I was going to wait until I had given Patricia Evans's book a thorough reading or two before saying anything, but I changed my mind after reading some of the posts made here recently. Maybe I'll give someone pause to think...<p>For the most part I do not question the legitimacy of Evans's insights, but I think it is way too easy for anyone reading this book to decide that abuse was involved if they are looking for an excuse to "write off" a spouse.<p>I don't believe Evans is really saying that if you felt uncomfortable in your marriage you must have been abused, but it sure is easy to read that message into the book.<p>Abuse is about asserting "power over" one's partner. But not all of the behaviors that can be included under the umbrella of abuse are necessarily motivated by a desire for control.<p>One can be passive (or just lazy) without being passive-aggressive. One can offer criticism and advice without being patronizing or belittling. One can trespass over boundaries because of ignorance and different expectations without there being any disrespect.<p>But if your partner decides it's in his or her best interests to be the victim of abuse, God forbid that you protest your innocence, because any attempt to defend yourself will be taken as proof that you really are abusive. After all, denial is one of the hallmarks of an abuser.<p>To use scientific terms, the characterization of a relationship as abusive turns out to be an "unfalsifiable hypothesis".<p>Trying to read Patricia Evans's book was a very disconcerting experience for me. On the one hand, I tried to see myself in the role of the abuser, since I have been accused of being extremely angry and controlling and of having an abusive personality. On the other hand, I tried to see myself in the role of the abuse victim, since I have exhibited many of the associated symptoms.<p>Both attempts set my head spinning. First, although I do not deny that my wife experienced many of the symptoms of an abuse victim, especially the "walking on eggshells" bit, my personality is just about as diametrically opposed to that of an abuser as it is possible to be. (I checked with my therapist. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] No, seriously. I did!) If you activate my "fight or flight" instinct in hopes of a violent conclusion to an argument, you'd better have brought along a rifle with a high-powered scope to fire at my retreating back or else backed me into a very tight corner. While on rare occasions I have been known to lose my temper, I have never been so angry that I lost control of what I said and did. On more than one occasion my wife told me that I must have a deeply-buried inner rage, specifically because I didn't get angry. How can you argue with that kind of reasoning? In legal documents, her evidence for her claim that she was endangered by my inability to control my anger included the fact that I once fell asleep while driving. Figure that one out, if you can!<p>As for me being controlling, my wife pretty much did whatever she wanted to do whenever she wanted to do it, to the extent that our friends even commented on the fact that she always seemed to be off doing her own thing. I supported her, encouraged her, and financed her. Heck, I organized my whole life around trying to give her what she wanted and needed.<p>But my wife felt controlled, and Patricia Evans didn't seem to have much to say about why. (Actually, reading between the lines, that's not quite true. If I understand Evans correctly, my wife expected me to try to control her, since that's the marriage model she learned from her parents. So she attempted to fit everything I said and did into that model, regardless of my actual intent.) Her book just sort of assumes that the reader has been abused, and doesn't provide much guidance for those who might have other causes for emotional distress.<p>My attempt to cast myself in the victim role didn't fare much better. I spent a lot of time "walking on eggshells" myself, and a lot of the things my wife said to me were the same sorts of things that abusers say. But...I never felt abused. I never felt like my wife was trying to assert any power over me. Her accusations were generally in the context of how bad she felt. There was an emotional wall between us, and she blamed me. Heck, I blamed myself. It took me the longest time to realize that the reason she couldn't feel my love was because she couldn't bring herself to accept the idea that I loved her (whether from a belief that she was unlovable, or a belief that husbands in general were incapable of love, I don't know). I don't think her resistance to going along with me on things I wanted to do derived from a desire to be the one in control. I think it derived from an inability to distinguish between making compromises and compromising one's self.<p>But I wouldn't have gotten those ideas from Evans's book. Yeah OK, my wife was more messed up than I ever realized, but if I looked first to Evans's book to help me understand what had happened to me and my marriage, I would have been guided more toward outrage and resentment than toward empathy and compassion.<p>I just don't think Patricia Evans's paradigm is a "best fit" for everyone. It sure doesn't seem to work well for me.

I've read this book and I agree that it could be very dangerous. It kind of reminds me of the horoscope...you can read just about anything into it. <p>Don't know what to say about the fact that your wife felt controlled/abused. Kind of goes into the same pot as my ex thinking I was flirting with every guy I work with and always on the lookout for an opportunity to cheat. At some point, no amount of discussions, reasoning, bargaining, whatever, made any difference. <p>I commend you for at least trying to read the book and putting yourself in your wife's place. That to me speaks volumes...The kind of person they describe in that book would not have gone to that trouble.

GnomeDePlume,<p>Wow! We must live in parallel universes or something! I am having the same experience with my wife feeling emotionally abused and in fact at one point said to her, if you felt it then it must have happened. I didn't even know what emotional abuse was! <p>I picked up the Evans book and found myself relating more to the "victim" in most of her cases. Unbelievable.<p>Although I think the book has it's place in helping people who are in emotionally abusive relationships where one person is attempting to have "power-over" the other person - I think the line can become extrememly blurred especially for someone looking for reasons to opt out of the marriage. It's like they have to manufacture the risk in the relationship to feel justified in leaving. I know your pain my friend. Hang in there and know that you are a good person.

MAN!!<p>This is going to be an INTERESTING discussion!<p>I first read Patricia Evan's book in 2000, and I almost fell over dead. Never in my life would I have imagined that I had been verbally abused, but that was because I had been PHYSICALLY beaten as a child--so I figured if it didn't involve being hit, it wasn't abuse! For me, Patricia Evan's book was a lifesaver!!!<p>However, I also know GnomeDePlume very well, and I would have to say that if EVER there was a person who was NOT verbally abusive, it's him. So how could it be that his W accused him of something that is so diametrically opposed to his actual nature??<p>I think the difference is actually kind of easy to discern. I was willing to accept responsibility for my own actions and behaviors, and I was willing to pay the consequences for what I had chosen. I'm not so sure that was the "state of mind" that GDP's W was in. <p>Okay--what I'm trying to politely say is that I think many women who are in a divorce situation are looking for ANY excuse to pin their own problems on their H. Then they read Patricia Evan's book and go "Ah ha!! That's the excuse I can use. He was verbally abusive!!" <p>In REAL life, I think every has, at one time or another, spoken or acted in a way that could be perceived as "verbally abusive." We have all called our spouse a name. We have all critized or threatened or blamed, and technically, those behaviors are verbally abusive. <p>That's why, at one point, I suggested that in order to qualify as a verbally abusive relationship, there should be a PATTERN of repeated and regular verbal abuse over the course of some time. But then everyone jumped all over me and said, "One instance of being hit constitutes physical abuse--one instance of verbal abuse should constitute verbal abuse." GOSH!! Then we are all guilty!!<p>I still say there should be a pattern of that kind of behavior.<p>Also...usually when one partner is repeatedly verbally abusive, the other partner eventually also engages in some verbally abusive behavior as well. It's like this. If your spouse repeatedly told derogatory "jokes" about you, and denied your reality and was very critical and judgemental and regular blew up at you with abusive rage--eventually you would respond to defend yourself with some derogatory remarks of your own--a criticism here and there--and maybe even blow up at them!<p>That's why there are parts of you that identify with the "victim" side. I know for a fact that I was verbally abusive at times. There were times when I tried to respond right...tried to respond right...and then just lost it because I was tired! I have called my H names. I have been critical. So I know for a fact that my H would identify with the "victim" side too.<p>So, while I think your spouses may have USED Patricia Evan's book as an excuse to not face up to their own problems and issues, I do not think that the book is really ALWAYS dangerous. It just CAN be dangerous in the wrong hands.<p>
CJ

Yes, I fear the book could be dangerous in the wrong hands! It could lead to unnecessary relationship break ups! It can be misapplied, misinterpreted, used as a made-up poor excuse to get out of a marriage. The word abuse is used too liberally today. <p>If a spouse suspects her/his relationship is V.A., you should have it confirmed by therapists. Describe incidents that occur and let them assess it. Don't just go by the book and assume that's what you're in. Real verbal abuse is a pattern that goes on over time. My H and I went to several different counselors/therapists, pastor... and all said H is abusive, including verbally. <p>To those of us in a verbally abusive relationship, Evan's book is a lifesaver! It was for me! Real verbal abuse brings confusion, and this book confirmed for me what is really going on! H would twist reality and accuse me of wrong... See, Abusers have more control when they can confuse you.
(On the flip side, if you're not in a V.A. relationship, this book will confuse you!!! You can't imagine what it's like to live with a real verbal abuser if you've never lived with one.)<p>Evan's book assured me that I was not crazy, that my H was truly playing mind games and demeaning me to keep control. <p>Also, I was so frustrated with trying to "relate to H", explaining things, not getting my concerns resolved while he always "wins", trying to build intimacy but never getting anywhere!!!... Evan's description of the two different realities explained the dynamics of what I was experiencing!.....<p>In a normal marriage, communication is used to build bridges of deeper understanding and intimacy with each other, to express disagreement but respectfully, to negotiate and problem solve so both feel a sense of resolve and satisfaction.
But with a Verbal Abuser--communication or lack of it, is used to control the other person no matter how he has to do it!! My H will distort reality, project blame, shame and condemn. He will insist that everything is going to be his way! He will demand to be heard and accepts no questions, discussions or interruptions!...this is clearly CONTROL.<p>The statement in Evan's book that really identified my H as a Verbal abuser is that
verbal abusers can't handle negative emotions (stress, grief, pain, etc) so project it onto their spouse. This is exactly what my H has been like. I looked seriously at each episode of "abuse" and saw that it was NOT ABOUT ME but about some pain going on in him about other issues. He was worse toward me after the deaths of loved ones, after a stressful day on the job, etc... And he once admitted, "I never heal from anything I go through." YIKES! <p>Over time, the pattern of verbal abuse can escalate into physical abuse, which it has in my case. <p>Verbal abuse is a serious reality for some of us.
The book helps immensely!! <p>Another serious danger, however, is if you use Evan's book to then justify immediately leaving your V.A. marriage. This neglects the whole spiritual dimension of marriage!...<p>Go to God first! He is in the marital covenant with us, trying to achieve righteousness and restoration. In the Old Testament book of Malachi, we see God rebuking unfaithfulness, adultery, abandonment and abuse in marriages, and He urged the people to turn back to righteousness. Today the church is responsible to confront these crisises. <p>Whether your spouse is an abuser or in an affair, you must cooperate with God in this spiritual warfare. Pray, speak truth in love, set boundaries, and bring your spouse to accountability. God can use this to break through denial and deliver abusers and adulterers, if they are willing to cooperate. Do not divorce without Biblical grounds! The ONLY reason God ever allowed divorce since the Law of Moses, Jesus said (Matthew 19) is for "hardness of heart." How do you know if your spouse is hard-hearted? Bring him before your pastor, and let your spouse reveal his own heart; let him hear truth and decide what to do with himself and the marriage. Will he grow or stubbornly continue to sin against you?<p>I read the book, Bold Love, by Dan Allendar, and this helped me look beyond my H's verbal abuse, to his wounded soul, and God gave me deep love and mercy for H to pray for him and to speak the truth in love to H. Then, Biblically, a pastor confronted his offensiveness (Matthew 18:15-19) to see if he will admit, repent, and agree to work toward change. <p>Though my spouse has chosen not to change (says he can't change so he's divorcing me), I do not regret the painful miles I've gone with him as I've let God try to bring growth here. I have grown closer to God and deeper in my understanding of love for a spouse. I have cared for my spouse's biggest need (which isn't on Harley's list, but is getting healing for his inner wounds that cause the abusive behavior!) My H has been shown the path toward healing and healthy Biblical marriage, but has refused it.<p>I have peace knowing I've done all I can to make this into a real marriage. I've done all I can to help H out of his misery. I upheld the value of covenant and promoted God's design for marriage. H is now responsible to God for his own decision to not grow and to divorce. And now I believe God, in His grace, is setting me free from this lonely (lack of intimacy) existance, bondage and oppression.<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: Renae ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> verbal abusers can't handle negative emotions (stress, grief, pain, etc) so project it onto their spouse. <hr></blockquote><p>bingo in my case!<p>wiftty

I personally have been one on this site recommending this book, because for me it was an eyeopener. Many of the issues Renae addressed are real for me too. I always wondered why my H didn't "get it". Now I realize he was in a totally different marriage. I don't think he ever believed he exerted "control over" me, but then neither did I. His behavior was passive, but accepting no responsibility.<p>While I need to understand why I let this behavior continue for so long, I also need to heal myself. Part of that healing is to realize that when you accept the victim role, you are blaming. My H still doesn't realize the extent of his actions. I hope he does someday. I also know after reading the book that I was VA, but that was a reaction.<p>One of the reasons I recommended this book was to help others understand why they feel so confused. The quiz in the book helps. I am taking this book as just one form of learning in my quest to better understand and heal myself. It's brought me a great deal of peace, and I think it will help others too.<p>My experience on this site and reading the MB materials has paid additional dividends in that I am now providing what I've learned to help a friend salvage his marriage after his wife's PA. It's a chance for me to better understand the concepts and see them in action.

Abuse is not something that is subjective. It is what it is. I grew up in a home where my parents talked to each other with respect. I learned, as my siblings did, that there are certain modes of behavior that are acceptable. I was never ever verbally abused as a child or a young adult...not until I got married. I don't need a book to clarify this. If you need to read a book to determine if you are abused...you obviously are't. If you are abused and you spend most of your waking moments in fear of what your spouse will do or say...you are literally walking on egg shells when you ask him to help you with washing the windows..you most likely don't want to admit abuse...but you know. I can't believe anyone who is verbally abused would need a book to tell them. <p>You are right abuse is about control...someone who oversteps their boundries or says something insensitive is not abuse. Abuse is when the abuser waits until he has an audiance and then belittles the person...calls the person stupid, fat, unattractive, insults their intelligence, their family, their friends, and their work. Abuse is when the abuser expects their partner to wait on them always despite illness, other duties, or work. Abuse is when the abuser wakes their partner up at 4 in the morning and demands that they get up and make their lunch for work. Abuse is when you can't go out of the house for one hour without the abuser hunting you down and demanding you come home. Abuse is when you plan a special birthday celebration for your abusive spouse and he comes home from a bad day and throws his present across the room and refuses to ea, calling you every name in the book...leaving you and the kids alone in the dining room. Abuse is also being told you are too much trouble to buy a Christmas present for or a birthday gift...though you are expected to hire a brass band and throw a major party for the abuser's birthday. The real test of abuse is when you hear your own children talk to you with the same disrespect they heard for years...to hear your sons call you a liar and other assorted names. Afterall, this is how their father spoke to their mother...it must be okay.<p>Abuse isn't an isolated incident...it is on going and gets worse and worse. It is not a question of a forgotten anniversary or someone not being romantic enough. It is the destruction of your self-esteem and self-worth. It is a slow penetrating process of being treated worse than you would your pet. I know, I lived it and am still suffering the deep wounds abuse inflicts.<p>[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: HappyMac ]</p>

GdP,
Your comments remind me of resistance that was raised to Title VII of the civil rights act which passed in 1964. That's the one that prohibits discrimination in employment for race, religion, national origin and sex. The portion for sex discrimination also addressed sexual harassment in the workplace. Opponents worried that such a statute would "open the floodgates" of litigation. I agree with you that it is truly sickening when a woman makes a false accusation against a man for something he didn't do. It's the kind of damage that is very difficult, if not impossible, to remedy. Still, sexual harassment is very real, and verbal abuse is very real. <p>It sounds like part of your difficulty in reading the book is figuring out how it applies. Well, maybe it just doesn't apply, in which case you have cause for celebration. In my case, it applied all too accurately. I had taken on the role of victim without knowing that I was a victim. Evans showed me how to expose the behavior and request a change. <p>The key ingredient IMHO is what happens after I request a change. Once I had a new perspective on the dynamics of my marriage, I would pinpoint something specific and request that the behavior stop. An abuser will continue the behavior. An abuser has no interest in a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Once the boundary is established, it is up to the victim to decide whether to allow the behavior to continue, or leave. It would have been nice to read about success stories describing techniques that were effective in bringing about change. That type of story was dismally absent when Evans researched her book. I travelled a path similar to Renae. In my case, I paved a path a mile wide to the veteran center where my H could get counselling for his ptsd (and subsequent disability benefits). To my knowledge, H finally did go there twice, but that was all. He's now living in abject poverty alone. I imagine he feels it's all my fault that he's in such a miserable state. Prior to reading Evans' book, I accepted blame that didn't belong to me. Now I know better, and any blame he assigns to me emanates from a separate household. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground -- either live with abuse, or separate. Working to make the abuse go away just wasn't on the menu. <p>For people like me, Evans' work was a godsend. For people looking to find a peg for their garden variety woes, yes, the information could be wielded in a distorted fashion. GdP, if you read the book and find yourself perplexed at how it fits, well, that sounds like cause for celebration to me! It's not supposed to fit!

The real test of abuse is when you hear your own children talk to you with the same disrespect they heard for years
Yes, this is a prime reason I'm getting out. One piece of Irony, when he sees this behaviour in our children, he blames it on me. Still projecting.
Everyone has their examples of abuse which go beyond acceptable, and we need to understand ourselves and work to become healthy individuals and parents. I am working on it now, he isn't.
I didn't recognize it at first either because I didn't see this type of behavior in my FOO either.

Wow. Patricia Evans' book was a real eyeopener for me and finally helped me realize that I'M NOT CRAZY! I never thought I'd hear someone call it dangerous. But I suppose people can take any advice and twist it around for their own means. Why not call Dr. Phil dangerous? Afterall, he encourages people to live authentic lives. Your wife may well turn around and want a divorce because she feels she hasn't been living authentically!<p>Did Patricia Evans or Dr. Phil put ideas into this persons head? No. The ideas were already there. The books just validated them. <p>And to say that if you have to read a book about verbal abuse to know your abused, then it can't be abuse is psychobabble. If you'd never had a cold in your life and never seen the syptoms in anyone else, wouldn't you go to the doctor and say, "I'm sick. What's wrong with me?" It's very hard to recognize abuse when it comes from the person who's supposed to love you the most. And they never admit to the abuse. When you call them on it, they deny your perceptions. It's called crazymaking. Please don't invalidate people just because they don't recognize abuse for what it is. It can be hard to recognize, hard to deal with, and hard to overcome.

I'm not sure I made it clear enough before, but I'd like to emphasize that I am not trying to disparage Patricia Evans's book. Indeed, I believe I would have found her description of the two contrasting marital paradigms to be extremely helpful if I had encountered it earlier in my struggle to understand what had happened to my marriage. (It's helpful to me even now, although it serves mainly as just another camera angle on something that has already come into sharp focus for me.) My concern is the ease with which the book can be misused, and it's hardly the only book with that characteristic: the Bible is another one that comes to mind.<p>I like CJ's suggestion that a relationship should not be labeled "abusive" unless there is a pattern of abuse, but I don't think that's the best criterion to apply: I think the motivation for the abusive behavior is more significant. Unfortunately there is no accurate way of getting inside a perpetrator's head to discern that motivation, which makes evaluation problematic at best. (Trying to get inside a perpetrator's head also risks the development of empathy, and we could have a whole 'nother discussion on whether that's a good or bad thing.)<p>I am a little perplexed by the suggestion of lonesome heart that I have "cause for celebration" if abuse is not an applicable concept in my own situation. I'm sure lonesome heart didn't mean to imply otherwise, but I think it's safe to say that my trauma and confusion and pain and loss is every bit as real whether what I experienced should be "properly" labeled "abuse" or something else.<p>I guess the question I want to ask after reading this thread is, "If you believe that you were abused, what does that mean to you?" What do you gain from a "recognition" that you were abused? Does it make a difference to you if you believe that your spouse is, say, a deliberately manipulative and passive-aggressive "abuser" as opposed to, say, a conflict avoider who is too insecure to take any actions or make any decisions outside of the very narrow scope of what he perceives to be his area of competence? (Perhaps both descriptions are valid, but I'm curious how one's chosen perspective affects one's own psyche and one's own choices.)<p>The most obvious answer that comes to my mind is that seeing oneself as an abuse victim allows oneself to recognize that "it wasn't all my fault". That can certainly be a liberating realization (which no doubt for some is an important and healthy discovery while for others it's just another way of rejecting responsibility). On further consideration, though, I'm not sure how direct that connection is. After all, I came to the same shocking realization (that the failure of my marriage was not primarily my fault) by coming to understand the psychodynamics at work in both my wife and myself, long before it ever occured to me to ask whether I was the victim of abuse.<p>What am I missing here? I am still trying to figure out whether I resist calling my wife's treatment of me "abuse" because I am "in denial", or because that characterization really doesn't fit.

GDP,<p>I'm always glad to run into you on the forum. I have a high respect for you.<p>I too bought this book. I bought it because my W was/is verbally abusive - in my opinion. I was really put off by the fact that P.E. seems to think that only men can be verbally abusive. This is an amazing conjecture - which is not stated as a conjecture - but just assumed as a fact in her book. I had a hard time reading it and mapping "he" into "she" and "she" into "he" and "wife" into "husband" etc. etc. throughout. The pervasive assumption that only men are abusive seems to be complete nonesence to me. I would guess that it's about 50-50 at least - or even that women are more likely than me to be verbally abusive. They used to call it "hen pecking".<p>Other than that, I don't remember any specifics of the book. I just couldn't get past that to understand what she was trying to say.<p>During our marriage, I have called my wife a name on two occations, which she well remembers and sometimes reminds me of. She, on the other hand has almost every day for much of our marriage called me names - even today! (on the phone). She has called me everything in the book in both English and Russian. She has insulted me, my family, even my cat! (She also kicked the cat once - just because it is mine.) Ok, she's a LOT better now - but still she does that - even today - and we are definitely in recovery.<p>Where did it come from? ... From her Mother, who did that to her during her childhood. I never in my entire life heard my Mom say that she hated ANYBODY - much less me. My W has heard every possible insult from her mother - and now it comes out on me. She knows better, but she so far can't completely restrain herself.<p>Well, that's my two bits - maybe some of it is about P.E.'s book.<p>-AD

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What do you gain from a "recognition" that you were abused? Does it make a difference to you if you believe that your spouse is, say, a deliberately manipulative and passive-aggressive "abuser" as opposed to, say, a conflict avoider who is too insecure to take any actions or make any decisions outside of the very narrow scope of what he perceives to be his area of competence? <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, it was important for me to recognize it as abuse. Because I could never understand why things never felt right - the crazymaking case. But you are only a victim if you continue to blame. So recognition was important for me, and now I need to move on. Which I'm doing.

GDP:<p>So many people regard abuse as having their spouse beat them. If you don't get smacked around...you are not a victim of abuse. A few years back I took a graduate class in Family Violence. Abusers are all about control and munipulation...emotional and verbal abuse are more damaging because they are gradual...slowly wearing down the victim's self-esteem so that they think there is something wrong with them...not the other way around. Over 90% of the time when the victim decides to leave, the abuse will turn physical. Unfortunately, in my case, I was one of those 90%.<p>No one has the right to abuse another human being. I agree sometimes people will justify just about anything to meet their means if they want a divorce, etc. We are all human beings and are not always perfect...we say things in anger and may lose our tempers, but that is not abuse. A person avoiding a confrontation is not a victim unless their spouse knows this and munipulates that person continually to get his or her way by means that are not nice...threats, name calling, shoving, pushing...When two fairly normal people are involved in a relationship and they love each other...you don't purposely hurt that person. <p>I think most people who fall victim to abuse are in denial. Domestic Violence has a stigma to it and no one wants to shout from the mountain tops that their spouse is abusive. Abuse happens to uneducated people who have substance problems, etc. The sad fact is that abuse runs rampant in every social sector of our society...education and money have nothing to do with it. Have you ever gone to family court during a domestic violence hearing? It is enough to make you sick...you see the victim on the stand with her black eye and cut lip and the abuser's lawyer trying to get his client off by alluding that she provoked it. The courts have a legal description of what they deem abuse. You cannot verbally assault someone continually or beat them, shove them, push them, lock them out of the house if they don't do as they say, and various other unsavory behaviors. Abusers generally can be quite charming when they want to be...that is why it is so confusing in the beginning...one day they are shoving you and berrating you...the next day they offer to pick the kids up from school...something they should have been doing anyhow. <p>People generally can see it as well...sometimes we can't because we are living it. I know for me it has been a long journey. -AD[/QB][/QUOTE]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
<strong>I'm not sure I made it clear enough before, but I'd like to emphasize that I am not trying to disparage Patricia Evans's book... My concern is the ease with which the book can be misused, and it's hardly the only book with that characteristic: the Bible is another one that comes to mind. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I have to tell you, I don't any one here thought that you were disparaging the book at all. In fact, if anything, I'd say it sounded to me as if you were saying, "Good book; helps with definitions; too easy to misuse." In a nutshell.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I like CJ's suggestion that a relationship should not be labeled "abusive" unless there is a pattern of abuse, but I don't think that's the best criterion to apply: I think the motivation for the abusive behavior is more significant. Unfortunately there is no accurate way of getting inside a perpetrator's head to discern that motivation, which makes evaluation problematic at best. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well thank you! I was looking at this purely from the POV of the person who has been abused, and thus, I would have to disagree with you in a friendly way. As the person who is being controlled and manipulated and whose self-esteem is being torn down, I do not think it is my responsibility to discern, "Why is my abuser abusing me? What motivated him/her?" My responsibility is more, to recognize, "Was that behavior abusive or not? Is there a pattern, or was it an isolated incident?" <p>I support my opinion with this. I do not believe there IS an acceptable motivation for abusing another person, including defending yourself. Now, it is certainly understandable and a very human reaction to be abusive back to defend yourself. Nonetheless, if I, as a mature adult, take responsibility for my actions, I am responsible to NOT ABUSE OTHERS. PERIOD. If I need to go to a counselor and deal with my issues and face my demons in order not to abuse others, then I need to do so. If I need to walk away, drive away or even MOVE AWAY in order to not abuse others, then I need to do so! Furthermore, you know me, GDP--I think I've put my money where my mouth is. <p>Furthermore, as the person who is being abused, it is also my responsibility to discern "Is this abuse or not?" and books like this can help in that discernment. Note that I say HELP. Once I determine if a behavior is or is not abusive, then I am responsible to decide if it is a pattern or an isolated incident. If it's isolated, well, chalk it up to a bad day or whatever--we all have them. But if it is a pattern, I have one final responsibility: "Am I going to allow this pattern to continue, or am I going to do something to change it?"<p>As the person who is being abused, it is not my job to "fix" my abuser or find out WHY he/she is doing it--my job is basically to find out if it is abuse, and if it is, decide if I am going to let it continue. Assuming that I choose to not let it continue, then I have to decide how to affect that change...do I need to move out or are there techniques I can use to receive respectful behavior from my abuser? <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I am a little perplexed by the suggestion of lonesome heart that I have "cause for celebration" if abuse is not an applicable concept in my own situation. I'm sure lonesome heart didn't mean to imply otherwise, but I think it's safe to say that my trauma and confusion and pain and loss is every bit as real whether what I experienced should be "properly" labeled "abuse" or something else. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>AWWWwww...don't misunderstand, GDP. Your marriage is ending, and it has been HORRIBLE for you. The loneliness and pain and loss are agonizing and difficult to bear. But I think the "celebration" was in reference to feeling some sense of comfort in perhaps discovering that there was not abuse in your marriage. You weren't abused and neither was she. I think lonesome heart just meant that maybe that would be one area of comfort for your heart--that although things ended and she choose to walk away, there was not abuse: verbal, emotional, or physical. That is a little soothing, isn't it?? <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I guess the question I want to ask after reading this thread is, "If you believe that you were abused, what does that mean to you?" What do you gain from a "recognition" that you were abused? Does it make a difference to you if you believe that your spouse is, say, a deliberately manipulative and passive-aggressive "abuser" as opposed to, say, a conflict avoider who is too insecure to take any actions or make any decisions outside of the very narrow scope of what he perceives to be his area of competence? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well...speaking only for myself here, but when I read Pat Evan's book and realized that I had been extremely verbally abused for more than a decade, what it meant to me was that I was not nuts! I don't know if you will ever understand this, GDP, because I don't believe it has happened to you, but when you are told every day for more than a decade that you are ugly, stupid and crazy, parts of you start to believe it! I did. I wondered if "maybe it is just me" or "maybe I really am too sensitive" or "maybe I really am crazy!" It's a strange thing, because about half of me knew that my perceptions were REAL and I could believe in myself--and yet the other half really, honestly doubted if I was the problem and it was just all in my head. Once I read this book, I knew that I was not just making it up and I was not just too picky or always trying to start a fight. It was REAL. So the number one thing it meant to me was to validate that it was a REAL issue, not just something in my head. In addition, I had felt like I was the ONLY woman who's H treated her this way. In public he was charming and brilliant--but in private he was vicious and mean. No one would believe me--"Not him! He's so nice!" So this book show me I was not alone--that this was happening to other women and that people WOULD believe me. <p>You asked what I gained from recognizing I was verbally abused. Well, for one thing, it was the beginning of my journey into respect--both building my own self-respect, and expecting respect from others. Also, it is a bit like finding out the name of the disease you have. For a long time you don't feel good, and you take generic anti-biotics or aspirin to help, but it doesn't cure. Finally one day you discover that you have APPENDICITIS and then you know how to treat it!! There are medical techniques to reduce the infection and/or surgical techniques to remove the appendix--and when you follow the specific things you need to do to cure your illness...lo and behold, in a few days, you feel better!! Same here. Once I recognized what the problem was, there were things I could do to "fix" the problem. Now, I could try plan #1, and if that didn't work I could try plan #2... See??<p>Finally, you asked if it makes a difference if you believe that your spouse is, say, a deliberately manipulative and passive-aggressive "abuser" as opposed to, say, a conflict avoider...and I'd say, yes it does. If my H is a Passive/Aggressive abuser, I need to be vigilant of P/A behaviors and call him on them every time. When he says, "Yeah go ahead...whatever" I know that bells should go off in my head and I need to address that P/A response right then and there. However, if he's a conflict avoider abuser, then I need to be vigilant for THOSE kind of behaviors. When he says, "I don't want to talk about it" I need to address that response right then and there. So, although the end result (being verbally abused) is the same, the more you can define it and identify it and recognize it, the better decisions you can make. <p>Gee, as a Thinker, I would think you might understand this. If you do not have all the facts, your decision will be faulty at best. The more facts you have, the better and more clear your decisions can be and the more accurately you can decide which path to take. For me, I might not have the tools available to deal with a passive/aggressive abuser--but I might be well equipped to deal with a conflict avoider. So the more you know, the better decision can be made. <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> The most obvious answer that comes to my mind is that seeing oneself as an abuse victim allows oneself to recognize that "it wasn't all my fault". That can certainly be a liberating realization (which no doubt for some is an important and healthy discovery while for others it's just another way of rejecting responsibility). </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, I think this can be VERY dangerous, and I think this is where about 90% of Ms. Evan's book is misused. The spouse who wants out of the marriage will say to themself, "I certainly am not responsible for this, so it must be my spouse's fault somehow. OH! I know! They were verbally abusive to me, so I am justified in leaving and looking for my own happiness. See?" VERY dangerous. In truth, I think that discovering that my H was verbally abusive toward me was so freeing DIRECTLY because I take responsibility for what I did to contribute to this mess. It IS in fact freeing to realize that "I haven't been making this up! I'm not crazy! YAY!!" However, I have to also say that upon discovering that my H was abusive to me, I did not consider that as a legitimate reason to just give up and go my merry way either. For me, I now had a name for it and could do something with it...and leaving for my own protection was the last option, after trying ever other way to work on the abuse and get it to stop. Steps 1 through 4 were 1) work hard on building my own respect so that I believe I should be respected! 2) communicate clearly that I expect to be treated with respect and will not accept anything else--control and abuse are over
3) ask for cooperation in going to counseling and 4) set clear boundaries and state clear consequences. After all those steps were exhausted and if I still was abused and not safe, then move out in a controlled separation. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>What am I missing here? I am still trying to figure out whether I resist calling my wife's treatment of me "abuse" because I am "in denial", or because that characterization really doesn't fit.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, gee, GDP, none of us was there in your marriage with you. It's impossible for us to tell over the forum (heehee). But since you tend to interpret things via "facts" vs. feelings, why don't you make a list of the "facts" as you see them? For example, you can see what the ten or eleven "types" of verbal abuse are, right? Why don't you make a list that has two columns: abuse/not abuse. Then list the instances that you consider to be potentially abusive behavior. Bear in mind that your marriage was for years, and everyone has a few bad days and says things that could be construed as abusive. Then check the appropriate column. If you have a ten page list and every check mark is in the abuse column, then even you will be able to see that you are in denial! HAHA [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Let me tell you my experience. Even though I am a Feeler type, I think you can relate to this. As I was reading through the book, I felt as if a bell was ringing inside me. I recognized pattern after pattern after pattern. It resonated in me, "OMG!! This is it! I have been verbally abused all these years!!" It felt like an epiphany. My GUESS, and I mean sincere guess, is that your response would have been much more like recognizing the patterns and facts and examples if the characterization had fit. Your Thinker mind would have had some behaviors that it had puzzled and puzzled about and could not fit into a pattern--and upon seeing the categories in the book, would have jumped into recognition: "Oh--that was ABUSE! This fits here. That fit here." And it would have sifted through the un-understandable data and looked for data matches (haha). <p>Okay--not a great job, but I'm trying to translate, and my suspicion is that the characterization doesn't fit. <p>
CJ

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:
I am a little perplexed by the suggestion of lonesome heart that I have "cause for celebration" if abuse is not an applicable concept in my own situation. I'm sure lonesome heart didn't mean to imply otherwise, but I think it's safe to say that my trauma and confusion and pain and loss is every bit as real whether what I experienced should be "properly" labeled "abuse" or something else.<p>I guess the question I want to ask after reading this thread is, "If you believe that you were abused, what does that mean to you?" What do you gain from a "recognition" that you were abused? Does it make a difference to you if you believe that your spouse is, say, a deliberately manipulative and passive-aggressive "abuser" as opposed to, say, a conflict avoider who is too insecure to take any actions or make any decisions outside of the very narrow scope of what he perceives to be his area of competence?
...What am I missing here? I am still trying to figure out whether I resist calling my wife's treatment of me "abuse" because I am "in denial", or because that characterization really doesn't fit.<hr></blockquote><p>First, GdP, I don't know how I managed to conjure an image in your mind that your pain isn't real just because you had difficulty seeing how Evans' descriptions of abuse doesn't apply. It seems fair to say that everyone here has pain that rockets off the charts. It just comes in a lot of different flavors, and verbal abuse isn't something you want to experience! If it's absent in your life, I saw that as something to celebrate. That's all I meant!<p>For me, the first time I read about verbal abuse was at www.drirene.com. I could see that everything fit like a glove, but somehow or another, it didn't fully sink in for six more months. Recognition came first. Accepting the truth came later. Then I read Evans' books. My H's favorite tactic is to point out flaws in what I say, what I do, what I think. Heck, I'm just a flawed person. It's a long road to recovery to realize I'm not that flawed. My counselor recognized the emotional abuse before I did. <p>GdP, I'm not familiar with your story enough to speculate whether your W is abusive or not. Denial is a strong force, no doubt about that. Do you think maybe she's abusive and you're in denial? I don't think it makes a whit of difference whether my H's behavior is from passive agression, depression, conflict avoidance, untreated ptsd, or something I've never heard of. Somewhere along the way, I became my H's enemy, and I tried very hard to be a team player. I won't stay with someone who treats me that way, and it doesn't matter what the reason is. Maybe someday my H will have a change of heart, and maybe I'll figure out why I tolerated what I did for so long. I just know one thing for sure. I needed to protect myself emotionally from my H, and that's why we're separated. Evans' books helped me see the things I needed to see.

I'm posting this on this thread, because I think it's relevant. This is what happens to a person who is truly verbally and emotionally abused. This is my own story, and this is what it's like:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> Okay, I ducked my head a little better this time, and I sorta saw this one coming (like out of the corner of my eye), but being hit blindside by the enormous defensive man still hurts. Here's why:<p>My H is taking some new medication that I thought was going to eliminate some of these situations and decrease the ones that did occur to less extreme reactions. In other words, I thought there was going to be longer periods of "peace" in between incidents, and I thought the incidents that did occur would be less vicious and harmful. I was expecting maybe a week or two of reassurance and building, and then one day of much more mature, responsible disagreeing or arguing. The kind where I say, "I seriously do NOT agree, and I am beginning to not feel safe in discussing this any further" and he says, "I don't either, so let's table this discussion until we've had a chance to settle down."<p>I thought the name calling was over…the immediate jump to "I don't care about you" and "F*** you"…the hanging up and ignoring me and shutting me out and hurting me so drastically despite the fact that I say, "Stop-you're hurting me too much!!" It feels like he is ripping my heart out while I am still alive!!! I thought he was dealing with his issue and taking medicine and going to the counselor/doctor to handle it all, so that I would not be so badly mangled. I thought his one and only goal in life was to PROVE to me that I was safe being with him.<p>Unfortunately, now I feel like I was just fooling myself. I had such HIGH HOPE. I think I was in denial. I just WANTED it to be better so bad that I convinced myself that it was. I am concerned over the fact that he has worked so much and so hard that I was put in a position to be hurt. I am distraught over the fact that he has not yet been to his counselor in more than a month, and today he didn't go because he threw up-but he might feel good enough to go to work later. I can't possibly tell him how this makes me feel because it will lead to yet another incident of ripping my heart out and slashing me and telling me he doesn't care about me and kicking me out. <p>Inside, I am dying for him to see that this is part of the problem he is attempting to deal with. It's part of the demon he wrestles with, but he has to protect me from his demon and help me protect myself. I know this is sort of cryptic, like the last one, but I'm here to get some support from my friends, not reveal all of his issues to you guys. He knows what the issue is. <p>For more than two years now, I have been deeply longing for some security and stability in my life…the kind where I KNOW within my soul that I am loved, appreciated, important, valuable and ROCK SOLID. I have worked and worked and worked to get my feet under me-get a job I love with people I love-get a place to stay where I'm safe and okay-get my money to a point where I'm not afraid every month. Gosh, I would LOVE to share myself and my thoughts and my feelings with a person who would think of what is best for me, as much as I have tried to do what is best for my H! You know what's best for me right now?? PROTECT MYSELF!!! <p>Oh, God, I wanted to believe that HE would protect me. That he would still have those tendencies, but get me out of the way of the steaming train before it ran me over. I wanted to believe that it was even possible!! And I can't even say anything. I have no one to share my fears with. Whether they are irrational fears or not is irrelevant-I can't express them, because I'd be putting myself in danger. <p>I don't know how to get out of this. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd wish that my H UNDERSTOOD that he can't just mow me down!! It's a weird mix: is it issue A or anger management or low blood sugar or lack of sleep...? Who cares? I'm tired of caring. I WANT TO BE PROTECTED-PERIOD. I don't care WHY you just stabbed me a thousand times and ripped my heart out while I was still alive. I just want it to stop!!!! <p>I can NOT depend it stopping, can I?? There's no way it can stop without going to the counselor for a long time and working on it, and he won't go to the counselor. It was all an illusion, and the great changes that I thought I saw, were all my dreams because I wanted them SO badly!! Where's that "balling my eyes out" icon?? <p>Okay (deep breath) (another deep breath). Here's what I could use from you guys...hugs and sympathy. If I'm way off base, please tell me, but I'd suspect it's more likely that I haven't been facing reality. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I'm hoping that this kind of pain never enters your life, and if it hasn't, then in some ways, you do have reason to celebrate. <p>CJ