These expressions get used a lot by the BS, as in "I've got to let her go" and "It's time to move on" and "How do I know when to give up hope?" I get the impression that some people use these expressions fairly interchangeably.<p>Maybe it's just my compulsion for precise thought, but I think it's a mistake to confuse the underlying concepts with each other. Here's what they mean to me...<p>"Letting Go" means recognizing and accepting that nothing I do is going to be enough to "fix" the situation: it's out of my control. Furthermore, it means decoupling my actions from my WS's actions, so that I don't automatically get jerked around every time something happens with her. (Notice that I did not say it means my emotions are decoupled. I have yet to hear of a healthy process for accomplishing that, unless it's the passage of time.)<p>"Moving On" means assessing my values and goals and taking pro-active steps to redefine my life in the absence of my WS. It means taking a good hard look at reality, and accepting both the limitations and the risks to be found there.<p>"Giving Up" means deciding that even if my WS eventually faces her demons and seeks reconciliation, I will do nothing to keep my door open to her. It opens the possibility of a relationship with someone new, with implied acceptance of the risk that some day I may be forced to choose between my WS and that new SO.<p>As for me, I have "let go", I am "moving on", and I have no intention of ever "giving up". When is it time to give up hope? Pick one: (1) when you decide to do so, or (2) "while there's life, there's hope."

As always, very interesting thoughts Gnome.<p>I feel that I have "Given up", "Let Go", & "Moved On", in that order.<p>My question for you is that, like in your case, is it possible to have a "healthy" relationship with another without doing all three first.<p>To me this is like the greiving process and if a step is left out then sometimes you're forced to start at the beginning again.<p>There's my pennies worth.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LostHusband:
<strong>My question for you is that, like in your case, is it possible to have a "healthy" relationship with another without doing all three first.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I believe the answer is "no".

Givin' up, lettin' go and movin' on...<p>If it weren't so close to the end of the school year, this tired teacher would be writing some twangy country music lyrics...hee hee hee<p>Let's see, I've done all three and added a fourth..."found someone new (and better)"<p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Lisa

Great definations!! I love em.<p>I am letting go and trying to move on but have not given up. <p>Dave

Gnome,<p>My curiousity is getting the best of me, Why won't you "give up", allowing yourself to truly "let go" and really set the stage for you to "move on"?

So, Bill, you think "giving up" is a prerequisite to "letting go" and "moving on"? Why is that?<p>I won't give up because doing so would cost me too much.<p>I believe in God. I believe in miracles. I believe in love. And foolish as it may seem, I also believe in my wife.<p>I know her, you see.<p>If there is anyone with the strength of will to face and conquer her demons, it is my wife. Yes, I realize that also means she has the strength of will to keep running no matter what the cost to herself. But once again, I know her. I know the deeply-held values she has betrayed. I know her longing to be loved, despite the difficulty she had in believing she could be loved. I know the tenderness of her heart. And so I know that if she ever stops running long enough to let her heart catch up, she will listen to it.<p>It's a big 'if', I know. For the purposes of risk assessment I pretend that the odds of her coming back to me are 50%, but in reality I have no way to calculate the odds. Aside from my wife's exhibition of a very conventional "fog" mentality, my situation differs markedly from the "norm" here in several significant ways.<p>First, I was a d***** good husband. Yes, I struggled with depression for years, but I managed to keep up with my responsibilities even so. I listened to my wife very carefully, I tried hard to understand her wants and needs, and I did everything I could within the limits of my understanding and financial resources to meet those wants and needs. I believed very strongly in the importance of trust, and I was very conscientious about earning it: my wife never heard me tell a lie. In short, I come with very little "baggage" where my wife is concerned, and I have no concern about whether I would compare favorably with any OM that might (or might already have) come along.<p>Second, to my knowledge there has not been an OM (or an OW if we want to cover all possible bases). (I realize I could be wrong about this, but I have a pretty solid basis for my belief.) Unfortunately, I do not know whether this is good or bad for my wife's prognosis. If there were an OM, there is every reason to expect that the romantic shine would eventually wear off through the exigencies of daily interaction, with the result that my wife might be induced to reassess her choices. On the other hand, without an OP the only barriers to reconciliation are the internal walls that my wife has erected around herself.<p>Third, those walls were built very quickly, and my wife made them very high and very thick. The manner in which my wife excised me from her life is remarkable for both its ruthlessness and its thoroughness. (I have heard of more extreme cases, but those are the type that often make the national media.) This (along with other evidence) suggests that my wife was (and is) under very severe psychological stress. And of course, the greater the stress, the more likely that something is eventually going to give - although predicting the direction is a whole 'nother matter...<p>So, the bottom line is that I can't know what's going to happen, but I am pretty confident about the two most likely scenarios: either my wife will live out the rest of her life in increasing misery, or she will try to come back to me. I can't do anything about the former possibility, but I can do something about the latter: I can leave the door open.<p>I can remain faithful. I can remain true to my vows, made before God and many witnesses. I can refuse to repudiate my love for my wife, choosing instead to exemplify the Christian values in which I have long placed my trust, and which have yet to fail me. I can be the kind of man I respect, however much others may call me a fool and accuse me of playing the martyr.<p>Or, I can turn my back on everything I believe in, so that I can...uh...do what? What would I gain by doing that? The prospect of a rich and fulfilling life? Heh. I've already managed to overextend myself by trying to chase too many dreams. What else? The possibility of a new and "better" relationship with another woman? Well OK, I'll grant you that (and call it arrogance, but I don't believe in predestined soulmates and I don't think I would have any trouble finding a "suitable" partner). All I can say is, it's not worth it. Not to me.<p>Now are you sorry you asked, Bill? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I should probably add that if I were completely honest with myself, I can't know what I might now be thinking or feeling if I were to have discovered that my wife was not the person she had pretended to be all those years of our relationship. If I were to have found myself in the middle of some of the other stories here, I suspect I would be much less clear about what was right for me.<p>I am glad that I am only required to make decisions about what to do with my life.

Gnome,
Your definition of letting go, moving on and giving up are very accurate and well stated. <p>I have let go and I'm moving on. I have also set my boundry to end my sick cycle of a marriage. I don't feel that I'm giving up. There just comes a time when enough is enough. For some it takes a month, others like myself, years to make a stand. Divorce goes against everything I believe in also, but so does prolonged suffering.

Gnome -
Reading your post was very interesting to me. I'm struggling with my husband and know that he is very depressed, but he would never admit it or get meds and help for it (that ego of his) - what made you realize you were depressed? I noted that you stated you were depressed for years. My husband is and has been that way for a few years now too. Very angry, very bitter, very depressed about money (if he can't buy all his "wants" with cash he's depressed) and it just tends to run into our family life day after day. I am at the end of my rope, but want to save my family .. its interesting that you stated you were depressed for years. Were you getting help on your own?

Gnome,<p>You are not alone. I, too, know that my WW disregarded all of her beliefs, and is paying dearly for them in her own heart and mind.<p>Although I may let go and move on, I will never give up.<p>My vows were and are my word, and I truly believe that she is of the same character deep down also.<p>But somehow, somewhere, and sometime a force that she could not overcome destroyed her.<p>I have faith "she" will return. Maybe not in my lifetime.<p>But if she is given the time, I truly believe she will.<p>
HCII

Interesting thoughts GdP. I've never thought of letting go, moving on, and giving up as interchangable. I started with letting go. I have my theories on what's going on with my H mentally, but since he refuses to seek treatment, it's mostly speculation on my part. He's in his mid-50's now and whatever condition(s) he has is getting worse. I started by letting of responsibilities that belonged to him. I shouldered things for both of us, doing neither of us any favors in the long run. That helped some, but not much. I began to let go of the expectation that I could have a fully functional marriage with my H in his current state. When I gave him the choice of keeping his behavior or keeping our marriage, he chose his behavior. In three months of separation, the effort he's put into reconciliation is zero. <p>I have an additional stage that I would characterize as "pulling myself up by the bootstraps." The effects of my marriage have taken a toll on me, to the point where my sense of self worth was a barely glowing ember on the verge of being extinguished. As I get back on my feet, I find myself visualizing a future without my H. I'm still dusting myself off. One of these days I'll look in the mirror and say "this is the best I can do with my life at this time." I think I'll be officially in the "moving on" stage when that day comes. <p>I notice in a lot of threads that WS's tend to suddenly come out of their fog when their radar senses the onset of their BS's "moving on." In that sense, I still have hope that my H will acknowledge his need for professional help (and follow through with long term treatment). He's a stubborn cuss, and I don't know if that day will ever come. Even if the day does come that he commits to therapy, I don't know if I'll have my door open or not. He's in a deep dark place with a long road to travel just to reach level ground. I see a happy healthy marriage as a place on a hill. Right now he's not interested in travelling the distance. Should he ever develop that interest, I question whether he's capable of travelling the distance. I doubt that I'll ever give up hope that he can travel that distance. On the other hand, I don't see myself leaving the door open to him indefinitely either. I guess I see a difference between "holding hope for us" and "holding hope for him." I don't have hope for "us" anymore, but I pray every day that his heart will soften and that he might find peace within this lifetime. <p>I see my sequence as: letting go first, giving up second, and moving on is in the works. I'm so accustomed to my H putting zero effort into this marriage. I'm not sure what I would do if he ever tried! I guess I do have an open door of sorts. The open door resides on level ground. He'd have to climb out of a deep dark pit to reach that level ground. <p>Thanks for this thread gdp. I didn't have a good handle on my open door! I have a better grip on it now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Gnome,<p>I apologize for jumping in and I usually only post on the prayer request board, but I had to say a few things. You said:<p>I believe in God. I believe in miracles. I believe in love. And foolish as it may seem, I also believe in my wife.<p>I am in total agreement with you on this. I am moving on but I am moving on and into a closer relationship with God. And I do believe that in time God will bring my husband home. I have been going through this for two years and will continue until God says to stop and I don't think he will, his word says He hates Divorce, so I know standing and believing for the restoration of my marriage is what he wants me to do.<p>I can remain faithful. I can remain true to my vows, made before God and many witnesses. I can refuse to repudiate my love for my wife, choosing instead to exemplify the Christian values in which I have long placed my trust, and which have yet to fail me. I can be the kind of man I respect, however much others may call me a fool and accuse me of playing the martyr.<p>Unfortunately we won't get everyone to agree with what we are doing, but we do have God on our side, so we can't lose as long as we are obedient to his word. <p>Morriggs

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cndy:
<strong>...what made you realize you were depressed? ...its interesting that you stated you were depressed for years. Were you getting help on your own?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There's not much I can say about how I realized I was depressed. Being naturally introspective, I figured out pretty quickly that something was wrong. To be honest, I don't remember where the idea that I might be depressed came from - it may have been my wife who suggested it. But in any case, I went to the library and checked out a bunch of books. It all fit.<p>My depression was considered "moderate". (I can't imagine what "severe" depression must be like. As much pain as my wife's desertion has brought me, I would still rather feel that pain than go through depression again. Indeed, I take an almost masochistic delight in being able to feel the pain.) I did see a therapist about my depression and he offered me medication, but despite a likely hereditary element there was good reason to believe that my depression was largely situational. With my therapist's approval, I stuck with cognitive therapy, afraid that drugs would interfere with my awareness of what I was dealing with. I will never know whether that was the "right" decision, but I believe that both my temperament and my background suited me well for cognitive therapy, and the skills I developed have served me better in the aftermath of my wife's desertion than if I had chosen drug therapy instead. (On the other hand, a combination of cognitive and drug therapy might have been even more effective. As I said, I will never know.)<p>Unfortunately, it took me years to discover exactly what it was that I was using depression to hide from. Once I finally figured it out (probably because circumstances changed to the point that I could hardly avoid seeing it), I was able to face my fear and gain control over my depressive tendencies. (I was also experimenting with St. John's Wort there toward the end, but I was never sure whether it made any real difference.)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lonesome heart:
<strong>...I doubt that I'll ever give up hope that he can travel that distance. I don't see myself leaving the door open to him indefinitely either. I guess I see a difference between "holding hope for us" and "holding hope for him." I don't have hope for "us" anymore, but I pray every day that his heart will soften and that he might find peace within this lifetime.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I can appreciate the distinction.<p>By the way, I was careful to define "giving up" not as actually closing the door, but just as not holding it open. The door can still remain open even after we have given up.<p>I appreciate everyone's chiming in here. (I don't understand why you are apologizing, Morriggs.) For what it's worth, it is getting close to two years now since my wife deserted me, and if I am allowed to discount the trauma of the first two months I think it is accurate to say that my level of pain has not diminished at all, but my level of peace has increased.