome. Respect yourself and you will attract the respect of others. <p>It is your house - don't allow her in. Don't ASK her not to come in - change the locks. Don't make a big production out of it - just do it. Why does she wear the sexy clothes???? Do you need to ask? To manipulate you into "staying in the game." Remove yourself as a pawn in this game via a SOLID Plan B. <p>Give your W and your marriage exactly what both need right now - tough love approach - Plan B. <p>Good luck! Desiree