I'm told it's not likely that he'd get full custody in my state, NJ, but I'm upset that he thinks he should have full custody of these beautiful girls that he barely spent time with before the separation. Now all I ever hear is where grandma & grandpa take them, not where daddy takes them (he's living with them of course).<p>What have others experienced with respect to custody and spousal support for the male? In the past five years, he's made substantially the same pay as I have, but my future earnings prospects are better.

newly,<p>One thing I have learned is that divorce brings out the ugliest in ALL people...<p>I would have never thought that my xh would refuse to pay child support..told me *i* didn't deserve it...and that he would take me to court to see if I was a fit mother...blah, blah, blah.
Of course, these were idle threats (got my first check last week [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) but he made them nonetheless.<p>I find that most (Counter)filings in divorce/custody cases are NOTHING about the children and their welfare but rather about MONEY and 'how can I [censored] you around and piss you off because YOU had the nerve to file d/cs on me?'
Sorry to be so graphic but it really is how I see it.

I don't know about the whole alimony issue but I have a friend that fought for more than a year and just recently a final custody decision was made if she decides not to appeal. It can be a very expensive bargaining tool. My friends ex husband barely spent anytime with their kids but he found out she was going to leave and he became superdad and even arranged his work schedule to coinside with their school schedule. He could have done that months before she decided to leave. The courts ate it up. She gets her kids 3 days per week but he is named as the custodial parent and he thinks that makes him God. If you can work it out with mediation I highly recommend it.

Thanks. Same situation. Went from barely there to demanding 50% time. We tried mediation in February, she threw us out and told us to go to marriage counseling to learn communication.
I'd like to hear from others whose H have tried to get custody.
GIIC what was your end result?

Newly,<p>Well, My ex filed for d and for custody, I counter filed..<p>He was never around for 9 years and then when he filed he asked to work in town..they brought him to town to work..and he did the 'super dad' thing too, trying to make it look like he was the best thing since sliced bread, in the courts eyes..took the kids as much as he could, put son in cub scouts (this was going to be 'their' thing
and mom wasn't to be included)didn't do anything w/ the girls though..I got them in activities and had him take them to their events the weekends he had them..<p>Well, the courts asked about his job..(as it requires him to travel 99% of time) he told them "if" he got custody he'd find another job..the
courts basically said.."you have had joint custody of your kids all these years and have never been around for them until now..what makes NOW any different than then??" <p>They asked about how I would support the kids since I've not worked..I said, I'm going back to college, working towards a degree in XYZ, working part-time, yes it's a struggle financially, but it will get better..I had documentation as to the classes I was taking..and the classes I still need to take..even had documentation for the grant..to show how it was being paid for..<p>I was a stay home mom..ex makes good money..the
courts didn't care if he made more money..they cared about who would provide the most stability
for the kids, who knows the most about the kids?
best friends? Their parents? school teachers? which subject do they enjoy the most, which do they have the most trouble with?? the things an
active parent would know about..even things such illnesses they have had..who their doctors are..<p>They asked us both why we think we would be the better parent, why we think the other would be a better parent, and why we don't think the other would be a better parent..<p>They asked him how things were going as far as visitation since we'd been seperated and if he had any problems from me about seeing the children on a regular basis, he said no, he's been able to spend as much time w/ them as he's wanted too..and they asked me if I had any problems w/ the way things had been thus far..and the only complaint I had was that he wanted the kids 'every weekend' to where I didn't have any time with them other than when they had home work to do, sports activities to go to, and had to get to bed early because of schol the next day..and didn't have any real 'family' time with them..and explained I have been trying to allow him reasonable time w/ the kids knowing that his job could take him out of town again..<p>I don't know if all courts are like that..but those are things they asked us..I got full custody
and he's back working out of town and has been for a few months now..<p>I took over the 'scout' thing because dad was no longer around..our son got mad about that because his dad was sooo insistant it was for 'them' and not to include me..<p>My lawyer told me that the custody issue is usually a scare tactic, and always about money..
not about what is necessarily best for the kids..
my ex had a problem w/ the amount of child support
that was mentioned in my documents..and fought on that issue the entire time..until we went for mediation and he seen it was state guideline based on his income to mine..so he agreed to stop fighting..

Thanks. I've worked throughout our marriage and have a well paying career. He owns his own company, but he thinks I'll pay alimony because he chooses to draw a small salary? The lawyers will decide.
TR - How long did it take to discuss the children and custody? When does he see the kids?
I travel about once a month for only 1-2 nights. Not too much, but I'll need to rely on H later for coverage as I have no family nearby. He didn't believe he should watch them when we were together.
I've heard that the court doesn't consider what type of parent they were in the past, just how much time they are spending with the children now. And because he's living at his mom & dad's, he keeps them three nights per week (demanded 50% time, but hasn't asked for a fourth night for 4 weeks). And I'm so tired of hearing my children say "grandma & grandpa took us here". Where was their father?????
Sorry to vent. I'm still upset by it.
I'm taking the girls to Sesame Place tonight for a girl's night out. (for the 3 year old set).

Newly,
When my second daughter was 2.5 I left her abusive dad and went "home" to another state from NJ. He chased me throught the courts for four years, refusing to give up and making up charges in court (later disproved) until he won custody of her.
He had his own business and lied about income and hid money. <p>Be prepared to hire a CPA to do an audit if you want to show true profit of his business. (This can cost big bucks $15,000)<p>Be prepared for him to be able to work his own hours and thus say he can spend more time with the children after school. Because he owns his own business - he can say and do anything.<p>The fact that the children spend time with gradma and grandpa and not him is not provable unless you hire a PI. They would most likely lie for him.<p>Start thinking about subtle ways to undermine grandma and grandpa's support. Like - wow the children are so lucky that you've stepped in and are willing to be a mom and dad again at your age when you should have the freedom to do your own thing... That you would tie yourselves down again when you've finally gotten free of children and responsibilities...

newly:<p>He owns his own company, but he thinks I'll pay alimony because he chooses to draw a small salary? The lawyers will decide.<p>TR- Not the lawyers really, the judge..one person
pretty scary huh?? deciding the fate of your kids
and if you pay alimony..<p>Alimony can be used as a bargaining tool..is typically (today anyway) used to help one spouse gain the skills needed to gain employment..and it's called temporary spousal support..and that depends on the length of marriage..you can use it to get him to waive any rights to IRA's or retirement funds you have, or he has..say, I'll waive asking for alimony if you waive your rights to my retirement accounts..<p>If he started his own business while you were married you can also check to see if you can get half of that..especially if he used maritial funds to help start the business..<p>He'd moved out in Sept. 2000, He filed in Aug of 2001, for an immediate hearing on temporary custody and child support, they ruled that day on both issues..<p>How long did it take to discuss the children and custody? <p>TR-that day in court it took about 2 hours..we went to Mediation in Mar. that took another 2 1/2
hours..of going back and forth..<p>When does he see the kids?<p>TR- Well, that's changed a couple times..like I said, he was getting them every weekend..but since mediation, it was every other weekend..and if he wanted to get them one night a week he could...<p>now that he's out of town again, he was working in the same state about 5 hrs away, and would come in every weekend..thinking because he'd been out of town I'd just let him take them every weekend..(I wouldn't)then he started calling the kids trying to get them to change their plans on my weekends..
His weekend he got them Thursday & Friday, had them home by noon sat. morning..because he had plans w/ his brother to go out..<p>now he's working in another state..still about 5 hrs away..has been in town for 2 weekends, so far..he's not coming in this weekend it being mothers day..but will "try" to be in next weekend..which is his weekend..but I won't be surprised if he waits till the following weekend
which is Memorial Day weekend and we already have plans..rented a cabin on the lake..and planning a b-day party for my daughter w/ some of her friends on her softball team..<p>I travel about once a month for only 1-2 nights. Not too much, but I'll need to rely on H later for coverage as I have no family nearby. He didn't believe he should watch them when we were together.<p>TR-is this something you could work out before hand?? or could you ask a trusted friend??<p>I've heard that the court doesn't consider what type of parent they were in the past, just how much time they are spending with the children now.
TR-I don't know..I know here it mattered..but I also think because he said "IF" he gets custody he'll find another job..meaning..finding another job to be w/ his kids all the time wasn't a priority in his book..<p>And because he's living at his mom & dad's, he keeps them three nights per week (demanded 50% time, but hasn't asked for a fourth night for 4 weeks). And I'm so tired of hearing my children say "grandma & grandpa took us here". Where was their father?????<p>TR- And you wonder..where are his parental responsibilities?? <p>You know..my girls don't like going w/ their dad
because he drinks so much..and something I am trying to figure out..if a person can not legally drive because they have had to much to drink..how can they properly tend to children if they have the same amount of alcohol that renders them to drunk to drive??<p>
Sorry to vent. I'm still upset by it.<p>TR- Tis okay..thats what the forum is for..<p>I'm taking the girls to Sesame Place tonight for a girl's night out. (for the 3 year old set).<p>TR- Sounds like fun [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I don't know if its like that in NJ, but my lawyer said here in our part of Ohio, the judges really don't like to assign custody because of the problems its causes and usually recommend shared parenting with one parent being the custodial parent where the kids live.<p>My g/f's x has his own business(his parents maybe) and he quit paying child support back in Nov because business was bad and he wasn't taking a paycheck. She complained to CPS and they eventually took his driver's license. He threatened to have the CPS review his cs payments. But then just last week, she received a check for double what she normally gets, so she may be getting it again.

Right after D-day I threatened my wife with filing for full custody. It was about access to the kids, not money, and I never went through with it. I can tell you that I telecommuted for 5 years in order to spend more family time, and now I have a flexible schedule (in office, but much less travel), also to make my custody schedule work. Because I was a telecommuter, I think my wife took the threat seriously and I have more access (5 overnights out of 14) than I would have otherwise. She is a SAHM and was planning the standard 2 weekends + 2 hours Wednesday night deal.<p>We argue sometimes about who is really interested in the kids. But I did 9 months of plan A, spending even more time with them, and in fact that's the only improvement of mine that she acknowledged.<p>It's hard to separate the money issues. I have no problem paying CS, but I do have a problem with alimony and with a property split other than 50-50. Yet it all goes to the same place.<p>I asked for 7 and then 6 overnights every 2 weeks. But my wife insisted on 5, because that gets the percentage below a magic number of 40% in PA. I went along. But see, that was about money on her part. She gave the reason that the kids should be at her place on school nights, but now I have the kids 2 weekend nights and 3 school nights. She refused more weekend nights. It had nothing to do with the number of school nights. And BTW, all 3 are still doing great in school. On my lawyer's advice, I rented an apartment in the same school district so it all works out. I just have to drop them off and pick them up at school certain days.<p>Another thing she did, is to deliberately limit her income capacity and increase her child care expenses. To affect the amount of family support. It goes by a formula in PA.<p>It's very much a power struggle. But mediation isn't always the answer. Why should she just take my money as an entitlement, and cut me off from every other benefit of family life? I would absolutely get screwed if I did not fight back.<p>Well, I'm sorry to have taken over with some venting of my own. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] But now I'll try to answer your questions...<p>Steve Harley, and other less expert opinions, thought that I could get custody especially working at home full time. My wife was more involved with the kids, but I did get them ready for bed each night, take them to sports, to scouts, etc. And I had done it 5 years. My lawyer advised against a custody fight. It's a destructive battle, and there is still a bias in favor of the Moms. After the initial shock of D-day, I didn't really want to take the kids away from their Mom. But I would have filed for custody if necessary. We have a custody agreement in place now, with 5 overnights out of 14, and I think it's settled. I can do it this way perpetually.<p>My wife is telling a lot of people that I'm not really interested in the kids. But the facts don't support it, and people can see that. I think a court would see, too, if we ever end up there. Just make sure you look at the facts and your own motives honestly.<p>If someone is only interested in the CS impact, I don't think they will stick it out. If someone relies on their parents to carry the load, I don't think they will stick it out then either. That seems to apply in your case.<p>Somebody else advised trying to undermine the grandparents, but I think that kind of stuff always backfires. You're better off maintaining a good working relationship with them, if not your H. You might end up on the same team with them, working for the kids benefit. It might not happen right away, but after a couple years, if your H is not committed to the kids, then some changes might occur.<p>My parents are hundreds of miles away, but I do take the kids a lot of places when I have them. The main reason is that they don't have much space, nor many toys, in the apartment. It's a little different now that the weather's better and they've met many of the neighborhood kids. But to a large extent, this place is not as nice as the house and I'm trying to make up for it. Something like that might apply in your case, too.<p>Good luck. It's clear to me that you care and your H probably does not, so I hope things work out well for you.<p>- Tom

Tom,<p>Thanks for your reply. I really wanted to talk to someone who's living it. I believe he loves the girls, but doesn't really understand what it means to take care of children. Putting them to bed isn't all there is. My H severely overestimated the time he actually spent with the girls before he moved out, and is only now spending quality time with them.<p>
More questions for you.
1. What nights do you have them? (My H currently has them T & H overnight, and Saturday or Sunday night). Although I felt terrible about the amount of time he has them, I've needed it to read and meet with my counselor & support group.
2. What about school holidays?
3. Vacations?
(My husband never takes time off work and hates vacations - a major sore point with me.)
4. Who's responsible if the child becomes sick and will miss school?
5. How explicitly are these things written out?
6. Who drops off/picks up? (We'll probably be about 25 miles away when I move 10 miles north, and he moves near his parents).
7. How do you split holidays? My family is a 10 hour drive away.

Hi newly - we have a custody agreement with 21 clauses and about 5 pages, and it spells out most of the details. To answer your questions:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
1. What nights do you have them? (My H currently has them T & H overnight, and Saturday or Sunday night). Although I felt terrible about the amount of time he has them, I've needed it to read and meet with my counselor & support group.
<hr></blockquote>
I'm on a 2-week rotation that goes W-H, then T the next week, and then F-Sat. However they are not due back until 8 p.m. Sunday on the weekend I have them.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
2. What about school holidays?
<hr></blockquote>
Not specified, we let them fall on the regular schedule. Sometimes I have to shift work hours as a result (they've had a lot of "in-service" days this semester!).
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
3. Vacations?
(My husband never takes time off work and hates vacations - a major sore point with me.)
<hr></blockquote>
We're each allowed 9 days vacation during the summer, with written notice. The 9 days is to cover a week and both weekends around it. I have mine scheduled for June. In addition, I'm taking one son to Webelos camp 5 days in July, and the other son to Cub camp 3 days in August. During camp my wife will have the other two. We did this last year, before we were separated, except I went to one camp and my wife the other. The camp was not in the written custody agreement.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
4. Who's responsible if the child becomes sick and will miss school?
<hr></blockquote>
It's luck of the draw. This happened once already with my oldest son, and I had to shift work hours. He was okay by the end of the day, though. We've not had the situation yet, where one kid is too sick to move.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
5. How explicitly are these things written out?
<hr></blockquote>
Most of it's in a court order.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
6. Who drops off/picks up? (We'll probably be about 25 miles away when I move 10 miles north, and he moves near his parents).
<hr></blockquote>
"Father is responsible for all transportation on the days he has custody." Her lawyer put that into the agreement and I did not argue. My apartment is maybe 4 miles from the house and 2 miles from the school. I drop off and pick up directly at the school, on school days. I have to live in the district if I want to do that.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
7. How do you split holidays? My family is a 10 hour drive away.
<hr></blockquote>
Mostly they alternate. We have the kids on our own birthdays, and split time on the kid birthdays. We split time on Christmas and Easter, alternating the mornings and afternoons each year. An exception is Thanksgiving - I have them on Thanksgiving every year to visit my parents. Her family is much closer.<p>You are right about the overnights, it's helping them with homework, making breakfast, packing lunches, etc. It's a lot more involvment than just a 2-hour weeknight visitation, and well worth it.<p>You can probably tell that my wife is cooperative to some extent. I had to make a business trip last week, which is going to be extremely rare in my new job. But I had to switch days to make this trip; she took my Thursday and I took one of hers. We are both sticking to the letter as much as possible, partially to prove that we can.<p>There was a night she needed a sitter, in order to attend a class for work. I would do it, but she was not going to be back until 9:30 p.m. and she did not want me in the house. So she was going to pick them up at my place, and probably get them settled at 10:30 on a school night. I pointed that out. Then I asked if she could trade me a few hours the day after babysitting, to minimize the impact on my work schedule. Next day she told me that it conflicted with her own work schedule, and I said that I would do it anyway. But apparently she didn't feel right about it, and she ended up getting OM as a sitter. At least they got to bed early, presumably.<p>Right now, the transfer times are 3 p.m. to match the school day. During the summer, we verbally agreed to use 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. But we're both careful to make sure it's an even trade.<p>There is another item in the clause, that neither one can sign a kid up for activities without written permission from the other. The kids were already in a lot of activities - soccer, dance lessons, scouts, music lessons. I violated that clause, before the agreement was made, by signing up my son for baseball. He'd been asking for 2 years, and he's not in another sport, but I did not check with my wife first. She told me that I must have done it only to make her life miserable. I'm paying all the activity fees, and the equipment, so money was not an issue. But the scheduling is very hectic for May and June. I would not do it again. Make sure you have a clause like that. Sadly, our kids will have to drop some activities and its not for financial reasons, but the scheduling conflicts.<p>These are just some examples, to give you an idea how hectic and contentious this is for both parties. (And I'm theoretically in plan B!) My work schedule is limited to 40 hours in the office, there are some 12-hour days and some 6-hour days. I don't do as many outside projects and professional activities as I used to, in fact, it will probably spiral down to none. This process actually started some years ago, and I came to terms with not being able to meet all my career goals. Your H might not be ready for all this.<p>- Tom

Newly, thought I&#8217;d burst in and throw my couple pennies in. I am one of the husband that counter-filed for primary custody and settled out of court for Shared Joint Custody with neither parent having primary residential. And no, money had nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact I&#8217;m paying over twice what the law requires, I offered more to agree on custody short of trial. That was a year ago and now I&#8217;m heading back to court because of some other issues and I will fight over school, custody, holidays, transportation, child support, and everything else.<p>BTW I have three daughters 12, 10, & 7&#8230;<p>
1. What nights do you have them?<p>We have a two-week revolving schedule and all visits are overnights:<p>Mon-Mom
Tues-Dad
Wed-Mom
Thu-Mom
Fri-Dad
Sat-Dad
Sun-Dad
Mon-Mom
Tues-Mom
Wed-Dad
Thu-Dad
Fri-Mom
Sat-Mom
Sun-Mom<p>It&#8217;s worked out fairly well. We live about 18 miles apart and I&#8217;ve done all the transporting (averaging 1,600 miles a month).<p>2. What about school holidays?<p>We didn&#8217;t address this in our divorce but when I go back to court it will be addressed. Long weekend just go with whoever has the kids but any other breaks should be spelled out.<p>3. Vacations?<p>Another one we didn&#8217;t address that needs to be. We&#8217;ve worked pretty well about switching out days for each of us to have week long vacations with the girls.<p>4. Who's responsible if the child becomes sick and will miss school?<p>I would say that it&#8217;s the responsibility of the parent who they are with that day. In our case, my X wqent back to college, so more times than not, I took off work even on her days to pick them up because they couldn&#8217;t get a hold of her or her solution was to leave the sick child at home alone.<p>5. How explicitly are these things written out?<p>Again, hindsight, I would of written everything out as explicitly as practical. But you also want to leave enough latitude for yourself.<p>6. Who drops off/picks up? (We'll probably be about 25 miles away when I move 10 miles north, and he moves near his parents).<p>I would work out a transportation plan that coincides with your parenting plan. I got stuck doing all the driving and that 25 miles will add up quickly.<p>7. How do you split holidays?
We didn&#8217;t spell this one out good enough if you ask me. We simply said that she has them these holidays on even years and these on odd years. Again, I would spell it out, giving careful consideration to each holiday, especially the ones that are special to both of you.

Thanks for answering guys. Other male responses would be appreciated.<p>Bill, do the girls like switching so often? It seems that it would be disruptive. I'm hoping to force him to do all the driving. For the first 4 years, I commuted 100 miles per day because he thought it would be better daycare, and only helped out the first year. I hate to drive.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by newly:
<strong>Bill, do the girls like switching so often?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I would say yes. Granted mine may not be the best arrangement but it was what I could get outside of court on 9/11/01. There are those who say that a weekly schedule would be better, but really I think ours works out pretty darn well. The girls never go more than 4 days without staying with one of us. <p>At some point soon I will probably re-evaluate how things are going because we are probably going to be back in court in June or July. I have all three girls in counseling and I will lean on their therapist for some wise counsel.<p>In your situation where you have younger kids the frequency of contact is so much more important.